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Re: Aermacchi cam failure

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  • davidfallon441
    ... Thanks Greg; Even though this is a stock set up, I need to look at the contact point too. With this bike it is very out in the open and easy to see, so
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 1, 2007
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      --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Greg Summerton <gregss@...> wrote:

      >
      > I guess I've lit the oil-fuse now.....lol...hope not.
      > So check the fit of the follower to the cam and make sure it is not
      > running right to the edge of contact before you go too far.
      > Greg
      >
      Thanks Greg;

      Even though this is a stock set up, I need to look at the contact
      point too. With this bike it is very out in the open and easy to see,
      so I'll check that.

      Oil wars, there always interesting, and I hesitated to mention what I
      had used.

      David Fallon
      WMRRA 441
    • hans_o_man
      Hi David, ... Don t bother, the worst work was cleaning the engine from debris :-) The cam was built by myself, and the rockers are repaired by grinding off
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 1, 2007
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        Hi David,
        >
        > It hurts my wallet to see the picture of the Yam 500 cam and lifters.
        >
        Don't bother, the worst work was cleaning the engine from debris :-)
        The cam was built by myself, and the rockers are repaired by grinding
        off the hardblock, hardwelding and regrinding. For I can do that
        myself, ist's not a wallet-, but a time problem...

        For pre-lubrication I use the redline assembly lube
        http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redline10.htm
        >
        > I'm not acquainted with Parkerizing. Is it the do it yourself option?
        >
        I didn't try to parkerize myself, but galvanic shops(?) do that.
        Its also called manganese-phosphating and many OEM-cams are treated
        that way.

        Gruss
        Hans
      • Michael Moore
        David, another thing you can do to prime the engine is before starting it (in the bike) remove the plugs and engage low gear and push it around until you see
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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          David, another thing you can do to prime the engine is before
          starting it (in the bike) remove the plugs and engage low gear and
          push it around until you see signs of oil circulation. You probably
          only really need to do that before the first start of the day.

          I've heard the people at Megacycle Cams refer to "Italian mystery
          cam steel" and they seemed unenthusiastic about hard-welding on
          OEM Italian camshafts due to problems with (I think) cracking.

          cheers,
          Michael
        • davidfallon441
          ... Thanks Michael; The note about the mystery steel is very interesting as the Megacycle folks would have lots of experience with that sort of issue. David
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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            --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Moore" <mmoore@...> wrote:
            >
            > David, another thing you can do to prime the engine is before
            > starting it (in the bike) remove the plugs and engage low gear and
            > push it around until you see signs of oil circulation. You probably
            > only really need to do that before the first start of the day.
            >
            > I've heard the people at Megacycle Cams refer to "Italian mystery
            > cam steel" and they seemed unenthusiastic about hard-welding on
            > OEM Italian camshafts due to problems with (I think) cracking.
            >
            > cheers,
            > Michael
            >
            Thanks Michael;

            The note about the mystery steel is very interesting as the Megacycle
            folks would have lots of experience with that sort of issue.

            David Fallon
            WMRRA 441
          • Ian
            ... There is always arguments over what oil to use, the next hottest subject to get into an argument over is whether to use a pre-lube during assembly. The
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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              >For pre-lubrication I use the redline assembly lube
              ><http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redline10.htm>http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redline10.htm


              There is always arguments over what oil to use, the next hottest
              subject to get into an argument over is whether to use a
              "pre-lube" during assembly. The best engine builders I know
              are divided on this, and if they can't agree then I'm not going to
              express an opinion.



              Cheers IAN


              See www.drysdalev8.com for :
              - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
              - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
              - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
              - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler


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            • davidfallon441
              ... Ian; I do love a heated discussion as long as it sheds a few grains on knowledge on the subject. I usually do not participate myself, but I love to
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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                --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Ian <iwd@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > >For pre-lubrication I use the redline assembly lube
                >
                ><http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redline10.htm>http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redline10.htm
                >
                >
                > There is always arguments over what oil to use, the next hottest
                > subject to get into an argument over is whether to use a
                > "pre-lube" during assembly. The best engine builders I know
                > are divided on this, and if they can't agree then I'm not going to
                > express an opinion.
                >
                >
                >
                > Cheers IAN

                Ian;

                I do love a heated discussion as long as it sheds a few grains on
                knowledge on the subject. I usually do not participate myself, but I
                love to observe.

                David Fallon
                WMRRA 441
              • hans_o_man
                I only wanted to say: [Redline-lube] It worx for me...:-)
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 4, 2007
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                  I only wanted to say: [Redline-lube] It worx for me...:-)
                  >
                  > There is always arguments over what oil to use, the next hottest
                  > subject to get into an argument over is whether to use a
                  > "pre-lube" during assembly. The best engine builders I know
                  > are divided on this, and if they can't agree then I'm not going to
                  > express an opinion.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Cheers IAN
                • Michael Bateman
                  Another question - Has anyone experimented with crankshaft balance factors other than 50% for the SV650? And - in figuring the bobweights are you including an
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 11, 2007
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                    Another question -

                    Has anyone experimented with crankshaft balance factors other than 50% for
                    the SV650? And - in figuring the bobweights are you including an amount for
                    the oil in the crank or are you ignoring it?

                    Also -

                    Is there any reason why a pressed together crank with captured rods (ie
                    Honda 160 etc) can't be balanced statically with the rods in place by
                    hanging appropriate weights from the rod ends while on either a knife edge
                    fixture or a nice fabricated low friction balance rig? I'm sure all of this
                    was figured out in the '40s and I'm just now catching up... :-) Based on
                    my reading of Honda's tech papers from the '60s we tend to relearn an awful
                    lot of stuff that's been known for years.

                    Cheers!

                    Michael

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                    4:06 PM
                  • Ian
                    ... A 90 deg vee twin has zero primary vibe at 50% BF, why would you want anything else ? ... No reason, you can get them pretty close with a bit a practice.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 12, 2007
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                      >Has anyone experimented with crankshaft balance factors other than 50% for
                      >the SV650?


                      A 90 deg vee twin has zero primary vibe at 50% BF, why
                      would you want anything else ?


                      >Is there any reason why a pressed together crank with captured rods (ie
                      >Honda 160 etc) can't be balanced statically with the rods in place by
                      >hanging appropriate weights from the rod ends while on either a knife edge
                      >fixture or a nice fabricated low friction balance rig?


                      No reason, you can get them pretty close with a bit a
                      practice.



                      Cheers IAN



                      See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                      - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                      - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                      - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                      - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler


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                    • Michael Bateman
                      ... Thanks Ian - I guess a better way to ask that question would have been whether or not there s any reason to think of a balance factor other than 50%. I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 12, 2007
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                        >A 90 deg vee twin has zero primary vibe at 50% BF, why
                        >would you want anything else ?

                        Thanks Ian - I guess a better way to ask that question would have been
                        whether or not there's any reason to think of a balance factor other than
                        50%. I have heard tuners that seem to know their stuff talking about
                        balancing over 50% of recip by several percent.

                        >>fixture or a nice fabricated low friction balance rig?

                        >No reason, you can get them pretty close with a bit a
                        >practice.

                        Thanks again - much appreciated. Didn't think I was missing anything, but
                        the more I learn the less I think I know, so it's nice to have confirmation.

                        Cheers -

                        Michael

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                        1:23 PM
                      • Ian
                        ... OK, I thought you were talking about changing it to 35% or 65% BF. Yes, I have heard this 48% to 52% BF argument for Ducati s but I have never ridden one
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 12, 2007
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                          >I have heard tuners that seem to know their stuff talking about
                          >balancing over 50% of recip by several percent.


                          OK, I thought you were talking about changing it to 35% or
                          65% BF.

                          Yes, I have heard this 48% to 52% BF argument for Ducati's
                          but I have never ridden one set up like this so I can't comment.
                          All I can say is that physics says 50% BF gives you zero
                          primary vibe in a 90 deg V twin.

                          The secondary vibe can't be altered by changing the BF, but
                          it is partially cancelled anyway, and not usually too annoying
                          on a 90 deg V twin.

                          What is possibly going on is that introducing a small amount
                          of primary vibe counteracts some of the secondary vibe ?



                          Cheers IAN


                          See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                          - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                          - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                          - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                          - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler


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                        • Michael Bateman
                          ... Interesting thought. Perhaps that s it. For myself I m more interested in engine life rather than perception at this point. Race SV-650s have a terrible
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 12, 2007
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                            >Yes, I have heard this 48% to 52% BF argument for Ducati's
                            >but I have never ridden one set up like this so I can't comment.
                            >All I can say is that physics says 50% BF gives you zero
                            >primary vibe in a 90 deg V twin.

                            >The secondary vibe can't be altered by changing the BF, but
                            >it is partially cancelled anyway, and not usually too annoying
                            >on a 90 deg V twin.

                            >What is possibly going on is that introducing a small amount
                            >of primary vibe counteracts some of the secondary vibe ?

                            Interesting thought. Perhaps that's it. For myself I'm more interested in
                            engine life rather than perception at this point. Race SV-650s have a
                            terrible reputation for broken cranks and I'm hoping to put a dent in it.
                            I've got several guys here that I've been building (sort of building - to a
                            real tight budget) race motors for that always seem to not be able to afford
                            time or money to do things right the first time, but just gotta have that
                            broken motor back together for the next race weekend. And it's gotta make
                            boatloads of power too of course.

                            This season I'm insisting on carefully balanced cranks and flywheels at a
                            minimum, and I want to make sure that I insist on the right thing
                            balance-factor wise. Some of the v-8 tuners say that the cranks need to be
                            overbalanced for high revs, and I've talked to a couple of Ducati tuners who
                            seemed to be thinking along the same lines.

                            It seems to me though that at least for 90 and 180 degree motors it
                            shouldn't depend on revs, unless something is incorrect in the balancing -
                            IE you didn't achieve 50% through an error in measurement or something like
                            that. But that's only how it seems to me - I've certainly not got enough
                            experience to know.

                            Cheers -

                            Michael

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                            1:23 PM
                          • Brent Prindle
                            ... From: Michael Bateman ... The major breaking point on the SV crank is between the main bearing and the rotor. Every one I have
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 12, 2007
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                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Michael Bateman" <michael.bateman@...>
                              ...
                              > Interesting thought. Perhaps that's it. For myself I'm more
                              > interested in
                              > engine life rather than perception at this point. Race SV-650s have a
                              > terrible reputation for broken cranks and I'm hoping to put a dent in
                              > it.
                              > I've got several guys here that I've been building (sort of building -
                              > to a
                              > real tight budget) race motors for that always seem to not be able to
                              > afford
                              > time or money to do things right the first time, but just gotta have
                              > that
                              > broken motor back together for the next race weekend. And it's gotta
                              > make
                              > boatloads of power too of course.
                              >
                              > This season I'm insisting on carefully balanced cranks and flywheels
                              > at a
                              > minimum, and I want to make sure that I insist on the right thing
                              > balance-factor wise. Some of the v-8 tuners say that the cranks need
                              > to be
                              > overbalanced for high revs, and I've talked to a couple of Ducati
                              > tuners who
                              > seemed to be thinking along the same lines.

                              The major breaking point on the SV crank is between the main bearing and
                              the rotor. Every one I have seen has been a torsional break in this
                              area. Sometimes from the oil hole and sometimes from the keyway. Both
                              good stress risers at the wrong place.

                              Lightening up the rotor/flywheel, and keeping a high ratio between web
                              and rotor mass seems to help. The crank inertial "absorbs" some of the
                              shocks from the power pulses and there is less twisting of the crank
                              behind the rotor. I think some of the overbalance is actually adding
                              weight to the crank and helping the ratio.

                              Talk to Lanigan (local guy) and he seems to swear by sending the cranks
                              to Falicon for balance, true, and polish. He says that he has not seen
                              a crank fail that has had this treatment. Perhaps there are some
                              grinding issues from Suzuki that are being polished out, eliminating the
                              stress risers from aggressive/coarse grinding.


                              -oo
                              Brent Prindle
                              BrentP@...
                            • john fisher
                              Zoran would know too, especially if you are in the Bay area. He s on here or the chassis list or both.
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 12, 2007
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                                Zoran would know too, especially if you are in the Bay area.
                                He's on here or the chassis list or both.

                                .... Race SV-650s have a
                                > terrible reputation for broken cranks and I'm hoping to put a dent in it.
                                ... ...
                                >
                                > Cheers -
                                >
                                > Michael
                                >
                              • Ian
                                ... But most V8 s have no balance webs on the centre throws at all, which they compensate for by twisting the webs on the end throws by 13 deg. or so. This
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 12, 2007
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                                  >Some of the v-8 tuners say that the cranks need to be
                                  >overbalanced for high revs,



                                  But most V8's have no balance webs on the centre throws
                                  at all, which they compensate for by twisting the webs on
                                  the end throws by 13 deg. or so.

                                  This means that the middle throws have ( effectively ) a BF
                                  of negative 200-300%. It creates massive stresses in the
                                  crank and main bearings, but cast iron blocks seem to
                                  stand up to it OK.

                                  You will see ongoing arguments as to the need ( or lack of )
                                  to fully counterweight V8 racing cranks. I'd be VERY
                                  nervous about running big revs in a alloy block V8 with an
                                  "end weighed" crank.



                                  Cheers IAN


                                  See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                                  - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                                  - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                                  - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                                  - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler


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                                • Michael Bateman
                                  ... Hi Brent! Good to hear from you. Yes - two of the four breakages were the end of the crank breaking off. Both appeared to start at the end of the keyway.
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 12, 2007
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                                    > The major breaking point on the SV crank is between the main bearing and
                                    > the rotor. Every one I have seen has been a torsional break in this
                                    > area. Sometimes from the oil hole and sometimes from the keyway. Both
                                    > good stress risers at the wrong place.

                                    Hi Brent! Good to hear from you.

                                    Yes - two of the four breakages were the end of the crank breaking off.
                                    Both appeared to start at the end of the keyway. I'll be balancing all of
                                    the flywheels, and lightening the total-loss flywheels as much as possible
                                    before balancing. I'm thinking I'll also try to reduce the stress riser at
                                    the end of the keyway by careful grinding to remove the sharp corners.
                                    Interestingly enough Dan Zlock pointed out to me that the later model cranks
                                    have the keyway moved entirely under the flywheel taper, where earlier ones
                                    were only partially under the taper. I've also noticed that the end of the
                                    flywheel bolt corresponds almost exactly with the end of the keyway. I'm
                                    thinking that a slightly shorter bolt may also be in order.

                                    > Talk to Lanigan (local guy) and he seems to swear by sending the cranks
                                    > to Falicon for balance, true, and polish. He says that he has not seen
                                    > a crank fail that has had this treatment. Perhaps there are some
                                    > grinding issues from Suzuki that are being polished out, eliminating the
                                    > stress risers from aggressive/coarse grinding.

                                    I tried to get these guys to send the cranks to Falicon last year. Of
                                    course there "wasn't enough time" and they didn't want to spend the extra
                                    dough. I talked to Falicon quite a bit and they said that they polish and
                                    balance, and also recommend cryo treatment as well, and still find that the
                                    cranks may not last the season (but are much improved). I see now that they
                                    are offering a billet crank for the SV. Same with balancing the flywheels -
                                    no time or money.

                                    Two of the cranks however were broken at the crankpin on the inside of the
                                    flywheel side web. Right at the radius. Also, in almost all of the motors
                                    the flywheel side main bearing is walking around - the lower half is walking
                                    toward the crank. On the early motors it is retained by a plate, but on the
                                    later motor they (Suzuki) left that plate out and the main bearing just
                                    walks right out into the crank. Even on the early ones the bearing walks
                                    enough to bend the plate out almost a full mm toward the crank.

                                    In talking to Dan Z it appears that almost all of the high hp SV's do this -
                                    but I suspect that it's much worse in the ones with inadequately balanced
                                    cranks. Especially since two of the cranks broke at the web - looks like
                                    the crank is flexing a lot - probably really exaggerated by imbalance. I
                                    pinned one in place with a roll pin in the oil groove, and it appears to be
                                    staying in place, but that's a band-aid.

                                    I'm also guessing that these guys don't exactly operate the bikes with the
                                    most mechanical sympathy. I wouldn't be surprised to find they'd been
                                    bouncing off the rev limiter all the way around the track, and mechanically
                                    forcing it past the rev limiter on downshifts. Perhaps a slipper clutch is
                                    in order... :-)

                                    Cheers -


                                    Michael

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                                    1:23 PM
                                  • Gentry's Garage
                                    HiYa Guyz, I am glad this subject has come up again, as I am wrestling with the planing stages of an 76 degree BSA A10 motor, is there a mathmatical formula to
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 13, 2007
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                                      HiYa Guyz,
                                        I am glad this subject has come up again, as I am wrestling with the planing stages of an 76 degree BSA A10 motor, is there a mathmatical formula to get to a starting point for the balance factor. I have been looking for a while and haven't come up with anything except this are that balance factor works for me.
                                      Thanks
                                      Thad
                                       


                                       
                                      Check out the Project Travelall happening at Gentry's Garage!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                    • John Mead
                                      Have it dynamically balanced. John Mead
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 13, 2007
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                                        Have it dynamically balanced.
                                        John Mead
                                        --- Gentry's Garage <gentrysgarage@...> wrote:

                                        > HiYa Guyz,
                                        > I am glad this subject has come up again, as I am
                                        > wrestling with the planing stages of an 76 degree BSA A10
                                        > motor, is there a mathmatical formula to get to a starting
                                        > point for the balance factor. I have been looking for a while
                                        > and haven't come up with anything except this are that balance
                                        > factor works for me.
                                        > Thanks
                                        > Thad
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Check out the Project Travelall happening at Gentry's
                                        > Garage!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                        >
                                        > http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455088
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Ian
                                        ... You still need the BF to make the dummy weights. Only bike cranks you can dynamically balance without dummy wts & knowing the BF, are 4 cyl cranks. ( OK -
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 13, 2007
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                                          >Have it dynamically balanced.


                                          You still need the BF to make the dummy weights.

                                          Only bike cranks you can dynamically balance without dummy
                                          wts & knowing the BF, are 4 cyl cranks. ( OK - CBX1000
                                          cranks as well I suppose )



                                          Cheers IAN



                                          > > I am glad this subject has come up again, as I am
                                          > > wrestling with the planing stages of an 76 degree BSA A10
                                          > > motor, is there a mathmatical formula to get to a starting
                                          > > point for the balance factor. I have been looking for a while
                                          > > and haven't come up with anything except this are that balance
                                          > > factor works for me.

                                          See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                                          - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                                          - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                                          - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                                          - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler


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                                        • John Mead
                                          The shop doing the dynamic balancing has the dummy weights and use them as needed. I just supply the crank,rods,bearings,pistons,rings,clips etc. and they do
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 14, 2007
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                                            The shop doing the dynamic balancing has the dummy weights and
                                            use them as needed. I just supply the
                                            crank,rods,bearings,pistons,rings,clips etc. and they do the
                                            job.
                                            John Mead
                                            --- Ian <iwd@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            > >Have it dynamically balanced.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > You still need the BF to make the dummy weights.
                                            >
                                            > Only bike cranks you can dynamically balance without dummy
                                            > wts & knowing the BF, are 4 cyl cranks. ( OK - CBX1000
                                            > cranks as well I suppose )
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Cheers IAN
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > > I am glad this subject has come up again, as I am
                                            > > > wrestling with the planing stages of an 76 degree BSA A10
                                            > > > motor, is there a mathmatical formula to get to a starting
                                            > > > point for the balance factor. I have been looking for a
                                            > while
                                            > > > and haven't come up with anything except this are that
                                            > balance
                                            > > > factor works for me.
                                            >
                                            > See www.drysdalev8.com for :
                                            > - Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
                                            > - DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
                                            > - Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
                                            > - Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler
                                            >
                                            >
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