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Re: Rod material

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  • davidfallon441
    Hi John; I find Yamaha rods from $100-$145 (they should cost about $70). Carrillo quoted me at $278 and $303 with the two modifications I wanted. I had asked
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 1, 2008
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      Hi John;

      I find Yamaha rods from $100-$145 (they should cost about $70).
      Carrillo quoted me at $278 and $303 with the two modifications I
      wanted. I had asked Carrillo for a reduced thickness and a smaller SE
      bushing.

      David Fallon
      441


      --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, John Mead <john.mead@...> wrote:
      >
      > David,
      > I am a Carrillo dealer. What price have you gotten for a Carrillo
      rod? What does a new Yamaha rod go for?
      >
      > John Mead
      > --- On Fri, 10/31/08, davidfallon441 <davidinwa@...> wrote:
      >
      > > From: davidfallon441 <davidinwa@...>
      > > Subject: Rod material
      > > To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 12:14 PM
      > > I am interested in using a con rod from the Yamaha XT 500
      > > for another
      > > engine. With a few simple mods, it will work in my 350
      > > HD/Aermacchi.
      > > The Carrillo is expensive, so I wonder about the stock
      > > Yamaha rod.
      > > Is it forged or cast?
      > >
      > > Many thanks;
      > >
      > > David Fallon
      > > 441
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Narley1994
      David , I have a used Yam500 rod laying around which you are welcome to if you want.The SE wears out fairly fast under hard use and can t be rebushed.Thats
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 1, 2008
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        David ,
        I have a used Yam500 rod laying around which you are welcome to if you want.The SE
        wears out fairly fast under hard use and can't be rebushed.Thats why I use the Carillo
        which lasts longer and has a real bushing instead of the copper coating.
        Shawn



        --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "davidfallon441" <davidinwa@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi John;
        >
        > I find Yamaha rods from $100-$145 (they should cost about $70).
        > Carrillo quoted me at $278 and $303 with the two modifications I
        > wanted. I had asked Carrillo for a reduced thickness and a smaller SE
        > bushing.
        >
        > David Fallon
        > 441
        >
        >
        > --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, John Mead <john.mead@> wrote:
        > >
        > > David,
        > > I am a Carrillo dealer. What price have you gotten for a Carrillo
        > rod? What does a new Yamaha rod go for?
        > >
        > > John Mead
        > > --- On Fri, 10/31/08, davidfallon441 <davidinwa@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > From: davidfallon441 <davidinwa@>
        > > > Subject: Rod material
        > > > To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 12:14 PM
        > > > I am interested in using a con rod from the Yamaha XT 500
        > > > for another
        > > > engine. With a few simple mods, it will work in my 350
        > > > HD/Aermacchi.
        > > > The Carrillo is expensive, so I wonder about the stock
        > > > Yamaha rod.
        > > > Is it forged or cast?
        > > >
        > > > Many thanks;
        > > >
        > > > David Fallon
        > > > 441
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • gregsummerton
        David, These rods are strong and reliable for sure. Several of us have used them in racing engines over the years with no breakages. 14:1 CR road race engines
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 1, 2008
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          David,
          These rods are strong and reliable for sure.
          Several of us have used them in racing engines over the years with no
          breakages.
          14:1 CR road race engines and dirt track engines on methanol.
          The only problem I had was a SE failure that led to a momentary LE pin
          siezure in the piston while in a comfortable 2nd place on the last lap
          of an Australian Long Track Championship back in the '80s.

          The correct diagnosis for that was a soft piston pin. I found that the
          drag boys were having problems like that with their alky/nitro Jap
          fours at the time and they told me to just get the pin hard chromed.
          I did, and never had another SE problem.

          So don't be put off with the stories of LE failure.
          Sure, when it eventually does wear out you'll have to replace the rod,
          but I never had that problem, in fact, on the alky TT500 Yamaha each
          season I'd pull down the crank to check the big end and rod and find
          them okay and eventually decided to replace the rod and pin each 2-3
          busy seasons as insurance, the cost was not prohibitive compared to a
          blow up.

          I built a bored and stroked version of the TT (90x94) for the then top
          level Unlimited class and it was way faster than the 500 Jawas and
          Weslakes, only beaten by the top guys on 600 versions of those engines.
          The Yam TTs were used hard on mile long tracks as well as short circuit
          racing.

          In fact the wide BE bearing the TT500 used was overkill. The later
          TT600 was (I think) 5mm narrower and was perfectly adequate for smaller
          machines. My '35 250 MOV Velocette racer had a TT600 rod and big end
          fitted by the famous Les Diener back in the '80s and it is still in
          good condition.

          TT/XT500s used a 34mm crankpin, as did the early 600s, but they changed
          to 35mm pins and bearings a bit later.
          The BE bearings are also brilliant and 'never' fail unless oil is never
          changed, or runs out.
          Out of interest, the XT/TT 350/250 models used a 38mm pin and bearing
          and they are good, very good.

          Those Yam rods are STRONG, and value for money....and the BE bearings
          are as good as you'll buy, IMHO.
          Cheers,
          Greg

          --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "davidfallon441" <davidinwa@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I am interested in using a con rod from the Yamaha XT 500 for another
          > engine. With a few simple mods, it will work in my 350 HD/Aermacchi.
          > The Carrillo is expensive, so I wonder about the stock Yamaha rod.
          > Is it forged or cast?
          >
          > Many thanks;
          >
          > David Fallon
          > 441
          >
        • gregsummerton
          Further to my last post: My Velo rod has a bush fitted to suit the smaller LE pin. Les also narrowed the rod to suit the later TT600 bearing and the smaller
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 1, 2008
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            Further to my last post:
            My Velo rod has a bush fitted to suit the smaller LE pin.
            Les also narrowed the rod to suit the later TT600 bearing and the
            smaller piston, he didn't use the 600 rod as the longer 500 rod
            suited him better.
            Greg


            --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "davidfallon441" <davidinwa@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hi John;
            >
            > I find Yamaha rods from $100-$145 (they should cost about $70).
            > Carrillo quoted me at $278 and $303 with the two modifications I
            > wanted. I had asked Carrillo for a reduced thickness and a smaller
            SE
            > bushing.
            >
            > David Fallon
            > 441
            >
          • Eldert Rademaker
            I use several Yamaha rods to and they never fail i use the XT 500 145 mm long rod (BE is 34 x 42 and 24 mm wide and the early TT 600 is 135.5 mm long ( be is
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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              I use several Yamaha rods to and they never fail
              i use the XT 500 145 mm long rod (BE is 34 x 42 and 24 mm wide
              and the early TT 600 is 135.5 mm long ( be is 34 x 42 and 20 mm wide )
              another rod that will fit the same bigend pin is a Prox rod for a
              79 /81 XL XR Honda . it is 141 mm long and be is 34 x 42 x 20 SE is
              21 mm

              Eldert


              .
              > In fact the wide BE bearing the TT500 used was overkill. The later
              > TT600 was (I think) 5mm narrower and was perfectly adequate for
              smaller
              > machines. My '35 250 MOV Velocette racer had a TT600 rod and big end
              > fitted by the famous Les Diener back in the '80s and it is still in
              > good condition.
              >
              > TT/XT500s used a 34mm crankpin, as did the early 600s, but they
              changed
              > to 35mm pins and bearings a bit later.
              > The BE bearings are also brilliant and 'never' fail unless oil is
              never
            • davidfallon441
              Thanks Eldert and Greg, good testimony on the toughness of the Yamaha rods. Any advise on the hardness, depth, and method to harden the pin? I might have to
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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                Thanks Eldert and Greg, good testimony on the toughness of the Yamaha
                rods.

                Any advise on the hardness, depth, and method to harden the pin? I
                might have to make a stepped pin to work with the 30mm holes in the
                flywheels; either that or use a bearing race installed over the 30mm
                pin. I have found a bearing race that is 30mm x 35mm that I could
                have ground to 34mm OD. The other option is to use 6mm rollers, but I
                have not found a bearing retainer yet. The original rollers for the
                BE are .250inch. I find the use of inch size rollers on an Italian
                design to be interesting, especially as this design originated in the
                50s.

                David Fallon
                441


                --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "Eldert Rademaker" <radducs@...> wrote:
                >
                > I use several Yamaha rods to and they never fail
                > i use the XT 500 145 mm long rod (BE is 34 x 42 and 24 mm wide
                > and the early TT 600 is 135.5 mm long ( be is 34 x 42 and 20 mm wide )
                > another rod that will fit the same bigend pin is a Prox rod for a
                > 79 /81 XL XR Honda . it is 141 mm long and be is 34 x 42 x 20 SE is
                > 21 mm
                >
                > Eldert
                >
                >
                > .
                > > In fact the wide BE bearing the TT500 used was overkill. The later
                > > TT600 was (I think) 5mm narrower and was perfectly adequate for
                > smaller
                > > machines. My '35 250 MOV Velocette racer had a TT600 rod and big end
                > > fitted by the famous Les Diener back in the '80s and it is still in
                > > good condition.
                > >
                > > TT/XT500s used a 34mm crankpin, as did the early 600s, but they
                > changed
                > > to 35mm pins and bearings a bit later.
                > > The BE bearings are also brilliant and 'never' fail unless oil is
                > never
                >
              • Ian
                ... I had a mate who raced a Speed-car I think they were called ( 2.5 litre speedway car ), not popular in my state, so I don t know that much about them.
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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                  >Thanks Eldert and Greg, good testimony on the toughness of the Yamaha
                  >rods.


                  I had a mate who raced a "Speed-car" I think they were called
                  ( 2.5 litre speedway car ), not popular in my state, so I don't
                  know that much about them. Anyway, he tried all sorts of
                  aftermarket race rods in his Nissan 4 cylinder engine and ended
                  up using Yamaha XV550 rods. Strange but true, they were the
                  only rods he found that he could get a full season out of.


                  >Any advise on the hardness, depth, and method to harden the pin?



                  58-62 HRC, 1.00mm case minimum and case harden. ( Gas
                  furnace, cyanide bath, whatever )



                  Cheers IAN


                  See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                  - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                  - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                  - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                  - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler


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                • gregsummerton
                  Ian answered your hardening question, I use EN36A or EN39B (slightly stronger) but I don t know what that translates to in readily available steel in your neck
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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                    Ian answered your hardening question, I use EN36A or EN39B (slightly
                    stronger) but I don't know what that translates to in readily
                    available steel in your neck of the woods.

                    Not sure I'd want to muck around grinding down an off shelf bearing
                    inner for a big end, especially 1 mm. Big ends have enormously
                    difficult conditions under which to operate and the best quality non-
                    big end designed bearings simply cannot cope.
                    If you want reliability, get a pin made by someone who knows what
                    they are doing or if you are moderately handy with a lathe, rough it
                    out, get it hardened and get some one to grind finish it for you. But
                    make sure you specify the grinding carefully.

                    Nothing wrong with a stepped pin either, as long as you put a
                    generous rad on the step and make sure you have a slightly bigger rad
                    on the hole edge, something that others have failed to remember!

                    It is a mental pain when changing an old large roller diameter design
                    over to smaller modern needle roller bearings, you end up with either
                    a big step in the pin, which in itself is no problem, or a thick rod
                    sleeve, if you sleeve the original rod down to size.

                    Either way you will have a slightly heavier big end and need to
                    rebalance it. It wont be much, but it LOOKS bad compared to the
                    original when you look at the heavier pin or sleeve.
                    But when you think about the total metal in the parts, it isn't much
                    different, it just looks bad.

                    I usualy opt for the larger pin solution and have often ground out
                    the flywheel holes to remove the need for a stepped pin because it
                    results in a stronger pin. When the original is on the small side it
                    makes sense, I call it insurance..lol
                    (and I don't like stepped pins on principle...lol...but they are
                    perfectly okay when radiused correctly, it's just a personal thing)

                    And for anyone reading this that might be tempted to go this route,
                    just be aware that normal every day needle roller bearings from your
                    local bearing supplier are definitely not adequate for use in big
                    ends in any moderately useful engine. Full stop!

                    As far as I am aware, INA were the first to supply good quality
                    needle roller bearings for big end service. If not the first, they
                    certainly were/are the best known by reputation, here in Oz at least.

                    Some time in the past there was a commercial tie-up between INA and a
                    Japanese bearing manufacturer. Koyo, I think it was, but could be
                    wrong. That commercial arrangment was for, or led to, the transfer of
                    the INA technology to the Japanese bearing manufacturers.
                    I believe the commercial tie ceased some time ago and now the
                    Japanese supply bearings are at least the equal of the famous INA big
                    end needle rollers.

                    It is interesting to note that some Japanese motorcycle big end
                    bearing cages are copper plated while others are silver plated.
                    General opinion that I've gathered is that there is little to
                    differentiate them, other than the ritzy appearance of the silver
                    items. But that is all just opinion.

                    Cheers,
                    Greg


                    --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "davidfallon441" <davidinwa@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks Eldert and Greg, good testimony on the toughness of the
                    Yamaha
                    > rods.
                    >
                    > Any advise on the hardness, depth, and method to harden the pin? I
                    > might have to make a stepped pin to work with the 30mm holes in the
                    > flywheels; either that or use a bearing race installed over the 30mm
                    > pin. I have found a bearing race that is 30mm x 35mm that I could
                    > have ground to 34mm OD. The other option is to use 6mm rollers,
                    but I
                    > have not found a bearing retainer yet. The original rollers for the
                    > BE are .250inch. I find the use of inch size rollers on an Italian
                    > design to be interesting, especially as this design originated in
                    the
                    > 50s.
                    >
                    > David Fallon
                    > 441
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "Eldert Rademaker" <radducs@>
                    wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I use several Yamaha rods to and they never fail
                    > > i use the XT 500 145 mm long rod (BE is 34 x 42 and 24 mm wide
                    > > and the early TT 600 is 135.5 mm long ( be is 34 x 42 and 20 mm
                    wide )
                    > > another rod that will fit the same bigend pin is a Prox rod for a
                    > > 79 /81 XL XR Honda . it is 141 mm long and be is 34 x 42 x 20 SE
                    is
                    > > 21 mm
                    > >
                    > > Eldert
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > .
                    > > > In fact the wide BE bearing the TT500 used was overkill. The
                    later
                    > > > TT600 was (I think) 5mm narrower and was perfectly adequate for
                    > > smaller
                    > > > machines. My '35 250 MOV Velocette racer had a TT600 rod and
                    big end
                    > > > fitted by the famous Les Diener back in the '80s and it is
                    still in
                    > > > good condition.
                    > > >
                    > > > TT/XT500s used a 34mm crankpin, as did the early 600s, but they
                    > > changed
                    > > > to 35mm pins and bearings a bit later.
                    > > > The BE bearings are also brilliant and 'never' fail unless oil
                    is
                    > > never
                    > >
                    >
                  • davidfallon441
                    Thanks again Greg and Ian. I did a little searching on the old mailing lists. You guys you had answered these sorts of questions before, so I appreciate the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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                      Thanks again Greg and Ian. I did a little searching on the old
                      mailing lists. You guys you had answered these sorts of questions
                      before, so I appreciate the effort again today.

                      The stepped pin seems like a second class solution to me as well.
                      Getting the flywheels bored and ground for the larger pin would be a
                      challenge but any advice there would be appreciated. I know the
                      flywheels are hardened, or so it seems.

                      I especially appreciate the note about the quality of the bearings
                      required to survive the BE.

                      David Fallon
                      441



                      --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "gregsummerton" <gregss@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Ian answered your hardening question, I use EN36A or EN39B (slightly
                      > stronger) but I don't know what that translates to in readily
                      > available steel in your neck of the woods.
                      >
                      > Not sure I'd want to muck around grinding down an off shelf bearing
                      > inner for a big end, especially 1 mm. Big ends have enormously
                      > difficult conditions under which to operate and the best quality non-
                      > big end designed bearings simply cannot cope.
                      > If you want reliability, get a pin made by someone who knows what
                      > they are doing or if you are moderately handy with a lathe, rough it
                      > out, get it hardened and get some one to grind finish it for you. But
                      > make sure you specify the grinding carefully.
                      >
                      > Nothing wrong with a stepped pin either, as long as you put a
                      > generous rad on the step and make sure you have a slightly bigger rad
                      > on the hole edge, something that others have failed to remember!
                      >
                      > It is a mental pain when changing an old large roller diameter design
                      > over to smaller modern needle roller bearings, you end up with either
                      > a big step in the pin, which in itself is no problem, or a thick rod
                      > sleeve, if you sleeve the original rod down to size.
                      >
                      > Either way you will have a slightly heavier big end and need to
                      > rebalance it. It wont be much, but it LOOKS bad compared to the
                      > original when you look at the heavier pin or sleeve.
                      > But when you think about the total metal in the parts, it isn't much
                      > different, it just looks bad.
                      >
                      > I usualy opt for the larger pin solution and have often ground out
                      > the flywheel holes to remove the need for a stepped pin because it
                      > results in a stronger pin. When the original is on the small side it
                      > makes sense, I call it insurance..lol
                      > (and I don't like stepped pins on principle...lol...but they are
                      > perfectly okay when radiused correctly, it's just a personal thing)
                      >
                      > And for anyone reading this that might be tempted to go this route,
                      > just be aware that normal every day needle roller bearings from your
                      > local bearing supplier are definitely not adequate for use in big
                      > ends in any moderately useful engine. Full stop!
                      >
                      > As far as I am aware, INA were the first to supply good quality
                      > needle roller bearings for big end service. If not the first, they
                      > certainly were/are the best known by reputation, here in Oz at least.
                      >
                      > Some time in the past there was a commercial tie-up between INA and a
                      > Japanese bearing manufacturer. Koyo, I think it was, but could be
                      > wrong. That commercial arrangment was for, or led to, the transfer of
                      > the INA technology to the Japanese bearing manufacturers.
                      > I believe the commercial tie ceased some time ago and now the
                      > Japanese supply bearings are at least the equal of the famous INA big
                      > end needle rollers.
                      >
                      > It is interesting to note that some Japanese motorcycle big end
                      > bearing cages are copper plated while others are silver plated.
                      > General opinion that I've gathered is that there is little to
                      > differentiate them, other than the ritzy appearance of the silver
                      > items. But that is all just opinion.
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Greg
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "davidfallon441" <davidinwa@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thanks Eldert and Greg, good testimony on the toughness of the
                      > Yamaha
                      > > rods.
                      > >
                      > > Any advise on the hardness, depth, and method to harden the pin? I
                      > > might have to make a stepped pin to work with the 30mm holes in the
                      > > flywheels; either that or use a bearing race installed over the 30mm
                      > > pin. I have found a bearing race that is 30mm x 35mm that I could
                      > > have ground to 34mm OD. The other option is to use 6mm rollers,
                      > but I
                      > > have not found a bearing retainer yet. The original rollers for the
                      > > BE are .250inch. I find the use of inch size rollers on an Italian
                      > > design to be interesting, especially as this design originated in
                      > the
                      > > 50s.
                      > >
                      > > David Fallon
                      > > 441
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "Eldert Rademaker" <radducs@>
                      > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I use several Yamaha rods to and they never fail
                      > > > i use the XT 500 145 mm long rod (BE is 34 x 42 and 24 mm wide
                      > > > and the early TT 600 is 135.5 mm long ( be is 34 x 42 and 20 mm
                      > wide )
                      > > > another rod that will fit the same bigend pin is a Prox rod for a
                      > > > 79 /81 XL XR Honda . it is 141 mm long and be is 34 x 42 x 20 SE
                      > is
                      > > > 21 mm
                      > > >
                      > > > Eldert
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > .
                      > > > > In fact the wide BE bearing the TT500 used was overkill. The
                      > later
                      > > > > TT600 was (I think) 5mm narrower and was perfectly adequate for
                      > > > smaller
                      > > > > machines. My '35 250 MOV Velocette racer had a TT600 rod and
                      > big end
                      > > > > fitted by the famous Les Diener back in the '80s and it is
                      > still in
                      > > > > good condition.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > TT/XT500s used a 34mm crankpin, as did the early 600s, but they
                      > > > changed
                      > > > > to 35mm pins and bearings a bit later.
                      > > > > The BE bearings are also brilliant and 'never' fail unless oil
                      > is
                      > > > never
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Jordan
                      I like that! I just looks bad. Good enough reason to guide one s engine design thinking - brings a little art into the craft. Jordan
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 3, 2008
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                        I like that! I just looks bad.
                        Good enough reason to guide one's engine design thinking - brings a
                        little art into the craft.

                        Jordan

                        ......................................................................
                        Posted by: "gregsummerton"

                        Either way you will have a slightly heavier big end and need to
                        rebalance it. It wont be much, but it LOOKS bad compared to the
                        original when you look at the heavier pin or sleeve.
                        But when you think about the total metal in the parts, it isn't much
                        different, it just looks bad.
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