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Re: turbines and stuff

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  • Paul Friday
    In message , Mike Kilty ... Yes on the turbine stuff, by the way. What about a positive pressure blower - aka
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 31, 2001
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      In message <733983E179B9D31181730090279368C417C360@HS01>, Mike Kilty
      <mkilty@...> wrote:
      >The reason I was thinking of turbines is that some mates were designing
      >a 125 sidecar outfit for the Moped Mayhem endurance race this year. But
      >they want a turbocharger,

      Yes on the turbine stuff, by the way.

      What about a positive pressure blower - aka supercharger?
      Easy to drive with a belt off the crank.
      Easy to change the gearing/speed.
      Easier to match to the size of the engine.
      Less likely to surge or stall.
      More grunt at low revs, which may be what you want for a combo.
      And if it's on a two-stroke, you could feed oil into the inlet to
      lubricate the blower.
      They are also simpler beasts - you could make your own vane-type one, or
      one of the VW 'wobbling scroll' jobs.

      And if you were really slick, you would use the variable belt drive off
      a scooter to reduce the supercharger speed as the revs went up.

      ----------------------------
      Paul Friday
    • Mike Kilty
      ... Yes to which part of it - impossible and expensive, or that I will find something useful on a scrap heap?? ... Actually, not a bad idea - I could butcher a
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
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        > >The reason I was thinking of turbines is that some mates
        > were designing
        > >a 125 sidecar outfit for the Moped Mayhem endurance race
        > this year. But
        > >they want a turbocharger,
        >
        > Yes on the turbine stuff, by the way.
        >

        Yes to which part of it - impossible and expensive, or that I will find
        something useful on a scrap heap??

        > What about a positive pressure blower - aka supercharger?

        Actually, not a bad idea - I could butcher a blower from a small turbo,
        with a pulley to the crankshaft like you say, in place of the turbine
        ... only complication is pressure control - one way might be by blowing
        excess pressure off to atmosphere via a valve rather than pulling a
        waste gate on the drive side to reduce flow to the turbine as per turbo
        mode ? Or short circuit the excess back to the input side (less energy
        wasted?)

        I don't really know much about turbos/superchargers - do you think a 125
        will lose more trying to drive the compressor than it will gain in
        boost? It will be a 4 stroke by the way


        Mike Kilty
      • Jim Schneider
        Mike, You might want to look at this stuff. http://www.hscsupercharger.com/ Swiss ... From: Mike Kilty To:
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
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          Mike,
          You might want to look at this stuff.
          http://www.hscsupercharger.com/

          Swiss
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Mike Kilty" <mkilty@...>
          To: <mc-engine@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:42 AM
          Subject: RE: turbines and stuff


          > >The reason I was thinking of turbines is that some mates
          > were designing
          > >a 125 sidecar outfit for the Moped Mayhem endurance race
          > this year. But
          > >they want a turbocharger,
          >
          > Yes on the turbine stuff, by the way.
          >

          Yes to which part of it - impossible and expensive, or that I will find
          something useful on a scrap heap??

          > What about a positive pressure blower - aka supercharger?

          Actually, not a bad idea - I could butcher a blower from a small turbo,
          with a pulley to the crankshaft like you say, in place of the turbine
          ... only complication is pressure control - one way might be by blowing
          excess pressure off to atmosphere via a valve rather than pulling a
          waste gate on the drive side to reduce flow to the turbine as per turbo
          mode ? Or short circuit the excess back to the input side (less energy
          wasted?)

          I don't really know much about turbos/superchargers - do you think a 125
          will lose more trying to drive the compressor than it will gain in
          boost? It will be a 4 stroke by the way


          Mike Kilty



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        • Mike Kilty
          yeah - thinking some more it might be hard to drive a turbo compressor fast enough with a mechanical coupling anyway. It is just a question of working out what
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
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            yeah - thinking some more it might be hard to drive a turbo compressor
            fast enough with a mechanical coupling anyway. It is just a question of
            working out what size it needs to be to work properly ... and then
            finding one that size

            I think I can set up electronic control of it easy enough


            Mike Kilty


            > >will lose more trying to drive the compressor than it will gain in
            > >boost? It will be a 4 stroke by the way
            >
            > Turbocharger is more efficient and a lot easier to hang.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Hoyt
          • Alan Lapp
            ... LOL... True, but not as easy a Nitrous Oxide... -- Alan Lapp ... Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
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              >At 09:42 AM 8/3/01 +0100, you wrote:
              >>will lose more trying to drive the compressor than it will gain in
              >>boost? It will be a 4 stroke by the way
              >
              >Turbocharger is more efficient and a lot easier to hang.

              LOL... True, but not as easy a Nitrous Oxide...
              --


              Alan Lapp
              ---------------
              Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.
            • Mike Kilty
              ... hmm .. think that might give problems on a 3 hour endurance race! Mike Kilty
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
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                > >Turbocharger is more efficient and a lot easier to hang.
                >
                > LOL... True, but not as easy a Nitrous Oxide...
                > --
                >

                hmm .. think that might give problems on a 3 hour endurance race!


                Mike Kilty
              • Alan Lapp
                ... Used judiciously (i.e. to occasionally blow past the competition on a straight) with appropriate fuel enrichment, it shouldn t be too bad. If you were to
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
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                  > > >Turbocharger is more efficient and a lot easier to hang.
                  >>
                  >> LOL... True, but not as easy a Nitrous Oxide...
                  >> --
                  >>
                  >
                  >hmm .. think that might give problems on a 3 hour endurance race!

                  Used judiciously (i.e. to occasionally blow past the competition on a
                  straight) with appropriate fuel enrichment, it shouldn't be too bad.
                  If you were to run it continuously, yes, bad...
                  --


                  Alan Lapp
                  ---------------
                  Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.
                • james ray crenshaw
                  ... NO!!! Don t waste it! Vent the pop-off pressure into the inlet of another turbo, mounted in series with th... ... oh, never mind. jrc
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
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                    > I could butcher a blower from a small
                    > turbo, with a pulley to the crankshaft

                    > ... only complication is pressure control
                    > one way might be by blowing excess pressure
                    > off to atmosphere via a valve

                    NO!!! Don't waste it! Vent the pop-off pressure into the inlet of another
                    turbo, mounted in series with th...

                    ... oh, never mind.

                    jrc
                  • Greg Dunn
                    I know there was a company a short while ago that had an electric motor setup to spool up turbos much faster & I think they got it to the point it could be run
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
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                      I know there was a company a short while ago that had an electric motor setup to spool up turbos much faster & I think they got it to the point it could be run as the sole driver of the compressor wheel - no exhaust turbine.  can't think of the name now, but I remember talking to them at the SEMA expo a few years ago. 
                       
                      Interesting.
                       
                      Greg
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      yeah - thinking some more it might be hard to drive a turbo compressor
                      fast enough with a mechanical coupling anyway. It is just a question of
                      working out what size it needs to be to work properly ... and then
                      finding one that size

                      I think I can set up electronic control of it easy enough


                      Mike Kilty


                      > >will lose more trying to drive the compressor than it will gain in
                      > >boost? It will be a 4 stroke by the way
                      >
                      > Turbocharger is more efficient and a lot easier to hang.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Hoyt

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                    • batwings@i-plus.net
                      ... Turbocharger is more efficient and a lot easier to hang. Regards, Hoyt Belfab CNC - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html Best MC Repair -
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
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                        At 09:42 AM 8/3/01 +0100, you wrote:
                        >will lose more trying to drive the compressor than it will gain in
                        >boost? It will be a 4 stroke by the way

                        Turbocharger is more efficient and a lot easier to hang.

                        Regards,

                        Hoyt

                        Belfab CNC - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
                        Best MC Repair - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
                        Camping/Caving - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
                        Ten Myths - http://www.iwf.org/news/010417.shtml
                        God shot off a cherry bomb and there was a Big Bang.
                      • Paul Friday
                        In message , Mike Kilty ... There are two places that excess bost will get you: under braking and at high revs.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 5, 2001
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                          In message <733983E179B9D31181730090279368C417C37B@HS01>, Mike Kilty
                          <mkilty@...> wrote:
                          >... only complication is pressure control - one way might be by blowing
                          >excess pressure off to atmosphere via a valve rather than pulling a
                          >waste gate on the drive side to reduce flow to the turbine as per turbo
                          >mode ? Or short circuit the excess back to the input side (less energy
                          >wasted?)
                          There are two places that excess bost will get you: under braking and at
                          high revs.

                          Mercedes used to fit their blowers with a special clutch, to kill the
                          drive and let the supercharger spin down when braking.

                          I've no idea how they limited the boost - probably a mixture of luck and
                          short inlet timing.

                          For braking control
                          You might just get away with fitting the carb upstream of the blower, so
                          it chokes the inlet. Make sure it's a flatslide one, though, because
                          round slides can jam under high vacuum (shades of Bentley). Or fit the
                          carb upstream of the blower, and then use a rotating barrel affair like
                          the flash racing engines have between the blower and the engine.
                          Another simple idea would be to use a hinged tension roller on the drive
                          belt to the blower, and slacken the belt to kill the boost. Couple it to
                          the rear brake pedal?

                          For boost control
                          There was a blower kit for bikes that I remember from the ... 70s? It
                          used a flat belt for the drive and varied the tension to limit the
                          boost.
                          Why not try that? Forget the rear brake pedal idea, use a left twistgrip
                          instead. Both grips forward to stop, both back to go, left one forward
                          to avoid detonation at top speed.

                          ----------------------------
                          Paul Friday
                        • Mike Kilty
                          ... motor setup to spool up ... as the sole driver of ... now, but I remember ... Interesting. That s given me an idea for some experiments, to test the flow
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
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                            > I know there was a company a short while ago that had an electric
                            motor setup to spool up
                            > turbos much faster & I think they got it to the point it could be run
                            as the sole driver of
                            > the compressor wheel - no exhaust turbine. can't think of the name
                            now, but I remember
                            > talking to them at the SEMA expo a few years ago.


                            Interesting. That's given me an idea for some experiments, to test the
                            flow rate characteristics of the compressors. Thanks


                            Mike Kilty
                          • Mike Kilty
                            ... .. an alternator, which dumps its power into a water heater - might be enough for a cup of tea at the end of the race?? That s my kind of energy recovery
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
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                              > NO!!! Don't waste it! Vent the pop-off pressure into the
                              > inlet of another
                              > turbo, mounted in series with ...
                              >

                              .. an alternator, which dumps its power into a water heater - might be
                              enough for a cup of tea at the end of the race??

                              That's my kind of energy recovery system!


                              Mike Kilty
                            • bec
                              ... Belts will not last very long if you make them slip. I think that the best solutio would be to drive the blower off the cam chain and put the
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
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                                > For boost control
                                > There was a blower kit for bikes that I remember from the ... 70s? It
                                > used a flat belt for the drive and varied the tension to limit the
                                > boost.

                                Belts will not last very long if you make them slip.
                                I think that the best solutio would be to drive the blower off the cam chain
                                and put the butterfly/throttle body/carb on the suction side of the blower.
                                On a production bike it would look really neat.

                                > Why not try that? Forget the rear brake pedal idea, use a left twistgrip
                                > instead. Both grips forward to stop, both back to go, left one forward
                                > to avoid detonation at top speed.

                                The only problem with that is that on a bumpy ride you could end up doing
                                some nasty work to it.
                                Some times I go over some small woops and I can hear the engine trying to
                                change revs as I twist the throttle (unintentionally) due to the shaking of
                                the bike.

                                Francisco
                              • Alan Lapp
                                ... Al, mixing these types of chemicals was something that was commonly done in the 1960 s in drag racing in So. Cal and probably eleswhere. Before my time
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 11, 2001
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                                  About the fuel question... This is my friends' response:

                                  ---------

                                  Al, mixing these types of chemicals was something that was commonly
                                  done in the 1960's in drag racing in So. Cal and probably eleswhere.
                                  Before my "time" but I remember the old guys talking about doing this
                                  type of expermentation without any consistent results--several
                                  stories were told about the difficutly of getting rid of the fuel
                                  mixture after the race was over, apparently I could not be stored in
                                  any type of container metal or plastic (plastics were fairly new in
                                  the 60's) some people just poured the stuff out at the track and I
                                  have heard that It can eat a hole in concrete. Also these types of
                                  mixtures were very unstable and often blew up for no apparent reason.
                                  I think the general consensus was that a well-tuned
                                  engine/fuel/ignition system could consistantly run on methanol or a
                                  percentage of methanol and nitro. That's the extent of my knowledge.
                                  Tracy...
                                  --


                                  Alan Lapp
                                  ---------------
                                  Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.
                                • Bj.O.rn
                                  I have heard similar stories from back when fuel was free in miniature tether car racing... Engines selfdestructing on the bench.. Allso some rather nasty
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 11, 2001
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                                    I have heard similar stories from back when fuel was free in miniature tether car racing... Engines selfdestructing on the bench.. Allso some rather nasty accidents with nitromethane/hydrazine mixes in drag racing... nitromethane/hydrazine+time = BOOM! It did boost power quite a bit though... I think there was a write up on the potentially lethal nitromethane/hydrazine mix on http://www.wheelbase.com/ I wouldn't go anywhere near it.. Not healthy at all...

                                    /Bj.O.rn, SDK #1225
                                    http://w1.111.telia.com/~u11103525/ (SCR restoration page)

                                    > have heard that It can eat a hole in concrete. Also these types of
                                    > mixtures were very unstable and often blew up for no apparent reason.
                                  • David
                                    I remember the late Graham Hill started racing with an old Austin A30 in the early fifties and he used a nitromethane mix which was illegal and wetting himself
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 12, 2001
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                                      I remember the late Graham Hill started racing with an old Austin A30 in
                                      the early fifties and he used a nitromethane mix which was illegal and
                                      wetting himself in case he was rumbled, if you were behind the car on
                                      the starting grid the exhaust fumes made your eyes water.

                                      David.

                                      "Bj.O.rn" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I have heard similar stories from back when fuel was free in miniature tether car racing... Engines selfdestructing on the bench.. Allso some rather nasty accidents with nitromethane/hydrazine mixes in drag racing... nitromethane/hydrazine+time = BOOM! It did boost power quite a bit though... I think there was a write up on the potentially lethal nitromethane/hydrazine mix on http://www.wheelbase.com/ I wouldn't go anywhere near it.. Not healthy at all...
                                      >
                                      > /Bj.O.rn, SDK #1225
                                      > http://w1.111.telia.com/~u11103525/ (SCR restoration page)
                                      >
                                      > > have heard that It can eat a hole in concrete. Also these types of
                                      > > mixtures were very unstable and often blew up for no apparent reason.
                                      >
                                      > unsubscribe: mailto:mc-engine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    • bec
                                      ... tether car racing... Engines selfdestructing on the bench.. Allso some rather nasty accidents with nitromethane/hydrazine mixes in drag racing...
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Aug 12, 2001
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                                        > I have heard similar stories from back when fuel was free in miniature
                                        tether car racing... Engines selfdestructing on the bench.. Allso some
                                        rather nasty accidents with nitromethane/hydrazine mixes in drag racing...
                                        nitromethane/hydrazine+time = BOOM! It did boost power quite a bit though...
                                        I think there was a write up on the potentially lethal
                                        nitromethane/hydrazine mix on http://www.wheelbase.com/ I wouldn't go
                                        anywhere near it.. Not healthy at all...

                                        Some old rocket engines worked on hydrazine and hydrogen peroxide. Really
                                        powerful but would blow up readily. The peroxide provided the oxygen so no
                                        air was required.

                                        Those engines killed more pilots than the enemy shooting at the planes.

                                        Francisco
                                      • Paul Friday
                                        If you are after alcohol blends, look in the back of Tuning for Speed, there s a whole table of them. Here s a taste: Shell A Methanol 96%, acetone 4%, trace
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Aug 14, 2001
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                                          If you are after alcohol blends, look in the back of Tuning for Speed,
                                          there's a whole table of them.

                                          Here's a taste:

                                          Shell A
                                          Methanol 96%, acetone 4%, trace of castor oil. Use 15:1 CR and increase
                                          carb jet flow by around 200%

                                          Esso No 5
                                          Methanol 80%, Ethanol 10%, acetone 5%, petrol 5%. Use 13.5:1 CR and
                                          increase jet flow by around 125%

                                          ----------------------------
                                          Paul Friday
                                        • David Kath
                                          Paul ... Thanks a bunch! You ve pointed out a source of info I/we ve been looking for. Sheeze, right under our nose too... dave - NV
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Aug 15, 2001
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                                            Paul ... Thanks a bunch! You've pointed out a source of info I/we've been
                                            looking for. Sheeze, right under our nose too...
                                            dave - NV

                                            Paul Friday wrote:

                                            > If you are after alcohol blends, look in the back of Tuning for Speed,
                                            > there's a whole table of them.
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