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Re: [magnifiers] Microsoft Dialog Units vs. Pixels

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  • Peter Verhoeven
    Hi Bas, Support for Java accessibility is planned in ZoomText 8. The new version 5 release of Dolphin products (Lunar, LunarPlus, Supernova), will NOT support
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 7, 2001
      Hi Bas,

      Support for Java accessibility is planned in ZoomText 8.
      The new version 5 release of Dolphin products (Lunar, LunarPlus,
      Supernova), will NOT support Java Accessibility.
      BTW: regarding Java access: promised is a lot, but I first like to see it
      before believe it.

      Regards Peter Verhoeven


      At 20:58 07-08-01 +0200, you wrote:
      >Peter Verhoeven wrote:
      >
      > >Yes, this causes tracking problems. Screen magnifiers track on Windows
      > >events like dialog boxes, menus etc. If these are designed graphically
      > >screen magnifiers are not tracking on elements and objects in that user
      > >interface. The number of those "modern" interfaces is growing and causes a
      > >lot of problems for users of screen magnifiers and screen readers.
      > >
      >Please note that GUIs built on the Java 2 platform (better known as
      >JFC/Swing) are the only exception in this category. These GUIs have
      >accessibility features built-in, which promise better compatibility with
      >screen magnifiers and -readers than the "standard" Microsoft GUI. See my
      >post earlier this week for an in-depth article about the accessibility of
      >JFC/Swing GUIs.
      >
      >Henter Joyce and Ai Squared are both in the process of implementing
      >JFC/Swing compatibility in their products. Unfortunately I don't know when
      >these implementations will be available to the public.
      >Does anybody have more information about this?
      >
      >Thanks in advance,
      >Bas
      >
      >--
      >Bas E. Cancrinus <bas@...>
      >Product Manager RepTrack (TM) <http://www.reptrack.nl>
      >Developer Cancrinus Search <http://www.csearch.nl>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
      >
      >http://www.magnifiers.org
      >
      >
      >
      >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
      >
      >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Bas Cancrinus
      ... Ok, but the architecture of the Java 2 platform provides universal accessibility from scratch. This is a more solid basis than the current situation where
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 8, 2001
        Peter Verhoeven wrote:

        >BTW: regarding Java access: promised is a lot, but I first like to see it
        >before believe it.
        >
        Ok, but the architecture of the Java 2 platform provides universal
        accessibility from scratch. This is a more solid basis than the current
        situation where accessibility "options" are "special features" of platforms.
        See http://www.sun.com/access/downloads/index.html for an indication of
        booked progress in practice.

        Regards,
        Bas

        --
        Bas E. Cancrinus <bas@...>
        Product Manager RepTrack (TM) <http://www.reptrack.nl>
        Developer Cancrinus Search <http://www.csearch.nl>
      • Peter Verhoeven
        Hi Bas, To make Java accessible for screen readers and screen magnifiers the access product must support the accessibility classes and the Java application
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 9, 2001
          Hi Bas,

          To make Java accessible for screen readers and screen magnifiers the access
          product must support the accessibility classes and the Java application
          itself must support it. At the url you mention below I can not find any
          information, that this concept will be changed. It is the same concept as
          Microsoft Active Accessibility. that concept is only used by Microsoft. I
          do not know any third party application supporting Microsoft Active
          Accessibility (MSAA) and why should developers of Java applications support
          SUN's accessibility classes?

          Regards Peter Verhoeven

          At 14:23 08-08-01 +0200, you wrote:
          >Peter Verhoeven wrote:
          >
          > >BTW: regarding Java access: promised is a lot, but I first like to see it
          > >before believe it.
          > >
          >Ok, but the architecture of the Java 2 platform provides universal
          >accessibility from scratch. This is a more solid basis than the current
          >situation where accessibility "options" are "special features" of platforms.
          >See http://www.sun.com/access/downloads/index.html for an indication of
          >booked progress in practice.
          >
          >Regards,
          >Bas
          >
          >--
          >Bas E. Cancrinus <bas@...>
          >Product Manager RepTrack (TM) <http://www.reptrack.nl>
          >Developer Cancrinus Search <http://www.csearch.nl>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
          >
          >http://www.magnifiers.org
          >
          >
          >
          >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
          >
          >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Mike Hill
          Hi Peter, Corel (WordPerfect) and Adobe (Acrobat) immediately spring to mind as non-Microsoft vendors who have added MSAA support to their apps to make them
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 9, 2001
            Hi Peter,
            Corel (WordPerfect) and Adobe (Acrobat) immediately spring to mind as
            non-Microsoft vendors who have added MSAA support to their apps to make
            them accessible.

            Developers of Java applications should support SUN's accessibility
            classes if they want their applications to be accessible. Isn't that a
            good enough reason? If accessibility is built into the Java 2 platform
            then that's all the better. It's a bit like MSAA being built into
            Microsoft standard controls. However, application writers have a habit
            of using non-standard controls and libraries, so Java 2 is not going to
            guarantee accessibility unless the software developers follow the rules
            and use the UI classes provided.

            Regards,
            Mike.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: pav@... [mailto:pav@...] Sent: 09 August 2001 14:19
            To: magnifiers@yahoogroups.com; magnifiers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [magnifiers] Microsoft Dialog Units vs. Pixels

            Hi Bas,

            To make Java accessible for screen readers and screen magnifiers the
            access product must support the accessibility classes and the Java
            application itself must support it. At the url you mention below I can
            not find any information, that this concept will be changed. It is the
            same concept as Microsoft Active Accessibility. that concept is only
            used by Microsoft. I do not know any third party application supporting
            Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) and why should developers of Java
            applications support SUN's accessibility classes?

            Regards Peter Verhoeven

            At 14:23 08-08-01 +0200, you wrote:
            >Peter Verhoeven wrote:
            >
            > >BTW: regarding Java access: promised is a lot, but I first like to
            see it
            > >before believe it.
            > >
            >Ok, but the architecture of the Java 2 platform provides universal
            >accessibility from scratch. This is a more solid basis than the current
            >situation where accessibility "options" are "special features" of
            platforms.
            >See http://www.sun.com/access/downloads/index.html for an indication of
            >booked progress in practice.
            >
            >Regards,
            >Bas
            >
            >--
            >Bas E. Cancrinus <bas@...>
            >Product Manager RepTrack (TM) <http://www.reptrack.nl>
            >Developer Cancrinus Search <http://www.csearch.nl>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
            >
            >http://www.magnifiers.org
            >
            >
            >
            >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
            >
            >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




            The Screen Magnifiers Homepage

            http://www.magnifiers.org



            To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...

            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            magnifiers-unsubscribe@...

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Peter Verhoeven
            Hi Mike, I should prefer a concept, that forces developers to use standard controls. Now we stay dependend on developers. Regards Peter Verhoeven
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 9, 2001
              Hi Mike,

              I should prefer a concept, that forces developers to use standard controls.
              Now we stay dependend on developers.

              Regards Peter Verhoeven

              At 14:25 09-08-01 +0100, you wrote:
              >Hi Peter,
              >Corel (WordPerfect) and Adobe (Acrobat) immediately spring to mind as
              >non-Microsoft vendors who have added MSAA support to their apps to make
              >them accessible.
              >
              >Developers of Java applications should support SUN's accessibility
              >classes if they want their applications to be accessible. Isn't that a
              >good enough reason? If accessibility is built into the Java 2 platform
              >then that's all the better. It's a bit like MSAA being built into
              >Microsoft standard controls. However, application writers have a habit
              >of using non-standard controls and libraries, so Java 2 is not going to
              >guarantee accessibility unless the software developers follow the rules
              >and use the UI classes provided.
              >
              >Regards,
              >Mike.
              >
              >-----Original Message-----
              >From: pav@... [mailto:pav@...] Sent: 09 August 2001 14:19
              >To: magnifiers@yahoogroups.com; magnifiers@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [magnifiers] Microsoft Dialog Units vs. Pixels
              >
              >Hi Bas,
              >
              >To make Java accessible for screen readers and screen magnifiers the
              >access product must support the accessibility classes and the Java
              >application itself must support it. At the url you mention below I can
              >not find any information, that this concept will be changed. It is the
              >same concept as Microsoft Active Accessibility. that concept is only
              >used by Microsoft. I do not know any third party application supporting
              >Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) and why should developers of Java
              >applications support SUN's accessibility classes?
              >
              >Regards Peter Verhoeven
              >
              >At 14:23 08-08-01 +0200, you wrote:
              > >Peter Verhoeven wrote:
              > >
              > > >BTW: regarding Java access: promised is a lot, but I first like to
              >see it
              > > >before believe it.
              > > >
              > >Ok, but the architecture of the Java 2 platform provides universal
              > >accessibility from scratch. This is a more solid basis than the current
              > >situation where accessibility "options" are "special features" of
              >platforms.
              > >See http://www.sun.com/access/downloads/index.html for an indication of
              > >booked progress in practice.
              > >
              > >Regards,
              > >Bas
              > >
              > >--
              > >Bas E. Cancrinus <bas@...>
              > >Product Manager RepTrack (TM) <http://www.reptrack.nl>
              > >Developer Cancrinus Search <http://www.csearch.nl>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
              > >
              > >http://www.magnifiers.org
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
              > >
              > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              >magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
              > >
              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
              >
              >http://www.magnifiers.org
              >
              >
              >
              >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
              >
              >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              >magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
              >
              >http://www.magnifiers.org
              >
              >
              >
              >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
              >
              >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Mike Hill
              Hi Peter, Yes, I would like to force developers to use standard controls as well. It would make my job a bit easier! However, you could easily argue that
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 9, 2001
                Hi Peter,
                Yes, I would like to force developers to use standard controls as well.
                It would make my job a bit easier!

                However, you could easily argue that forcing people to use standard
                controls would take away their freedom of expression.

                If Microsoft wanted to, they could try and force people to use more
                standard controls or comply with the accessibility guidelines when they
                created web pages. There is nothing technical stopping them, it's just
                political will power.

                Imagine for a moment that the next version of Internet Explorer refused
                to load web pages that had accessibility problems, or refused to run
                Java applets that didn't support the accessibility classes, or popped up
                some 'warning this site is not Accessible' dialog. Don't you think that
                would force people to quickly redesign their sites? I am sure that
                similar principles could be applied to the operating system, where it
                would check if the application supported MSAA or not.

                Regards
                Mike.
                -----Original Message-----
                From: pav@... [mailto:pav@...] Sent: 09 August 2001 14:48
                To: magnifiers@yahoogroups.com; magnifiers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [magnifiers] Microsoft Dialog Units vs. Pixels

                Hi Mike,

                I should prefer a concept, that forces developers to use standard
                controls.
                Now we stay dependend on developers.

                Regards Peter Verhoeven

                At 14:25 09-08-01 +0100, you wrote:
                >Hi Peter,
                >Corel (WordPerfect) and Adobe (Acrobat) immediately spring to mind as
                >non-Microsoft vendors who have added MSAA support to their apps to make
                >them accessible.
                >
                >Developers of Java applications should support SUN's accessibility
                >classes if they want their applications to be accessible. Isn't that a
                >good enough reason? If accessibility is built into the Java 2 platform
                >then that's all the better. It's a bit like MSAA being built into
                >Microsoft standard controls. However, application writers have a habit
                >of using non-standard controls and libraries, so Java 2 is not going to
                >guarantee accessibility unless the software developers follow the rules
                >and use the UI classes provided.
                >
                >Regards,
                >Mike.
                >
                >-----Original Message-----
                >From: pav@... [mailto:pav@...] Sent: 09 August 2001 14:19
                >To: magnifiers@yahoogroups.com; magnifiers@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [magnifiers] Microsoft Dialog Units vs. Pixels
                >
                >Hi Bas,
                >
                >To make Java accessible for screen readers and screen magnifiers the
                >access product must support the accessibility classes and the Java
                >application itself must support it. At the url you mention below I can
                >not find any information, that this concept will be changed. It is the
                >same concept as Microsoft Active Accessibility. that concept is only
                >used by Microsoft. I do not know any third party application supporting
                >Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) and why should developers of Java
                >applications support SUN's accessibility classes?
                >
                >Regards Peter Verhoeven
                >
                >At 14:23 08-08-01 +0200, you wrote:
                > >Peter Verhoeven wrote:
                > >
                > > >BTW: regarding Java access: promised is a lot, but I first like to
                >see it
                > > >before believe it.
                > > >
                > >Ok, but the architecture of the Java 2 platform provides universal
                > >accessibility from scratch. This is a more solid basis than the
                current
                > >situation where accessibility "options" are "special features" of
                >platforms.
                > >See http://www.sun.com/access/downloads/index.html for an indication
                of
                > >booked progress in practice.
                > >
                > >Regards,
                > >Bas
                > >
                > >--
                > >Bas E. Cancrinus <bas@...>
                > >Product Manager RepTrack (TM) <http://www.reptrack.nl>
                > >Developer Cancrinus Search <http://www.csearch.nl>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
                > >
                > >http://www.magnifiers.org
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
                > >
                > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                >magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
                > >
                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
                >
                >http://www.magnifiers.org
                >
                >
                >
                >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
                >
                >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                >magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
                >
                >http://www.magnifiers.org
                >
                >
                >
                >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
                >
                >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                The Screen Magnifiers Homepage

                http://www.magnifiers.org



                To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...

                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                magnifiers-unsubscribe@...

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Tomás Alfonso García
                ... From: Mike Hill To: Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: RE: [magnifiers]
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 10, 2001
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Mike Hill" <mike.hill@...>
                  To: <magnifiers@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 3:25 PM
                  Subject: RE: [magnifiers] Microsoft Dialog Units vs. Pixels


                  > Hi Peter,
                  > Corel (WordPerfect) and Adobe (Acrobat) immediately spring to mind as
                  > non-Microsoft vendors who have added MSAA support to their apps to make
                  > them accessible.
                  >
                  > Developers of Java applications should support SUN's accessibility
                  > classes if they want their applications to be accessible. Isn't that a
                  > good enough reason? If accessibility is built into the Java 2 platform
                  > then that's all the better. It's a bit like MSAA being built into
                  > Microsoft standard controls. However, application writers have a habit
                  > of using non-standard controls and libraries, so Java 2 is not going to
                  > guarantee accessibility unless the software developers follow the rules
                  > and use the UI classes provided.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Mike.
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: pav@... [mailto:pav@...] Sent: 09 August 2001 14:19
                  > To: magnifiers@yahoogroups.com; magnifiers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [magnifiers] Microsoft Dialog Units vs. Pixels
                  >
                  > Hi Bas,
                  >
                  > To make Java accessible for screen readers and screen magnifiers the
                  > access product must support the accessibility classes and the Java
                  > application itself must support it. At the url you mention below I can
                  > not find any information, that this concept will be changed. It is the
                  > same concept as Microsoft Active Accessibility. that concept is only
                  > used by Microsoft. I do not know any third party application supporting
                  > Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) and why should developers of Java
                  > applications support SUN's accessibility classes?
                  >
                  > Regards Peter Verhoeven
                  >
                  > At 14:23 08-08-01 +0200, you wrote:
                  > >Peter Verhoeven wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >BTW: regarding Java access: promised is a lot, but I first like to
                  > see it
                  > > >before believe it.
                  > > >
                  > >Ok, but the architecture of the Java 2 platform provides universal
                  > >accessibility from scratch. This is a more solid basis than the current
                  > >situation where accessibility "options" are "special features" of
                  > platforms.
                  > >See http://www.sun.com/access/downloads/index.html for an indication of
                  > >booked progress in practice.
                  > >
                  > >Regards,
                  > >Bas
                  > >
                  > >--
                  > >Bas E. Cancrinus <bas@...>
                  > >Product Manager RepTrack (TM) <http://www.reptrack.nl>
                  > >Developer Cancrinus Search <http://www.csearch.nl>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
                  > >
                  > >http://www.magnifiers.org
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
                  > >
                  > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
                  > >
                  > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
                  >
                  > http://www.magnifiers.org
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The Screen Magnifiers Homepage
                  >
                  > http://www.magnifiers.org
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: magnifiers@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  magnifiers-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
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