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Oils aint oils....

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  • Greg Summerton
    Yeah, I know, a hoary old subject....full of opinion and little fact, as I ve found in the past.....but I am interested to know what opinions/experiences are
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 6, 2008
      Yeah, I know, a hoary old subject....full of opinion and little fact, as
      I've found in the past.....but I am interested to know what
      opinions/experiences are when it comes to the best oils for methanol
      burning racing single cylinder 4 strokes with roller and ball bearings.

      I've stuck to castor 40W (that is what it is as it comes out of the
      bean, I believe) because it is what speedway engines used....and affords
      the best protection.
      When Castrol (in Australia) stopped supplying their R40 (I believe it is
      still available in the UK?) I called their head chemist and he told me
      that I would ahve to buy some other manufacturer's castor oil if I
      wanted the an oil with the same shear strength etc because no synthetic
      or mineral oil can match castor for protecting highly stressed roller
      and ball bearings as found in this type of application.

      I believe him and have been using Rock Oil Castor.
      But while it has worked, it does have a lot more gummy crap left in the
      engine and sometimes a jelly like substance is observed. I also note I
      have had condensation rust and damage inside the engine that I used to
      get with the old R40 many years ago.
      I believed that R40 improved heaps over the years and became much more
      friendly to use, anyone notice this? I assume it had something to do
      with the degree of filtration/additives/refinement, or whatever, but it
      was not like it used to be, as far as my (poor) memory told me.

      A year or so ago, Richard (I think) Swallow of British historic racing
      fame, wrote an article for Classic Racer (I think) that extolled the
      benefits and claims of using a castor based oil, it confirmed my
      thoughts and experience. I go to all the trouble and expense of
      making/buying the parts and don't want to have them wear out any sooner
      than they have to.

      I am not quite happy with the Rock Oil Castor and would change back to
      Castrol R40 in a flash if it were available.
      However, I note that Castrol still supply R30 oil. which is strange,
      especially when I was told that this is a modified version of the stock
      base oil which is 40W as it occurs, it may be that Castrol don't supply
      R40 here in Australia any more for purely commercial reasons but R30
      still has sufficient market?

      Shell also.provide a castor based synthetic blend ...quite a few use it
      in their methanol burning Japanese 2 stroke historic race bikes here.
      I am tempted to try it in my 4 stroke......but am concerned that a
      straight 30w oil would not be thick enough at operating temps when
      recirculated in a 4 stroke.
      I guess I need to measure the oil temp and talk to Castrol chemists....I
      might get around to it, but in the meantime I've got some questions::

      Does anyone use castor oil in their race engines? (which engines?)
      What Castor oils do you use?
      Can anyone recommend a castor 40W oil that is more like the old friendly
      Castrol R40?
      Is a 30W castor-synthetic blend likely to be adequate for a 4 stroke or
      should it only be 40W?

      While we are at it, if you don't use castor, what have you found
      adequate for a highly stressed methanol burning engine of this type?

      Ah yeah, another question....out of interest, because I posted this same
      message on the 'other list" who on this list does _not_ subscribe to the
      mc-chassis list?
      It might save double posts.
      Cheers and thanks,
      Greg
    • John Mead
      Greg, Can you get Morris oils in AU? It is a UK product. They make Castor based oils in 30, 40 & 50 weights. They are called MLR30,etc.
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 6, 2008
        Greg,
        Can you get Morris oils in AU? It is a UK product. They make Castor based oils in 30, 40 & 50 weights. They are called MLR30,etc.

        http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/

        John Mead
        --- On Sat, 9/6/08, Greg Summerton <gregss@...> wrote:

        > From: Greg Summerton <gregss@...>
        > Subject: Oils aint oils....
        > To: "mc-engine" <mc-engine@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 10:39 PM
        > Yeah, I know, a hoary old subject....full of opinion and
        > little fact, as
        > I've found in the past.....but I am interested to know
        > what
        > opinions/experiences are when it comes to the best oils for
        > methanol
        > burning racing single cylinder 4 strokes with roller and
        > ball bearings.
        >
        > I've stuck to castor 40W (that is what it is as it
        > comes out of the
        > bean, I believe) because it is what speedway engines
        > used....and affords
        > the best protection.
        > When Castrol (in Australia) stopped supplying their R40 (I
        > believe it is
        > still available in the UK?) I called their head chemist and
        > he told me
        > that I would ahve to buy some other manufacturer's
        > castor oil if I
        > wanted the an oil with the same shear strength etc because
        > no synthetic
        > or mineral oil can match castor for protecting highly
        > stressed roller
        > and ball bearings as found in this type of application.
        >
        > I believe him and have been using Rock Oil Castor.
        > But while it has worked, it does have a lot more gummy crap
        > left in the
        > engine and sometimes a jelly like substance is observed. I
        > also note I
        > have had condensation rust and damage inside the engine
        > that I used to
        > get with the old R40 many years ago.
        > I believed that R40 improved heaps over the years and
        > became much more
        > friendly to use, anyone notice this? I assume it had
        > something to do
        > with the degree of filtration/additives/refinement, or
        > whatever, but it
        > was not like it used to be, as far as my (poor) memory told
        > me.
        >
        > A year or so ago, Richard (I think) Swallow of British
        > historic racing
        > fame, wrote an article for Classic Racer (I think) that
        > extolled the
        > benefits and claims of using a castor based oil, it
        > confirmed my
        > thoughts and experience. I go to all the trouble and
        > expense of
        > making/buying the parts and don't want to have them
        > wear out any sooner
        > than they have to.
        >
        > I am not quite happy with the Rock Oil Castor and would
        > change back to
        > Castrol R40 in a flash if it were available.
        > However, I note that Castrol still supply R30 oil. which is
        > strange,
        > especially when I was told that this is a modified version
        > of the stock
        > base oil which is 40W as it occurs, it may be that Castrol
        > don't supply
        > R40 here in Australia any more for purely commercial
        > reasons but R30
        > still has sufficient market?
        >
        > Shell also.provide a castor based synthetic blend ...quite
        > a few use it
        > in their methanol burning Japanese 2 stroke historic race
        > bikes here.
        > I am tempted to try it in my 4 stroke......but am concerned
        > that a
        > straight 30w oil would not be thick enough at operating
        > temps when
        > recirculated in a 4 stroke.
        > I guess I need to measure the oil temp and talk to Castrol
        > chemists....I
        > might get around to it, but in the meantime I've got
        > some questions::
        >
        > Does anyone use castor oil in their race engines? (which
        > engines?)
        > What Castor oils do you use?
        > Can anyone recommend a castor 40W oil that is more like the
        > old friendly
        > Castrol R40?
        > Is a 30W castor-synthetic blend likely to be adequate for a
        > 4 stroke or
        > should it only be 40W?
        >
        > While we are at it, if you don't use castor, what have
        > you found
        > adequate for a highly stressed methanol burning engine of
        > this type?
        >
        > Ah yeah, another question....out of interest, because I
        > posted this same
        > message on the 'other list" who on this list does
        > _not_ subscribe to the
        > mc-chassis list?
        > It might save double posts.
        > Cheers and thanks,
        > Greg
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Eldert Rademaker
        Hi Greg the best Castor oil comes from the first pressing the lesser oil comes from the second (or third ?) pressings Eldert
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 7, 2008
          Hi Greg

          the best Castor oil comes from the first pressing
          the lesser oil comes from the second (or third ?) pressings

          Eldert
        • Ken Augustine
          Greg S, A pal likely has some Castrol R in the white cylindrical cans or possibly the white plastic bottles. I have seen it but can t recall if it was in the
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 7, 2008
            Greg S,

                A pal likely has some Castrol R in the white cylindrical cans or possibly the white plastic bottles.   I have seen it but can't recall if it was in the supply room the last time I was there.   If you absolutely must have it, I can inquire but I don't know how I'd get it to you, across the pond.

            Ken A

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Greg Summerton <gregss@...>
            To: mc-engine <mc-engine@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 7:39:38 PM
            Subject: Oils aint oils....

            Yeah, I know, a hoary old subject....full of opinion and little fact, as
            I've found in the past.....but I am interested to know what
            opinions/experience s are when it comes to the best oils for methanol
            burning racing single cylinder 4 strokes with roller and ball bearings.

            I've stuck to castor 40W (that is what it is as it comes out of the
            bean, I believe) because it is what speedway engines used....and affords
            the best protection.
            When Castrol (in Australia) stopped supplying their R40 (I believe it is
            still available in the UK?) I called their head chemist and he told me
            that I would ahve to buy some other manufacturer' s castor oil if I
            wanted the an oil with the same shear strength etc because no synthetic
            or mineral oil can match castor for protecting highly stressed roller
            and ball bearings as found in this type of application.

            I believe him and have been using Rock Oil Castor.
            But while it has worked, it does have a lot more gummy crap left in the
            engine and sometimes a jelly like substance is observed. I also note I
            have had condensation rust and damage inside the engine that I used to
            get with the old R40 many years ago.
            I believed that R40 improved heaps over the years and became much more
            friendly to use, anyone notice this? I assume it had something to do
            with the degree of filtration/additive s/refinement, or whatever, but it
            was not like it used to be, as far as my (poor) memory told me.

            A year or so ago, Richard (I think) Swallow of British historic racing
            fame, wrote an article for Classic Racer (I think) that extolled the
            benefits and claims of using a castor based oil, it confirmed my
            thoughts and experience. I go to all the trouble and expense of
            making/buying the parts and don't want to have them wear out any sooner
            than they have to.

            I am not quite happy with the Rock Oil Castor and would change back to
            Castrol R40 in a flash if it were available.
            However, I note that Castrol still supply R30 oil. which is strange,
            especially when I was told that this is a modified version of the stock
            base oil which is 40W as it occurs, it may be that Castrol don't supply
            R40 here in Australia any more for purely commercial reasons but R30
            still has sufficient market?

            Shell also.provide a castor based synthetic blend ...quite a few use it
            in their methanol burning Japanese 2 stroke historic race bikes here.
            I am tempted to try it in my 4 stroke...... but am concerned that a
            straight 30w oil would not be thick enough at operating temps when
            recirculated in a 4 stroke.
            I guess I need to measure the oil temp and talk to Castrol chemists.... I
            might get around to it, but in the meantime I've got some questions::

            Does anyone use castor oil in their race engines? (which engines?)
            What Castor oils do you use?
            Can anyone recommend a castor 40W oil that is more like the old friendly
            Castrol R40?
            Is a 30W castor-synthetic blend likely to be adequate for a 4 stroke or
            should it only be 40W?

            While we are at it, if you don't use castor, what have you found
            adequate for a highly stressed methanol burning engine of this type?

            Ah yeah, another question.... out of interest, because I posted this same
            message on the 'other list" who on this list does _not_ subscribe to the
            mc-chassis list?
            It might save double posts.
            Cheers and thanks,
            Greg

          • gregsummerton
            John, Haven t been able to find an outlet so far therefore I decided to contact Morris to see if they export to Oz. Someone also suggested Fuchs Silkolene
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 7, 2008
              John,
              Haven't been able to find an outlet so far therefore I decided to
              contact Morris to see if they export to Oz.
              Someone also suggested Fuchs Silkolene Castorene R50 but I haven't
              found an outlet for that here yet.

              I have found that the later Jawa speedway engines that do indeed
              recirculate their 0.6Lt of oil do use 30W, but I suspect it hardly
              warms up in a race... so it doesn't answer my question about whether
              30W is too light for road racing.

              I'll keep on trying.

              Thanks,
              Greg

              >
              > Greg,
              > Can you get Morris oils in AU? It is a UK product. They make
              Castor based oils in 30, 40 & 50 weights. They are called MLR30,etc.
              >
              > http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/
              >
              > John Mead
            • gregsummerton
              Thanks Ken, I take it from that reply you don t use castor. What do you use/recommend?...not that I am likely to change....haha! But you never know.... I ve
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 7, 2008
                Thanks Ken,
                I take it from that reply you don't use castor.
                What do you use/recommend?...not that I am likely to change....haha!
                But you never know....

                I've been told I can buy Castrol R40 from the UK, but as freight would
                be prohibitive on top of the exchange rate that has now taken a big
                dive in recent days it just might convince me to change to a mineral,
                synthetic or blend if I can't find another supplier of an equivalent
                quality castor oil to Castrol R40.
                Greg


                >
                > A pal likely has some Castrol R in the white cylindrical cans or
                possibly the white plastic bottles. I have seen it but can't recall
                if it was in the supply room the last time I was there. If you
                absolutely must have it, I can inquire but I don't know how I'd get it
                to you, across the pond.
                >
                > Ken A
                >
              • gregsummerton
                ... Eldert, That sounds like olive oils...haha! I went looking for info on what has been added/changed in castor lubricants to make them more friendly. I had
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 7, 2008
                  > Hi Greg
                  >
                  > the best Castor oil comes from the first pressing
                  > the lesser oil comes from the second (or third ?) pressings
                  >
                  > Eldert
                  >

                  Eldert,
                  That sounds like olive oils...haha!
                  I went looking for info on what has been added/changed in castor
                  lubricants to make them more friendly. I had suspected that synthetics
                  were blended with the castor and this seems to confirm that it is a
                  good thing to do.
                  I suspect the Rock Oil castor is a 'straight' castor oil, or at least
                  has minimal additives.
                  I've written an email to them, but I doubt I'll get any sort of reply.


                  But, here is something interesting that I did find ...
                  http://www.georgiacombat.com/CASTOR_OIL.htm
                  Whilst it is written for aero model engines, it has some interesting
                  facts and gives a good insight in the unique properties of castor and
                  how it provides unique benefits at high temps in model engines etc.

                  "Castor oil ...... is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is
                  the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond
                  those at which most synthetics will work. ........ Castor oil has
                  excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes
                  rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms
                  ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even
                  begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F.
                  Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated
                  temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor
                  oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better
                  lubricant!"

                  Cheers,
                  Greg
                • Ken Augustine
                  Greg, When I don t know of or expect a lubrication issue, I use whatever is handy as all modern automotive motor oil is extremely good. If there is a known
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 8, 2008
                    Greg,

                        When I don't know of or expect a lubrication issue, I use whatever is handy as all modern automotive motor oil is extremely good.   If there is a known lubrication issue such as rocker arms in the CB-450 or tappets in vintage Triumphs, I add a bit of zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate , 

                    http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=zinc+dialkyl+dithiophosphate&fr=yfp-t-100&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

                        to whatever modern allegedly high performance oil I have handy.   This is usually a 20w50  but I also use 10w40 and 5w15 regularly available high detergent modern motor oils.   I have had good success with Mobil 1 and used only slightly more than a quart of Amzoil synthetic ( possibly esther based synthetic) in my Suzuki GS 1000 based street drag bike which ran so fast and had no lubrication problems whatsoever.  

                        Castor oil is obsolete but gained its favor when metals and other available oils were terrible and the extreme film strength of all castor oil blends was required.   Castrol had been advertized as   *Triple Degummed*   which may be analagous to what is done these days to remove glycerine from the vegetable raw product.

                    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2008/0178521.html

                       
                        This is a universally acknowleged requirement for bio diesel and I suspect that is basically what is acheived in the the degumming process of Castor oil when used as a motor oil.  

                        The initial use of which I am familiar is in WW I aircraft engines of which,   ROTARY   type radials used it as they had extremely odd lubrication requirements and were essentially 2/strokes with transfer ports and one, yes,   one    valve per cylinder which was used for both half of the inlet and all of the exhaust function.   I am not aware of a seperate oil lubrication system being fitted at least on the early ones so castor oil was mixed with the gasoline which was fed through the stationary hollow crank main shaft.  

                    http://www.pilotfriend.com/aero_engines/aero_rotary.htm


                        Anyway, I'd use a modern racing motor oil of viscosity at least close to what you have been running with your castor.

                    Ken A

                    ================================================================

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: gregsummerton <gregss@...>
                    To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 10:55:49 PM
                    Subject: Re: Oils aint oils....

                    Thanks Ken,
                    I take it from that reply you don't use castor.
                    What do you use/recommend? ...not that I am likely to change....haha!
                    But you never know....

                    I've been told I can buy Castrol R40 from the UK, but as freight would
                    be prohibitive on top of the exchange rate that has now taken a big
                    dive in recent days it just might convince me to change to a mineral,
                    synthetic or blend if I can't find another supplier of an equivalent
                    quality castor oil to Castrol R40.
                    Greg

                    >
                    > A pal likely has some Castrol R in the white cylindrical cans or
                    possibly the white plastic bottles. I have seen it but can't recall
                    if it was in the supply room the last time I was there. If you
                    absolutely must have it, I can inquire but I don't know how I'd get it
                    to you, across the pond.
                    >
                    > Ken A
                    >

                  • RohanB
                    Greg, what do the local Manx Nortons use ? For a very long time the factory recommended only Castor-based oil, and in fact refused to recommend anything else
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 8, 2008
                      Greg, what do the local Manx Nortons use ?
                      For a very long time the factory recommended only Castor-based oil, and in
                      fact refused to recommend anything else for racing.

                      These days, F1 cars use some sort of special triple-rated synthetic - and
                      the temps and stresses in those things are enormous, so it must be good ??

                      HTH.
                    • gregsummerton
                      Ken, Yes I too was reading up on zinc. Penrite were quite informative and raised other interesting info and issues I d not heard about before...hardly
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 8, 2008
                        Ken,
                        Yes I too was reading up on zinc. Penrite were quite informative and
                        raised other interesting info and issues I'd not heard about
                        before...hardly surprising.

                        http://www.penriteoil.com/uk/nextpage.php?navlink=Zinc%20in%20Engine%20Oils

                        http://www.penrite.com.au/files/OK829177ZT/128%20MYTHS%20AND%20LEGENDS%204%20%20-%20MORE%20ON%20ZINC.pdf

                        They also had the following article on castor so I am mostly convinced
                        it is about time to change, perhaps.

                        http://www.penrite.com.au/files/V1ZBD4EELF/V3_RiseandFallofCastor.pdf

                        Then I found the followig list of a range of their top oils for
                        extreme conditions (racing)
                        http://www.penrite.com.au/html/s02_article/article_view.asp?art_id=438&nav_cat_id=178&nav_top_id=55

                        and in it they offer this castor based oil!!!!
                        http://www.penrite.com.au/files/TVL5ZW7L1O/SINRACECASTOR.pdf
                        So why, if Castor is obsolete (according to some of their info) do
                        they offer this?
                        Giving the customer what he wants I guess....or it could be that it is
                        still the best fuel soluble oil for the purpose, that would explain
                        why Castrol and other manufacturers still offer 30W castor oils and
                        not the old 40W that was more suitable for a 4 stroke that
                        recirculated, and more importantly, heated its oil.

                        So maybe I will go for one of the top synthetics like the Penrite SIN
                        series.

                        But, I'll be interested to see how it works in a simple 'test' I was
                        introduced to many years ago by one of the old guys of the sport.
                        He always used castor oil to lubricate crankpins and such when
                        pressing into flywheels. It was quite a dramatic and useful demo. No
                        longer did the pins groan and bang as they drove in and you could
                        'inch' the pin down nicely instead of it proceeding fitfully in a
                        series of big jerks. With a big stiff press, you can actually nudge
                        the pin to the right rod clearance quite readily, the final
                        'adjustment' being done while having pressure on and tapping the
                        wheels with a copper hammer. Almost thou-perfect!

                        Not only that, I've never had a pin 'fire up' when being removed. But
                        I have had a couple from before I used castor.
                        It won me.

                        However, this does not necessarily make it the best lubricant,
                        obviously there are other issues to consider, but it was a good
                        argument, none-the-less!

                        Yes, after spending some hours on and off, searching for a supplier
                        here in Oz, I think it is time for a change.....to what I do not know,
                        yet!

                        Greg



                        >
                        > Greg,
                        >
                        > When I don't know of or expect a lubrication issue, I use
                        whatever is handy as all modern automotive motor oil is extremely
                        good. If there is a known lubrication issue such as rocker arms in
                        the CB-450 or tappets in vintage Triumphs, I add a bit of zinc dialkyl
                        dithiophosphate ,
                        >
                        >
                        http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=zinc+dialkyl+dithiophosphate&fr=yfp-t-100&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
                        >
                        > to whatever modern allegedly high performance oil I have handy.
                        This is usually a 20w50 but I also use 10w40 and 5w15 regularly
                        available high detergent modern motor oils. I have had good success
                        with Mobil 1 and used only slightly more than a quart of Amzoil
                        synthetic ( possibly esther based synthetic) in my Suzuki GS 1000
                        based street drag bike which ran so fast and had no lubrication
                        problems whatsoever.
                        >
                        > Castor oil is obsolete but gained its favor when metals and
                        other available oils were terrible and the extreme film strength of
                        all castor oil blends was required. Castrol had been advertized as
                        *Triple Degummed* which may be analagous to what is done these days
                        to remove glycerine from the vegetable raw product.
                        >
                        > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2008/0178521.html
                        >
                        >
                        > This is a universally acknowleged requirement for bio diesel and
                        I suspect that is basically what is acheived in the the degumming
                        process of Castor oil when used as a motor oil.
                        >
                        > The initial use of which I am familiar is in WW I aircraft
                        engines of which, ROTARY type radials used it as they had
                        extremely odd lubrication requirements and were essentially 2/strokes
                        with transfer ports and one, yes, one valve per cylinder which
                        was used for both half of the inlet and all of the exhaust function.
                        I am not aware of a seperate oil lubrication system being fitted at
                        least on the early ones so castor oil was mixed with the gasoline
                        which was fed through the stationary hollow crank main shaft.
                        >
                        > http://www.pilotfriend.com/aero_engines/aero_rotary.htm
                        >
                        >
                        > Anyway, I'd use a modern racing motor oil of viscosity at least
                        close to what you have been running with your castor.
                        >
                        > Ken A
                        >
                        > ================================================================
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: gregsummerton <gregss@...>
                        > To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 10:55:49 PM
                        > Subject: Re: Oils aint oils....
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks Ken,
                        > I take it from that reply you don't use castor.
                        > What do you use/recommend? ...not that I am likely to change....haha!
                        > But you never know....
                        >
                        > I've been told I can buy Castrol R40 from the UK, but as freight would
                        > be prohibitive on top of the exchange rate that has now taken a big
                        > dive in recent days it just might convince me to change to a mineral,
                        > synthetic or blend if I can't find another supplier of an equivalent
                        > quality castor oil to Castrol R40.
                        > Greg
                        >
                        > >
                        > > A pal likely has some Castrol R in the white cylindrical cans or
                        > possibly the white plastic bottles. I have seen it but can't recall
                        > if it was in the supply room the last time I was there. If you
                        > absolutely must have it, I can inquire but I don't know how I'd get it
                        > to you, across the pond.
                        > >
                        > > Ken A
                        > >
                        >
                      • gregsummerton
                        Not sure, in fact we only have one local Manx here in SA...ha! But I was going to check and see what Molnar and Summerfields recommend. Greg ... and in ... -
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 8, 2008
                          Not sure, in fact we only have one 'local' Manx here in SA...ha! But I
                          was going to check and see what Molnar and Summerfields recommend.
                          Greg


                          > Greg, what do the local Manx Nortons use ?
                          > For a very long time the factory recommended only Castor-based oil,
                          and in
                          > fact refused to recommend anything else for racing.
                          >
                          > These days, F1 cars use some sort of special triple-rated synthetic
                          - and
                          > the temps and stresses in those things are enormous, so it must be
                          good ??
                          >
                          > HTH.
                          >
                        • John Mead
                          Molnar recommends Morris MLR40 for his Manx, 7R & G50 engines. John Mead
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 8, 2008
                            Molnar recommends Morris MLR40 for his Manx, 7R & G50 engines.

                            John Mead
                            --- On Mon, 9/8/08, gregsummerton <gregss@...> wrote:

                            > From: gregsummerton <gregss@...>
                            > Subject: Re: Oils aint oils....
                            > To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 6:03 AM
                            > Not sure, in fact we only have one 'local' Manx here
                            > in SA...ha! But I
                            > was going to check and see what Molnar and Summerfields
                            > recommend.
                            > Greg
                            >
                            >
                            > > Greg, what do the local Manx Nortons use ?
                            > > For a very long time the factory recommended only
                            > Castor-based oil,
                            > and in
                            > > fact refused to recommend anything else for racing.
                            > >
                            > > These days, F1 cars use some sort of special
                            > triple-rated synthetic
                            > - and
                            > > the temps and stresses in those things are enormous,
                            > so it must be
                            > good ??
                            > >
                            > > HTH.
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • GStarRon@aol.com
                            Hi Greg... Yes, lots of people swear that you MUST use bean oil.... So, against all that advice, I use a race synthetic, Red Line oil, which says 50wt on
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 8, 2008
                              Hi Greg...
                               
                              Yes, lots of people swear that you MUST use bean oil....  So, against all that advice,  I use a race synthetic, Red Line oil, which says 50wt on the front and 15-50 on the back... yes it pours well, yes my engine stays clean, and yes I now have three race seasons on the engine with several trips to the dyno room and everything looks like news... oh yes,  I just got back from the MGP, and now will have the crank apart for a look see, but I bet it looks like new as well...
                               
                              Yes there are many die hards that use bean oil, and yes it works, but as others have said, if it were the "best" oil to use, then F1 would use it, as would every racer of all kinds...  I have not heard of any other race venue that uses bean oil, except the old bike racers... there may be one or two, but I have not heard of them....
                               
                              Cheers..!!
                               
                              Ron
                               
                               
                              In a message dated 9/7/2008 10:47:57 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, gregss@... writes:
                              I have found that the later Jawa speedway engines that do indeed
                              recirculate their 0.6Lt of oil do use 30W, but I suspect it hardly
                              warms up in a race... so it doesn't answer my question about whether
                              30W is too light for road racing.

                              I'll keep on trying.

                              Thanks,
                              Greg



                            • gregsummerton
                              ... against all ... on the ... Yes Ron, While I have not been one of those who says you MUST run bean oil, I d not had any convincing reason to change from
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 8, 2008
                                GStarRon@... wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Greg...
                                >
                                > Yes, lots of people swear that you MUST use bean oil.... So,
                                against all
                                > that advice, I use a race synthetic, Red Line oil, which says 50wt
                                on the
                                > front and 15-50 on the back.

                                Yes Ron,
                                While I have not been one of those who says you MUST run bean oil, I'd
                                not had any convincing reason to change from what I'd found to be good
                                over the last 30 ears of running methanol four stroke 500 singles in
                                dirt track speedway and road racing, sidecars and solos.

                                But as I am open to changes if there are good reasons and supporting
                                evidence etc, and since my 'beloved R40' went off the market here in
                                Oz, and I am not happy with the rather crude Rock Oil castor (much
                                like the old R40 of decades ago) ...change is what I am looking at.

                                The options are many, some of it from experience but a lot of it is
                                just opinion from people who have not objectively tried more than one
                                or two oils.
                                I like to work a little more carefully than just opinion....I make
                                life hard for myself....haha!


                                Others have suggested using castor oil as used in Karts, but most of
                                them are 30W from what I've seen and am not all that keen to use a
                                30W. I think I said before that some of the speedway engine people
                                recommend 30W castor, but their oil is not heated like mine would be
                                in road racing engine with good recirculation so it would not be
                                dropping markedly in viscosity.

                                However, if experienced and, most likely, particular people like
                                yourself have had success with an oil, then that is what I might have
                                to settle for and get on with life and stop worrying.

                                Thanks to all for your inputs, the search will go on for a little
                                while yet....
                                Greg
                              • GStarRon@aol.com
                                Hi Greg... Guess I should of mentioned something.... but some of the people that swear by bean oil, also get free oil... not sure if that makes a difference
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 9, 2008
                                  Hi Greg...
                                   
                                  Guess I should of mentioned something.... but some of the people that swear by bean oil, also get free oil... not sure if that makes a difference in their opinions or not but...
                                   
                                  I do remember some years ago, when the TZ's were king, I mean the King raced a TZ, the other guys were having problems, and was blaming Yamalube... while the King had no such issues.... Now it was suggested (never proved by the way) that some oil bottles had different "stuff" in them, and one of the racers hollered out, "Hey if it is the same oil, then just switch those bottles for these...."  And of course that never happened with lots of hems and haws....  Yes I was there, and yes I saw and heard that exchange... Laguna Seca in the 80's.....
                                   
                                  Cheers..!!
                                   
                                  Ron

                                   
                                  In a message dated 9/8/2008 9:03:04 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, gregss@... writes:
                                  Yes Ron,
                                  While I have not been one of those who says you MUST run bean oil, I'd
                                  not had any convincing reason to change from what I'd found to be good
                                  over the last 30 ears of running methanol four stroke 500 singles in
                                  dirt track speedway and road racing, sidecars and solos.



                                • Brad Heiter
                                  I worked at a Yamaha shop and raced RDs in the late 70s early 80s. I premixed with Yamalube R and it worked fine, till one day I noticed it had a different
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Sep 9, 2008
                                    I worked at a Yamaha shop and raced RDs in the late 70s early 80s. I premixed with Yamalube R and it worked fine, till one day I noticed it had a different odor, sort of an ammonia smell.  I used it and while it didn't seize the bike didn't perform as it had been.  A top end teardown showed a lot of piston scuffing, no signs of detonation and my EGT never showed any signs of over heating.  I switched to Castrol A747 and then the tuning and performance was as the PRE-ammonia smelling Yamalube R. Later I heard a rumor that a bad batch of Yamalube R had been shipped and some of it made it on the shelfs and was sold before Yamaha realized it and that now it was just fine, I never switched back.
                                    Brad H    
                                     
                                    >I do remember some years ago, when the TZ's were king, I >mean the King raced a TZ, the other guys were having problems, >and was
                                    blaming Yamalube... while the King had no such >issues.... Now it was suggested (never proved by the way) that >some oil bottles had different "stuff" in them, and one of the >racers hollered out, "Hey if it is the same oil, then just switch >those bottles for these...."  And of course that never happened >with lots of hems and haws....  Yes I was there, and yes I saw and >heard that exchange... Laguna Seca in the 80's.....
                                  • Peter
                                    GStarRon@aol.com wrote: Hi Greg... Guess I should of mentioned something.... but some of the people that swear by bean oil, also get free oil... not sure if
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Sep 9, 2008


                                      GStarRon@... wrote:
                                      Hi Greg...
                                       
                                      Guess I should of mentioned something.... but some of the people that swear by bean oil, also get free oil... not sure if that makes a difference in their opinions or not but...
                                       
                                      I do remember some years ago, when the TZ's were king, I mean the King raced a TZ, the other guys were having problems, and was blaming Yamalube... while the King had no such issues.... Now it was suggested (never proved by the way) that some oil bottles had different "stuff" in them, and one of the racers hollered out, "Hey if it is the same oil, then just switch those bottles for these...."  And of course that never happened with lots of hems and haws....  Yes I was there, and yes I saw and heard that exchange... Laguna Seca in the 80's.....


                                      St. Jovite in the late 70's. Kawasaki Superbike sponsored by Castrol. Belray EXP in Castrol R bottles. I poured a lot of "R" in the waste drums...

                                      We were eating cams with the R.
                                      -- 
                                      Peter Haynes
                                      L'Amable, Ontario
                                      
                                      "Governments and laws don't make something right or wrong, facts and morals do."
                                      
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