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Re: aluminum head alloy and heat treatment

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  • Grog
    Rohan, I ve known and raced against Bob for longer than I care to remember. I certainly know of his work. He has passed a few people on to me to do motorcycle
    Message 1 of 22 , May 1, 2006
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      Rohan,
      I've known and raced against Bob for longer than I care to remember. I
      certainly know of his work. He has passed a few people on to me to do
      motorcycle repair/rebuild work in the last year because he was too busy.
      He still does batches of stuff and some one-off specials but his general
      engineering business seems to keep him flat out these days...and I expect
      somewhat more profitably than business from us tight-walleted racers!...lol
      I believe he uses a few foundries, depending on what metal he requires, I
      think the place in Dandenong os the best one for magnesium parts, but we
      have at least one good ally foundry here in Adelaide.
      My Manx 4ls front hub replica bits were cast in Victoria, my mate organised
      that, but with changes to the patterns and machining techniques the ally
      ones are now lighter than the magnesium ones and the braking performance is
      better too.
      Greg

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    • Grog
      So, This is the best alloy that you know of that is available for low volume castings here in Oz Ian? I ve looked around to see what places interstate offer,
      Message 2 of 22 , May 1, 2006
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        So, This is the best alloy that you know of that is available for low volume
        castings here in Oz Ian?
        I've looked around to see what places interstate offer, but it is hard to
        cover them all....and in my experience you often do not get the right info
        over the phone.
        Thanks,
        Greg
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      • D.M.Co.
        ... Shrink in cast iron seats - not sure of the grade I use, the color bars have worn off it and I m nearly out of it ( had it for 20 years ), I ll have to
        Message 3 of 22 , May 1, 2006
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          >On the subject of self-cast heads, what is the best material for valve seats for no-lead
          >gas? (It's for a street-bike) and what is the best method to place the seats? Cast in situ or
          >shrink fit?


          Shrink in cast iron seats - not sure of the grade I use, the color bars
          have worn off it and I'm nearly out of it ( had it for 20 years ), I'll have
          to find out what it is again. ( It' not grey C.I. )

          There are all sorts of things you can use for seats, but most of the
          Jap bikes all use a high grade C.I..



          Cheers IAN


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        • Grog
          Greg, Ummmm....I dunno. I cheat and fit ones from automotive catalogues that my car engine reconditioning mate has. He gets em in for me and we machine
          Message 4 of 22 , May 1, 2006
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            Greg,
            Ummmm....I dunno.
            I cheat and fit ones from automotive catalogues that my car engine
            reconditioning mate has. He gets em in for me and we machine everything.
            Same thing with guides...all using his Serdi valve and guide machining
            centre.
            I don't muck around any more with seat cutters, lapping and other hand work
            when such great accurate and fast equipment and methods are available to me
            these days.
            Don't waste time with cast in ones...too hard and quite uneccessary and I
            cannot think of any advantage, other than possibly better heat transfer?
            Sorry,
            Greg (That's my real name....I had to use 'Grog' because someone else had
            'my' username!!!!...lol)

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          • RohanB
            ... Greg (That s my real name....I had to use Grog because someone else had my username!!!!...lol) ... You can use whatever name you want on your email -
            Message 5 of 22 , May 1, 2006
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              >>
              Greg (That's my real name....I had to use 'Grog' because someone else had
              'my' username!!!!...lol)
              -----------

              You can use whatever name you want on your email - Yahoo doesn't take any
              notice of that.

              Cheers,
              Rohan.
            • D.M.Co.
              ... I assume that you are referring to Magnesium Technologies ? They used to be in Dandenong, but moved to Coburg about 6 years ago. Then the partners split
              Message 6 of 22 , May 1, 2006
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                >I
                >think the place in Dandenong os the best one for magnesium parts



                I assume that you are referring to Magnesium Technologies ? They
                used to be in Dandenong, but moved to Coburg about 6 years ago.
                Then the partners split up and Paul started Coburg Castings, which
                in turn morphed into Dingo Magnesium.

                So for mag castings ( they do aluminium too ) , you have the choice
                of Magtech or Dingo, I use Dingo but I've no doubt that Magtech will
                still do a good job.



                Cheers IAN


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              • D.M.Co.
                ... I use LM25-T6 for everything I get done - it s a very good material, strong, good to machine and good to weld. You should really get it retempered if you
                Message 7 of 22 , May 1, 2006
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                  >So, This is the best alloy that you know of that is available for low volume
                  >castings here in Oz Ian?



                  I use LM25-T6 for everything I get done - it's a very good material,
                  strong, good to machine and good to weld. You should really get
                  it retempered if you weld it in T6 state, but a small weld only affects
                  a small area, I usualy don't bother.

                  BTW - make sure you use the right filler rod, the most commonly
                  used GP filler rod won't temper up with the rest of the part.




                  Cheers IAN


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                • Grog
                  Thanks for the confirmation of what I d found out so far Ian. It seems I will continue to use LM 25 for my parts. By GP welding rod I reckon you d be
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 2, 2006
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                    Thanks for the confirmation of what I'd found out so far Ian.
                    It seems I will continue to use LM 25 for my parts.

                    By 'GP welding rod' I reckon you'd be referring to something like 4043?

                    I've used 4047 filler which has high Si (12%) with 0.1%Mg.
                    This goes some way to matching the l high Si/Mg alloy that my ESO heads are
                    made from and I would say it is suitable for similar alloys like
                    LM25.....but I would like to confirm if there is a more suitable filler,
                    maybe with a higher Mg content.

                    The castings I weld are have 9.55%Si and 0.31% Mg so maybe 4643 might be
                    better....
                    I'll contact BOH or similar some time soon I guess.

                    I know that additional Mg from the casting infiltrates the welded area
                    during the solution heat treatment and increases the amount of Mg2Si in the
                    weld area which gives the hardness and other desirable characteristics.

                    Because of this I would imagine that it would be beneficial to run the
                    solution treatment for much longer than would be normal for treating a fresh
                    cast item. How much longer is a guess of course, so I doubled it .... and
                    so far it seems okay.

                    Unfortunately I've been unable to confirm my solution treatment times by
                    checking the hardness of the weld against the larger part of the casting to
                    confirm this because the I need a small flat surface to check but all my
                    welded surface is curved.
                    I should find someone who can test it for me I guess.

                    Thanks again,
                    Greg
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                  • D.M.Co.
                    ... 90% of TIG & MIG wire sold is 5356 ( 5% Mg ), it is general purpose , good for castings and wrought welding, but it will not temper up if you are
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 3, 2006
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                      >By 'GP welding rod' I reckon you'd be referring to something like 4043?



                      90% of TIG & MIG wire sold is "5356" ( 5% Mg ), it is "general purpose",
                      good for castings and wrought welding, but it will not temper up if you are
                      getting castings HT'd after welding. It will also come out a slightly
                      different color than the parent when anodised.

                      If a foundary needs to weld up a blow hole or other void in LM25 / 6061,
                      they will use a "4043" ( 5 % Si ) filler rod - it tempers up almost as well
                      as the parent metal.



                      >The castings I weld are have 9.55%Si and 0.31% Mg so maybe 4643 might be
                      >better....


                      The closer you can get to the parent metal the better.



                      Cheers IAN


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                    • S Young
                      Ian, Is it economical to get castings made of motorcycle engnie parts like z900 altenator covers and points covers etc ? What are the cost areas that need to
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 3, 2006
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                        Ian,

                        Is it economical to get castings made of motorcycle engnie parts like z900 altenator covers and points covers etc ?

                        What are the cost areas that need to be considered ?

                        Sid Young
                        Brisbane



                        On 5/2/06, D.M.Co. <iwd@...> wrote:

                        >I
                        >think the place in Dandenong os the best one for magnesium parts



                        I assume that you are referring to Magnesium Technologies ?  They
                        used to be in Dandenong, but moved to Coburg about 6 years ago.
                        Then the partners split up and Paul started Coburg Castings, which
                        in turn morphed into Dingo Magnesium.

                        So for mag castings ( they do aluminium too ) , you have the choice
                        of Magtech or Dingo, I use Dingo but I've no doubt that Magtech will
                        still do a good job.



                        Cheers      IAN


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                      • D.M.Co.
                        ... There are ways to cut corners, you can get a cheap pattern by using a standard cover and building it up on the outside to allow for the shrinkage - it ends
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 3, 2006
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                          >Is it economical to get castings made of motorcycle engnie parts like z900 altenator covers and points covers etc ?
                          >
                          >What are the cost areas that need to be considered ?



                          There are ways to cut corners, you can get a cheap pattern by
                          using a standard cover and building it up on the outside to
                          allow for the shrinkage - it ends up a little thicker but then Mg
                          is only 2/3 the weight of alum.

                          You will need to get a pattern maker to make the patterns, as
                          they need to pull resin moulds off, and do other tricky stuff.
                          I teed up some Laverda covers done by this process, I think the
                          pattern was about $1,000 and each part about $75 to cast,
                          something like that. Then you have to machine it, good job
                          for a CNC mill if you get quantities done ( 6 + ).

                          BTW - a mildly damaged cover is fine for the starting point for
                          the pattern.



                          Cheers IAN


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                        • GStarRon@aol.com
                          In a message dated 5/3/2006 10:26:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, iwd@mira.net ... Your pattern costing is cheaper there, than in the States.. .but your casting
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 3, 2006
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                            In a message dated 5/3/2006 10:26:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, iwd@... writes:

                            There are ways to cut corners, you can get a cheap pattern by
                            using a standard cover and building it up on the outside to
                            allow for the shrinkage - it ends up a little thicker but then Mg
                            is only 2/3 the weight of alum.

                            You will need to get a pattern maker to make the patterns, as
                            they need to pull resin moulds off, and do other tricky stuff.
                            I teed up some Laverda covers done by this process, I think the
                            pattern was about $1,000 and each part about $75 to cast,
                            something like that.   Then you have to machine it, good job
                            for a CNC mill if you get quantities done ( 6 + ).

                            BTW - a mildly damaged cover is fine for the starting point for
                            the pattern.



                            Cheers    IAN


                            >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            Your pattern costing is cheaper there, than in the States.. .but your casting cost is similar.... but then it all depends on how big the part is.... etc....

                            Cheers..!!

                            Ron
                          • Marin California
                            Just what we all need to commute to work or get rolls on Sunday morning. Now if we could just have the manufacturer make a two passenger model so it could be
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 3, 2006
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                              Just what we all need to commute to work or get rolls
                              on Sunday morning. Now if we could just have the
                              manufacturer make a two passenger model so it could be
                              used in the HOV lane.

                              http://metacool.typepad.com/metacool/2006/02/unabashed_gearh.html

                              http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7393939630149644203&q=V10+Engine


                              Ken A



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