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Re: Finding Nembo

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  • Ken Augustine
    Is the primary drive straight cut ?   If it is angle cut, either the crank or driven gear will have increased load but if it is angle cut, there already must
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 1, 2011
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      Is the primary drive straight cut ?   If it is angle cut, either the crank or driven gear will have increased load but if it is angle cut, there already must be some thrust resolution on each shaft.   
      I'd also put additional drains in the cam cover.

      KA


      From: Ian <iwd@...>
      To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 8:32 PM
      Subject: Re: Finding Nembo

       

      > >Many inline and vee aero engines are of inverted configuration.

      Since we're on the subject..........

      I want to run a Honda Blackbird motor on it's end (alternator up),
      I'm going to extend the clutch cover and use that as the sump.
      I'm also putting some thrust plates on the crank webs and a
      tensioner pad on the oil pump drive chain ( runs surprisingly
      loose on the std Blackbird ), other than that, I'm pretty confident
      that it will do the job.

      Does anyone have any suggestions / experiences to share ?
      Some 4 stroke out board motors are a straight 4 standing on
      their end, does anyone have any experience with these ? Any
      problems ?

      Cheers IAN

      See www.drysdalev8.com for :
      - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
      - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
      - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
      - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler



    • Ian
      ... Primary is straight cut, I actually don t know of any of the Japanese 4 cyl engines that use helical primaries these days. ... Token at best, one web is a
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 1, 2011
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        >Is the primary drive straight cut ?


        Primary is straight cut, I actually don't know of any of the
        Japanese 4 cyl engines that use helical primaries these days.


        >already must be some thrust resolution on each shaft.


        Token at best, one web is a bit wider and then only in the top
        1/2 of the cases. I am tempted to just see how it goes on the
        dyno ( I have an industrial right angle drive gearbox ), but I
        might bite the bullet and put a couple of pieces of flat bearing
        material in there.


        >I'd also put additional drains in the cam cover.


        Cam chain tunnel will be at the bottom, so that's taken care of.
        I have one suggestion that the cam buckets won't get enough
        oil, I'll look into that a bit closer.


        Cheers IAN


        See www.drysdalev8.com for :
        - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
        - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
        - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
        - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler
      • Danny Whitfield
        ... I have wondered why 4s are all wet sumpers? I bet that if you mount this engine right side up, it will run with a lot less oil drag than any other 4 that
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 1, 2011
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          On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 6:55 PM, Ian <iwd@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > >Is the primary drive straight cut ?
          >
          > Primary is straight cut, I actually don't know of any of the
          > Japanese 4 cyl engines that use helical primaries these days.
          >
          > >already must be some thrust resolution on each shaft.
          >
          > Token at best, one web is a bit wider and then only in the top
          > 1/2 of the cases. I am tempted to just see how it goes on the
          > dyno ( I have an industrial right angle drive gearbox ), but I
          > might bite the bullet and put a couple of pieces of flat bearing
          > material in there.
          >
          > >I'd also put additional drains in the cam cover.
          >
          > Cam chain tunnel will be at the bottom, so that's taken care of.
          > I have one suggestion that the cam buckets won't get enough
          > oil, I'll look into that a bit closer.
          >
          > Cheers IAN


          I have wondered why 4s are all wet sumpers? I bet that if you mount
          this engine right side up, it will run with a lot less oil drag than
          any other 4 that I am aware of.

          Are there any other dry sump 4s??

          Dan W
        • Ken Augustine
          If you put a   SCRATCH   across to the upper end of the head side of the top cam journal you will get plenty of oil to the top cam bucket.   The single
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 1, 2011
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            If you put a   SCRATCH   across to the upper end of the head side of the top cam journal you will get plenty of oil to the top cam bucket.   The single cam Honda 750/4 had a dry sump and a field energized alternator but I'd bet both were dropped for cost cutting reasons.
            Ken A

            > I have one suggestion that the cam buckets won't get enough
            > oil, I'll look into that a bit closer.
            >
            > Cheers IAN

            I have wondered why 4s are all wet sumpers? I bet that if you mount
            this engine right side up, it will run with a lot less oil drag than
            any other 4 that I am aware of.

            Are there any other dry sump 4s??

            Dan W


          • Ian
            ... No current models that I am aware of, as Ken mentioned, the early K series Honda 4 s were, but none in the last 20 years that I can think of. Cheers
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 1, 2011
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              >Are there any other dry sump 4s??


              No current models that I am aware of, as Ken mentioned, the early
              K series Honda 4's were, but none in the last 20 years that I can
              think of.


              Cheers IAN


              See www.drysdalev8.com for :
              - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
              - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
              - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
              - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler
            • Rick Hammond
              Ian, Just a twin but the BMW 800 has a semi-dry sump. http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/semi-dry-sump-lubrication Oil circulation with semi-dry sump
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 2, 2011
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                Ian,
                Just a twin but the BMW 800 has a 'semi-dry' sump.
                http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/semi-dry-sump-lubrication

                "Oil circulation with semi-dry sump lubrication.  The oil circulation also has a number of special technical features which go beyond what is standard in this category of motorcycle.  In order to minimize splash losses, the F 800 engine series has a semi-dry sump lubrication system.  Any oil escaping from the main bearings of the crank drive runs into the sealed off shaft of the compensation system. 

                An oil pump extracts the lubricant from here and distributes it to the oil jets in the gearbox.  Oil escaping from the gearbox via gaps in the crankcase is collected together with the oil escaping from the cylinder head via the chain shaft in the remaining space of the crankshaft casing around the rod shaft.  This space is thus used as an integrated oil tank.  A second pump feeds all bearings from this reservoir."
                http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-motorcycles/bmw-f-800-r/#2

                They have that underslung balance rod (a la supermono) that they wanted to keep out of the oil to reduce splashing..
                Also has an underside that leaves room for the exhaust along one side..  Can't do that with a head.. ;-)
                Cheers,
                Rick


                On 02/06/2011 00:37, Ian wrote:  


                >Are there any other dry sump 4s??

                No current models that I am aware of, as Ken mentioned, the early
                K series Honda 4's were, but none in the last 20 years that I can
                think of.

                Cheers IAN

                See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler


              • John Mead
                Royal Enfield had an integrated oil tank for years.  I think the new ones from India still have this feature. John Mead ... From: Rick Hammond
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 2, 2011
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                  Royal Enfield had an integrated oil tank for years.  I think the new ones from India still have this feature.

                  John Mead

                  --- On Thu, 6/2/11, Rick Hammond <r.hammond@...> wrote:

                  From: Rick Hammond <r.hammond@...>
                  Subject: Re: Finding Nembo / dry sump
                  To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, June 2, 2011, 10:21 AM



                  Ian,
                  Just a twin but the BMW 800 has a 'semi-dry' sump.
                  http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/semi-dry-sump-lubrication

                  "Oil circulation with semi-dry sump lubrication.  The oil circulation also has a number of special technical features which go beyond what is standard in this category of motorcycle.  In order to minimize splash losses, the F 800 engine series has a semi-dry sump lubrication system.  Any oil escaping from the main bearings of the crank drive runs into the sealed off shaft of the compensation system. 

                  An oil pump extracts the lubricant from here and distributes it to the oil jets in the gearbox.  Oil escaping from the gearbox via gaps in the crankcase is collected together with the oil escaping from the cylinder head via the chain shaft in the remaining space of the crankshaft casing around the rod shaft.  This space is thus used as an integrated oil tank.  A second pump feeds all bearings from this reservoir."
                  http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-motorcycles/bmw-f-800-r/#2

                  They have that underslung balance rod (a la supermono) that they wanted to keep out of the oil to reduce splashing..
                  Also has an underside that leaves room for the exhaust along one side..  Can't do that with a head.. ;-)
                  Cheers,
                  Rick


                  On 02/06/2011 00:37, Ian wrote:
                   


                  >Are there any other dry sump 4s??

                  No current models that I am aware of, as Ken mentioned, the early
                  K series Honda 4's were, but none in the last 20 years that I can
                  think of.

                  Cheers IAN

                  See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                  - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                  - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                  - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                  - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler




                • Rick Hammond
                  Yup, Didn t mention it but the BMW article also mentions the Kawi 600.. Ha! Soon we will be talking OIF and the kids will be confused trying to use it in
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 2, 2011
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                    Yup,
                    Didn't mention it but the BMW article also mentions the Kawi 600..
                    Ha!  Soon we will be talking OIF and the kids will be confused trying to use it in texting..
                    Cheers,
                    Rick

                    On 02/06/2011 10:35, John Mead wrote:
                     

                    Royal Enfield had an integrated oil tank for years.  I think the new ones from India still have this feature.

                    John Mead

                    --- On Thu, 6/2/11, Rick Hammond <r.hammond@...> wrote:

                    From: Rick Hammond <r.hammond@...>
                    Subject: Re: Finding Nembo / dry sump
                    To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, June 2, 2011, 10:21 AM



                    Ian,
                    Just a twin but the BMW 800 has a 'semi-dry' sump.
                    http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/semi-dry-sump-lubrication

                    "Oil circulation with semi-dry sump lubrication.  The oil circulation also has a number of special technical features which go beyond what is standard in this category of motorcycle.  In order to minimize splash losses, the F 800 engine series has a semi-dry sump lubrication system.  Any oil escaping from the main bearings of the crank drive runs into the sealed off shaft of the compensation system. 

                    An oil pump extracts the lubricant from here and distributes it to the oil jets in the gearbox.  Oil escaping from the gearbox via gaps in the crankcase is collected together with the oil escaping from the cylinder head via the chain shaft in the remaining space of the crankshaft casing around the rod shaft.  This space is thus used as an integrated oil tank.  A second pump feeds all bearings from this reservoir."
                    http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-motorcycles/bmw-f-800-r/#2

                    They have that underslung balance rod (a la supermono) that they wanted to keep out of the oil to reduce splashing..
                    Also has an underside that leaves room for the exhaust along one side..  Can't do that with a head.. ;-)
                    Cheers,
                    Rick


                    On 02/06/2011 00:37, Ian wrote:
                     


                    >Are there any other dry sump 4s??

                    No current models that I am aware of, as Ken mentioned, the early
                    K series Honda 4's were, but none in the last 20 years that I can
                    think of.

                    Cheers IAN

                    See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                    - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                    - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                    - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                    - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler





                  • Ian
                    ... New Enfields from India were unchanged from the 50 s originals until recently, when they went to unit construction and starter motor. The had the
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 2, 2011
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                      >Royal Enfield had an integrated oil tank for years. I think the new
                      >ones from India still have this feature.


                      "New" Enfields from India were unchanged from the '50's originals
                      until recently, when they went to unit construction and starter
                      motor. The had the "semi-dry / integral tank" crankcases up
                      until this "unit" engine and i think it continues this feature on too.

                      I used this "semi-dry / integral tank" design on the Carberry Enfield
                      twin, which worked well.


                      Cheers IAN


                      See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                      - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                      - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                      - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                      - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler
                    • djtcz2001
                      ... On my My CZ400 that drain was useful more than once when relatively small quantities of various liquids caused problems - flooding from not turning off the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 4, 2011
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                        --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Ken Augustine <kineticanalysis@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Jawa and CZ engines had drains in the crankcases for similar hydraulic problem relief.  
                        >
                        > ________________________________

                        On my My CZ400 that drain was useful more than once when relatively small quantities of various liquids caused problems - flooding from not turning off the petcocks, or playing(falling) in the water.

                        A relatively late model magazine included that drain specifically on ins a feature claiming to be list of the dumbest ideas ever. I think he was worried about the possibiity of it falling out. I rank it along with the prepaid $10 gas card my grandma gave me "for emergencies" when I was 18 and heading off to college. More of a kindly precaution, anticipating the inevitable, and free of lecturing and nagging.

                        Dan T
                      • Ken Augustine
                        As a rookie mechanic, I was set onto getting a 100cc Bultaco Lobito to run which had been sitting for several years with a leaky petcock.   I was told to
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 5, 2011
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                          As a rookie mechanic, I was set onto getting a 100cc Bultaco Lobito to run which had been sitting for several years with a leaky petcock.   I was told to drain the premixed fuel from the fuel tank, mix up some fresh fuel, tickle the carb, give it a kick and see what happened.  Kicking it 20 times produced nothing so I checked the spark plug which was, of course carbon and oil fouled.   Replacing the spark plug allowed the engine to pop   ONCE   then wet foul with oily slime.   An hour of one pop, pull the plug, blow it off with compressed air, replace the plug and repeat finally yielded two pops before the fouling, blowing and repeat.   At that point, I realized that the slime drowning the spark plug was   VERY   oily and not just freshly mixed fuel from the repeated tickling but was the residue from whatever fuel had leaked past the petcock and float valve, gone down into the crankcase and from which most of the light fuel fractions had evaporated.   I removed the carb and spark plug, filled the crankcase with fresh pre mixed fuel and sloshed it through with the kick starter as best I could layed the bike over on its side and rotated the engine with the kick starter until it seemed about as dry as it was going to get.   I then reassembled everything and got a three pop, R&R cycle before wet fouling the spark plug.   At that point, I realized that any more fuel the carb may have been supplying was simply making things worse so I removed it.   Eventually I got it to run with a four pop/drown and a five pop/drown cycle and took it outside the shop as the other mechanics were complaining about the gas and oil fumes.   When I finally got it to run continuously, it ran for five minutes with no carb at all, smoking up the entire lot while it slogged along at possibly 800 rpm until it cleaned out, revved up to what must have been 8000 rpm for a few seconds then ran out of combustible hydrocarbon and quit.   Reinstalling the carb, tickling it and kicking it once to get it to run very normally completed the job and somehow the thing hadn't hurt itself by over revving and certainly, the engine bearings hadn't rusted with all that oil on them.   However, a crankcase drain certainly would have helped save a bunch of time.

                          Ken A

                          From: djtcz2001 <djtcz@...>
                          To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 2:34 PM
                          Subject: Re: Finding Nembo

                           

                          --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Ken Augustine <kineticanalysis@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Jawa and CZ engines had drains in the crankcases for similar hydraulic problem relief.  
                          >
                          > ________________________________

                          On my My CZ400 that drain was useful more than once when relatively small quantities of various liquids caused problems - flooding from not turning off the petcocks, or playing(falling) in the water.

                          A relatively late model magazine included that drain specifically on ins a feature claiming to be list of the dumbest ideas ever. I think he was worried about the possibiity of it falling out. I rank it along with the prepaid $10 gas card my grandma gave me "for emergencies" when I was 18 and heading off to college. More of a kindly precaution, anticipating the inevitable, and free of lecturing and nagging.

                          Dan T



                        • mike lowe
                          No such problems with the old 125&175 Jawas I fettle with as there intake port goes uphill at 45 degrees for 65 mm. Which is just as well because the Jikov
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 5, 2011
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                            No such problems with the old 125&175 Jawas I fettle with as there intake port goes uphill at 45 degrees for 65 mm. Which is just as well because the Jikov carbs have a hopelessly primitive float set up. Basically a ball on a pointy stick. Everything drains out the front of the carb, and every thing has, on the odd occasion. 
                               I don't know if Jawa designed the motor this way for esthetic or practical reasons or both but it eliminates the flooding problem completely. Another "tick" in the reliability column for old Jawa.


                            On 06/06/2011, at 5:09 AM, Ken Augustine wrote:


                            As a rookie mechanic, I was set onto getting a 100cc Bultaco Lobito to run which had been sitting for several years with a leaky petcock.   I was told to drain the premixed fuel from the fuel tank, mix up some fresh fuel, tickle the carb, give it a kick and see what happened.  Kicking it 20 times produced nothing so I checked the spark plug which was, of course carbon and oil fouled.   Replacing the spark plug allowed the engine to pop   ONCE   then wet foul with oily slime.   An hour of one pop, pull the plug, blow it off with compressed air, replace the plug and repeat finally yielded two pops before the fouling, blowing and repeat.   At that point, I realized that the slime drowning the spark plug was   VERY   oily and not just freshly mixed fuel from the repeated tickling but was the residue from whatever fuel had leaked past the petcock and float valve, gone down into the crankcase and from which most of the light fuel fractions had evaporated.   I removed the carb and spark plug, filled the crankcase with fresh pre mixed fuel and sloshed it through with the kick starter as best I could layed the bike over on its side and rotated the engine with the kick starter until it seemed about as dry as it was going to get.   I then reassembled everything and got a three pop, R&R cycle before wet fouling the spark plug.   At that point, I realized that any more fuel the carb may have been supplying was simply making things worse so I removed it.   Eventually I got it to run with a four pop/drown and a five pop/drown cycle and took it outside the shop as the other mechanics were complaining about the gas and oil fumes.   When I finally got it to run continuously, it ran for five minutes with no carb at all, smoking up the entire lot while it slogged along at possibly 800 rpm until it cleaned out, revved up to what must have been 8000 rpm for a few seconds then ran out of combustible hydrocarbon and quit.   Reinstalling the carb, tickling it and kicking it once to get it to run very normally completed the job and somehow the thing hadn't hurt itself by over revving and certainly, the engine bearings hadn't rusted with all that oil on them.   However, a crankcase drain certainly would have helped save a bunch of time.

                            Ken A

                            From: djtcz2001 <djtcz@...>
                            To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 2:34 PM
                            Subject: Re: Finding Nembo

                             

                            --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Ken Augustine <kineticanalysis@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Jawa and CZ engines had drains in the crankcases for similar hydraulic problem relief.   
                            > 
                            > ________________________________

                            On my My CZ400 that drain was useful more than once when relatively small quantities of various liquids caused problems - flooding from not turning off the petcocks, or playing(falling) in the water.

                            A relatively late model magazine included that drain specifically on ins a feature claiming to be list of the dumbest ideas ever. I think he was worried about the possibiity of it falling out. I rank it along with the prepaid $10 gas card my grandma gave me "for emergencies" when I was 18 and heading off to college. More of a kindly precaution, anticipating the inevitable, and free of lecturing and nagging.

                            Dan T





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