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Mars Consortium Funding

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  • spacenutnewmars
    Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying well we ll do this,
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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      Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.

      So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.

      I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.


      Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
      His words follow:

      Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?

      MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.


      Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
    • spacenutnewmars
      The first response was from Hal Fulton to the opening thoughts and here is what he had to say: This is just my opinion, and Frank s will trump it. My notes: 1.
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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        The first response was from Hal Fulton to the opening thoughts and here is what he had to say:
        This is just my opinion, and Frank's will trump it.

        My notes:

        1. I think our audience is more interested in technical aspects than anything else.
        2. I'm nervous about making claims of trying to implement the mission (consortium).
        Good idea, but we are *so* far from that!
        3. I'm a *tiny* bit nervous about the direct reference to NASA, especially with the
        phrase "buy-in."
        4. I think we're about other things besides Mars, and it might be appropriate to say
        so here.
        5. I think the DRM should be the focus of the talk -- over 50% of the meat.

        This is how I would rewrite it:

        MarsDrive is dedicated to promoting all aspects of space exploration and commerce,
        eventually leading to permanent human habitation of Mars. Our Mars mission plan
        does not rely on a single large commitment by NASA or any other entity operating
        alone; it is designed so that it can be implemented by a group including individual
        investors, private companies, and international space agencies. This presentation
        will outline our current Design Reference Mission in addition to presenting a brief
        overview of our philosophy and activities.



        --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
        >
        > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
        >
        > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
        >
        >
        > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
        > His words follow:
        >
        > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
        >
        > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
        >
        >
        > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
        >
      • spacenutnewmars
        Frank Stratford return with his: First, we must consider our audience. Second, we have to consider our name- Mars Drive. Yes, we are about many other things,
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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          Frank Stratford return with his:

          First, we must consider our audience. Second, we have to consider our name- "Mars"Drive. Yes, we are about many other things, and I have been trying hard to convey this but to be honest it only seems to confuse people(due to our unknown status). Yes, we are about getting to Mars, and yes, we are about doing "whatever it takes" to get there, including supporting ideas the Mars Society usually steers away from(like space tourism, mining etc).
          We want to avoid sounding like the NSS or Mars Society as much as possible. The problem is that we are neither of these groups, we are much less well known and smaller in size. BUT- We do want people to focus. We do also want them to understand "everything" about us and to join us. We also need to be honest in what we say and I think Ron's message is just that. Many groups and people claim many things, few accomplish them. I think it's a part of these sorts of conferences. I honestly get sick of people getting up and claiming fantastic goals and then abandoning them and we don't want to do that.
          We want the people at ISDC to focus, to accept us as a mainstream space group and to get excited about our plans. We have tried giving them the "we are about everything in space" message once before (with Regan 2 years ago), and no one listened then. We also tried the "we are about public outreach" message last year, and again- little to no response. So I think this time we need to keep our focus simple, clear and on the mission design and most importantly the strategy that will make it a reality.
          We want to communicate a message this time. That message is that this "strategy" (the consortium idea and mission) is doable by anyone and is a superior strategy than putting all our eggs in the NASA basket (like the Mars Society and other space groups often do). It is meant to convey an alternative (but believable) path through the wilderness. So here are my points in brief-
          1. Mindshare-People don't know us and don't care who we are currently, we have to change this.
          2. Uniqueness-ISDC people hear lots of fantastic space plans- ours needs to be truly unique
          3. Credibility-It must be believable, and to that end I have revised it to sound more "doable by anyone" and less about "us" making it all happen
          4. Inspiration-If people can believe our strategy is possible that would be a major success for us
          5. Focus-I want them to focus on the strategy and the design first, with MarsDrive a distant last
          6. Support-If people accept (and get excited about) the strategy and design we have, they will then support MarsDrive
          The extra problem we have had until now is that we have so far used only enthusiastic amateurs to present our ideas, and coming from a group that is already unknown it is no wonder we have been ignored. I'm thankful for the efforts everyone has put in, and it's not their fault no one listens to us, it's just the way the space community "listens" to new ideas that we need to grasp better this time. This time Ron, who is qualified and a professional, is presenting this on our behalf. That act in itself is a major step forward for us. While we are about much more than Mars, at this point it will simply confuse people if we try the "we are about other things too" message. First let's get their attention and respect- then when they are listening we can talk to them about whatever we want, and a lot of that is already on our website. I have made some slight changes anyway to the wording to reflect the focus we want. Everything Ron wrote is factual, as is everything Hal wrote, but due to our unknown status we have to limit our focus this time for our intended audience. They will soon discover we are about much more than Mars- if we can get them to listen to us in the first place.
          Having said all this the idea of the "consortium" needs to be as clear and specific as we can get(just like Mars Direct), including exactly "how" it could be implemented. If we are not clear on those 2 points we will be back to square one. I took out the ownership phrasing and naming the consortium after MarsDrive because at this point no one would believe we could do such a thing on our own, and even if they do we are not ready (resource wise) to form such a consortium- though we can (and are) making a start, so let's reflect this reality in our words. Here is my revision anyway.---

          MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to work towards putting together a Mars Mission Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission .


          --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
          >
          > The first response was from Hal Fulton to the opening thoughts and here is what he had to say:
          > This is just my opinion, and Frank's will trump it.
          >
          > My notes:
          >
          > 1. I think our audience is more interested in technical aspects than anything else.
          > 2. I'm nervous about making claims of trying to implement the mission (consortium).
          > Good idea, but we are *so* far from that!
          > 3. I'm a *tiny* bit nervous about the direct reference to NASA, especially with the
          > phrase "buy-in."
          > 4. I think we're about other things besides Mars, and it might be appropriate to say
          > so here.
          > 5. I think the DRM should be the focus of the talk -- over 50% of the meat.
          >
          > This is how I would rewrite it:
          >
          > MarsDrive is dedicated to promoting all aspects of space exploration and commerce,
          > eventually leading to permanent human habitation of Mars. Our Mars mission plan
          > does not rely on a single large commitment by NASA or any other entity operating
          > alone; it is designed so that it can be implemented by a group including individual
          > investors, private companies, and international space agencies. This presentation
          > will outline our current Design Reference Mission in addition to presenting a brief
          > overview of our philosophy and activities.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
          > >
          > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
          > >
          > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
          > >
          > >
          > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
          > > His words follow:
          > >
          > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
          > >
          > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
          > >
          > >
          > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
          > >
          >
        • spacenutnewmars
          Hal Fulton had additional comments: I do like this better. I m very sensitive to looking like a kitten trying to roar like a lion. When you say outline the
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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            Hal Fulton had additional comments:

            I do like this better. I'm very sensitive to looking like "a kitten trying to
            roar like a lion."

            When you say "outline the MarsDrive strategy and briefly detail the mission" --
            what does that mean? Does the mission occupy the main part of the talk or not?
            And when you say "our strategy" -- is that only with respect to the mission, or
            to everything we do (or plan to do)?

            I'm also still a little troubled by the phrase "without massive buy-in from NASA" --
            though I find it hard to say why.



            --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
            >
            > Frank Stratford return with his:
            >
            > First, we must consider our audience. Second, we have to consider our name- "Mars"Drive. Yes, we are about many other things, and I have been trying hard to convey this but to be honest it only seems to confuse people(due to our unknown status). Yes, we are about getting to Mars, and yes, we are about doing "whatever it takes" to get there, including supporting ideas the Mars Society usually steers away from(like space tourism, mining etc).
            > We want to avoid sounding like the NSS or Mars Society as much as possible. The problem is that we are neither of these groups, we are much less well known and smaller in size. BUT- We do want people to focus. We do also want them to understand "everything" about us and to join us. We also need to be honest in what we say and I think Ron's message is just that. Many groups and people claim many things, few accomplish them. I think it's a part of these sorts of conferences. I honestly get sick of people getting up and claiming fantastic goals and then abandoning them and we don't want to do that.
            > We want the people at ISDC to focus, to accept us as a mainstream space group and to get excited about our plans. We have tried giving them the "we are about everything in space" message once before (with Regan 2 years ago), and no one listened then. We also tried the "we are about public outreach" message last year, and again- little to no response. So I think this time we need to keep our focus simple, clear and on the mission design and most importantly the strategy that will make it a reality.
            > We want to communicate a message this time. That message is that this "strategy" (the consortium idea and mission) is doable by anyone and is a superior strategy than putting all our eggs in the NASA basket (like the Mars Society and other space groups often do). It is meant to convey an alternative (but believable) path through the wilderness. So here are my points in brief-
            > 1. Mindshare-People don't know us and don't care who we are currently, we have to change this.
            > 2. Uniqueness-ISDC people hear lots of fantastic space plans- ours needs to be truly unique
            > 3. Credibility-It must be believable, and to that end I have revised it to sound more "doable by anyone" and less about "us" making it all happen
            > 4. Inspiration-If people can believe our strategy is possible that would be a major success for us
            > 5. Focus-I want them to focus on the strategy and the design first, with MarsDrive a distant last
            > 6. Support-If people accept (and get excited about) the strategy and design we have, they will then support MarsDrive
            > The extra problem we have had until now is that we have so far used only enthusiastic amateurs to present our ideas, and coming from a group that is already unknown it is no wonder we have been ignored. I'm thankful for the efforts everyone has put in, and it's not their fault no one listens to us, it's just the way the space community "listens" to new ideas that we need to grasp better this time. This time Ron, who is qualified and a professional, is presenting this on our behalf. That act in itself is a major step forward for us. While we are about much more than Mars, at this point it will simply confuse people if we try the "we are about other things too" message. First let's get their attention and respect- then when they are listening we can talk to them about whatever we want, and a lot of that is already on our website. I have made some slight changes anyway to the wording to reflect the focus we want. Everything Ron wrote is factual, as is everything Hal wrote, but due to our unknown status we have to limit our focus this time for our intended audience. They will soon discover we are about much more than Mars- if we can get them to listen to us in the first place.
            > Having said all this the idea of the "consortium" needs to be as clear and specific as we can get(just like Mars Direct), including exactly "how" it could be implemented. If we are not clear on those 2 points we will be back to square one. I took out the ownership phrasing and naming the consortium after MarsDrive because at this point no one would believe we could do such a thing on our own, and even if they do we are not ready (resource wise) to form such a consortium- though we can (and are) making a start, so let's reflect this reality in our words. Here is my revision anyway.---
            >
            > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to work towards putting together a Mars Mission Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission .
            >
            >
            > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
            > >
            > > The first response was from Hal Fulton to the opening thoughts and here is what he had to say:
            > > This is just my opinion, and Frank's will trump it.
            > >
            > > My notes:
            > >
            > > 1. I think our audience is more interested in technical aspects than anything else.
            > > 2. I'm nervous about making claims of trying to implement the mission (consortium).
            > > Good idea, but we are *so* far from that!
            > > 3. I'm a *tiny* bit nervous about the direct reference to NASA, especially with the
            > > phrase "buy-in."
            > > 4. I think we're about other things besides Mars, and it might be appropriate to say
            > > so here.
            > > 5. I think the DRM should be the focus of the talk -- over 50% of the meat.
            > >
            > > This is how I would rewrite it:
            > >
            > > MarsDrive is dedicated to promoting all aspects of space exploration and commerce,
            > > eventually leading to permanent human habitation of Mars. Our Mars mission plan
            > > does not rely on a single large commitment by NASA or any other entity operating
            > > alone; it is designed so that it can be implemented by a group including individual
            > > investors, private companies, and international space agencies. This presentation
            > > will outline our current Design Reference Mission in addition to presenting a brief
            > > overview of our philosophy and activities.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
            > > >
            > > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
            > > >
            > > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
            > > > His words follow:
            > > >
            > > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
            > > >
            > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • spacenutnewmars
            Frank Stratford returned this response: The strategy I m talking about is the idea of a consortium approach to funding a Mars mission. This idea was given
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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              Frank Stratford returned this response:

              The strategy I'm talking about is the idea of a consortium approach to funding a Mars mission. This idea was given support by NASA, the ESA and other academics recently (remember the Stanford meeting?). It is an approach whose time has come and it must be our strategy for this mission. The difference with our consortium approach is that it will be controlled by the private/semi private sector (at least in a management role) for keeping costs down and for helping to stimulate the new space sector (which does need stimulating).
              Usually consortium ideas have suggested NASA or the UN as the controlling partner but NASA's (and the UN's) lack of will in these matters is well established so other avenues are needed. To avoid international conflict and stalemates in this sort of project I believe that a neutral consortium ruling body should be largely controlled by the private sector and will have the added spin off of giving that sector valuable credibility and experience as they work on their own ways into space.
              For example, if Virgin Galactic and SpaceX were running this consortium and they were also trying to launch their own space tourism ventures (at the same time)imagine the credibility, and not to mention real spaceflight experience it would give them? Investors would be beating a path to their door. A privately controlled, government involved consortium is the basic "strategy" we are talking about here, and also how we as a group will go about pursuing that agenda. The Mars Society strategy was to lobby congress, ours will be to engage with professionals from all areas, government and private so that a consortium of this type is successfully formed- even if we aren't in control of it. After all, it is bigger than all of us anyway.
              I have said before that the success rate of the Mars Society with the U.S Government has been nil so we either walk that same path or we try something else, and this strategy is that something else.
              Our role in all this is to facilitate this consortium and to bring it into existence via negotiations, a strong business plan and a world class mission design. It will require of us a mixture of "pitching" to the correct players, negotiating and more of the general outreach work we already do. It will involve approaching many different people, companies and governments but it is not something we can't do. The other space groups might be content to keep beating their heads against a brick wall (NASA/Congress) and get approximately nowhere but this consortium idea is about us pushing for a radical change and taking a multi-faceted view of how to fund a Mars mission. For example- If a Mars mission costs 50 Billion and we have 50 governments involved over ten years that equals 100 million per year each, not very much in even corporate terms.
              This "strategy" also involves formulating a business plan where we can show how various aspects (as many as possible) of the mission can generate revenue for private investors. At this stage my thinking is that it will involve patents, spin offs and multiple user applications. For example- Our design calls for in orbit assembly of the various stages. This presents an opportunity for private investors to gain a return through associated spin off industries that could be created by a working orbital transportation system such as our mission will require, with uses like solar power satellites, orbital refuelling stations, space junk collecting stations and orbital ship building facilities being enabled through this sort of system.
              I'm sure business minded people will come up with many revenue generating applications we are yet to think of also.
              So here it is in simple terms-
              1. The Consortium Concept
              2. A Viable Business Plan
              3. A Unique Mission Design
              4. MarsDrive as one of the catalyst forces behind it all.
              We do not have to be NASA to make this happen, we can simply be the catalyst. If we can convey the impression that these (catalyst efforts) are things that anyone can do (and they are) and that our group is simply dedicating itself to pursuit of this strategy (and not more head banging) I think we will get that extra funding and support we need at some point. What we need is a clear message and to get it out as often as possible.
              All the other ideas we have, the public outreach, support of new space efforts and all the rest, cannot be conveyed in Ron's simple speech at ISDC. But they will remain part of who we are, and as we gain more real financial support we will have the resources to pursue them better. Even our 10kg idea can benefit from this strategy.
              So first- we open with the design, get their attention, then we spend the second half/or 2/3rds of the talk hitting them with our consortium concept and aim to blow them away.
              As to the strategy I'm referring to here- It's for the mission funding plan and design specifically. Though it will have indirect applications for our own strategies as a group. As to the phrase "without massive buy in from NASA", to be honest that is a very diplomatic way of saying- "Without relying upon NASA". I believe NASA will be involved if this thing begins to become real, but all we are simply saying is that we do not require the American tax payer to pay for our dreams, something they are likely to respect. It is a radical thing to say, true, and it will likely offend some people who look to NASA for all their dreams to come true but at some point someone has to point out the obvious- the 10 ton elephant in the room. NASA isn't the only way to Mars. Do we believe this or not? If we do, it's time to support our beliefs with some bold actions.


              --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hal Fulton had additional comments:
              >
              > I do like this better. I'm very sensitive to looking like "a kitten trying to
              > roar like a lion."
              >
              > When you say "outline the MarsDrive strategy and briefly detail the mission" --
              > what does that mean? Does the mission occupy the main part of the talk or not?
              > And when you say "our strategy" -- is that only with respect to the mission, or
              > to everything we do (or plan to do)?
              >
              > I'm also still a little troubled by the phrase "without massive buy-in from NASA" --
              > though I find it hard to say why.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Frank Stratford return with his:
              > >
              > > First, we must consider our audience. Second, we have to consider our name- "Mars"Drive. Yes, we are about many other things, and I have been trying hard to convey this but to be honest it only seems to confuse people(due to our unknown status). Yes, we are about getting to Mars, and yes, we are about doing "whatever it takes" to get there, including supporting ideas the Mars Society usually steers away from(like space tourism, mining etc).
              > > We want to avoid sounding like the NSS or Mars Society as much as possible. The problem is that we are neither of these groups, we are much less well known and smaller in size. BUT- We do want people to focus. We do also want them to understand "everything" about us and to join us. We also need to be honest in what we say and I think Ron's message is just that. Many groups and people claim many things, few accomplish them. I think it's a part of these sorts of conferences. I honestly get sick of people getting up and claiming fantastic goals and then abandoning them and we don't want to do that.
              > > We want the people at ISDC to focus, to accept us as a mainstream space group and to get excited about our plans. We have tried giving them the "we are about everything in space" message once before (with Regan 2 years ago), and no one listened then. We also tried the "we are about public outreach" message last year, and again- little to no response. So I think this time we need to keep our focus simple, clear and on the mission design and most importantly the strategy that will make it a reality.
              > > We want to communicate a message this time. That message is that this "strategy" (the consortium idea and mission) is doable by anyone and is a superior strategy than putting all our eggs in the NASA basket (like the Mars Society and other space groups often do). It is meant to convey an alternative (but believable) path through the wilderness. So here are my points in brief-
              > > 1. Mindshare-People don't know us and don't care who we are currently, we have to change this.
              > > 2. Uniqueness-ISDC people hear lots of fantastic space plans- ours needs to be truly unique
              > > 3. Credibility-It must be believable, and to that end I have revised it to sound more "doable by anyone" and less about "us" making it all happen
              > > 4. Inspiration-If people can believe our strategy is possible that would be a major success for us
              > > 5. Focus-I want them to focus on the strategy and the design first, with MarsDrive a distant last
              > > 6. Support-If people accept (and get excited about) the strategy and design we have, they will then support MarsDrive
              > > The extra problem we have had until now is that we have so far used only enthusiastic amateurs to present our ideas, and coming from a group that is already unknown it is no wonder we have been ignored. I'm thankful for the efforts everyone has put in, and it's not their fault no one listens to us, it's just the way the space community "listens" to new ideas that we need to grasp better this time. This time Ron, who is qualified and a professional, is presenting this on our behalf. That act in itself is a major step forward for us. While we are about much more than Mars, at this point it will simply confuse people if we try the "we are about other things too" message. First let's get their attention and respect- then when they are listening we can talk to them about whatever we want, and a lot of that is already on our website. I have made some slight changes anyway to the wording to reflect the focus we want. Everything Ron wrote is factual, as is everything Hal wrote, but due to our unknown status we have to limit our focus this time for our intended audience. They will soon discover we are about much more than Mars- if we can get them to listen to us in the first place.
              > > Having said all this the idea of the "consortium" needs to be as clear and specific as we can get(just like Mars Direct), including exactly "how" it could be implemented. If we are not clear on those 2 points we will be back to square one. I took out the ownership phrasing and naming the consortium after MarsDrive because at this point no one would believe we could do such a thing on our own, and even if they do we are not ready (resource wise) to form such a consortium- though we can (and are) making a start, so let's reflect this reality in our words. Here is my revision anyway.---
              > >
              > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to work towards putting together a Mars Mission Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission .
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > The first response was from Hal Fulton to the opening thoughts and here is what he had to say:
              > > > This is just my opinion, and Frank's will trump it.
              > > >
              > > > My notes:
              > > >
              > > > 1. I think our audience is more interested in technical aspects than anything else.
              > > > 2. I'm nervous about making claims of trying to implement the mission (consortium).
              > > > Good idea, but we are *so* far from that!
              > > > 3. I'm a *tiny* bit nervous about the direct reference to NASA, especially with the
              > > > phrase "buy-in."
              > > > 4. I think we're about other things besides Mars, and it might be appropriate to say
              > > > so here.
              > > > 5. I think the DRM should be the focus of the talk -- over 50% of the meat.
              > > >
              > > > This is how I would rewrite it:
              > > >
              > > > MarsDrive is dedicated to promoting all aspects of space exploration and commerce,
              > > > eventually leading to permanent human habitation of Mars. Our Mars mission plan
              > > > does not rely on a single large commitment by NASA or any other entity operating
              > > > alone; it is designed so that it can be implemented by a group including individual
              > > > investors, private companies, and international space agencies. This presentation
              > > > will outline our current Design Reference Mission in addition to presenting a brief
              > > > overview of our philosophy and activities.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
              > > > >
              > > > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
              > > > >
              > > > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
              > > > > His words follow:
              > > > >
              > > > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
              > > > >
              > > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • spacenutnewmars
              Ronald Cordes got back to the group with this with just the focus on the ISDC 2008: OK, so here s where we are. I did a little word-smithing, especially
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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                Ronald Cordes got back to the group with this with just the focus on the ISDC 2008:

                OK, so here's where we are. I did a little word-smithing, especially eliminating the awkward phrase "our goal is to work towards putting together" I think the substitute "our goal is the establishment of" is more direct, and is passive enough that it does not cross Hal's line about a kitten trying to roar like a lion.
                MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our goal is the establishment of a Mars Mission Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA or any other single organization to accomplish. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission .
                The abstract is going to be submitted this week-end, so you have a few days to get back to me with any further polishing.


                --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
                >
                > Frank Stratford returned this response:
                >
                > The strategy I'm talking about is the idea of a consortium approach to funding a Mars mission. This idea was given support by NASA, the ESA and other academics recently (remember the Stanford meeting?). It is an approach whose time has come and it must be our strategy for this mission. The difference with our consortium approach is that it will be controlled by the private/semi private sector (at least in a management role) for keeping costs down and for helping to stimulate the new space sector (which does need stimulating).
                > Usually consortium ideas have suggested NASA or the UN as the controlling partner but NASA's (and the UN's) lack of will in these matters is well established so other avenues are needed. To avoid international conflict and stalemates in this sort of project I believe that a neutral consortium ruling body should be largely controlled by the private sector and will have the added spin off of giving that sector valuable credibility and experience as they work on their own ways into space.
                > For example, if Virgin Galactic and SpaceX were running this consortium and they were also trying to launch their own space tourism ventures (at the same time)imagine the credibility, and not to mention real spaceflight experience it would give them? Investors would be beating a path to their door. A privately controlled, government involved consortium is the basic "strategy" we are talking about here, and also how we as a group will go about pursuing that agenda. The Mars Society strategy was to lobby congress, ours will be to engage with professionals from all areas, government and private so that a consortium of this type is successfully formed- even if we aren't in control of it. After all, it is bigger than all of us anyway.
                > I have said before that the success rate of the Mars Society with the U.S Government has been nil so we either walk that same path or we try something else, and this strategy is that something else.
                > Our role in all this is to facilitate this consortium and to bring it into existence via negotiations, a strong business plan and a world class mission design. It will require of us a mixture of "pitching" to the correct players, negotiating and more of the general outreach work we already do. It will involve approaching many different people, companies and governments but it is not something we can't do. The other space groups might be content to keep beating their heads against a brick wall (NASA/Congress) and get approximately nowhere but this consortium idea is about us pushing for a radical change and taking a multi-faceted view of how to fund a Mars mission. For example- If a Mars mission costs 50 Billion and we have 50 governments involved over ten years that equals 100 million per year each, not very much in even corporate terms.
                > This "strategy" also involves formulating a business plan where we can show how various aspects (as many as possible) of the mission can generate revenue for private investors. At this stage my thinking is that it will involve patents, spin offs and multiple user applications. For example- Our design calls for in orbit assembly of the various stages. This presents an opportunity for private investors to gain a return through associated spin off industries that could be created by a working orbital transportation system such as our mission will require, with uses like solar power satellites, orbital refuelling stations, space junk collecting stations and orbital ship building facilities being enabled through this sort of system.
                > I'm sure business minded people will come up with many revenue generating applications we are yet to think of also.
                > So here it is in simple terms-
                > 1. The Consortium Concept
                > 2. A Viable Business Plan
                > 3. A Unique Mission Design
                > 4. MarsDrive as one of the catalyst forces behind it all.
                > We do not have to be NASA to make this happen, we can simply be the catalyst. If we can convey the impression that these (catalyst efforts) are things that anyone can do (and they are) and that our group is simply dedicating itself to pursuit of this strategy (and not more head banging) I think we will get that extra funding and support we need at some point. What we need is a clear message and to get it out as often as possible.
                > All the other ideas we have, the public outreach, support of new space efforts and all the rest, cannot be conveyed in Ron's simple speech at ISDC. But they will remain part of who we are, and as we gain more real financial support we will have the resources to pursue them better. Even our 10kg idea can benefit from this strategy.
                > So first- we open with the design, get their attention, then we spend the second half/or 2/3rds of the talk hitting them with our consortium concept and aim to blow them away.
                > As to the strategy I'm referring to here- It's for the mission funding plan and design specifically. Though it will have indirect applications for our own strategies as a group. As to the phrase "without massive buy in from NASA", to be honest that is a very diplomatic way of saying- "Without relying upon NASA". I believe NASA will be involved if this thing begins to become real, but all we are simply saying is that we do not require the American tax payer to pay for our dreams, something they are likely to respect. It is a radical thing to say, true, and it will likely offend some people who look to NASA for all their dreams to come true but at some point someone has to point out the obvious- the 10 ton elephant in the room. NASA isn't the only way to Mars. Do we believe this or not? If we do, it's time to support our beliefs with some bold actions.
                >
                >
                > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hal Fulton had additional comments:
                > >
                > > I do like this better. I'm very sensitive to looking like "a kitten trying to
                > > roar like a lion."
                > >
                > > When you say "outline the MarsDrive strategy and briefly detail the mission" --
                > > what does that mean? Does the mission occupy the main part of the talk or not?
                > > And when you say "our strategy" -- is that only with respect to the mission, or
                > > to everything we do (or plan to do)?
                > >
                > > I'm also still a little troubled by the phrase "without massive buy-in from NASA" --
                > > though I find it hard to say why.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Frank Stratford return with his:
                > > >
                > > > First, we must consider our audience. Second, we have to consider our name- "Mars"Drive. Yes, we are about many other things, and I have been trying hard to convey this but to be honest it only seems to confuse people(due to our unknown status). Yes, we are about getting to Mars, and yes, we are about doing "whatever it takes" to get there, including supporting ideas the Mars Society usually steers away from(like space tourism, mining etc).
                > > > We want to avoid sounding like the NSS or Mars Society as much as possible. The problem is that we are neither of these groups, we are much less well known and smaller in size. BUT- We do want people to focus. We do also want them to understand "everything" about us and to join us. We also need to be honest in what we say and I think Ron's message is just that. Many groups and people claim many things, few accomplish them. I think it's a part of these sorts of conferences. I honestly get sick of people getting up and claiming fantastic goals and then abandoning them and we don't want to do that.
                > > > We want the people at ISDC to focus, to accept us as a mainstream space group and to get excited about our plans. We have tried giving them the "we are about everything in space" message once before (with Regan 2 years ago), and no one listened then. We also tried the "we are about public outreach" message last year, and again- little to no response. So I think this time we need to keep our focus simple, clear and on the mission design and most importantly the strategy that will make it a reality.
                > > > We want to communicate a message this time. That message is that this "strategy" (the consortium idea and mission) is doable by anyone and is a superior strategy than putting all our eggs in the NASA basket (like the Mars Society and other space groups often do). It is meant to convey an alternative (but believable) path through the wilderness. So here are my points in brief-
                > > > 1. Mindshare-People don't know us and don't care who we are currently, we have to change this.
                > > > 2. Uniqueness-ISDC people hear lots of fantastic space plans- ours needs to be truly unique
                > > > 3. Credibility-It must be believable, and to that end I have revised it to sound more "doable by anyone" and less about "us" making it all happen
                > > > 4. Inspiration-If people can believe our strategy is possible that would be a major success for us
                > > > 5. Focus-I want them to focus on the strategy and the design first, with MarsDrive a distant last
                > > > 6. Support-If people accept (and get excited about) the strategy and design we have, they will then support MarsDrive
                > > > The extra problem we have had until now is that we have so far used only enthusiastic amateurs to present our ideas, and coming from a group that is already unknown it is no wonder we have been ignored. I'm thankful for the efforts everyone has put in, and it's not their fault no one listens to us, it's just the way the space community "listens" to new ideas that we need to grasp better this time. This time Ron, who is qualified and a professional, is presenting this on our behalf. That act in itself is a major step forward for us. While we are about much more than Mars, at this point it will simply confuse people if we try the "we are about other things too" message. First let's get their attention and respect- then when they are listening we can talk to them about whatever we want, and a lot of that is already on our website. I have made some slight changes anyway to the wording to reflect the focus we want. Everything Ron wrote is factual, as is everything Hal wrote, but due to our unknown status we have to limit our focus this time for our intended audience. They will soon discover we are about much more than Mars- if we can get them to listen to us in the first place.
                > > > Having said all this the idea of the "consortium" needs to be as clear and specific as we can get(just like Mars Direct), including exactly "how" it could be implemented. If we are not clear on those 2 points we will be back to square one. I took out the ownership phrasing and naming the consortium after MarsDrive because at this point no one would believe we could do such a thing on our own, and even if they do we are not ready (resource wise) to form such a consortium- though we can (and are) making a start, so let's reflect this reality in our words. Here is my revision anyway.---
                > > >
                > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to work towards putting together a Mars Mission Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission .
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > The first response was from Hal Fulton to the opening thoughts and here is what he had to say:
                > > > > This is just my opinion, and Frank's will trump it.
                > > > >
                > > > > My notes:
                > > > >
                > > > > 1. I think our audience is more interested in technical aspects than anything else.
                > > > > 2. I'm nervous about making claims of trying to implement the mission (consortium).
                > > > > Good idea, but we are *so* far from that!
                > > > > 3. I'm a *tiny* bit nervous about the direct reference to NASA, especially with the
                > > > > phrase "buy-in."
                > > > > 4. I think we're about other things besides Mars, and it might be appropriate to say
                > > > > so here.
                > > > > 5. I think the DRM should be the focus of the talk -- over 50% of the meat.
                > > > >
                > > > > This is how I would rewrite it:
                > > > >
                > > > > MarsDrive is dedicated to promoting all aspects of space exploration and commerce,
                > > > > eventually leading to permanent human habitation of Mars. Our Mars mission plan
                > > > > does not rely on a single large commitment by NASA or any other entity operating
                > > > > alone; it is designed so that it can be implemented by a group including individual
                > > > > investors, private companies, and international space agencies. This presentation
                > > > > will outline our current Design Reference Mission in addition to presenting a brief
                > > > > overview of our philosophy and activities.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
                > > > > > His words follow:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • spacenutnewmars
                At this time I finally got email messages caught up to what had been happening and David Harris gave this as the response: I have had little time to respond to
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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                  At this time I finally got email messages caught up to what had been happening and David Harris gave this as the response:

                  I have had little time to respond to the discussions lately, but wanted to offer a change of wording as an alternative to Ron's. MarsDrive is a nonprofit organization dedicated to realizing the goal of putting humans on Mars and subsequently creating a permanent presence. To achieve this, we plan to establish a unique consortium of nations and private assets with the goal of developing and flying the first human missions to Mars. The business architecture will not require massive investment from government agencies and therefore avoids the problems that have plagued government-led international investments in space. This presentation will explain the MarsDrive strategy and give an overview of the current Design Reference Mission points.


                  --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ronald Cordes got back to the group with this with just the focus on the ISDC 2008:
                  >
                  > OK, so here's where we are. I did a little word-smithing, especially eliminating the awkward phrase "our goal is to work towards putting together" I think the substitute "our goal is the establishment of" is more direct, and is passive enough that it does not cross Hal's line about a kitten trying to roar like a lion.
                  > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our goal is the establishment of a Mars Mission Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA or any other single organization to accomplish. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission .
                  > The abstract is going to be submitted this week-end, so you have a few days to get back to me with any further polishing.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Frank Stratford returned this response:
                  > >
                  > > The strategy I'm talking about is the idea of a consortium approach to funding a Mars mission. This idea was given support by NASA, the ESA and other academics recently (remember the Stanford meeting?). It is an approach whose time has come and it must be our strategy for this mission. The difference with our consortium approach is that it will be controlled by the private/semi private sector (at least in a management role) for keeping costs down and for helping to stimulate the new space sector (which does need stimulating).
                  > > Usually consortium ideas have suggested NASA or the UN as the controlling partner but NASA's (and the UN's) lack of will in these matters is well established so other avenues are needed. To avoid international conflict and stalemates in this sort of project I believe that a neutral consortium ruling body should be largely controlled by the private sector and will have the added spin off of giving that sector valuable credibility and experience as they work on their own ways into space.
                  > > For example, if Virgin Galactic and SpaceX were running this consortium and they were also trying to launch their own space tourism ventures (at the same time)imagine the credibility, and not to mention real spaceflight experience it would give them? Investors would be beating a path to their door. A privately controlled, government involved consortium is the basic "strategy" we are talking about here, and also how we as a group will go about pursuing that agenda. The Mars Society strategy was to lobby congress, ours will be to engage with professionals from all areas, government and private so that a consortium of this type is successfully formed- even if we aren't in control of it. After all, it is bigger than all of us anyway.
                  > > I have said before that the success rate of the Mars Society with the U.S Government has been nil so we either walk that same path or we try something else, and this strategy is that something else.
                  > > Our role in all this is to facilitate this consortium and to bring it into existence via negotiations, a strong business plan and a world class mission design. It will require of us a mixture of "pitching" to the correct players, negotiating and more of the general outreach work we already do. It will involve approaching many different people, companies and governments but it is not something we can't do. The other space groups might be content to keep beating their heads against a brick wall (NASA/Congress) and get approximately nowhere but this consortium idea is about us pushing for a radical change and taking a multi-faceted view of how to fund a Mars mission. For example- If a Mars mission costs 50 Billion and we have 50 governments involved over ten years that equals 100 million per year each, not very much in even corporate terms.
                  > > This "strategy" also involves formulating a business plan where we can show how various aspects (as many as possible) of the mission can generate revenue for private investors. At this stage my thinking is that it will involve patents, spin offs and multiple user applications. For example- Our design calls for in orbit assembly of the various stages. This presents an opportunity for private investors to gain a return through associated spin off industries that could be created by a working orbital transportation system such as our mission will require, with uses like solar power satellites, orbital refuelling stations, space junk collecting stations and orbital ship building facilities being enabled through this sort of system.
                  > > I'm sure business minded people will come up with many revenue generating applications we are yet to think of also.
                  > > So here it is in simple terms-
                  > > 1. The Consortium Concept
                  > > 2. A Viable Business Plan
                  > > 3. A Unique Mission Design
                  > > 4. MarsDrive as one of the catalyst forces behind it all.
                  > > We do not have to be NASA to make this happen, we can simply be the catalyst. If we can convey the impression that these (catalyst efforts) are things that anyone can do (and they are) and that our group is simply dedicating itself to pursuit of this strategy (and not more head banging) I think we will get that extra funding and support we need at some point. What we need is a clear message and to get it out as often as possible.
                  > > All the other ideas we have, the public outreach, support of new space efforts and all the rest, cannot be conveyed in Ron's simple speech at ISDC. But they will remain part of who we are, and as we gain more real financial support we will have the resources to pursue them better. Even our 10kg idea can benefit from this strategy.
                  > > So first- we open with the design, get their attention, then we spend the second half/or 2/3rds of the talk hitting them with our consortium concept and aim to blow them away.
                  > > As to the strategy I'm referring to here- It's for the mission funding plan and design specifically. Though it will have indirect applications for our own strategies as a group. As to the phrase "without massive buy in from NASA", to be honest that is a very diplomatic way of saying- "Without relying upon NASA". I believe NASA will be involved if this thing begins to become real, but all we are simply saying is that we do not require the American tax payer to pay for our dreams, something they are likely to respect. It is a radical thing to say, true, and it will likely offend some people who look to NASA for all their dreams to come true but at some point someone has to point out the obvious- the 10 ton elephant in the room. NASA isn't the only way to Mars. Do we believe this or not? If we do, it's time to support our beliefs with some bold actions.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hal Fulton had additional comments:
                  > > >
                  > > > I do like this better. I'm very sensitive to looking like "a kitten trying to
                  > > > roar like a lion."
                  > > >
                  > > > When you say "outline the MarsDrive strategy and briefly detail the mission" --
                  > > > what does that mean? Does the mission occupy the main part of the talk or not?
                  > > > And when you say "our strategy" -- is that only with respect to the mission, or
                  > > > to everything we do (or plan to do)?
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm also still a little troubled by the phrase "without massive buy-in from NASA" --
                  > > > though I find it hard to say why.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Frank Stratford return with his:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > First, we must consider our audience. Second, we have to consider our name- "Mars"Drive. Yes, we are about many other things, and I have been trying hard to convey this but to be honest it only seems to confuse people(due to our unknown status). Yes, we are about getting to Mars, and yes, we are about doing "whatever it takes" to get there, including supporting ideas the Mars Society usually steers away from(like space tourism, mining etc).
                  > > > > We want to avoid sounding like the NSS or Mars Society as much as possible. The problem is that we are neither of these groups, we are much less well known and smaller in size. BUT- We do want people to focus. We do also want them to understand "everything" about us and to join us. We also need to be honest in what we say and I think Ron's message is just that. Many groups and people claim many things, few accomplish them. I think it's a part of these sorts of conferences. I honestly get sick of people getting up and claiming fantastic goals and then abandoning them and we don't want to do that.
                  > > > > We want the people at ISDC to focus, to accept us as a mainstream space group and to get excited about our plans. We have tried giving them the "we are about everything in space" message once before (with Regan 2 years ago), and no one listened then. We also tried the "we are about public outreach" message last year, and again- little to no response. So I think this time we need to keep our focus simple, clear and on the mission design and most importantly the strategy that will make it a reality.
                  > > > > We want to communicate a message this time. That message is that this "strategy" (the consortium idea and mission) is doable by anyone and is a superior strategy than putting all our eggs in the NASA basket (like the Mars Society and other space groups often do). It is meant to convey an alternative (but believable) path through the wilderness. So here are my points in brief-
                  > > > > 1. Mindshare-People don't know us and don't care who we are currently, we have to change this.
                  > > > > 2. Uniqueness-ISDC people hear lots of fantastic space plans- ours needs to be truly unique
                  > > > > 3. Credibility-It must be believable, and to that end I have revised it to sound more "doable by anyone" and less about "us" making it all happen
                  > > > > 4. Inspiration-If people can believe our strategy is possible that would be a major success for us
                  > > > > 5. Focus-I want them to focus on the strategy and the design first, with MarsDrive a distant last
                  > > > > 6. Support-If people accept (and get excited about) the strategy and design we have, they will then support MarsDrive
                  > > > > The extra problem we have had until now is that we have so far used only enthusiastic amateurs to present our ideas, and coming from a group that is already unknown it is no wonder we have been ignored. I'm thankful for the efforts everyone has put in, and it's not their fault no one listens to us, it's just the way the space community "listens" to new ideas that we need to grasp better this time. This time Ron, who is qualified and a professional, is presenting this on our behalf. That act in itself is a major step forward for us. While we are about much more than Mars, at this point it will simply confuse people if we try the "we are about other things too" message. First let's get their attention and respect- then when they are listening we can talk to them about whatever we want, and a lot of that is already on our website. I have made some slight changes anyway to the wording to reflect the focus we want. Everything Ron wrote is factual, as is everything Hal wrote, but due to our unknown status we have to limit our focus this time for our intended audience. They will soon discover we are about much more than Mars- if we can get them to listen to us in the first place.
                  > > > > Having said all this the idea of the "consortium" needs to be as clear and specific as we can get(just like Mars Direct), including exactly "how" it could be implemented. If we are not clear on those 2 points we will be back to square one. I took out the ownership phrasing and naming the consortium after MarsDrive because at this point no one would believe we could do such a thing on our own, and even if they do we are not ready (resource wise) to form such a consortium- though we can (and are) making a start, so let's reflect this reality in our words. Here is my revision anyway.---
                  > > > >
                  > > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to work towards putting together a Mars Mission Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission .
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The first response was from Hal Fulton to the opening thoughts and here is what he had to say:
                  > > > > > This is just my opinion, and Frank's will trump it.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > My notes:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 1. I think our audience is more interested in technical aspects than anything else.
                  > > > > > 2. I'm nervous about making claims of trying to implement the mission (consortium).
                  > > > > > Good idea, but we are *so* far from that!
                  > > > > > 3. I'm a *tiny* bit nervous about the direct reference to NASA, especially with the
                  > > > > > phrase "buy-in."
                  > > > > > 4. I think we're about other things besides Mars, and it might be appropriate to say
                  > > > > > so here.
                  > > > > > 5. I think the DRM should be the focus of the talk -- over 50% of the meat.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > This is how I would rewrite it:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > MarsDrive is dedicated to promoting all aspects of space exploration and commerce,
                  > > > > > eventually leading to permanent human habitation of Mars. Our Mars mission plan
                  > > > > > does not rely on a single large commitment by NASA or any other entity operating
                  > > > > > alone; it is designed so that it can be implemented by a group including individual
                  > > > > > investors, private companies, and international space agencies. This presentation
                  > > > > > will outline our current Design Reference Mission in addition to presenting a brief
                  > > > > > overview of our philosophy and activities.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
                  > > > > > > His words follow:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • spacenutnewmars
                  My chance came to repond to the topic: Ok what a surprise to get to see what has been worked on thus far and thank you for the efforts put forth. Here is my
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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                    My chance came to repond to the topic:
                    Ok what a surprise to get to see what has been worked on thus far and thank you for the efforts put forth.

                    Here is my take after combining thoughts from both David and Ron...

                    MarsDrive is a nonprofit organization dedicated to fostering the human habitation of the planet Mars. To achieve this will take a unique consortium plan to establish a design with the goal of developing of the needed assets to go to Mars to stay. Our plan is open to a joint venture of Nations, government agencies, private companies or investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this adventure to fund the first human mission to Mars. The business plan or architecture avoids the problem that plagues government-led space activity so that it will not rely on a massive buy-in by any single Nation, government agency nor organization to accomplish this task. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.

                    I think some of what I have needs to be next in the business plan...

                    Financial aspect:

                    MarsDrive will work with other nations to do those things that fulfill the dreams of humankind, dreams that always have included the desire to see what lies beyond the known world. MarsDrive must have a simple, but compelling, long-term set of goals and a coherent, thoughtful plan to achieve them. MarsDrive will turn to accomplished citizens and world-class experts for independent advice and guidance on major program and policy issues.
                    MarsDrive by defining and pursuing the frontiers that expand humankind's reach with this "The Mars Mission Consortium" effort will create a shared system to pay for the journey through cooperation. Like in any joint venture of nation states, private investors and interested individuals it is desired to believe it to be profitable in the long run for humans. Some believe that a financial case for Mars has yet to be made or is even possible but without a financial plan we will have chance of going in this century. The joint venture team members will barter for like kind services as well as those through the normal contractor channels as a central fund will be created to manage the purchases of the assets as required for each part of the plan.
                    Initially, robotic missions will survey and characterize potential Mars landing sites, including sites that could become long-term outposts. These robotic missions will include orbiters to provide measurement characteristics for the Mars surface and the space environment in support of survival objectives. To test technologies for in situ resource utilization so astronauts can "live off the land." In the long term, this capability will reduce the amount of supplies and consumables launched from Earth to the Mars, making space exploration more affordable and sustainable. Technology development will include excavation systems, volatile material extraction systems, and other technologies to reduce logistics requirement for a Mars built habitat and other structures. In the future, in situ resource utilization systems will be used to produce propellants and oxygen from resources in regolith and potentially ice to meet the needs of Mars outpost crew.

                    Building on successful demonstrations on the Moon via other nations space programs in new technologies of in-situ resource utilization. The Human mission to Mars plan will allow future explorers to use the resources of Mars identified by previous robotic missions to there fullest. Martian resources that will be useful in long-duration stays on the surface include carbon dioxide from the Martian atmosphere and expected sub-surface water ice and hydrated minerals to provide the essential components of breathable oxygen and rocket fuel for the return to Earth. Building upon early demonstrations of power systems, an electrical system could provide the energy to support explorers for up to 500 days on the Martian surface.


                    --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
                    >
                    > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
                    >
                    > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
                    >
                    >
                    > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
                    > His words follow:
                    >
                    > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
                    >
                    > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                    >
                    >
                    > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
                    >
                  • spacenutnewmars
                    At this point I gave a response to a forum posting to the topic on newmars or could have even been on the crashed MarsDrive site forum but in either case here
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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                      At this point I gave a response to a forum posting to the topic on newmars or could have even been on the crashed MarsDrive site forum but in either case here is the comments:

                      While I could not tell what was Jon's comments from David's I did want to reply to the last received message.

                      Sure a gold mine no problem but unless it is refined to a very high quality than the plain ore found, even if it is of high level of content is not all that valuable from an investors stand point.

                      We all understand that it is hard to come up with enough money to fund a mission of this sort and that short term investment is not going to get much in direct returns.

                      Mars is long-term investments not only from the fact that it takes along time to go from here to there and back but also due to we are starting from scratch on every level.

                      While we can desire a sample and return we do not as of yet have one in the planning from those that can do it so how can we expect something costing even more to be started.

                      We collectively have done the research into what it will take and the one stumbling block is landing the mass we need in large chunks to the surface.

                      So from an investment point of view would you belly up the money before a mission can occur to a group that has no money to begin with?

                      Sure the items in Louis's comments would go along way to paying for a mission but it is hard to sell something that you have not done before.

                      The case for a consortium which handles the control of funds and generating funds from rights is as sound as any direction to go but unless the partners are willing to give hard cash to the dream for a start then it will be on a slow track.

                      MarsDrive's current efforts to give what little it can to projects in need of funds is a start once these are on there way as it will generate news of the contribution. This may help MarsDrive if successful for its future if the right spin is put on it.

                      We all know the status of MarsDrive's membership, its ability to generate a revenue stream and how it needs to generate somehow critical mass to get the ball really moving.

                      Currently with the site down it is hard to get new membership let alone say we have something of interest for then once they did visit the working pages.

                      MarsDrive is a small organization but one that can be used to leverage communication to all of MS to get the much large numbers to work together under the single name that they share.

                      Sure it may seem like the MS for USA is outsourcing what it would want done but then again it comes down to buying power and cost for what needs to happen. This is no different than the Mars Consortium approach that the group would like to venture to mars with in this aspect.

                      Seeking out universities that could build what we would like is another means to the end for these same projects. Yes I am talking about low cost design, construction and testing but not of quality.

                      In one way MarsDrive has already succeeded in communications outreach as it has members from several forums, organizations and people on several continents being there eyes, ears and mouth for what MarsDrive is trying to communicate. We just need more of us to keep working things.


                      --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > My chance came to repond to the topic:
                      > Ok what a surprise to get to see what has been worked on thus far and thank you for the efforts put forth.
                      >
                      > Here is my take after combining thoughts from both David and Ron...
                      >
                      > MarsDrive is a nonprofit organization dedicated to fostering the human habitation of the planet Mars. To achieve this will take a unique consortium plan to establish a design with the goal of developing of the needed assets to go to Mars to stay. Our plan is open to a joint venture of Nations, government agencies, private companies or investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this adventure to fund the first human mission to Mars. The business plan or architecture avoids the problem that plagues government-led space activity so that it will not rely on a massive buy-in by any single Nation, government agency nor organization to accomplish this task. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                      >
                      > I think some of what I have needs to be next in the business plan...
                      >
                      > Financial aspect:
                      >
                      > MarsDrive will work with other nations to do those things that fulfill the dreams of humankind, dreams that always have included the desire to see what lies beyond the known world. MarsDrive must have a simple, but compelling, long-term set of goals and a coherent, thoughtful plan to achieve them. MarsDrive will turn to accomplished citizens and world-class experts for independent advice and guidance on major program and policy issues.
                      > MarsDrive by defining and pursuing the frontiers that expand humankind's reach with this "The Mars Mission Consortium" effort will create a shared system to pay for the journey through cooperation. Like in any joint venture of nation states, private investors and interested individuals it is desired to believe it to be profitable in the long run for humans. Some believe that a financial case for Mars has yet to be made or is even possible but without a financial plan we will have chance of going in this century. The joint venture team members will barter for like kind services as well as those through the normal contractor channels as a central fund will be created to manage the purchases of the assets as required for each part of the plan.
                      > Initially, robotic missions will survey and characterize potential Mars landing sites, including sites that could become long-term outposts. These robotic missions will include orbiters to provide measurement characteristics for the Mars surface and the space environment in support of survival objectives. To test technologies for in situ resource utilization so astronauts can "live off the land." In the long term, this capability will reduce the amount of supplies and consumables launched from Earth to the Mars, making space exploration more affordable and sustainable. Technology development will include excavation systems, volatile material extraction systems, and other technologies to reduce logistics requirement for a Mars built habitat and other structures. In the future, in situ resource utilization systems will be used to produce propellants and oxygen from resources in regolith and potentially ice to meet the needs of Mars outpost crew.
                      >
                      > Building on successful demonstrations on the Moon via other nations space programs in new technologies of in-situ resource utilization. The Human mission to Mars plan will allow future explorers to use the resources of Mars identified by previous robotic missions to there fullest. Martian resources that will be useful in long-duration stays on the surface include carbon dioxide from the Martian atmosphere and expected sub-surface water ice and hydrated minerals to provide the essential components of breathable oxygen and rocket fuel for the return to Earth. Building upon early demonstrations of power systems, an electrical system could provide the energy to support explorers for up to 500 days on the Martian surface.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
                      > >
                      > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
                      > >
                      > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
                      > > His words follow:
                      > >
                      > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
                      > >
                      > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
                      > >
                      >
                    • spacenutnewmars
                      Ronald Cordes wanted another look at the wording: Any objections to dropping the word mission so it is the Mars Consortium ? It implies the consortium s
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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                        Ronald Cordes wanted another look at the wording:

                        Any objections to dropping the word 'mission' so it is the "Mars Consortium"? It implies the consortium's vision is beyond one mission - its vision is the entire planet.

                        TITLE: MarsDrive presents "The Mars Consortium" - the private road to Mars
                        ABSTRACT:
                        MarsDrive is a non-profit organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. To accomplish this goal we propose the establishment of a Mars Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and interested individuals. Membership in the consortium will be open to all who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human missions to Mars. The consortium's business strategy will not require a massive buy-in by any single nation, government agency, or private organization. This strategy avoids the reliance on a single funding source that has so plagued other non-governmental Mars proposals. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will present our current Design Reference Mission.



                        --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > At this point I gave a response to a forum posting to the topic on newmars or could have even been on the crashed MarsDrive site forum but in either case here is the comments:
                        >
                        > While I could not tell what was Jon's comments from David's I did want to reply to the last received message.
                        >
                        > Sure a gold mine no problem but unless it is refined to a very high quality than the plain ore found, even if it is of high level of content is not all that valuable from an investors stand point.
                        >
                        > We all understand that it is hard to come up with enough money to fund a mission of this sort and that short term investment is not going to get much in direct returns.
                        >
                        > Mars is long-term investments not only from the fact that it takes along time to go from here to there and back but also due to we are starting from scratch on every level.
                        >
                        > While we can desire a sample and return we do not as of yet have one in the planning from those that can do it so how can we expect something costing even more to be started.
                        >
                        > We collectively have done the research into what it will take and the one stumbling block is landing the mass we need in large chunks to the surface.
                        >
                        > So from an investment point of view would you belly up the money before a mission can occur to a group that has no money to begin with?
                        >
                        > Sure the items in Louis's comments would go along way to paying for a mission but it is hard to sell something that you have not done before.
                        >
                        > The case for a consortium which handles the control of funds and generating funds from rights is as sound as any direction to go but unless the partners are willing to give hard cash to the dream for a start then it will be on a slow track.
                        >
                        > MarsDrive's current efforts to give what little it can to projects in need of funds is a start once these are on there way as it will generate news of the contribution. This may help MarsDrive if successful for its future if the right spin is put on it.
                        >
                        > We all know the status of MarsDrive's membership, its ability to generate a revenue stream and how it needs to generate somehow critical mass to get the ball really moving.
                        >
                        > Currently with the site down it is hard to get new membership let alone say we have something of interest for then once they did visit the working pages.
                        >
                        > MarsDrive is a small organization but one that can be used to leverage communication to all of MS to get the much large numbers to work together under the single name that they share.
                        >
                        > Sure it may seem like the MS for USA is outsourcing what it would want done but then again it comes down to buying power and cost for what needs to happen. This is no different than the Mars Consortium approach that the group would like to venture to mars with in this aspect.
                        >
                        > Seeking out universities that could build what we would like is another means to the end for these same projects. Yes I am talking about low cost design, construction and testing but not of quality.
                        >
                        > In one way MarsDrive has already succeeded in communications outreach as it has members from several forums, organizations and people on several continents being there eyes, ears and mouth for what MarsDrive is trying to communicate. We just need more of us to keep working things.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > My chance came to repond to the topic:
                        > > Ok what a surprise to get to see what has been worked on thus far and thank you for the efforts put forth.
                        > >
                        > > Here is my take after combining thoughts from both David and Ron...
                        > >
                        > > MarsDrive is a nonprofit organization dedicated to fostering the human habitation of the planet Mars. To achieve this will take a unique consortium plan to establish a design with the goal of developing of the needed assets to go to Mars to stay. Our plan is open to a joint venture of Nations, government agencies, private companies or investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this adventure to fund the first human mission to Mars. The business plan or architecture avoids the problem that plagues government-led space activity so that it will not rely on a massive buy-in by any single Nation, government agency nor organization to accomplish this task. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                        > >
                        > > I think some of what I have needs to be next in the business plan...
                        > >
                        > > Financial aspect:
                        > >
                        > > MarsDrive will work with other nations to do those things that fulfill the dreams of humankind, dreams that always have included the desire to see what lies beyond the known world. MarsDrive must have a simple, but compelling, long-term set of goals and a coherent, thoughtful plan to achieve them. MarsDrive will turn to accomplished citizens and world-class experts for independent advice and guidance on major program and policy issues.
                        > > MarsDrive by defining and pursuing the frontiers that expand humankind's reach with this "The Mars Mission Consortium" effort will create a shared system to pay for the journey through cooperation. Like in any joint venture of nation states, private investors and interested individuals it is desired to believe it to be profitable in the long run for humans. Some believe that a financial case for Mars has yet to be made or is even possible but without a financial plan we will have chance of going in this century. The joint venture team members will barter for like kind services as well as those through the normal contractor channels as a central fund will be created to manage the purchases of the assets as required for each part of the plan.
                        > > Initially, robotic missions will survey and characterize potential Mars landing sites, including sites that could become long-term outposts. These robotic missions will include orbiters to provide measurement characteristics for the Mars surface and the space environment in support of survival objectives. To test technologies for in situ resource utilization so astronauts can "live off the land." In the long term, this capability will reduce the amount of supplies and consumables launched from Earth to the Mars, making space exploration more affordable and sustainable. Technology development will include excavation systems, volatile material extraction systems, and other technologies to reduce logistics requirement for a Mars built habitat and other structures. In the future, in situ resource utilization systems will be used to produce propellants and oxygen from resources in regolith and potentially ice to meet the needs of Mars outpost crew.
                        > >
                        > > Building on successful demonstrations on the Moon via other nations space programs in new technologies of in-situ resource utilization. The Human mission to Mars plan will allow future explorers to use the resources of Mars identified by previous robotic missions to there fullest. Martian resources that will be useful in long-duration stays on the surface include carbon dioxide from the Martian atmosphere and expected sub-surface water ice and hydrated minerals to provide the essential components of breathable oxygen and rocket fuel for the return to Earth. Building upon early demonstrations of power systems, an electrical system could provide the energy to support explorers for up to 500 days on the Martian surface.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
                        > > >
                        > > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
                        > > >
                        > > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
                        > > > His words follow:
                        > > >
                        > > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
                        > > >
                        > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • spacenutnewmars
                        I followed up with more thoughts on the financing thoughts: Asset Planning: The Mars Mission Consortium - the private road to Mars The MarsDrive s team has
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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                          I followed up with more thoughts on the financing thoughts:

                          Asset Planning:

                          The Mars Mission Consortium - the private road to Mars

                          The MarsDrive's team has been reviewing the mission plans to Mars from many sources of accomplished citizens, world-class experts and space agencies in the effort to understand why we have not gone before now. As NASA was directed in the vision for space exploration for permanent settlement of the moon it is believed that the goal for Mars should be the same and no less.

                          While the moon plans start with short stay sortie mission the journey to mars is anything but short. The assets as required for each part of the plan will need to be developed with more than the design minimum capability of the initial surface stay of 500 days with the hope of a follow up crew making use of it.

                          The current timeline for Men to mars from the vision stand point is one of not just a decade but one that is under a half-century away. That said there is lots of robotic missions that can and will be used to offset the need for the investment of our own missions. MarsDrive will plan to utilize the numerous survey missions from orbiters, landers and rovers in as such to characterize potential Mars landing sites and search for the best sites that could become long-term outposts. Looking for the quintessential ingredients to support our main survival objectives.

                          Building on successful demonstrations on the Moon to test technologies for in situ resource utilization so astronauts can "live off the land." In the long term, this capability will reduce the amount of supplies and consumables launched from Earth to the Mars, making space exploration more affordable, sustainable and desirable to make such a journey profitable.

                          While the moon has its own unique set of conditions it is believed that the hardware and processes will be mature enough to make use of for the purpose of the crews survival. Such technology will include excavation systems, volatile material extraction systems, and other technologies to reduce logistics requirement for a Mars. As a goal from the onset it is planned that an in situ resource systems will produce propellants and oxygen from resources in regolith, the Martian atmosphere, potentially ice or sub-surface water ice and hydrated minerals to meet the needs of a Mars outpost and crew.


                          Like kind agreement:

                          The Mars Mission Consortium - the private road to Mars

                          The joint venture team members will barter for like kind services as to allow for the best chance of compatibility of interface and of application as well as for use. Which is hoped to spur on competition to provide, as Mars Consortium is not in the research to design what is needed business. When no like product is available it will then be selected through the normal contractor channels and purchased through the central fund.

                          The developed assets will be required to more than the design minimum capability of the initial surface stay of 500 days with the hope of a follow up crew making use of it. These systems will need to survive the environment to which they will be used in. While the moon has its own unique set of conditions it is believed that the hardware and processes will be mature enough to make use of for the purpose of the crews survival.


                          --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Ronald Cordes wanted another look at the wording:
                          >
                          > Any objections to dropping the word 'mission' so it is the "Mars Consortium"? It implies the consortium's vision is beyond one mission - its vision is the entire planet.
                          >
                          > TITLE: MarsDrive presents "The Mars Consortium" - the private road to Mars
                          > ABSTRACT:
                          > MarsDrive is a non-profit organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. To accomplish this goal we propose the establishment of a Mars Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and interested individuals. Membership in the consortium will be open to all who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human missions to Mars. The consortium's business strategy will not require a massive buy-in by any single nation, government agency, or private organization. This strategy avoids the reliance on a single funding source that has so plagued other non-governmental Mars proposals. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will present our current Design Reference Mission.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > At this point I gave a response to a forum posting to the topic on newmars or could have even been on the crashed MarsDrive site forum but in either case here is the comments:
                          > >
                          > > While I could not tell what was Jon's comments from David's I did want to reply to the last received message.
                          > >
                          > > Sure a gold mine no problem but unless it is refined to a very high quality than the plain ore found, even if it is of high level of content is not all that valuable from an investors stand point.
                          > >
                          > > We all understand that it is hard to come up with enough money to fund a mission of this sort and that short term investment is not going to get much in direct returns.
                          > >
                          > > Mars is long-term investments not only from the fact that it takes along time to go from here to there and back but also due to we are starting from scratch on every level.
                          > >
                          > > While we can desire a sample and return we do not as of yet have one in the planning from those that can do it so how can we expect something costing even more to be started.
                          > >
                          > > We collectively have done the research into what it will take and the one stumbling block is landing the mass we need in large chunks to the surface.
                          > >
                          > > So from an investment point of view would you belly up the money before a mission can occur to a group that has no money to begin with?
                          > >
                          > > Sure the items in Louis's comments would go along way to paying for a mission but it is hard to sell something that you have not done before.
                          > >
                          > > The case for a consortium which handles the control of funds and generating funds from rights is as sound as any direction to go but unless the partners are willing to give hard cash to the dream for a start then it will be on a slow track.
                          > >
                          > > MarsDrive's current efforts to give what little it can to projects in need of funds is a start once these are on there way as it will generate news of the contribution. This may help MarsDrive if successful for its future if the right spin is put on it.
                          > >
                          > > We all know the status of MarsDrive's membership, its ability to generate a revenue stream and how it needs to generate somehow critical mass to get the ball really moving.
                          > >
                          > > Currently with the site down it is hard to get new membership let alone say we have something of interest for then once they did visit the working pages.
                          > >
                          > > MarsDrive is a small organization but one that can be used to leverage communication to all of MS to get the much large numbers to work together under the single name that they share.
                          > >
                          > > Sure it may seem like the MS for USA is outsourcing what it would want done but then again it comes down to buying power and cost for what needs to happen. This is no different than the Mars Consortium approach that the group would like to venture to mars with in this aspect.
                          > >
                          > > Seeking out universities that could build what we would like is another means to the end for these same projects. Yes I am talking about low cost design, construction and testing but not of quality.
                          > >
                          > > In one way MarsDrive has already succeeded in communications outreach as it has members from several forums, organizations and people on several continents being there eyes, ears and mouth for what MarsDrive is trying to communicate. We just need more of us to keep working things.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > My chance came to repond to the topic:
                          > > > Ok what a surprise to get to see what has been worked on thus far and thank you for the efforts put forth.
                          > > >
                          > > > Here is my take after combining thoughts from both David and Ron...
                          > > >
                          > > > MarsDrive is a nonprofit organization dedicated to fostering the human habitation of the planet Mars. To achieve this will take a unique consortium plan to establish a design with the goal of developing of the needed assets to go to Mars to stay. Our plan is open to a joint venture of Nations, government agencies, private companies or investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this adventure to fund the first human mission to Mars. The business plan or architecture avoids the problem that plagues government-led space activity so that it will not rely on a massive buy-in by any single Nation, government agency nor organization to accomplish this task. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                          > > >
                          > > > I think some of what I have needs to be next in the business plan...
                          > > >
                          > > > Financial aspect:
                          > > >
                          > > > MarsDrive will work with other nations to do those things that fulfill the dreams of humankind, dreams that always have included the desire to see what lies beyond the known world. MarsDrive must have a simple, but compelling, long-term set of goals and a coherent, thoughtful plan to achieve them. MarsDrive will turn to accomplished citizens and world-class experts for independent advice and guidance on major program and policy issues.
                          > > > MarsDrive by defining and pursuing the frontiers that expand humankind's reach with this "The Mars Mission Consortium" effort will create a shared system to pay for the journey through cooperation. Like in any joint venture of nation states, private investors and interested individuals it is desired to believe it to be profitable in the long run for humans. Some believe that a financial case for Mars has yet to be made or is even possible but without a financial plan we will have chance of going in this century. The joint venture team members will barter for like kind services as well as those through the normal contractor channels as a central fund will be created to manage the purchases of the assets as required for each part of the plan.
                          > > > Initially, robotic missions will survey and characterize potential Mars landing sites, including sites that could become long-term outposts. These robotic missions will include orbiters to provide measurement characteristics for the Mars surface and the space environment in support of survival objectives. To test technologies for in situ resource utilization so astronauts can "live off the land." In the long term, this capability will reduce the amount of supplies and consumables launched from Earth to the Mars, making space exploration more affordable and sustainable. Technology development will include excavation systems, volatile material extraction systems, and other technologies to reduce logistics requirement for a Mars built habitat and other structures. In the future, in situ resource utilization systems will be used to produce propellants and oxygen from resources in regolith and potentially ice to meet the needs of Mars outpost crew.
                          > > >
                          > > > Building on successful demonstrations on the Moon via other nations space programs in new technologies of in-situ resource utilization. The Human mission to Mars plan will allow future explorers to use the resources of Mars identified by previous robotic missions to there fullest. Martian resources that will be useful in long-duration stays on the surface include carbon dioxide from the Martian atmosphere and expected sub-surface water ice and hydrated minerals to provide the essential components of breathable oxygen and rocket fuel for the return to Earth. Building upon early demonstrations of power systems, an electrical system could provide the energy to support explorers for up to 500 days on the Martian surface.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
                          > > > > His words follow:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • spacenutnewmars
                          Not sure who wrote this but it may have been Hal or Ron that made the comments: Financing the Mission Frank, I agree with you that a case can be made for a
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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                            Not sure who wrote this but it may have been Hal or Ron that made the comments:
                            Financing the Mission

                            Frank,
                            I agree with you that a case can be made for a profit from the first human landing on Mars. Here are a couple of wild and crazy ideas that are floating through my addled brain. The basis for most of this is that NASA had to give away (because it was financed with public funds) many things that we, as a NGO, can sell.
                            Sample Return. As you have said, samples can be sold for quite princely sums. I am targeting 1,000 kg of samples. What might that be worth?
                            Mission time. My philosophy is "if Science wants some benefit from this mission, Science should help pay for it." My oldest son is a Marine Biologist. Most of his research is using deep submersibles like Alvin. He and his associates pay $50,000 a day for ship time on 30-day cruises. All that, of course, is grant money. Scientists are used to paying for the time & equipment to do their research. So if someone wants us to analyze that rock over there, they pay for it.
                            Space on the crew. I think it should be obvious that if a nation wants to be a part of the mission, specifically by having one of their citizens as part of the crew, that comes with a hefty price. Perhaps that is an in-kind contribution, such as providing launch services, but could also be cold, hard cash in the case of a non-space-faring nation such as one of the Persian Gulf oil-rich nations.
                            Television time. TV advertising revenues were $1.5 billion for the 2004 Olympics in Athens, up from $1.3 billion during 2000 and just under $1 billion in 1996. Do you see where I am going? Project those numbers forward 20 years. NASA gave away the TV rights to what was the most watched event in television history on July 20, 1969. We are not similarly constrained. And we have two+ years of time to sell interviews with the crew en route, footage of the landing (shot from the pre-positioned habitat lander), footage of the first human to set foot on Mars, interviews with the crew on the surface, etc, etc, etc.
                            Real Estate. By some estimates, people have "bought" lunar real estate at $20 an acre for between $20 million and $100 million, depending on who you believe. Just Google "lunar real estate" and see what you get. There are a lot of lunatics (pun intended) out there. If we can keep a crew on Mars "permanently," we have a legitimate claim to ownership of the area around our landing site. If we own it, we can sell it. Legitimately. If groups like LunarRegistry.com, LunarLandOwner.com, MoonShop.com, RealMoonEstate.com, TeamMoonRealEstate, and many others can make millions selling what they do not own, what might we do? And why not start selling the rights now? If they can, we can. Once we land, the price goes (way) up.
                            Advertising. That photo of Neil Armstrong will live forever. His pressure suit said "NASA" and "USA." The photo of the first human to set foot on Mars will likewise live forever. What would Microsoft pay to have its logo on that pressure suit? Or Virgin Galactic? Or I don't really care if her pressure suit looks like a Nascar or a Formula One driver's Nomex suit, so long as people are paying for the exposure. Can't you see "Lipitor" over the suit's heart, "Viagra" in an appropriate place, etc? (Just kidding).
                            Naming Rights. Discovery, Eagle, Atlantis, Challenger, Odyssey, etc, were freebies. How much would someone spend for the right to name the first human lander? Or to name that big rock over there?
                            Movie rights. Pre-sold plus a % of the gross.
                            Equity. Why not incorporate somewhere that is more lenient than the good old US of A and sell shares in MarsDrive (or the Consortium) - call it "Mars Inc." - to whomever is interested? $100 buys you a share of the enterprise. All the mission right belong to the corporation. If we wind up owning a sizeable chunk of the planet, your share could be comparable to buying one share of Microsoft in 1981 or Xerox in 1962. And it is a relatively inexpensive way of both supporting and being a part owner of this adventure.
                            OK, enough babbling. I'm sure there are other angles I have missed, but that paints the general picture of how I see this thing moving forward. I think we can raise several billion without having to crawl on our knees.


                            --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Frank Stratford returned this response:
                            >
                            > The strategy I'm talking about is the idea of a consortium approach to funding a Mars mission. This idea was given support by NASA, the ESA and other academics recently (remember the Stanford meeting?). It is an approach whose time has come and it must be our strategy for this mission. The difference with our consortium approach is that it will be controlled by the private/semi private sector (at least in a management role) for keeping costs down and for helping to stimulate the new space sector (which does need stimulating).
                            > Usually consortium ideas have suggested NASA or the UN as the controlling partner but NASA's (and the UN's) lack of will in these matters is well established so other avenues are needed. To avoid international conflict and stalemates in this sort of project I believe that a neutral consortium ruling body should be largely controlled by the private sector and will have the added spin off of giving that sector valuable credibility and experience as they work on their own ways into space.
                            > For example, if Virgin Galactic and SpaceX were running this consortium and they were also trying to launch their own space tourism ventures (at the same time)imagine the credibility, and not to mention real spaceflight experience it would give them? Investors would be beating a path to their door. A privately controlled, government involved consortium is the basic "strategy" we are talking about here, and also how we as a group will go about pursuing that agenda. The Mars Society strategy was to lobby congress, ours will be to engage with professionals from all areas, government and private so that a consortium of this type is successfully formed- even if we aren't in control of it. After all, it is bigger than all of us anyway.
                            > I have said before that the success rate of the Mars Society with the U.S Government has been nil so we either walk that same path or we try something else, and this strategy is that something else.
                            > Our role in all this is to facilitate this consortium and to bring it into existence via negotiations, a strong business plan and a world class mission design. It will require of us a mixture of "pitching" to the correct players, negotiating and more of the general outreach work we already do. It will involve approaching many different people, companies and governments but it is not something we can't do. The other space groups might be content to keep beating their heads against a brick wall (NASA/Congress) and get approximately nowhere but this consortium idea is about us pushing for a radical change and taking a multi-faceted view of how to fund a Mars mission. For example- If a Mars mission costs 50 Billion and we have 50 governments involved over ten years that equals 100 million per year each, not very much in even corporate terms.
                            > This "strategy" also involves formulating a business plan where we can show how various aspects (as many as possible) of the mission can generate revenue for private investors. At this stage my thinking is that it will involve patents, spin offs and multiple user applications. For example- Our design calls for in orbit assembly of the various stages. This presents an opportunity for private investors to gain a return through associated spin off industries that could be created by a working orbital transportation system such as our mission will require, with uses like solar power satellites, orbital refuelling stations, space junk collecting stations and orbital ship building facilities being enabled through this sort of system.
                            > I'm sure business minded people will come up with many revenue generating applications we are yet to think of also.
                            > So here it is in simple terms-
                            > 1. The Consortium Concept
                            > 2. A Viable Business Plan
                            > 3. A Unique Mission Design
                            > 4. MarsDrive as one of the catalyst forces behind it all.
                            > We do not have to be NASA to make this happen, we can simply be the catalyst. If we can convey the impression that these (catalyst efforts) are things that anyone can do (and they are) and that our group is simply dedicating itself to pursuit of this strategy (and not more head banging) I think we will get that extra funding and support we need at some point. What we need is a clear message and to get it out as often as possible.
                            > All the other ideas we have, the public outreach, support of new space efforts and all the rest, cannot be conveyed in Ron's simple speech at ISDC. But they will remain part of who we are, and as we gain more real financial support we will have the resources to pursue them better. Even our 10kg idea can benefit from this strategy.
                            > So first- we open with the design, get their attention, then we spend the second half/or 2/3rds of the talk hitting them with our consortium concept and aim to blow them away.
                            > As to the strategy I'm referring to here- It's for the mission funding plan and design specifically. Though it will have indirect applications for our own strategies as a group. As to the phrase "without massive buy in from NASA", to be honest that is a very diplomatic way of saying- "Without relying upon NASA". I believe NASA will be involved if this thing begins to become real, but all we are simply saying is that we do not require the American tax payer to pay for our dreams, something they are likely to respect. It is a radical thing to say, true, and it will likely offend some people who look to NASA for all their dreams to come true but at some point someone has to point out the obvious- the 10 ton elephant in the room. NASA isn't the only way to Mars. Do we believe this or not? If we do, it's time to support our beliefs with some bold actions.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hal Fulton had additional comments:
                            > >
                            > > I do like this better. I'm very sensitive to looking like "a kitten trying to
                            > > roar like a lion."
                            > >
                            > > When you say "outline the MarsDrive strategy and briefly detail the mission" --
                            > > what does that mean? Does the mission occupy the main part of the talk or not?
                            > > And when you say "our strategy" -- is that only with respect to the mission, or
                            > > to everything we do (or plan to do)?
                            > >
                            > > I'm also still a little troubled by the phrase "without massive buy-in from NASA" --
                            > > though I find it hard to say why.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Frank Stratford return with his:
                            > > >
                            > > > First, we must consider our audience. Second, we have to consider our name- "Mars"Drive. Yes, we are about many other things, and I have been trying hard to convey this but to be honest it only seems to confuse people(due to our unknown status). Yes, we are about getting to Mars, and yes, we are about doing "whatever it takes" to get there, including supporting ideas the Mars Society usually steers away from(like space tourism, mining etc).
                            > > > We want to avoid sounding like the NSS or Mars Society as much as possible. The problem is that we are neither of these groups, we are much less well known and smaller in size. BUT- We do want people to focus. We do also want them to understand "everything" about us and to join us. We also need to be honest in what we say and I think Ron's message is just that. Many groups and people claim many things, few accomplish them. I think it's a part of these sorts of conferences. I honestly get sick of people getting up and claiming fantastic goals and then abandoning them and we don't want to do that.
                            > > > We want the people at ISDC to focus, to accept us as a mainstream space group and to get excited about our plans. We have tried giving them the "we are about everything in space" message once before (with Regan 2 years ago), and no one listened then. We also tried the "we are about public outreach" message last year, and again- little to no response. So I think this time we need to keep our focus simple, clear and on the mission design and most importantly the strategy that will make it a reality.
                            > > > We want to communicate a message this time. That message is that this "strategy" (the consortium idea and mission) is doable by anyone and is a superior strategy than putting all our eggs in the NASA basket (like the Mars Society and other space groups often do). It is meant to convey an alternative (but believable) path through the wilderness. So here are my points in brief-
                            > > > 1. Mindshare-People don't know us and don't care who we are currently, we have to change this.
                            > > > 2. Uniqueness-ISDC people hear lots of fantastic space plans- ours needs to be truly unique
                            > > > 3. Credibility-It must be believable, and to that end I have revised it to sound more "doable by anyone" and less about "us" making it all happen
                            > > > 4. Inspiration-If people can believe our strategy is possible that would be a major success for us
                            > > > 5. Focus-I want them to focus on the strategy and the design first, with MarsDrive a distant last
                            > > > 6. Support-If people accept (and get excited about) the strategy and design we have, they will then support MarsDrive
                            > > > The extra problem we have had until now is that we have so far used only enthusiastic amateurs to present our ideas, and coming from a group that is already unknown it is no wonder we have been ignored. I'm thankful for the efforts everyone has put in, and it's not their fault no one listens to us, it's just the way the space community "listens" to new ideas that we need to grasp better this time. This time Ron, who is qualified and a professional, is presenting this on our behalf. That act in itself is a major step forward for us. While we are about much more than Mars, at this point it will simply confuse people if we try the "we are about other things too" message. First let's get their attention and respect- then when they are listening we can talk to them about whatever we want, and a lot of that is already on our website. I have made some slight changes anyway to the wording to reflect the focus we want. Everything Ron wrote is factual, as is everything Hal wrote, but due to our unknown status we have to limit our focus this time for our intended audience. They will soon discover we are about much more than Mars- if we can get them to listen to us in the first place.
                            > > > Having said all this the idea of the "consortium" needs to be as clear and specific as we can get(just like Mars Direct), including exactly "how" it could be implemented. If we are not clear on those 2 points we will be back to square one. I took out the ownership phrasing and naming the consortium after MarsDrive because at this point no one would believe we could do such a thing on our own, and even if they do we are not ready (resource wise) to form such a consortium- though we can (and are) making a start, so let's reflect this reality in our words. Here is my revision anyway.---
                            > > >
                            > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to work towards putting together a Mars Mission Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission .
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The first response was from Hal Fulton to the opening thoughts and here is what he had to say:
                            > > > > This is just my opinion, and Frank's will trump it.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > My notes:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > 1. I think our audience is more interested in technical aspects than anything else.
                            > > > > 2. I'm nervous about making claims of trying to implement the mission (consortium).
                            > > > > Good idea, but we are *so* far from that!
                            > > > > 3. I'm a *tiny* bit nervous about the direct reference to NASA, especially with the
                            > > > > phrase "buy-in."
                            > > > > 4. I think we're about other things besides Mars, and it might be appropriate to say
                            > > > > so here.
                            > > > > 5. I think the DRM should be the focus of the talk -- over 50% of the meat.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This is how I would rewrite it:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > MarsDrive is dedicated to promoting all aspects of space exploration and commerce,
                            > > > > eventually leading to permanent human habitation of Mars. Our Mars mission plan
                            > > > > does not rely on a single large commitment by NASA or any other entity operating
                            > > > > alone; it is designed so that it can be implemented by a group including individual
                            > > > > investors, private companies, and international space agencies. This presentation
                            > > > > will outline our current Design Reference Mission in addition to presenting a brief
                            > > > > overview of our philosophy and activities.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
                            > > > > > His words follow:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • unknown_target01
                            Ok, so a lot of very long posts; is there a summary available? Re: where will we get/make money?
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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                              Ok, so a lot of very long posts; is there a summary available? Re: where will we get/make money?

                              --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I followed up with more thoughts on the financing thoughts:
                              >
                              > Asset Planning:
                              >
                              > The Mars Mission Consortium - the private road to Mars
                              >
                              > The MarsDrive's team has been reviewing the mission plans to Mars from many sources of accomplished citizens, world-class experts and space agencies in the effort to understand why we have not gone before now. As NASA was directed in the vision for space exploration for permanent settlement of the moon it is believed that the goal for Mars should be the same and no less.
                              >
                              > While the moon plans start with short stay sortie mission the journey to mars is anything but short. The assets as required for each part of the plan will need to be developed with more than the design minimum capability of the initial surface stay of 500 days with the hope of a follow up crew making use of it.
                              >
                              > The current timeline for Men to mars from the vision stand point is one of not just a decade but one that is under a half-century away. That said there is lots of robotic missions that can and will be used to offset the need for the investment of our own missions. MarsDrive will plan to utilize the numerous survey missions from orbiters, landers and rovers in as such to characterize potential Mars landing sites and search for the best sites that could become long-term outposts. Looking for the quintessential ingredients to support our main survival objectives.
                              >
                              > Building on successful demonstrations on the Moon to test technologies for in situ resource utilization so astronauts can "live off the land." In the long term, this capability will reduce the amount of supplies and consumables launched from Earth to the Mars, making space exploration more affordable, sustainable and desirable to make such a journey profitable.
                              >
                              > While the moon has its own unique set of conditions it is believed that the hardware and processes will be mature enough to make use of for the purpose of the crews survival. Such technology will include excavation systems, volatile material extraction systems, and other technologies to reduce logistics requirement for a Mars. As a goal from the onset it is planned that an in situ resource systems will produce propellants and oxygen from resources in regolith, the Martian atmosphere, potentially ice or sub-surface water ice and hydrated minerals to meet the needs of a Mars outpost and crew.
                              >
                              >
                              > Like kind agreement:
                              >
                              > The Mars Mission Consortium - the private road to Mars
                              >
                              > The joint venture team members will barter for like kind services as to allow for the best chance of compatibility of interface and of application as well as for use. Which is hoped to spur on competition to provide, as Mars Consortium is not in the research to design what is needed business. When no like product is available it will then be selected through the normal contractor channels and purchased through the central fund.
                              >
                              > The developed assets will be required to more than the design minimum capability of the initial surface stay of 500 days with the hope of a follow up crew making use of it. These systems will need to survive the environment to which they will be used in. While the moon has its own unique set of conditions it is believed that the hardware and processes will be mature enough to make use of for the purpose of the crews survival.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Ronald Cordes wanted another look at the wording:
                              > >
                              > > Any objections to dropping the word 'mission' so it is the "Mars Consortium"? It implies the consortium's vision is beyond one mission - its vision is the entire planet.
                              > >
                              > > TITLE: MarsDrive presents "The Mars Consortium" - the private road to Mars
                              > > ABSTRACT:
                              > > MarsDrive is a non-profit organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. To accomplish this goal we propose the establishment of a Mars Consortium - a joint venture of nation states, private investors and interested individuals. Membership in the consortium will be open to all who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human missions to Mars. The consortium's business strategy will not require a massive buy-in by any single nation, government agency, or private organization. This strategy avoids the reliance on a single funding source that has so plagued other non-governmental Mars proposals. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will present our current Design Reference Mission.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > At this point I gave a response to a forum posting to the topic on newmars or could have even been on the crashed MarsDrive site forum but in either case here is the comments:
                              > > >
                              > > > While I could not tell what was Jon's comments from David's I did want to reply to the last received message.
                              > > >
                              > > > Sure a gold mine no problem but unless it is refined to a very high quality than the plain ore found, even if it is of high level of content is not all that valuable from an investors stand point.
                              > > >
                              > > > We all understand that it is hard to come up with enough money to fund a mission of this sort and that short term investment is not going to get much in direct returns.
                              > > >
                              > > > Mars is long-term investments not only from the fact that it takes along time to go from here to there and back but also due to we are starting from scratch on every level.
                              > > >
                              > > > While we can desire a sample and return we do not as of yet have one in the planning from those that can do it so how can we expect something costing even more to be started.
                              > > >
                              > > > We collectively have done the research into what it will take and the one stumbling block is landing the mass we need in large chunks to the surface.
                              > > >
                              > > > So from an investment point of view would you belly up the money before a mission can occur to a group that has no money to begin with?
                              > > >
                              > > > Sure the items in Louis's comments would go along way to paying for a mission but it is hard to sell something that you have not done before.
                              > > >
                              > > > The case for a consortium which handles the control of funds and generating funds from rights is as sound as any direction to go but unless the partners are willing to give hard cash to the dream for a start then it will be on a slow track.
                              > > >
                              > > > MarsDrive's current efforts to give what little it can to projects in need of funds is a start once these are on there way as it will generate news of the contribution. This may help MarsDrive if successful for its future if the right spin is put on it.
                              > > >
                              > > > We all know the status of MarsDrive's membership, its ability to generate a revenue stream and how it needs to generate somehow critical mass to get the ball really moving.
                              > > >
                              > > > Currently with the site down it is hard to get new membership let alone say we have something of interest for then once they did visit the working pages.
                              > > >
                              > > > MarsDrive is a small organization but one that can be used to leverage communication to all of MS to get the much large numbers to work together under the single name that they share.
                              > > >
                              > > > Sure it may seem like the MS for USA is outsourcing what it would want done but then again it comes down to buying power and cost for what needs to happen. This is no different than the Mars Consortium approach that the group would like to venture to mars with in this aspect.
                              > > >
                              > > > Seeking out universities that could build what we would like is another means to the end for these same projects. Yes I am talking about low cost design, construction and testing but not of quality.
                              > > >
                              > > > In one way MarsDrive has already succeeded in communications outreach as it has members from several forums, organizations and people on several continents being there eyes, ears and mouth for what MarsDrive is trying to communicate. We just need more of us to keep working things.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > My chance came to repond to the topic:
                              > > > > Ok what a surprise to get to see what has been worked on thus far and thank you for the efforts put forth.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Here is my take after combining thoughts from both David and Ron...
                              > > > >
                              > > > > MarsDrive is a nonprofit organization dedicated to fostering the human habitation of the planet Mars. To achieve this will take a unique consortium plan to establish a design with the goal of developing of the needed assets to go to Mars to stay. Our plan is open to a joint venture of Nations, government agencies, private companies or investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this adventure to fund the first human mission to Mars. The business plan or architecture avoids the problem that plagues government-led space activity so that it will not rely on a massive buy-in by any single Nation, government agency nor organization to accomplish this task. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I think some of what I have needs to be next in the business plan...
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Financial aspect:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > MarsDrive will work with other nations to do those things that fulfill the dreams of humankind, dreams that always have included the desire to see what lies beyond the known world. MarsDrive must have a simple, but compelling, long-term set of goals and a coherent, thoughtful plan to achieve them. MarsDrive will turn to accomplished citizens and world-class experts for independent advice and guidance on major program and policy issues.
                              > > > > MarsDrive by defining and pursuing the frontiers that expand humankind's reach with this "The Mars Mission Consortium" effort will create a shared system to pay for the journey through cooperation. Like in any joint venture of nation states, private investors and interested individuals it is desired to believe it to be profitable in the long run for humans. Some believe that a financial case for Mars has yet to be made or is even possible but without a financial plan we will have chance of going in this century. The joint venture team members will barter for like kind services as well as those through the normal contractor channels as a central fund will be created to manage the purchases of the assets as required for each part of the plan.
                              > > > > Initially, robotic missions will survey and characterize potential Mars landing sites, including sites that could become long-term outposts. These robotic missions will include orbiters to provide measurement characteristics for the Mars surface and the space environment in support of survival objectives. To test technologies for in situ resource utilization so astronauts can "live off the land." In the long term, this capability will reduce the amount of supplies and consumables launched from Earth to the Mars, making space exploration more affordable and sustainable. Technology development will include excavation systems, volatile material extraction systems, and other technologies to reduce logistics requirement for a Mars built habitat and other structures. In the future, in situ resource utilization systems will be used to produce propellants and oxygen from resources in regolith and potentially ice to meet the needs of Mars outpost crew.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Building on successful demonstrations on the Moon via other nations space programs in new technologies of in-situ resource utilization. The Human mission to Mars plan will allow future explorers to use the resources of Mars identified by previous robotic missions to there fullest. Martian resources that will be useful in long-duration stays on the surface include carbon dioxide from the Martian atmosphere and expected sub-surface water ice and hydrated minerals to provide the essential components of breathable oxygen and rocket fuel for the return to Earth. Building upon early demonstrations of power systems, an electrical system could provide the energy to support explorers for up to 500 days on the Martian surface.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
                              > > > > > His words follow:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • spacenutnewmars
                              Last but not least in the series on financing a mars mission: The Mars Consortium Approach as written by Frank Stratford around Monday, July 21, 2008 was
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
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                                Last but not least in the series on financing a mars mission:

                                The Mars Consortium Approach as written by Frank Stratford around Monday, July 21, 2008 was penned and while it has much of the follow article I will not bore all with it here.

                                On the time line of events Frank Stratford wrote an article for The Space Review titled, The Mars Consortium approach. Government-funded Mars exploration with a private twist

                                http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1286/1

                                This is the final post of history and I hope that I have not overstepped to give its airing.
                                If so, I am sorry and delete what you will Frank of it.


                                Here is the newmars forum link to the consortium descusion...
                                www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6405




                                --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > My chance came to repond to the topic:
                                > Ok what a surprise to get to see what has been worked on thus far and thank you for the efforts put forth.
                                >
                                > Here is my take after combining thoughts from both David and Ron...
                                >
                                > MarsDrive is a nonprofit organization dedicated to fostering the human habitation of the planet Mars. To achieve this will take a unique consortium plan to establish a design with the goal of developing of the needed assets to go to Mars to stay. Our plan is open to a joint venture of Nations, government agencies, private companies or investors and individuals who desire to be a part of this adventure to fund the first human mission to Mars. The business plan or architecture avoids the problem that plagues government-led space activity so that it will not rely on a massive buy-in by any single Nation, government agency nor organization to accomplish this task. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive strategy and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                                >
                                > I think some of what I have needs to be next in the business plan...
                                >
                                > Financial aspect:
                                >
                                > MarsDrive will work with other nations to do those things that fulfill the dreams of humankind, dreams that always have included the desire to see what lies beyond the known world. MarsDrive must have a simple, but compelling, long-term set of goals and a coherent, thoughtful plan to achieve them. MarsDrive will turn to accomplished citizens and world-class experts for independent advice and guidance on major program and policy issues.
                                > MarsDrive by defining and pursuing the frontiers that expand humankind's reach with this "The Mars Mission Consortium" effort will create a shared system to pay for the journey through cooperation. Like in any joint venture of nation states, private investors and interested individuals it is desired to believe it to be profitable in the long run for humans. Some believe that a financial case for Mars has yet to be made or is even possible but without a financial plan we will have chance of going in this century. The joint venture team members will barter for like kind services as well as those through the normal contractor channels as a central fund will be created to manage the purchases of the assets as required for each part of the plan.
                                > Initially, robotic missions will survey and characterize potential Mars landing sites, including sites that could become long-term outposts. These robotic missions will include orbiters to provide measurement characteristics for the Mars surface and the space environment in support of survival objectives. To test technologies for in situ resource utilization so astronauts can "live off the land." In the long term, this capability will reduce the amount of supplies and consumables launched from Earth to the Mars, making space exploration more affordable and sustainable. Technology development will include excavation systems, volatile material extraction systems, and other technologies to reduce logistics requirement for a Mars built habitat and other structures. In the future, in situ resource utilization systems will be used to produce propellants and oxygen from resources in regolith and potentially ice to meet the needs of Mars outpost crew.
                                >
                                > Building on successful demonstrations on the Moon via other nations space programs in new technologies of in-situ resource utilization. The Human mission to Mars plan will allow future explorers to use the resources of Mars identified by previous robotic missions to there fullest. Martian resources that will be useful in long-duration stays on the surface include carbon dioxide from the Martian atmosphere and expected sub-surface water ice and hydrated minerals to provide the essential components of breathable oxygen and rocket fuel for the return to Earth. Building upon early demonstrations of power systems, an electrical system could provide the energy to support explorers for up to 500 days on the Martian surface.
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In marsdrivemission@yahoogroups.com, "spacenutnewmars" <spacenutnewmars@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Jordan, I know that you have not heard put forth by anyone a real plan for making money off of a Mars mission. Everyone has been saying "well we'll do this, maybe. Kinda.
                                > >
                                > > So here is a bit of history first on the financial aspects of funding or the plan started to take shape last year sort of off line between those that were preparing the common lander proposal for the ISDC 2008 conference that Ron attended to pitch to the attendies.
                                > >
                                > > I came in after quite abit of this was being tossed around as you will find out.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Ronald Cordes wanted to open with a statement to what we were proposing.
                                > > His words follow:
                                > >
                                > > Here is my first pass at an abstract for an ISDC 08 talk. Is this what we want to say?
                                > >
                                > > MarsDrive is an organization dedicated to fostering the permanent human habitation of the planet Mars. Our plan does not rely on a massive buy-in by NASA to accomplish. Rather, our goal is to put together the MarsDrive Consortium - a joint venture of individuals, private investors, and nation-states who desire to be a part of this greatest of all human adventures - to fund, develop, and fly the first human mission to Mars. This presentation will outline the MarsDrive program and will briefly detail our current Design Reference Mission.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Let me post each so that it can make sense to those who will read this.
                                > >
                                >
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