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  • vmontacuto
    Hi, you all, Citoyens and Citoyennes!: I know most of the people here from the saint-Just group, and I m happy to have find this group about Maxime, too...So,
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 12, 2003
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      Hi, you all, Citoyens and Citoyennes!:
      I know most of the people here
      from the saint-Just group, and I'm happy to have find this group
      about Maxime, too...So, I became a member.
      Now, I'm doing an historical
      research about Francois Hanriot, the leader of the National Army in
      Paris, and I decided to asking to you, if you have any biography info
      about him. Yes, I have all the information yet available in
      Michelet , Lamartine, and Taine, but some historians said to me,
      these have too much "made up" infos. I was searching some little
      things about Hanriot life that I can't find. For example:

      1-Was he a servant, as Taine said?
      2-Which was the name of the family whom give him this servant work?
      Taine wrote something about he worked at Formey's family
      house. "Maitre Formey" was an attorney. But the only historian who
      provides a name from the family who employed Hanriot is Taine. I
      cannot find this info in any book but "Origines de la France
      Contemporaine".
      2- Was Hanriot a robber? Taine and Lamartine wrote that he was
      dismissed from his work in the attorney house, because he stealed
      something...I couldn't verify this in any way.
      3- The historian Hilaire Bellocq (who wrote an excellent bio about
      Robespierre) said Hanriot was a street singer and musician...But once
      more, he is the only one saying that, so...
      4-Some dictionnaries said Hanriot was put in jail July 13, for
      putting fire in the Paris "barrieres". He was free after a couple of
      years, for Marat wanted it...I don't know this is true or not...
      5- Lamartine and Michelet said he was always drunk, and that he was a
      coward...But of course, others didn't accept this and said he NEVER
      had been drunk, and was very brave...
      6- G. Lenotre, who hated Robespierre (and of course Hanriot), wrote
      about Hanriot "Aide-de-camps", and name some of them: Deschamps,
      Damour, Boulanger...Taine names another, Turlot...But I couldn't find
      any verification of this in any other book. I could only know a
      little more about Boulanger ( a very wel-know Hébertiste) and
      Deschamps...But as for the others...
      7- My lest question is about Hanriot's death. All the books depicts
      it in different ways. Some people said Coffinhal try to kill him,
      beating him in a very bad way. Poor Hanriot lost an eye when
      Coffinhal attacked him...Other historians said he had an accident,
      falling through a window. (this is a little stupid way to die).
      However, he went to the guillotine in very bad conditions.

      My English is bad, and I have some difficulties trying to explain
      myself in it...Sorry! I'll try to study it better!
      If you may help my finding an answer for some of my question,
      I'll be very thankful...For I searched them for YEARS! ^_^

      Salut et Fraternité!
      Citoyenne Vanesa.
    • Claudia Groiss
      Salut, Vanesa! Nice to see you here. I have always wondered why Robespierre has only one discussion board dedicated to his memory, and this one has been
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 14, 2003
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        Salut, Vanesa!

        Nice to see you here. I have always wondered why Robespierre has only
        one discussion board dedicated to his memory, and this one has been
        virtually dead.

        As to Henriot, I can't help you either. There are hardly any sites on
        the net that mention him. But I'll keep my eyes open for any
        information I might find.

        Claudia
      • Anca R
        Hi Vanesa! I find myself in a rather difficult situation. I don t know very much about Hanriot, and I m not sure if my answers will be helpful. 1-Was he a
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 14, 2003
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          Hi Vanesa!
          I find myself in a rather difficult situation. I don't know very much about Hanriot, and I'm not sure if my "answers" will be helpful.

          1-Was he a servant, as Taine said?

          Damn, I don't know... Victor Hugo also claims he was a servant, and also an acrobat ("saltimbanque", that is...), a thief and a spy before becoming a general.

          2-Which was the name of the family whom give him this servant work?
          Taine wrote something about he worked at Formey's family
          house. "Maitre Formey" was an attorney. But the only historian who
          provides a name from the family who employed Hanriot is Taine. I cannot find this info in any book but "Origines de la France
          Contemporaine".

          I feel so stupid...

          2- Was Hanriot a robber? Taine and Lamartine wrote that he was
          dismissed from his work in the attorney house, because he stealed something...I couldn't verify this in any way.
          3- The historian Hilaire Bellocq (who wrote an excellent bio about Robespierre) said Hanriot was a street singer and musician...But once
          more, he is the only one saying that, so...

          I can't help you with this question either. Hugo claimed he was both!

          4-Some dictionnaries said Hanriot was put in jail July 13, for
          putting fire in the Paris "barrieres". He was free after a couple of years, for Marat wanted it...I don't know this is true or not...

          This is true. Hanriot was emprisoned in 1789 and liberated as a result of a press campaign led by Marat. Good old Jean-Paul!

          5- Lamartine and Michelet said he was always drunk, and that he was a coward...But of course, others didn't accept this and said he NEVER had been drunk, and was very brave...

          I don't think he was a drunk either. Romain Rolland blames the 9th thermidor on him, claiming that he was in a pub instead of commanding his men. He was actually very brave and tried very hard to save Robespierre.

          6- G. Lenotre, who hated Robespierre (and of course Hanriot), wrote about Hanriot "Aide-de-camps", and name some of them: Deschamps, Damour, Boulanger...Taine names another, Turlot...But I couldn't find any verification of this in any other book. I could only know a little more about Boulanger ( a very wel-know H�bertiste) and Deschamps...But as for the others...

          Ah, well, stupid Anca again...

          7- My lest question is about Hanriot's death. All the books depicts it in different ways. Some people said Coffinhal try to kill him, beating him in a very bad way. Poor Hanriot lost an eye when Coffinhal attacked him...Other historians said he had an accident, falling through a window. (this is a little stupid way to die). However, he went to the guillotine in very bad conditions.

          Hanriot couldn't stop his men from leaving his side on the 9th of thermidor. So, Coffinhal thought he was an incapable and I read that it was him who threw Hanriot out the window (here's a new version of the story)

          My English is bad, and I have some difficulties trying to explain
          myself in it...Sorry! I'll try to study it better!

          Your English is very good. I'm sorry for not being helpful. Since I mentioned Victor Hugo, I'd like to ask a question of my own. One of the main characters in "Quatrevingt-treize", Cimourdain, is a member of "L'Eveche". According to Hugo, this was an organisation or something like that, which controlled the actions of the Commune. I'd really like to know if it really existed or if he just made it up...

          Salut et fraternite!
          Citoyenne Anca



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        • Vanesa Montacuto
          Claudia Groiss wrote: Salut, Vanesa! Nice to see you here. I have always wondered why Robespierre has only one discussion board dedicated to
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 15, 2003
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            Claudia Groiss <cgroiss@...> wrote:
            Salut, Vanesa!

            Nice to see you here. I have always wondered why Robespierre has only
            one discussion board dedicated to his memory, and this one has been
            virtually dead.

            As to Henriot, I can't help you either. There are hardly any sites on
            the net that mention him. But I'll keep my eyes open for any
            information I might find.

            Claudia

            Hello, Citoyenne Claudia:

            I don't understand why Robespierre has not so many fan's than Saint-Just. Our Antoine has "something" that Maxime hasn't...What can it be?

            Thank you for your offering of help about Hanriot. You're right. There isn't any about Hanriot in the net...But I must said there is few about the Jacobins in it. You have something about Saint-Just and Robespierre, but that's all I think. I like very much the Philippe Royet site (www.royet.org) , but it is in French and not all people in the boards I'm a member can read it.

            Salut et Fraternité!

            Vanesa.







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          • Vanesa Montacuto
            Anca R wrote: Hi Vanesa! I find myself in a rather difficult situation. I don t know very much about Hanriot, and I m not sure if my
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 15, 2003
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              Anca R <ancax2003@...> wrote:
              Hi Vanesa!
              I find myself in a rather difficult situation. I don't know very much about Hanriot, and I'm not sure if my "answers" will be helpful.

              1-Was he a servant, as Taine said?

              Damn, I don't know... Victor Hugo also claims he was a servant, and also an acrobat ("saltimbanque", that is...), a thief and a spy before becoming a general.

              2-Which was the name of the family whom give him this servant work?
              Taine wrote something about he worked at Formey's family
              house. "Maitre Formey" was an attorney. But the only historian who
              provides a name from the family who employed Hanriot is Taine. I cannot find this info in any book but "Origines de la France
              Contemporaine".

              I feel so stupid...

              2- Was Hanriot a robber? Taine and Lamartine wrote that he was
              dismissed from his work in the attorney house, because he stealed something...I couldn't verify this in any way.
              3- The historian Hilaire Bellocq (who wrote an excellent bio about Robespierre) said Hanriot was a street singer and musician...But once
              more, he is the only one saying that, so...

              I can't help you with this question either. Hugo claimed he was both!

              4-Some dictionnaries said Hanriot was put in jail July 13, for
              putting fire in the Paris "barrieres". He was free after a couple of years, for Marat wanted it...I don't know this is true or not...

              This is true. Hanriot was emprisoned in 1789 and liberated as a result of a press campaign led by Marat. Good old Jean-Paul!

              5- Lamartine and Michelet said he was always drunk, and that he was a coward...But of course, others didn't accept this and said he NEVER had been drunk, and was very brave...

              I don't think he was a drunk either. Romain Rolland blames the 9th thermidor on him, claiming that he was in a pub instead of commanding his men. He was actually very brave and tried very hard to save Robespierre.

              6- G. Lenotre, who hated Robespierre (and of course Hanriot), wrote about Hanriot "Aide-de-camps", and name some of them: Deschamps, Damour, Boulanger...Taine names another, Turlot...But I couldn't find any verification of this in any other book. I could only know a little more about Boulanger ( a very wel-know Hébertiste) and Deschamps...But as for the others...

              Ah, well, stupid Anca again...

              7- My lest question is about Hanriot's death. All the books depicts it in different ways. Some people said Coffinhal try to kill him, beating him in a very bad way. Poor Hanriot lost an eye when Coffinhal attacked him...Other historians said he had an accident, falling through a window. (this is a little stupid way to die). However, he went to the guillotine in very bad conditions.

              Hanriot couldn't stop his men from leaving his side on the 9th of thermidor. So, Coffinhal thought he was an incapable and I read that it was him who threw Hanriot out the window (here's a new version of the story)

              My English is bad, and I have some difficulties trying to explain
              myself in it...Sorry! I'll try to study it better!

              Your English is very good. I'm sorry for not being helpful. Since I mentioned Victor Hugo, I'd like to ask a question of my own. One of the main characters in "Quatrevingt-treize", Cimourdain, is a member of "L'Eveche". According to Hugo, this was an organisation or something like that, which controlled the actions of the Commune. I'd really like to know if it really existed or if he just made it up...

              Salut et fraternite!
              Citoyenne Anca




              Hello, Citoyenne Anca!:

              Your answers help me very much, thank you! Surely, I must keep in researching...But you give me some ideas to find the answers I need. The historian's work is very hard!

              As for Cimourdain, I think he is a made up character. Nevertheless, I'll search his name in my Larousse to find something about him. I think Gauvain is a made up character too. In 93', he mixed up real life characters and made up ones, so it's hard to said who is created by him and who not...Of course, Marat, Robespierre and Danton are real ones!!! ^_^ .Well...I'll search "Cimourdain" for you.

              Thank you again, Citoyenne!

              Vanesa.




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            • cgroiss@aon.at
              Salut Vanesa! ... For one, Saint-Just is definitely prettier in the traditional sense. He has a bit the air of the troubled youngster about himself, what
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 16, 2003
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                Salut Vanesa!

                > I don't understand why Robespierre has
                > not so many fan's than Saint-Just. Our Antoine has "something" that
                > Maxime hasn't...What can it be?

                For one, Saint-Just is definitely prettier in the traditional sense.
                He has a bit the air of the troubled youngster about himself, what
                probably endears him to many. Robespierre, on the other hand, was a
                fascinating and multi-faceted man, but he comes across as introverted
                and thus not very approachable.

                But then I am convinced that either Robespierre or SJ as mere
                individuals would have succeeded without their entourage of close
                allies and friends. That's why I appreciate your interest in Hanriot.
                Myself, I have tried to get my hands on every bit of information
                about Augustin Robespierre since some time. He was a much more
                influential figure with his brother than most historians give him
                credit for (if they give him credit at all!). I still think that his
                actions on 9th Thermidor were imprudent - he should have tried to
                stay out of harm's way during the session and rally the Commune as
                swiftly as possible. Granted, he was freed from his prison, but
                precious time may have been lost. Still, he was an excellent
                commissar both with the Southern army and in the Franche-Comté.

                But again, while he frequently exchanged letters with his brother and
                with their old common friend Bussart in Arras, there is very little
                reference to private affairs. So I'm afraid we are still left in the
                dark about such life-shattering questions like "What colour was SJ's
                hair?" or "Did Maxime shag Eleonore?"

                yours
                Claudia
              • Vanesa Montacuto
                cgroiss@aon.at wrote: Salut Vanesa! ... For one, Saint-Just is definitely prettier in the traditional sense. He has a bit the air of the troubled youngster
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 16, 2003
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                  cgroiss@... wrote:
                  Salut Vanesa!

                  > I don't understand why Robespierre has
                  > not so many fan's than Saint-Just. Our Antoine has "something" that
                  > Maxime hasn't...What can it be?

                  For one, Saint-Just is definitely prettier in the traditional sense.
                  He has a bit the air of the troubled youngster about himself, what
                  probably endears him to many. Robespierre, on the other hand, was a
                  fascinating and multi-faceted man, but he comes across as introverted
                  and thus not very approachable.

                  But then I am convinced that either Robespierre or SJ as mere
                  individuals would have succeeded without their entourage of close
                  allies and friends. That's why I appreciate your interest in Hanriot.
                  Myself, I have tried to get my hands on every bit of information
                  about Augustin Robespierre since some time. He was a much more
                  influential figure with his brother than most historians give him
                  credit for (if they give him credit at all!). I still think that his
                  actions on 9th Thermidor were imprudent - he should have tried to
                  stay out of harm's way during the session and rally the Commune as
                  swiftly as possible. Granted, he was freed from his prison, but
                  precious time may have been lost. Still, he was an excellent
                  commissar both with the Southern army and in the Franche-Comté.

                  But again, while he frequently exchanged letters with his brother and
                  with their old common friend Bussart in Arras, there is very little
                  reference to private affairs. So I'm afraid we are still left in the
                  dark about such life-shattering questions like "What colour was SJ's
                  hair?" or "Did Maxime shag Eleonore?"

                  yours
                  Claudia

                  Hello, Claudia:

                  What a coincidence! I'm interested in Augustin Robespierre too. I agree in all do you said about him.For me, is a little harder than for Europeans , to find infos in Augustin (or Hanriot, for instance). All books and booklets about minor characters are in English or French. I may read both, but it is not easy for me, since I live in Buenos Aires, to buy those books here. Many of them are not available . Before December of 2000, I could purchase books by internet (I bought some), but there was political and economic troubles in my country, and I can't afford those books any more. Before December 2000, we may purchase things in dollar price ( a dollar was a peso) but after it, a peso was three dollars, and all foreign things are almost prohibitive for us...

                  If you have some important infos in Augustin Robespierre, share them with me. I like him very much...In fact...I'm interested in all people of Maxime's entourage: Lebas, the Duplays, Couthon, Hanriot, Payan, Coffinhal...Them all! If you know some info about them, this info is welcome here! Of course if I know any info myself, I'll post it here too!

                  Salut et Fraternité!

                  Vanesa.





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