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Re: [Maximilien Robespierre] Hi everybody

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  • Anca R
    I subscribe... The only beautiful thing about the French monarchy was the queen s wardrobe. Vanesa Montacuto wrote: I share all
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 1, 2005
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      I subscribe... The only beautiful thing about the French monarchy was the queen's wardrobe.

      Vanesa Montacuto <vmontacuto@...> wrote: I share all Susanna posted in her message...

      Vanesa.
      Susanna Betzel <romanciere@...> escribió:
      Well, Annie, you should know that you won't find many fans of Antoinette
      here.

      As for destroying the French monarchy, Robespierre had very little to do
      with it, as he was not even a member of the government in August 1792,
      merely an influential looker-on, maybe the equivalent of our modern
      political pundits, but scarcely anyone who could have taken down a
      government singlehanded. Louis and Antoinette did an excellent job of
      destroying the monarchy themselves.

      And "the most beautiful monarchy"....????....well, aside from its pretty
      taste in interior decorating, most students of the period would agree
      that--aside from a few of Louis's attempts at reform--the French
      monarchy was just about as corrupt, hidebound, narrowminded, selfish,
      extravagant, and nepotistic as any other court in Europe. Not what I
      call beautiful.

      Susanna
      --
      **********************************************************************
      Susanna Betzel
      As Susanne Alleyn: GAME OF PATIENCE / A Novel
      March 2006 / St. Martin's Press / pre-order now at Amazon.com & save $
      http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/susannealleyn/gameofpatience.html

      "A well-crafted historical mystery, authentic in every
      detail. Wonderfully entertaining."
      --Sandra Gulland, author, the JOSEPHINE B. Trilogy



      Annie Harker wrote:

      > Hello,
      >
      > First, I want you all to know that I am no fan of Robespierre, not at
      > all! I love Marie Antoinette, so I should hate your Incorruptable. But
      > I don't, whereas I don't like him, as well. I just want to see deeper
      > in him, maybe to find out why did he damage so many innocent lives and
      > why did he destroy the most beautiful monarchy in the whole Europe. I
      > do hope this group will be helpful to me!
      >
      >





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    • Annie Harker
      I didn t say I was looking for any fans of Marie Antoinette here! I have only just joined, so I would find out more about Robespierre and won t misjudge him!
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2005
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        I didn't say I was looking for any fans of Marie Antoinette here! I
        have only just joined, so I would find out more about Robespierre
        and won't misjudge him! And I think France was a very nice monarchy,
        and it could have been on and on for longer, if it hadn't been for a
        few lost wars, ignorant monarchs and the revolution. I don't hate
        anybody, because it leads to no good. I liked the monarchy of
        France, because there are many people, who, when you say "french
        court" or "Versailles" automatically connect these with Louis XIV,
        who was, let's say, a good king. He made the french court catch its
        name "beautiful", and though it really was more about dressing and
        behavior, these facts blinded all the bad things about this country.
        And as I said, I'm here to find out the truth. If I'm incorrect in
        saying Robespierre damaged the french monarchy (I admit I haven't
        read any book about him, for I haven't found any here), then I'd be
        delighted to be corrected and for example told, how exactly was the
        thing with his shot cheek at the end. I always thought he did it
        himself, but yesterday I was told that it was someone else?

        Annie

        --- In maximilienrobespierre@yahoogroups.com, Anca R
        <ancax2003@y...> wrote:
        >
        > I subscribe... The only beautiful thing about the French monarchy
        was the queen's wardrobe.
        >
        > Vanesa Montacuto <vmontacuto@y...> wrote: I share all Susanna
        posted in her message...
        >
        > Vanesa.
        > Susanna Betzel <romanciere@s...> escribió:
        > Well, Annie, you should know that you won't find many fans of
        Antoinette
        > here.
        >
        > As for destroying the French monarchy, Robespierre had very little
        to do
        > with it, as he was not even a member of the government in August
        1792,
        > merely an influential looker-on, maybe the equivalent of our
        modern
        > political pundits, but scarcely anyone who could have taken down a
        > government singlehanded. Louis and Antoinette did an excellent
        job of
        > destroying the monarchy themselves.
        >
        > And "the most beautiful monarchy"....????....well, aside from its
        pretty
        > taste in interior decorating, most students of the period would
        agree
        > that--aside from a few of Louis's attempts at reform--the French
        > monarchy was just about as corrupt, hidebound, narrowminded,
        selfish,
        > extravagant, and nepotistic as any other court in Europe. Not
        what I
        > call beautiful.
        >
        > Susanna
        > --
        >
        *********************************************************************
        *
        > Susanna Betzel
        > As Susanne Alleyn: GAME OF PATIENCE / A Novel
        > March 2006 / St. Martin's Press / pre-order now at Amazon.com &
        save $
        > http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/susannealleyn/gameofpatience.html
        >
        > "A well-crafted historical mystery, authentic in every
        > detail. Wonderfully entertaining."
        > --Sandra Gulland, author, the JOSEPHINE B. Trilogy
        >
        >
        >
        > Annie Harker wrote:
        >
        > > Hello,
        > >
        > > First, I want you all to know that I am no fan of Robespierre,
        not at
        > > all! I love Marie Antoinette, so I should hate your
        Incorruptable. But
        > > I don't, whereas I don't like him, as well. I just want to see
        deeper
        > > in him, maybe to find out why did he damage so many innocent
        lives and
        > > why did he destroy the most beautiful monarchy in the whole
        Europe. I
        > > do hope this group will be helpful to me!
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        > Visit your group "maximilienrobespierre" on the web.
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > maximilienrobespierre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > 1GB gratis, Antivirus y Antispam
        > Correo Yahoo!, el mejor correo web del mundo
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        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > SPONSORED LINKS
        > History of the Used car history Credit history Car
        history Vehicle history
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        > Visit your group "maximilienrobespierre" on the web.
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > maximilienrobespierre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Vanesa Montacuto
        Anca R escribió: I subscribe... The only beautiful thing about the French monarchy was the queen s wardrobe. Yes..And she was a very
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2005
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          Anca R <ancax2003@...> escribió: I subscribe... The only beautiful thing about the French monarchy was the queen's wardrobe.
          Yes..And she was a very impressing one! I really like her clothes and hairdoss.

          Vanesa.

          Vanesa Montacuto <vmontacuto@...> wrote: I share all Susanna posted in her message...

          Vanesa.
          Susanna Betzel <romanciere@...> escribió:
          Well, Annie, you should know that you won't find many fans of Antoinette
          here.

          As for destroying the French monarchy, Robespierre had very little to do
          with it, as he was not even a member of the government in August 1792,
          merely an influential looker-on, maybe the equivalent of our modern
          political pundits, but scarcely anyone who could have taken down a
          government singlehanded. Louis and Antoinette did an excellent job of
          destroying the monarchy themselves.

          And "the most beautiful monarchy"....????....well, aside from its pretty
          taste in interior decorating, most students of the period would agree
          that--aside from a few of Louis's attempts at reform--the French
          monarchy was just about as corrupt, hidebound, narrowminded, selfish,
          extravagant, and nepotistic as any other court in Europe. Not what I
          call beautiful.

          Susanna
          --
          **********************************************************************
          Susanna Betzel
          As Susanne Alleyn: GAME OF PATIENCE / A Novel
          March 2006 / St. Martin's Press / pre-order now at Amazon.com & save $
          http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/susannealleyn/gameofpatience.html

          "A well-crafted historical mystery, authentic in every
          detail. Wonderfully entertaining."
          --Sandra Gulland, author, the JOSEPHINE B. Trilogy



          Annie Harker wrote:

          > Hello,
          >
          > First, I want you all to know that I am no fan of Robespierre, not at
          > all! I love Marie Antoinette, so I should hate your Incorruptable. But
          > I don't, whereas I don't like him, as well. I just want to see deeper
          > in him, maybe to find out why did he damage so many innocent lives and
          > why did he destroy the most beautiful monarchy in the whole Europe. I
          > do hope this group will be helpful to me!
          >
          >





          ---------------------------------
          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


          Visit your group "maximilienrobespierre" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          maximilienrobespierre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          ---------------------------------








          ---------------------------------
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          Correo Yahoo!, el mejor correo web del mundo
          Abrí tu cuenta aquí

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          SPONSORED LINKS
          History of the Used car history Credit history Car history Vehicle history

          ---------------------------------
          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


          Visit your group "maximilienrobespierre" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          maximilienrobespierre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          ---------------------------------






          ---------------------------------
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          ---------------------------------
          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


          Visit your group "maximilienrobespierre" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          maximilienrobespierre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          ---------------------------------








          ---------------------------------
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          Abrí tu cuenta aquí

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Axel
          Well so that Annie isn t all alone, I think there are compendable aspects to the French monarchy of the 1780s. I think it is fair to say that as one who
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 1, 2005
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            Well so that Annie isn't all alone, I think there are compendable
            aspects to the French monarchy of the 1780s.

            I think it is fair to say that as one who happily lives in a modern
            democracy, because the moanrchy of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette was
            part of the enlightened despotism of the late 18th century, which saw
            a betterment in the lives of citizenry, and in many ways the Franche
            of 1789 was much better off than the France of 1815, after the
            Revolution and Napoleonic Wars took their final toll on that nation.

            In offering this modest praise to that Bourbon monarchy, I summon
            support in an analagous situation from one of the greatest heros of
            modern pariliamentary democracy Winston Churchill. In the first
            pages of his opening volume to the History of World War II, Churchill
            speaks commendably about Marie Antoinette's birth monarchy, the
            Austro-Hungarian Empire, and laments its demise in 1918 as part of
            the Wilsonian push to democratize central Europe.

            Churchill felt Europe was much better off with the monarchies than
            with the vaccum that followed. That lesson was well learned by
            perhaps one of history's greatest student practioners Harry Truman
            when the trimphant democracy of all democracies the USA chose to
            leave in place the one monarchy it conquered the Empire of Japan -
            Hirohito was left on the throne - and by not destroying all that went
            before and keeping the continuity, the USA, Japan and the world
            beenfited.

            Most in this group can heap scorn on the Bourbon monarchy of Louis
            and Antoinette, but I suggest to you the situation for the French
            peasanty and middle classes was much improved in 1789 than it had
            been in 1750, and that progress would have continued and France might
            have reached the same progress with much less bloodshed had
            accomodate been reached between the king and third estate.

            So while I agree with Anca - Yes! the Queen's wardrobe was a
            beautiful thing to behold - there are other positive aspects to the
            monarchy of the 18th century, especially when one takes account of
            the enormous toll on French manhood that the Revolution and
            especially the excesses of the Napoleonic Wars (invasion of Russia)
            would in time exact.


            Axel
            Moderator
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Images_of_Marie_Antoinette/



            --- In maximilienrobespierre@yahoogroups.com, Anca R <ancax2003@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I subscribe... The only beautiful thing about the French monarchy
            was the queen's wardrobe.
            >
            > Vanesa Montacuto <vmontacuto@y...> wrote: I share all Susanna
            posted in her message...
            >
            > Vanesa.
            > Susanna Betzel <romanciere@s...> escribió:
            > Well, Annie, you should know that you won't find many fans of
            Antoinette
            > here.
            >
            > As for destroying the French monarchy, Robespierre had very little
            to do
            > with it, as he was not even a member of the government in August
            1792,
            > merely an influential looker-on, maybe the equivalent of our modern
            > political pundits, but scarcely anyone who could have taken down a
            > government singlehanded. Louis and Antoinette did an excellent job
            of
            > destroying the monarchy themselves.
            >
            > And "the most beautiful monarchy"....????....well, aside from its
            pretty
            > taste in interior decorating, most students of the period would
            agree
            > that--aside from a few of Louis's attempts at reform--the French
            > monarchy was just about as corrupt, hidebound, narrowminded,
            selfish,
            > extravagant, and nepotistic as any other court in Europe. Not what
            I
            > call beautiful.
            >
            > Susanna
            > --
            >
            **********************************************************************
            > Susanna Betzel
            > As Susanne Alleyn: GAME OF PATIENCE / A Novel
            > March 2006 / St. Martin's Press / pre-order now at Amazon.com &
            save $
            > http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/susannealleyn/gameofpatience.html
            >
            > "A well-crafted historical mystery, authentic in every
            > detail. Wonderfully entertaining."
            > --Sandra Gulland, author, the JOSEPHINE B. Trilogy
            >
            >
            >
            > Annie Harker wrote:
            >
            > > Hello,
            > >
            > > First, I want you all to know that I am no fan of Robespierre,
            not at
            > > all! I love Marie Antoinette, so I should hate your
            Incorruptable. But
            > > I don't, whereas I don't like him, as well. I just want to see
            deeper
            > > in him, maybe to find out why did he damage so many innocent
            lives and
            > > why did he destroy the most beautiful monarchy in the whole
            Europe. I
            > > do hope this group will be helpful to me!
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            > Visit your group "maximilienrobespierre" on the web.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > maximilienrobespierre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > 1GB gratis, Antivirus y Antispam
            > Correo Yahoo!, el mejor correo web del mundo
            > Abrí tu cuenta aquí
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS
            > History of the Used car history Credit history Car
            history Vehicle history
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            > Visit your group "maximilienrobespierre" on the web.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > maximilienrobespierre-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • luonnotar1065
            Hello, I ve been lurking here for a while, but haven t joined yet because it doesn t seem to see much activity. However, I would like to reply to the post
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 4, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello, I've been lurking here for a while, but haven't joined yet
              because it doesn't seem to see much activity. However, I would like
              to reply to the post below.

              First, it is true to say that certain improvements did take place in
              France under Louis. He was basically a well-meaning man, and had he
              had better advice, he might well have made better decisions than he
              did, like accepting a constitutional monarchy (I have nothing in
              particular against constitutional monarchy). "Enlightened despotism"
              though? Well, was there ever really such a thing? "Enlightened"
              despots were only enlightened when there was no threat to their
              power. Even Thomas Carlyle - no admirer of democracy, remember -
              mentions in his French Revolution that the numbers sentenced to
              death by the PAris tribunal "..is not far from the 200th part of
              what perished in the entire Seven years war. By which Seven Years
              War, did not the great Fritz wrench Silesia from the great Theresa;
              and a Pompadour, sting by epigrams, satisfy herself that she could
              not be an Agnes Sorel?"

              However, certainly some reforms had begun in France under Louis'
              reign. Would the process of democratization have continued had an
              accomodation been reached between the King and the third estate?
              Well, the Constituent Assembly did every thing in its power to
              accomodate the King. The constitution of 1791 made him the head of a
              constitutional monarchy, and still left him considerable power.
              (Would you not regard the constitution of 1791 as an "accomodation"?)
              He signed the constitution of 1791 but never really accepted it. He
              did not hesitate to use his veto, unlike the English monarch of that
              time, who had not vetoed a bill passed through Parliament since the
              early 18th century. In fact the calling of the Estates-General, and
              the Third Estate proclaiming themselves the National Assembly was
              only giving to France what had, in a limited way, existed in Great
              Britain for a hundred years previously. We cannot say that progress
              and the process of democritization in France would have continued
              under the Bourbon monarchy, because the French Revolution was that
              process, and the King and Queen resisted it all the way.

              If there was any failure to accomodate, it was on the part of the
              King and Queen. They were the ones who could not accept a
              constitutional monarchy (the only kind which is compatible with
              democracy), and ultimately made the constitution of 1791 unworkable.
              They had repeatedly been in contact with foreign powers hoping to
              stir up war, and the Queen was particularly guilty in this regard. I
              don't think they would ever have countenanced any real change,
              because when it did come, they resisted it all the way.

              It is probably true that the aftermath of the Terror and the
              Napoleonic wars did delay the introduction of democracy to other
              parts of Europe - but possibly not as much as if the French
              Revolution had never happened. Naturally the death toll in 23 years
              of war was tragic, as such things always are. But again, since 18th
              century monarchs regarded war as the sport of Kings, is it not
              likely that such things would have happened anyway, and for far less
              reason? I have already mentioned the death toll in the Seven Years
              War, supposedly between "enlightened" despots. (I'd also like to
              mention here that the death toll in the year of the Terror was
              roughly the number of African slaves who died every year in the 18th
              century on the voyage across the Atlantic alone).

              So all in all, I don't think that Louis and Antoinette would ever
              have countenanced any real change - at best only cosmetic changes.
              And they bear the ultimate blame for the war and the disasters that
              followed.

              best,
              Rose

              --- In maximilienrobespierre@yahoogroups.com, "Axel" <ax71489@y...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Well so that Annie isn't all alone, I think there are compendable
              > aspects to the French monarchy of the 1780s.
              >
              > I think it is fair to say that as one who happily lives in a
              modern
              > democracy, because the moanrchy of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette
              was
              > part of the enlightened despotism of the late 18th century, which
              saw
              > a betterment in the lives of citizenry, and in many ways the
              Franche
              > of 1789 was much better off than the France of 1815, after the
              > Revolution and Napoleonic Wars took their final toll on that
              nation.
              >
              > In offering this modest praise to that Bourbon monarchy, I summon
              > support in an analagous situation from one of the greatest heros
              of
              > modern pariliamentary democracy Winston Churchill. In the first
              > pages of his opening volume to the History of World War II,
              Churchill
              > speaks commendably about Marie Antoinette's birth monarchy, the
              > Austro-Hungarian Empire, and laments its demise in 1918 as part of
              > the Wilsonian push to democratize central Europe.
              >
              > Churchill felt Europe was much better off with the monarchies than
              > with the vaccum that followed. That lesson was well learned by
              > perhaps one of history's greatest student practioners Harry Truman
              > when the trimphant democracy of all democracies the USA chose to
              > leave in place the one monarchy it conquered the Empire of Japan -
              > Hirohito was left on the throne - and by not destroying all that
              went
              > before and keeping the continuity, the USA, Japan and the world
              > beenfited.
              >
              > Most in this group can heap scorn on the Bourbon monarchy of Louis
              > and Antoinette, but I suggest to you the situation for the French
              > peasanty and middle classes was much improved in 1789 than it had
              > been in 1750, and that progress would have continued and France
              might
              > have reached the same progress with much less bloodshed had
              > accomodate been reached between the king and third estate.
              >
              > So while I agree with Anca - Yes! the Queen's wardrobe was a
              > beautiful thing to behold - there are other positive aspects to
              the
              > monarchy of the 18th century, especially when one takes account of
              > the enormous toll on French manhood that the Revolution and
              > especially the excesses of the Napoleonic Wars (invasion of
              Russia)
              > would in time exact.
              >
              >
              > Axel
              > Moderator
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Images_of_Marie_Antoinette/
              >
              >
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