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Re: [magnifiers] Re: Anyone have a Mac?

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  • Kevin Brown
    Thanks for this info! I stopped by the local Apple store (at Tysons Corner in VA) and the local Mac geniuses were totally clueless about accessibility
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 21, 2006
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      Thanks for this info! I stopped by the local Apple store (at Tysons Corner
      in VA) and the local 'Mac geniuses' were totally clueless about
      accessibility options. It's really so good to hear that Apple have included
      all this good stuff right in their OS. I'm thinking of maybe picking up a
      Mini once they get the intel chip in there, hopefully sometime this year.

      I wonder if Windows Vista will have better accessibility options built in as
      well? <sorry Mac fans, herassy, I know!>

      Kevin


      On 1/22/06, lpnalda <lpnalda@...> wrote:
      >
      > Wow didn't see your post a second ago but see mine above. I'm using
      > 10.4.2 (Tiger) with
      > Zoom and VoiceOver and loving it.
      >
      > Ok it's not perfect. I'll say this from the start. Zoom has trouble
      > tracking in the emailer
      > but I've let them know about that. Also neither are that friendly with
      > the terminal program
      > and X11 (the X windows emulation that will let you run linux apps. Some
      > word processors
      > have a bit of trouble with Zoom but VoiceOver seems fine.
      >
      > Ok so what's my advice? 1. if you can, find an Apple store (not a
      > reseller) in your area.
      > then 2. make an appointment at their Genius bar and talk to them. They
      > should be able to
      > give you a good overview and demo.
      >
      > Good luck and if I can answer any questions at all i'll try. But if you
      > buy a system, I know
      > you won't be paying $300+ on accessibility software.
      >
      >
      > --- In magnifiers@yahoogroups.com, Paul <pauls@w...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Does anyone have a Mac and use the magnification/speech software
      > > included with Tiger? Is it any good? I'm thinking of switching to Mac.
      > > :)
      > >
      > > -Paul.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
      > http://www.magnifiers.org
      > Make It Visible!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >
      > - Visit your group "magnifiers<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/magnifiers>"
      > on the web.
      >
      > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > magnifiers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<magnifiers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      >
      > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Paul
      On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 02:00:09 -0500, Kevin Brown ... When pigs fly, sadly. :) -Paul.
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 22, 2006
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        On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 02:00:09 -0500, Kevin Brown <kb1381@...>
        wrote:

        >I wonder if Windows Vista will have better accessibility options built in as
        >well? <sorry Mac fans, herassy, I know!>
        >
        >Kevin

        When pigs fly, sadly. :)

        -Paul.
      • Pete Nalda
        Naah, they can t do that because that would thwart all their cronies that sell the stuff for Windoz for $$$$$$$. Sorry folks I m just a crabby, cynical old
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 22, 2006
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          Naah, they can't do that because that would thwart all their cronies
          that sell the stuff for Windoz for $$$$$$$.

          Sorry folks I'm just a crabby, cynical old anti-establishmentarian.

          On Jan 22, 2006, at 3:39 AM, Paul wrote:

          > On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 02:00:09 -0500, Kevin Brown <kb1381@...>
          > wrote:
          >
          >
          >> I wonder if Windows Vista will have better accessibility options
          >> built in as
          >> well? <sorry Mac fans, herassy, I know!>
          >>
          >> Kevin
          >>
          >
          > When pigs fly, sadly. :)
          >
          > -Paul.
          >
          >
          >
          > The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
          > http://www.magnifiers.org
          > Make It Visible!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          "Egun On, Lagunak!" (Basque for G'day Mates)
          Pete Nalda
        • Paul
          On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:56:28 -0600, Pete Nalda ... So; by your logic, Microsoft wouldn t want to include a quality magnifier because
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 22, 2006
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            On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:56:28 -0600, Pete Nalda <lpnalda@...>
            wrote:

            >Naah, they can't do that because that would thwart all their cronies
            >that sell the stuff for Windoz for $$$$$$$.

            So; by your logic, Microsoft wouldn't want to include a quality
            magnifier because then the developers of magnifiers (who have nothing to
            do with Microsoft and share no profits with Microsoft) wouldn't make a
            profit on the software that they develop? That makes absolutely no sense
            whatsoever. Or did you mean something else?

            Cronies? Do you expect companies who spend tens of thousands of dollars
            and thousands of man hours developing software to just give it away or
            sell it at a loss because you think you're special and shouldn't have to
            pay a higher price for software with a limited appeal? The ultimate goal
            of a business is to turn a profit. This is done by making quality
            software that proves itself worthy of a premium price. Low vision users
            are a minority- period. Therefore, any company making adaptive software
            has a very small user-base to sell it's product to.

            There's a reason the cheaper; lower quality magnifiers come and go
            overnight; and the established ones have built a solid reputation and
            user base- Quality. When you think of a quality; feature rich magnifier,
            you don't think of some freeware program with limited features- you
            think of ZoomText, or Lunar, and so forth.

            The reason Microsoft doesn't work on a decent magnifier for Windows is
            because A). They want to do the bare minimum to meet the ADA Act
            standards, B). With all of the great existing
            magnification/screen-reading software out there (Jaws, ZoomText,
            Dolphin, etc) there's no need for them to do so. Microsoft is clueless
            about the needs of low vision computer users. Apple has them beat by a
            country mile in that department.

            In Apple's case; there *is* no pre-existing 3rd party screenreader or
            magnifier because Apple is already a minority in the world of computer
            users (strike 1) and disabled Mac users make up an even smaller
            percentage (strike 2) which means it's not worth the investments that
            third party software developers had tried to make in the past. Apple saw
            there was a need; and filled it.

            Comparing the Windows adaptive software situation to the Apple on is (if
            you pardon the pun) apples and oranges. They're two entierly different
            markets with different issues.

            Would I like to see a ZoomText-quality magnifier included with the next
            version of Windows? Sure; It would be nice... but Microsoft knows that
            they're not in touch with what low vision customers need/want and have
            decided to leave that up to the more qualified companies who have their
            fingers on the pulse of the low vision community.


            -Paul.
          • BruceHP@aol.com
            In a message dated 1/22/2006 10:06:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ... you pardon the pun) apples and oranges. They re two entierly different ... I don t think
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 22, 2006
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              In a message dated 1/22/2006 10:06:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              pauls@... writes:

              >Comparing the Windows adaptive software situation to the Apple on is (if
              you pardon the pun) apples and oranges. They're two entierly different
              >markets with different issues.
              I don't think that there as much different markets as different Marketing.
              Apple controls the hardware and most of the software and they charge one
              price for the package, there as the PC world is much more ala carte. You can buy
              a PC with Office and ZoomText for less than the price of a Mac. And Mac's
              magnifier doesn't need to deal with nearly as many configs as the PC's. Not
              to mention that the Mac's adaptive software isn't nearly as comprehensive as
              ZTx.

              >Would I like to see a ZoomText-quality magnifier included with the next
              version of Windows? Sure; It would be nice... but Microsoft knows that
              they're not in touch with what low vision customers need/want and have
              decided to leave that up to the more qualified companies who have their
              fingers on the pulse of the low vision community.
              >-Paul.


              The research for this wouldn't take more than a week or so, but MS wouldn't
              start from scratch they would buy the software and develop it from there.

              --================
              Keep Shooting!
              BruceHP@...
              =================


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Pete Nalda
              Ok i know I thought I was trying to be sorta half humored in my post and my opinions. It wasn t my intent to bash commercial software and quality programming.
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 22, 2006
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                Ok i know I thought I was trying to be sorta half humored in my post
                and my opinions. It wasn't my intent to bash commercial software and
                quality programming.

                That being said, I do stand by my beleifs in that I think it was a
                nice gesture that Apple went that extra step in their accessibility
                suite by offering with the OS and yeah for what it's worth I think I
                deserve that. Yeah it's not perfect, but it's an alternative and
                that is a good thing. I'm encouraging them to make it better too.
              • Chris O'Donnell
                ... Another reason is tech-related. Apple is designed to run on a much limited hardware set. Microsoft is designed to run on a much broader hardware set.
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 23, 2006
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                  On 1/22/06, Paul <pauls@...> wrote:
                  > The reason Microsoft doesn't work on a decent magnifier for Windows is
                  > because A). They want to do the bare minimum to meet the ADA Act
                  > standards, B). With all of the great existing
                  > magnification/screen-reading software out there (Jaws, ZoomText,
                  > Dolphin, etc) there's no need for them to do so. Microsoft is clueless
                  > about the needs of low vision computer users. Apple has them beat by a
                  > country mile in that department.

                  Another reason is tech-related. Apple is designed to run on a much
                  limited hardware set. Microsoft is designed to run on a much broader
                  hardware set. Making a high-quality magnifier for windows is more
                  difficult (i.e. more expensive) than probably with Mac because on
                  Windows you will need to interface directly to the device driver, or
                  use DirectX. On Mac, you probably do something similar as well, but
                  only for a small number of video display hardware possibilities. On
                  Windows, you then have to make sure your high-quality magnifier will
                  work with a rather large variety of hardware types, and this is a
                  painful (again expensive) task. This is one of the main factors in
                  the pricing for the high-quality magnifiers -- it truly does cost that
                  much to develop and maintain. Microsoft seems like they are not
                  interested in investing that much energy to create a magnifier. (As
                  an aside, if you have a dual-monitor system, please remember that the
                  Windows magnifier is a GREAT solution).

                  However, that *might* change somewhat with Windows Vista. I can
                  easily imagine they will again provide a "free" magnifier with the new
                  OS and that one will certainly take advantage of the new rendering
                  technologies in Vista, WPM which is really DirectX, so their free
                  magnifier may work very well as a "medium-level" solution. Again, for
                  this type of solution, the user must pay for Vista and have "decent"
                  hardware that will support DirectX for Vista.

                  While I'm on a roll here predicting the future, AiSquared and Dolphin,
                  etc... will stay ahead of the curve, I think they will continue to
                  provide the highest-quality AT software on the windows platform, yes
                  I'm very optimistic.

                  And for those who are interested, my freeware app, Virtual Magnifying
                  Glass, now has a new developer, bringing our grand total to... 2
                  active developers. Yes, we're very small, definitely the "shoestring
                  budget" but we will continue to add more AT features over time. The
                  good news is that a DirectX solution with contrast enhancements is
                  *entirely* feasible for a freeware solution for windows.

                  Well, everyone have a nice day,
                  -Chris O

                  On 1/22/06, Paul <pauls@...> wrote:
                  > The reason Microsoft doesn't work on a decent magnifier for Windows is
                  > because A). They want to do the bare minimum to meet the ADA Act
                  > standards, B). With all of the great existing
                  > magnification/screen-reading software out there (Jaws, ZoomText,
                  > Dolphin, etc) there's no need for them to do so. Microsoft is clueless
                  > about the needs of low vision computer users. Apple has them beat by a
                  > country mile in that department.
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