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Re: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?

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  • Craig Martin
    I m experimenting with GIT and github I ve used subversion successfully in the past to manage magic/web development projects but there as here this isn t
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 1, 2008
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      I'm experimenting with GIT and github

      I've used subversion successfully in the past to manage magic/web
      development projects
      but there as here this isn't integrated into eDeveloper Studio (I
      think there is some future R&D commitment
      to Magic supporting subversion) but every thing is in version control at least

      Early days, some success, no gotchas encountered

      I'm pretty sure this won't integrate with edev studio but I didn't try yet,
      I'm happy managing it externally

      Having lost about a week when sp1 bricked my laptop (an issue
      still unresolved though my tech support terminal at Microsoft is working
      his little socks off...), well, I don't want to tempt the Fates...

      Anyway, worth a look



      2008/5/31 ajreynolds1 <ajreynolds@...>:
      > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a version
      > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built in MVCS
      > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was simple
      > and fast.
      >
      > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but it is
      > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
      > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
      > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first setting
      > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
      >
      > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that it may be
      > even slower than CVS.
      >
      > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Andy
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Steven Burrows
      So far we are very happy with MS VSS. Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and hasn t FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
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        So far we are very happy with MS VSS.

        Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and hasn't
        FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code between
        releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to code share
        will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big release. VSS
        certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs in our
        application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have any of the
        monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In the early
        releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would never go
        anywhere near it again.



        We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.



        Steven Burrows

        ________________________________

        From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:magicu-l@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of ajreynolds1
        Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
        To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?



        We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a version
        control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built in MVCS
        to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was simple
        and fast.

        With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but it is
        unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
        ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
        single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first setting
        up our application in it, it crashed several times.

        I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that it may be
        even slower than CVS.

        What version control packages do people prefer around here?

        Thanks,
        Andy





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rosie Coller
        I second what Steven says, including the Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
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          I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being forced into it,
          but it is really nice'

          VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster program it
          is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import initially was
          only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you run 'Get
          Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything else is
          very fast.

          I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just about being
          forced to buy it).

          Rosie

          2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@...>:

          > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
          >
          > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and hasn't
          > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code between
          > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to code share
          > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big release. VSS
          > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs in our
          > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have any of the
          > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In the early
          > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would never go
          > anywhere near it again.
          >
          > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
          >
          > Steven Burrows
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
          > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
          > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>] On
          > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
          > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
          > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?
          >
          > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a version
          > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built in MVCS
          > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was simple
          > and fast.
          >
          > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but it is
          > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
          > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
          > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first setting
          > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
          >
          > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that it may be
          > even slower than CVS.
          >
          > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Andy
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Rob Westland
          Hi, MSE says that they are going to support subversion in V10.1 SP5 Gtz, Rob
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
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            Hi,

            MSE says that they are going to support subversion in V10.1 SP5

            Gtz,
            Rob

            ajreynolds1 wrote:
            >
            > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a version
            > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built in MVCS
            > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was simple
            > and fast.
            >
            > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but it is
            > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
            > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
            > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first setting
            > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
            >
            > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that it may be
            > even slower than CVS.
            >
            > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Andy
            >
            >
          • Jaco van Tonder
            About damn time. Thanks for this very useful information Rob. I am overjoyed hearing this. J Anyone have any roadmap for the release of SP5? ... -- Jaco van
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
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              About damn time.

              Thanks for this very useful information Rob. I am overjoyed hearing this. J

              Anyone have any roadmap for the release of SP5?


              ---Jaco

              --
              Jaco van Tonder
              Software Developer
              Teba Bank Ltd

              Direct: +27 11 518 5166 :: Mobile: +27 83 417 5424 :: Fax: 086 641 5925
              Mail: jacovt@...<mailto:jacovt@...> :: Web: http://www.tebabank.co.za/
              From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:magicu-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Westland
              Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 1:08 PM
              To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?


              Hi,

              MSE says that they are going to support subversion in V10.1 SP5

              Gtz,
              Rob

              ajreynolds1 wrote:
              >
              > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a version
              > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built in MVCS
              > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was simple
              > and fast.
              >
              > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but it is
              > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
              > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
              > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first setting
              > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
              >
              > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that it may be
              > even slower than CVS.
              >
              > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Andy
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Omar Lamin
              Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-). About Getting the latest version . What is that exactly? Isn t it something that one would like (or
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
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                Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).

                About "Getting the latest version".

                What is that exactly?
                Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know that this
                (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except for what
                is being checked out and in development by another developer?

                Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often ("RE-synchronising")
                automatically for us?

                If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have to think
                and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait minutes
                in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are working on
                the latest?

                Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the coffee
                machine all the time saying things like.
                "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have sence of
                what is it you are working on and might as well it be the latest and
                this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time to get
                it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."

                I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.

                Omar,

                "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                >
                > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being forced
                into it,
                > but it is really nice'
                >
                > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster
                program it
                > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import initially was
                > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you run 'Get
                > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything else is
                > very fast.
                >
                > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just about being
                > forced to buy it).
                >
                > Rosie
                >
                > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@...>:
                >
                > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                > >
                > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and hasn't
                > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code between
                > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to code share
                > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big release. VSS
                > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs in our
                > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have any of the
                > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In the early
                > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would never go
                > > anywhere near it again.
                > >
                > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                > >
                > > Steven Burrows
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > >
                > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?
                > >
                > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a version
                > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built in MVCS
                > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was simple
                > > and fast.
                > >
                > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but it is
                > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
                > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
                > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first setting
                > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                > >
                > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that it may be
                > > even slower than CVS.
                > >
                > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > Andy
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Jaco van Tonder
                Omar, From my experience, if you check out a program, you automatically get the latest version, but you do have the option to work on an older version of the
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
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                  Omar,

                  From my experience, if you check out a program, you automatically get the latest version, but you do have the option to work on an older version of the objects as well, which is ideal of you want to do things like branching etc.

                  BUT, that might pose a bit risky if you think about how eDeveloper works, and the interaction between repositories.

                  ---Jaco

                  --
                  Jaco van Tonder
                  Software Developer
                  Teba Bank Ltd

                  Direct: +27 11 518 5166 :: Mobile: +27 83 417 5424 :: Fax: 086 641 5925
                  Mail: jacovt@...<mailto:jacovt@...> :: Web: http://www.tebabank.co.za/
                  From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:magicu-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Omar Lamin
                  Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 3:23 PM
                  To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?


                  Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).

                  About "Getting the latest version".

                  What is that exactly?
                  Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know that this
                  (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except for what
                  is being checked out and in development by another developer?

                  Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often ("RE-synchronising")
                  automatically for us?

                  If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have to think
                  and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait minutes
                  in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are working on
                  the latest?

                  Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the coffee
                  machine all the time saying things like.
                  "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have sence of
                  what is it you are working on and might as well it be the latest and
                  this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time to get
                  it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."

                  I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                  correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.

                  Omar,

                  "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                  --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com<mailto:magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being forced
                  into it,
                  > but it is really nice'
                  >
                  > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster
                  program it
                  > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import initially was
                  > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you run 'Get
                  > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything else is
                  > very fast.
                  >
                  > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just about being
                  > forced to buy it).
                  >
                  > Rosie
                  >
                  > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@...>:
                  >
                  > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                  > >
                  > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and hasn't
                  > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code between
                  > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to code share
                  > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big release. VSS
                  > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs in our
                  > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have any of the
                  > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In the early
                  > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would never go
                  > > anywhere near it again.
                  > >
                  > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                  > >
                  > > Steven Burrows
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > >
                  > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com<mailto:magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                  > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com<mailto:magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                  > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                  > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                  > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com<mailto:magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?
                  > >
                  > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a version
                  > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built in MVCS
                  > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was simple
                  > > and fast.
                  > >
                  > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but it is
                  > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
                  > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
                  > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first setting
                  > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                  > >
                  > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that it may be
                  > > even slower than CVS.
                  > >
                  > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > Andy
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Rosie Coller
                  This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to it. It was something I was worried about before I started using it but it is actually not a
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to it. It was
                    something I was worried about before I started using it but it is actually
                    not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.

                    When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you have the
                    latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and missing
                    someone elses changes.

                    BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This can either be
                    local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions here have delt
                    with which is best for the 'working directory').
                    This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you try to book
                    a program out to work on it).
                    You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object (each object is
                    one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.

                    This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an earler
                    version of a program to look at what it used to be like.

                    It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each do a project
                    wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again if there
                    is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working one.

                    But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our collegues latest
                    changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they hadn't booked
                    their changes back yet.

                    You just need to make sure you have the latest project version before saving
                    the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a collegues work
                    which we do one week out of four).

                    Rosie

                    2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:

                    > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                    >
                    > About "Getting the latest version".
                    >
                    > What is that exactly?
                    > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know that this
                    > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except for what
                    > is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                    >
                    > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often ("RE-synchronising")
                    > automatically for us?
                    >
                    > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have to think
                    > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait minutes
                    > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are working on
                    > the latest?
                    >
                    > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the coffee
                    > machine all the time saying things like.
                    > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have sence of
                    > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the latest and
                    > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time to get
                    > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                    >
                    > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                    > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                    >
                    > Omar,
                    >
                    > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                    > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                    > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being forced
                    > into it,
                    > > but it is really nice'
                    > >
                    > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster
                    > program it
                    > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import initially was
                    > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you run 'Get
                    > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything else is
                    > > very fast.
                    > >
                    > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just about being
                    > > forced to buy it).
                    > >
                    > > Rosie
                    > >
                    > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@...>:
                    > >
                    > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                    > > >
                    > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and hasn't
                    > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code between
                    > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to code share
                    > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big release. VSS
                    > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs in our
                    > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have any of the
                    > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In the early
                    > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would never go
                    > > > anywhere near it again.
                    > > >
                    > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                    > > >
                    > > > Steven Burrows
                    > > >
                    > > > ________________________________
                    > > >
                    > > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                    > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                    > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                    > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                    > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                    > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                    > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                    > 40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?
                    > > >
                    > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a version
                    > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built in MVCS
                    > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was simple
                    > > > and fast.
                    > > >
                    > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but it is
                    > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
                    > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
                    > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first setting
                    > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                    > > >
                    > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that it may be
                    > > > even slower than CVS.
                    > > >
                    > > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks,
                    > > > Andy
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Omar Lamin
                    Hi Rosie, In my Naive understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual local copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together with the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Rosie,

                      In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual local
                      copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together with
                      the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is not
                      checked out by this particular developer or others.

                      No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure everything is
                      checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).

                      Omar,
                      "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the easiest
                      thing to get used to."
                      --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to
                      it. It was
                      > something I was worried about before I started using it but it is
                      actually
                      > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                      >
                      > When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you
                      have the
                      > latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and missing
                      > someone elses changes.
                      >
                      > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This can
                      either be
                      > local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions here
                      have delt
                      > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                      > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you try
                      to book
                      > a program out to work on it).
                      > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object (each
                      object is
                      > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                      >
                      > This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an earler
                      > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                      >
                      > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each do a
                      project
                      > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again if
                      there
                      > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working one.
                      >
                      > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our collegues
                      latest
                      > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                      hadn't booked
                      > their changes back yet.
                      >
                      > You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                      before saving
                      > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a collegues work
                      > which we do one week out of four).
                      >
                      > Rosie
                      >
                      > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                      >
                      > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                      > >
                      > > About "Getting the latest version".
                      > >
                      > > What is that exactly?
                      > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know that this
                      > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except for what
                      > > is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                      > >
                      > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often ("RE-synchronising")
                      > > automatically for us?
                      > >
                      > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have to think
                      > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait minutes
                      > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are working on
                      > > the latest?
                      > >
                      > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the coffee
                      > > machine all the time saying things like.
                      > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have sence of
                      > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the latest and
                      > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time to get
                      > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                      > >
                      > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                      > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                      > >
                      > > Omar,
                      > >
                      > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                      > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                      > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being forced
                      > > into it,
                      > > > but it is really nice'
                      > > >
                      > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster
                      > > program it
                      > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                      initially was
                      > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you
                      run 'Get
                      > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything
                      else is
                      > > > very fast.
                      > > >
                      > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just
                      about being
                      > > > forced to buy it).
                      > > >
                      > > > Rosie
                      > > >
                      > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                      > > >
                      > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and
                      hasn't
                      > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code
                      between
                      > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to
                      code share
                      > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big release. VSS
                      > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs in our
                      > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have
                      any of the
                      > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In
                      the early
                      > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would
                      never go
                      > > > > anywhere near it again.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Steven Burrows
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ________________________________
                      > > > >
                      > > > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                      <magicu-l%
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                      > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                      > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                      > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                      > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                      <magicu-l%
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a
                      version
                      > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built
                      in MVCS
                      > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was
                      simple
                      > > > > and fast.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but
                      it is
                      > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
                      > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
                      > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first
                      setting
                      > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that
                      it may be
                      > > > > even slower than CVS.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks,
                      > > > > Andy
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Rosie Coller
                      But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though they have finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with MVCS. (One of my
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though they have
                        finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with MVCS. (One
                        of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week unless one of us
                        asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).

                        You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest version once a
                        day and most of the time we are all working on different projects so not
                        seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.

                        Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project. But a week and a
                        bit into that project we have still not really had a problem. Once when I
                        did a cross reference a program he had already changed and removed the file
                        I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It would be
                        theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross reference if a collegue
                        had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem yet and once
                        again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other programmer
                        had not booked their work back yet.

                        Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your changes because
                        you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used to get that with
                        the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any worse. We just
                        ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we have all the bits
                        we need to run the program.

                        Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the ecf will always
                        have got the latest version.

                        I WAS worried about this situation before we started working with it. None
                        of my fears relating to it have been realised.

                        Rosie

                        Rosie

                        2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:

                        > Hi Rosie,
                        >
                        > In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual local
                        > copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together with
                        > the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is not
                        > checked out by this particular developer or others.
                        >
                        > No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure everything is
                        > checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                        >
                        > Omar,
                        > "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the easiest
                        > thing to get used to."
                        > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                        > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to
                        > it. It was
                        > > something I was worried about before I started using it but it is
                        > actually
                        > > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                        > >
                        > > When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you
                        > have the
                        > > latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and missing
                        > > someone elses changes.
                        > >
                        > > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This can
                        > either be
                        > > local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions here
                        > have delt
                        > > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                        > > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you try
                        > to book
                        > > a program out to work on it).
                        > > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object (each
                        > object is
                        > > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                        > >
                        > > This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an earler
                        > > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                        > >
                        > > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each do a
                        > project
                        > > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again if
                        > there
                        > > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working one.
                        > >
                        > > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our collegues
                        > latest
                        > > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                        > hadn't booked
                        > > their changes back yet.
                        > >
                        > > You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                        > before saving
                        > > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a collegues work
                        > > which we do one week out of four).
                        > >
                        > > Rosie
                        > >
                        > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                        > >
                        > > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                        > > >
                        > > > About "Getting the latest version".
                        > > >
                        > > > What is that exactly?
                        > > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know that this
                        > > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except for what
                        > > > is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                        > > >
                        > > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often ("RE-synchronising")
                        > > > automatically for us?
                        > > >
                        > > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have to think
                        > > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait minutes
                        > > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are working on
                        > > > the latest?
                        > > >
                        > > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the coffee
                        > > > machine all the time saying things like.
                        > > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have sence of
                        > > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the latest and
                        > > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time to get
                        > > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                        > > >
                        > > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                        > > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                        > > >
                        > > > Omar,
                        > > >
                        > > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                        > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                        > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                        >
                        > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being forced
                        > > > into it,
                        > > > > but it is really nice'
                        > > > >
                        > > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster
                        > > > program it
                        > > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                        > initially was
                        > > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you
                        > run 'Get
                        > > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything
                        > else is
                        > > > > very fast.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just
                        > about being
                        > > > > forced to buy it).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Rosie
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and
                        > hasn't
                        > > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code
                        > between
                        > > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to
                        > code share
                        > > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big release. VSS
                        > > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs in our
                        > > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have
                        > any of the
                        > > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In
                        > the early
                        > > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would
                        > never go
                        > > > > > anywhere near it again.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Steven Burrows
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ________________________________
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                        > 40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <magicu-l%
                        > > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                        > > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                        > 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                        >
                        > > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                        > > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                        > > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                        > > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                        > 40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <magicu-l%
                        > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a
                        > version
                        > > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built
                        > in MVCS
                        > > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was
                        > simple
                        > > > > > and fast.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but
                        > it is
                        > > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
                        > > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
                        > > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first
                        > setting
                        > > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that
                        > it may be
                        > > > > > even slower than CVS.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > > Andy
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Keith Canniff
                        Rosie, Interesting. The one thing that I always liked about the MVCS checkout process was that I DIDN T see the changes someone else was doing. A half finished
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Rosie,



                          Interesting. The one thing that I always liked about the MVCS checkout
                          process was that I DIDN'T see the changes someone else was doing. A half
                          finished program can cause chaos with an application. Therefore my
                          programmers:



                          Checked out the programs necessary for the modification they needed

                          Tested each program (unit test) and all connected processes to the programs
                          modified (string test)

                          Once they all worked, they would then check them back in.

                          Any model or table change required approval by a single person (usually me)
                          to make sure it wouldn't adversely impact the rest of the system, and to
                          make sure that if this table was deployed at client site(s) that the
                          appropriate conversion program(s) were written to take care of it (since F8
                          in the table repository was not acceptable at a client's site).



                          We usually had 2-5 programmers working on an application and MVCS was never
                          a problem. The occasional "re-sync" message and few second delay was no big
                          deal.



                          Until we can get back to something that's at least equivalent to MVCS
                          (excluding history) in automation and speed (and available for all releases
                          of eDeveloper), I feel that VC has taken a step backwards for the majority
                          of the developers out there (at least for me it has).



                          IMHO



                          Keith



                          From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:magicu-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of Rosie Coller
                          Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:31 AM
                          To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?



                          But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though they have
                          finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with MVCS. (One
                          of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week unless one of us
                          asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).

                          You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest version once a
                          day and most of the time we are all working on different projects so not
                          seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.

                          Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project. But a week and a
                          bit into that project we have still not really had a problem. Once when I
                          did a cross reference a program he had already changed and removed the file
                          I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It would be
                          theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross reference if a collegue
                          had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem yet and once
                          again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other programmer
                          had not booked their work back yet.

                          Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your changes because
                          you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used to get that with
                          the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any worse. We just
                          ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we have all the bits
                          we need to run the program.

                          Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the ecf will always
                          have got the latest version.

                          I WAS worried about this situation before we started working with it. None
                          of my fears relating to it have been realised.

                          Rosie

                          Rosie

                          2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...
                          <mailto:omar.lamin%40informaplus.com> >:

                          > Hi Rosie,
                          >
                          > In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual local
                          > copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together with
                          > the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is not
                          > checked out by this particular developer or others.
                          >
                          > No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure everything is
                          > checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                          >
                          > Omar,
                          > "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the easiest
                          > thing to get used to."
                          > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                          <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                          > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to
                          > it. It was
                          > > something I was worried about before I started using it but it is
                          > actually
                          > > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                          > >
                          > > When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you
                          > have the
                          > > latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and missing
                          > > someone elses changes.
                          > >
                          > > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This can
                          > either be
                          > > local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions here
                          > have delt
                          > > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                          > > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you try
                          > to book
                          > > a program out to work on it).
                          > > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object (each
                          > object is
                          > > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                          > >
                          > > This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an earler
                          > > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                          > >
                          > > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each do a
                          > project
                          > > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again if
                          > there
                          > > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working one.
                          > >
                          > > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our collegues
                          > latest
                          > > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                          > hadn't booked
                          > > their changes back yet.
                          > >
                          > > You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                          > before saving
                          > > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a collegues work
                          > > which we do one week out of four).
                          > >
                          > > Rosie
                          > >
                          > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                          > >
                          > > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                          > > >
                          > > > About "Getting the latest version".
                          > > >
                          > > > What is that exactly?
                          > > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know that this
                          > > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except for what
                          > > > is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                          > > >
                          > > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often ("RE-synchronising")
                          > > > automatically for us?
                          > > >
                          > > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have to think
                          > > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait minutes
                          > > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are working on
                          > > > the latest?
                          > > >
                          > > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the coffee
                          > > > machine all the time saying things like.
                          > > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have sence of
                          > > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the latest and
                          > > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time to get
                          > > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                          > > >
                          > > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                          > > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                          > > >
                          > > > Omar,
                          > > >
                          > > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                          > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                          <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                          > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                          >
                          > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being forced
                          > > > into it,
                          > > > > but it is really nice'
                          > > > >
                          > > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster
                          > > > program it
                          > > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                          > initially was
                          > > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you
                          > run 'Get
                          > > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything
                          > else is
                          > > > > very fast.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just
                          > about being
                          > > > > forced to buy it).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Rosie
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and
                          > hasn't
                          > > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code
                          > between
                          > > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to
                          > code share
                          > > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big release. VSS
                          > > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs in our
                          > > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have
                          > any of the
                          > > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In
                          > the early
                          > > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would
                          > never go
                          > > > > > anywhere near it again.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Steven Burrows
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ________________________________
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                          <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                          > 40yahoogroups.com>
                          > <magicu-l%
                          > > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                          > > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                          <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                          > 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                          >
                          > > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                          > > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                          > > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                          > > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                          <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                          > 40yahoogroups.com>
                          > <magicu-l%
                          > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a
                          > version
                          > > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built
                          > in MVCS
                          > > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was
                          > simple
                          > > > > > and fast.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but
                          > it is
                          > > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most of
                          > > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out a
                          > > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first
                          > setting
                          > > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that
                          > it may be
                          > > > > > even slower than CVS.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thanks,
                          > > > > > Andy
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Rosie Coller
                          I feel that VC has taken a step backwards for the majority of the developers out there The big problem I see is that for those who don t want to spend the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            "I feel that VC has taken a step backwards for the majority of the
                            developers out there"

                            The big problem I see is that for those who don't want to spend the money on
                            the enterprise eddition AND on VSS or something like it then you are
                            absolutly right.

                            We argued this long and hard with MSE. But using VSS was still just about
                            the only real choice.

                            Rosie
                            2008/6/2 Keith Canniff <kcanniff@...>:

                            > Rosie,
                            >
                            > Interesting. The one thing that I always liked about the MVCS checkout
                            > process was that I DIDN'T see the changes someone else was doing. A half
                            > finished program can cause chaos with an application. Therefore my
                            > programmers:
                            >
                            > Checked out the programs necessary for the modification they needed
                            >
                            > Tested each program (unit test) and all connected processes to the programs
                            > modified (string test)
                            >
                            > Once they all worked, they would then check them back in.
                            >
                            > Any model or table change required approval by a single person (usually me)
                            > to make sure it wouldn't adversely impact the rest of the system, and to
                            > make sure that if this table was deployed at client site(s) that the
                            > appropriate conversion program(s) were written to take care of it (since F8
                            > in the table repository was not acceptable at a client's site).
                            >
                            > We usually had 2-5 programmers working on an application and MVCS was never
                            > a problem. The occasional "re-sync" message and few second delay was no big
                            > deal.
                            >
                            > Until we can get back to something that's at least equivalent to MVCS
                            > (excluding history) in automation and speed (and available for all releases
                            > of eDeveloper), I feel that VC has taken a step backwards for the majority
                            > of the developers out there (at least for me it has).
                            >
                            > IMHO
                            >
                            > Keith
                            >
                            > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                            > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                            > Of Rosie Coller
                            > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:31 AM
                            > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?
                            >
                            >
                            > But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though they have
                            > finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with MVCS. (One
                            > of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week unless one of us
                            > asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).
                            >
                            > You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest version once a
                            > day and most of the time we are all working on different projects so not
                            > seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.
                            >
                            > Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project. But a week and
                            > a
                            > bit into that project we have still not really had a problem. Once when I
                            > did a cross reference a program he had already changed and removed the file
                            > I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It would be
                            > theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross reference if a collegue
                            > had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem yet and once
                            > again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other programmer
                            > had not booked their work back yet.
                            >
                            > Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your changes because
                            > you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used to get that with
                            > the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any worse. We just
                            > ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we have all the
                            > bits
                            > we need to run the program.
                            >
                            > Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the ecf will always
                            > have got the latest version.
                            >
                            > I WAS worried about this situation before we started working with it. None
                            > of my fears relating to it have been realised.
                            >
                            > Rosie
                            >
                            > Rosie
                            >
                            > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...<omar.lamin%40informaplus.com>
                            > <mailto:omar.lamin%40informaplus.com <omar.lamin%2540informaplus.com>> >:
                            >
                            > > Hi Rosie,
                            > >
                            > > In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual local
                            > > copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together with
                            > > the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is not
                            > > checked out by this particular developer or others.
                            > >
                            > > No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure everything is
                            > > checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                            > >
                            > > Omar,
                            > > "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the easiest
                            > > thing to get used to."
                            > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
                            > magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                            > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                            >
                            > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to
                            > > it. It was
                            > > > something I was worried about before I started using it but it is
                            > > actually
                            > > > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                            > > >
                            > > > When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you
                            > > have the
                            > > > latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and missing
                            > > > someone elses changes.
                            > > >
                            > > > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This can
                            > > either be
                            > > > local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions here
                            > > have delt
                            > > > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                            > > > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you try
                            > > to book
                            > > > a program out to work on it).
                            > > > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object (each
                            > > object is
                            > > > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                            > > >
                            > > > This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an earler
                            > > > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                            > > >
                            > > > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each do a
                            > > project
                            > > > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again if
                            > > there
                            > > > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working one.
                            > > >
                            > > > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our collegues
                            > > latest
                            > > > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                            > > hadn't booked
                            > > > their changes back yet.
                            > > >
                            > > > You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                            > > before saving
                            > > > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a collegues work
                            > > > which we do one week out of four).
                            > > >
                            > > > Rosie
                            > > >
                            > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                            > > >
                            > > > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                            > > > >
                            > > > > About "Getting the latest version".
                            > > > >
                            > > > > What is that exactly?
                            > > > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know that this
                            > > > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except for what
                            > > > > is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often ("RE-synchronising")
                            > > > > automatically for us?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have to
                            > think
                            > > > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait
                            > minutes
                            > > > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are working on
                            > > > > the latest?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the coffee
                            > > > > machine all the time saying things like.
                            > > > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have sence of
                            > > > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the latest and
                            > > > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time to get
                            > > > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                            > > > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Omar,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                            > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                            > magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                            > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                            >
                            > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                            > >
                            > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being forced
                            > > > > into it,
                            > > > > > but it is really nice'
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster
                            > > > > program it
                            > > > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                            > > initially was
                            > > > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you
                            > > run 'Get
                            > > > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything
                            > > else is
                            > > > > > very fast.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just
                            > > about being
                            > > > > > forced to buy it).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Rosie
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and
                            > > hasn't
                            > > > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code
                            > > between
                            > > > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to
                            > > code share
                            > > > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big release. VSS
                            > > > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs in our
                            > > > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have
                            > > any of the
                            > > > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In
                            > > the early
                            > > > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would
                            > > never go
                            > > > > > > anywhere near it again.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Steven Burrows
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > ________________________________
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                            > magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                            > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                            > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > <magicu-l%
                            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                            > > > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
                            > magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                            > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                            > > 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                            > >
                            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                            > > > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                            > > > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                            > > > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                            > magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                            > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                            >
                            > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > <magicu-l%
                            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use with V10?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a
                            > > version
                            > > > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built
                            > > in MVCS
                            > > > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was
                            > > simple
                            > > > > > > and fast.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but
                            > > it is
                            > > > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs (most
                            > of
                            > > > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to check out
                            > a
                            > > > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first
                            > > setting
                            > > > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that
                            > > it may be
                            > > > > > > even slower than CVS.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Thanks,
                            > > > > > > Andy
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Omar Lamin
                            Hi Rosie, The part about not seeing what another still have checked out is just fair and to be expected and when using TD, we always made a point for people to
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Rosie,

                              The part about not seeing what another still have checked out is just
                              fair and to be expected and when using TD, we always made a point for
                              people to check back their stuff when they were finished. If someone
                              wants to hold it longer for some reason of his, fine, but when it is
                              over, please give it back to the general public.

                              My point is that now that someone gave it back. One or many who do not
                              get the latest (manually which could take several minutes if you want
                              to make sure you have it all) still don't have it. To my understanding
                              this does not have to be this way and offers potential for confusion
                              which makes it wrong.

                              Worst than that it is not, however correct it isn't either.

                              Using it, I will most likely be forced to one day, but understanding
                              the above, I fail to see that I will get to like it.

                              BTW, I do also understand that this is OT to MSE to some degree. They
                              just inherit the third party product weakness in this case. I won't
                              elaborate on the "to some degree". I understand this as an already
                              lost battle.

                              Omar,
                              --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though
                              they have
                              > finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with
                              MVCS. (One
                              > of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week unless one
                              of us
                              > asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).
                              >
                              > You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest version
                              once a
                              > day and most of the time we are all working on different projects so not
                              > seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.
                              >
                              > Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project. But a
                              week and a
                              > bit into that project we have still not really had a problem. Once
                              when I
                              > did a cross reference a program he had already changed and removed
                              the file
                              > I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It would be
                              > theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross reference if a
                              collegue
                              > had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem yet and once
                              > again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other
                              programmer
                              > had not booked their work back yet.
                              >
                              > Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your changes
                              because
                              > you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used to get
                              that with
                              > the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any worse.
                              We just
                              > ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we have all
                              the bits
                              > we need to run the program.
                              >
                              > Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the ecf will
                              always
                              > have got the latest version.
                              >
                              > I WAS worried about this situation before we started working with
                              it. None
                              > of my fears relating to it have been realised.
                              >
                              > Rosie
                              >
                              > Rosie
                              >
                              > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                              >
                              > > Hi Rosie,
                              > >
                              > > In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual local
                              > > copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together with
                              > > the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is not
                              > > checked out by this particular developer or others.
                              > >
                              > > No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure everything is
                              > > checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                              > >
                              > > Omar,
                              > > "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the easiest
                              > > thing to get used to."
                              > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                              > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to
                              > > it. It was
                              > > > something I was worried about before I started using it but it is
                              > > actually
                              > > > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                              > > >
                              > > > When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you
                              > > have the
                              > > > latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and
                              missing
                              > > > someone elses changes.
                              > > >
                              > > > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This can
                              > > either be
                              > > > local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions here
                              > > have delt
                              > > > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                              > > > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you try
                              > > to book
                              > > > a program out to work on it).
                              > > > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object (each
                              > > object is
                              > > > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                              > > >
                              > > > This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an
                              earler
                              > > > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                              > > >
                              > > > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each do a
                              > > project
                              > > > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again if
                              > > there
                              > > > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working one.
                              > > >
                              > > > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our collegues
                              > > latest
                              > > > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                              > > hadn't booked
                              > > > their changes back yet.
                              > > >
                              > > > You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                              > > before saving
                              > > > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a
                              collegues work
                              > > > which we do one week out of four).
                              > > >
                              > > > Rosie
                              > > >
                              > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@>:
                              > > >
                              > > > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > About "Getting the latest version".
                              > > > >
                              > > > > What is that exactly?
                              > > > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know
                              that this
                              > > > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except
                              for what
                              > > > > is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often
                              ("RE-synchronising")
                              > > > > automatically for us?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have
                              to think
                              > > > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait
                              minutes
                              > > > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are
                              working on
                              > > > > the latest?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the
                              coffee
                              > > > > machine all the time saying things like.
                              > > > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have
                              sence of
                              > > > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the
                              latest and
                              > > > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time
                              to get
                              > > > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                              > > > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Omar,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                              > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                              <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                              > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                              > >
                              > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being
                              forced
                              > > > > into it,
                              > > > > > but it is really nice'
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster
                              > > > > program it
                              > > > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                              > > initially was
                              > > > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you
                              > > run 'Get
                              > > > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything
                              > > else is
                              > > > > > very fast.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just
                              > > about being
                              > > > > > forced to buy it).
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Rosie
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and
                              > > hasn't
                              > > > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code
                              > > between
                              > > > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to
                              > > code share
                              > > > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big
                              release. VSS
                              > > > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs
                              in our
                              > > > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have
                              > > any of the
                              > > > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In
                              > > the early
                              > > > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would
                              > > never go
                              > > > > > > anywhere near it again.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Steven Burrows
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > ________________________________
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                              <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                              > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > <magicu-l%
                              > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                              > > > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                              <magicu-l%
                              > > 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                              > >
                              > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                              > > > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                              > > > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                              > > > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                              <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                              > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > <magicu-l%
                              > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use
                              with V10?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a
                              > > version
                              > > > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built
                              > > in MVCS
                              > > > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was
                              > > simple
                              > > > > > > and fast.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but
                              > > it is
                              > > > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs
                              (most of
                              > > > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to
                              check out a
                              > > > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first
                              > > setting
                              > > > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that
                              > > it may be
                              > > > > > > even slower than CVS.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Thanks,
                              > > > > > > Andy
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Rosie Coller
                              All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern. Now I m using it I m happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS. But as always... your
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern. Now
                                I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.

                                But as always... your millage may vary.

                                Rosie

                                2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:

                                > Hi Rosie,
                                >
                                > The part about not seeing what another still have checked out is just
                                > fair and to be expected and when using TD, we always made a point for
                                > people to check back their stuff when they were finished. If someone
                                > wants to hold it longer for some reason of his, fine, but when it is
                                > over, please give it back to the general public.
                                >
                                > My point is that now that someone gave it back. One or many who do not
                                > get the latest (manually which could take several minutes if you want
                                > to make sure you have it all) still don't have it. To my understanding
                                > this does not have to be this way and offers potential for confusion
                                > which makes it wrong.
                                >
                                > Worst than that it is not, however correct it isn't either.
                                >
                                > Using it, I will most likely be forced to one day, but understanding
                                > the above, I fail to see that I will get to like it.
                                >
                                > BTW, I do also understand that this is OT to MSE to some degree. They
                                > just inherit the third party product weakness in this case. I won't
                                > elaborate on the "to some degree". I understand this as an already
                                > lost battle.
                                >
                                > Omar,
                                > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though
                                > they have
                                > > finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with
                                > MVCS. (One
                                > > of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week unless one
                                > of us
                                > > asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).
                                > >
                                > > You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest version
                                > once a
                                > > day and most of the time we are all working on different projects so not
                                > > seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.
                                > >
                                > > Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project. But a
                                > week and a
                                > > bit into that project we have still not really had a problem. Once
                                > when I
                                > > did a cross reference a program he had already changed and removed
                                > the file
                                > > I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It would be
                                > > theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross reference if a
                                > collegue
                                > > had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem yet and once
                                > > again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other
                                > programmer
                                > > had not booked their work back yet.
                                > >
                                > > Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your changes
                                > because
                                > > you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used to get
                                > that with
                                > > the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any worse.
                                > We just
                                > > ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we have all
                                > the bits
                                > > we need to run the program.
                                > >
                                > > Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the ecf will
                                > always
                                > > have got the latest version.
                                > >
                                > > I WAS worried about this situation before we started working with
                                > it. None
                                > > of my fears relating to it have been realised.
                                > >
                                > > Rosie
                                > >
                                > > Rosie
                                > >
                                > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                                > >
                                > > > Hi Rosie,
                                > > >
                                > > > In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual local
                                > > > copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together with
                                > > > the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is not
                                > > > checked out by this particular developer or others.
                                > > >
                                > > > No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure everything is
                                > > > checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                                > > >
                                > > > Omar,
                                > > > "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the easiest
                                > > > thing to get used to."
                                > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to
                                > > > it. It was
                                > > > > something I was worried about before I started using it but it is
                                > > > actually
                                > > > > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you
                                > > > have the
                                > > > > latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and
                                > missing
                                > > > > someone elses changes.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This can
                                > > > either be
                                > > > > local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions here
                                > > > have delt
                                > > > > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                                > > > > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you try
                                > > > to book
                                > > > > a program out to work on it).
                                > > > > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object (each
                                > > > object is
                                > > > > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an
                                > earler
                                > > > > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each do a
                                > > > project
                                > > > > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again if
                                > > > there
                                > > > > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working one.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our collegues
                                > > > latest
                                > > > > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                                > > > hadn't booked
                                > > > > their changes back yet.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                                > > > before saving
                                > > > > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a
                                > collegues work
                                > > > > which we do one week out of four).
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Rosie
                                > > > >
                                > > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@>:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > About "Getting the latest version".
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > What is that exactly?
                                > > > > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know
                                > that this
                                > > > > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except
                                > for what
                                > > > > > is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often
                                > ("RE-synchronising")
                                > > > > > automatically for us?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have
                                > to think
                                > > > > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait
                                > minutes
                                > > > > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are
                                > working on
                                > > > > > the latest?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the
                                > coffee
                                > > > > > machine all the time saying things like.
                                > > > > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have
                                > sence of
                                > > > > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the
                                > latest and
                                > > > > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time
                                > to get
                                > > > > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                                > > > > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Omar,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                                > > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                >
                                > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                > > >
                                > > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being
                                > forced
                                > > > > > into it,
                                > > > > > > but it is really nice'
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one monster
                                > > > > > program it
                                > > > > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                                > > > initially was
                                > > > > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you
                                > > > run 'Get
                                > > > > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but everything
                                > > > else is
                                > > > > > > very fast.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just
                                > > > about being
                                > > > > > > forced to buy it).
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Rosie
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice, and
                                > > > hasn't
                                > > > > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code
                                > > > between
                                > > > > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to
                                > > > code share
                                > > > > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big
                                > release. VSS
                                > > > > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs
                                > in our
                                > > > > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have
                                > > > any of the
                                > > > > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In
                                > > > the early
                                > > > > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I would
                                > > > never go
                                > > > > > > > anywhere near it again.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Steven Burrows
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > ________________________________
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > <magicu-l%
                                > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                > > > > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <magicu-l%
                                > > > 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                                > > >
                                > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                > > > > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                                > > > > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                                > > > > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > <magicu-l%
                                > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use
                                > with V10?
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a
                                > > > version
                                > > > > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the built
                                > > > in MVCS
                                > > > > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It was
                                > > > simple
                                > > > > > > > and fast.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic, but
                                > > > it is
                                > > > > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs
                                > (most of
                                > > > > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to
                                > check out a
                                > > > > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were first
                                > > > setting
                                > > > > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that
                                > > > it may be
                                > > > > > > > even slower than CVS.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                > > > > > > > Andy
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • sherman levine
                                Don t you guys say kilometrage , or something like that? Sherm ... From: Rosie Coller To: Sent:
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Don't you guys say "kilometrage", or something like that?
                                  Sherm

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...>
                                  To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:04 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?


                                  > All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern. Now
                                  > I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.
                                  >
                                  > But as always... your millage may vary.
                                  >
                                  > Rosie
                                  >
                                  > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                                  >
                                  > > Hi Rosie,
                                  > >
                                  > > The part about not seeing what another still have checked out is just
                                  > > fair and to be expected and when using TD, we always made a point for
                                  > > people to check back their stuff when they were finished. If someone
                                  > > wants to hold it longer for some reason of his, fine, but when it is
                                  > > over, please give it back to the general public.
                                  > >
                                  > > My point is that now that someone gave it back. One or many who do not
                                  > > get the latest (manually which could take several minutes if you want
                                  > > to make sure you have it all) still don't have it. To my understanding
                                  > > this does not have to be this way and offers potential for confusion
                                  > > which makes it wrong.
                                  > >
                                  > > Worst than that it is not, however correct it isn't either.
                                  > >
                                  > > Using it, I will most likely be forced to one day, but understanding
                                  > > the above, I fail to see that I will get to like it.
                                  > >
                                  > > BTW, I do also understand that this is OT to MSE to some degree. They
                                  > > just inherit the third party product weakness in this case. I won't
                                  > > elaborate on the "to some degree". I understand this as an already
                                  > > lost battle.
                                  > >
                                  > > Omar,
                                  > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                  > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though
                                  > > they have
                                  > > > finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with
                                  > > MVCS. (One
                                  > > > of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week unless one
                                  > > of us
                                  > > > asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest version
                                  > > once a
                                  > > > day and most of the time we are all working on different projects so
                                  not
                                  > > > seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project. But a
                                  > > week and a
                                  > > > bit into that project we have still not really had a problem. Once
                                  > > when I
                                  > > > did a cross reference a program he had already changed and removed
                                  > > the file
                                  > > > I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It would be
                                  > > > theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross reference if a
                                  > > collegue
                                  > > > had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem yet and
                                  once
                                  > > > again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other
                                  > > programmer
                                  > > > had not booked their work back yet.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your changes
                                  > > because
                                  > > > you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used to get
                                  > > that with
                                  > > > the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any worse.
                                  > > We just
                                  > > > ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we have all
                                  > > the bits
                                  > > > we need to run the program.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the ecf will
                                  > > always
                                  > > > have got the latest version.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I WAS worried about this situation before we started working with
                                  > > it. None
                                  > > > of my fears relating to it have been realised.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Rosie
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Rosie
                                  > > >
                                  > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > Hi Rosie,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual local
                                  > > > > copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together
                                  with
                                  > > > > the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is not
                                  > > > > checked out by this particular developer or others.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure everything
                                  is
                                  > > > > checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Omar,
                                  > > > > "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the
                                  easiest
                                  > > > > thing to get used to."
                                  > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                  <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                  > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                  > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to
                                  > > > > it. It was
                                  > > > > > something I was worried about before I started using it but it is
                                  > > > > actually
                                  > > > > > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you
                                  > > > > have the
                                  > > > > > latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and
                                  > > missing
                                  > > > > > someone elses changes.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This can
                                  > > > > either be
                                  > > > > > local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions here
                                  > > > > have delt
                                  > > > > > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                                  > > > > > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you
                                  try
                                  > > > > to book
                                  > > > > > a program out to work on it).
                                  > > > > > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object (each
                                  > > > > object is
                                  > > > > > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an
                                  > > earler
                                  > > > > > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each do
                                  a
                                  > > > > project
                                  > > > > > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again
                                  if
                                  > > > > there
                                  > > > > > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working
                                  one.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our
                                  collegues
                                  > > > > latest
                                  > > > > > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                                  > > > > hadn't booked
                                  > > > > > their changes back yet.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                                  > > > > before saving
                                  > > > > > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a
                                  > > collegues work
                                  > > > > > which we do one week out of four).
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Rosie
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@>:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > About "Getting the latest version".
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > What is that exactly?
                                  > > > > > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know
                                  > > that this
                                  > > > > > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except
                                  > > for what
                                  > > > > > > is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often
                                  > > ("RE-synchronising")
                                  > > > > > > automatically for us?
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have
                                  > > to think
                                  > > > > > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait
                                  > > minutes
                                  > > > > > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are
                                  > > working on
                                  > > > > > > the latest?
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the
                                  > > coffee
                                  > > > > > > machine all the time saying things like.
                                  > > > > > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have
                                  > > sence of
                                  > > > > > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the
                                  > > latest and
                                  > > > > > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time
                                  > > to get
                                  > > > > > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                                  > > > > > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Omar,
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                                  > > > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                  > >
                                  > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being
                                  > > forced
                                  > > > > > > into it,
                                  > > > > > > > but it is really nice'
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one
                                  monster
                                  > > > > > > program it
                                  > > > > > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                                  > > > > initially was
                                  > > > > > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you
                                  > > > > run 'Get
                                  > > > > > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but
                                  everything
                                  > > > > else is
                                  > > > > > > > very fast.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just
                                  > > > > about being
                                  > > > > > > > forced to buy it).
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Rosie
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice,
                                  and
                                  > > > > hasn't
                                  > > > > > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code
                                  > > > > between
                                  > > > > > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to
                                  > > > > code share
                                  > > > > > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big
                                  > > release. VSS
                                  > > > > > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs
                                  > > in our
                                  > > > > > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have
                                  > > > > any of the
                                  > > > > > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In
                                  > > > > the early
                                  > > > > > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I
                                  would
                                  > > > > never go
                                  > > > > > > > > anywhere near it again.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Steven Burrows
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > ________________________________
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                  > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > > <magicu-l%
                                  > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                  > > > > > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                  <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                  > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > <magicu-l%
                                  > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                  > > > > > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                                  > > > > > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                                  > > > > > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                  > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > > <magicu-l%
                                  > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > > > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use
                                  > > with V10?
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a
                                  > > > > version
                                  > > > > > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the
                                  built
                                  > > > > in MVCS
                                  > > > > > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It
                                  was
                                  > > > > simple
                                  > > > > > > > > and fast.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic,
                                  but
                                  > > > > it is
                                  > > > > > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs
                                  > > (most of
                                  > > > > > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to
                                  > > check out a
                                  > > > > > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were
                                  first
                                  > > > > setting
                                  > > > > > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that
                                  > > > > it may be
                                  > > > > > > > > even slower than CVS.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                  > > > > > > > > Andy
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Alan Brookes
                                  Yardage, footage or oldage Kilometrage is something they do in hospitals, I believe ... Best Regards Alan ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Yardage, footage or oldage

                                    "Kilometrage" is something they do in hospitals, I believe
                                    :-)



                                    Best Regards

                                    Alan


                                    sherman levine wrote:
                                    > Don't you guys say "kilometrage", or something like that?
                                    > Sherm
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...>
                                    > To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:04 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >> All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern. Now
                                    >> I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.
                                    >>
                                    >> But as always... your millage may vary.
                                    >>
                                    >> Rosie
                                    >>
                                    >> 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                                    >>
                                    >>> Hi Rosie,
                                    >>>
                                    >>> The part about not seeing what another still have checked out is just
                                    >>> fair and to be expected and when using TD, we always made a point for
                                    >>> people to check back their stuff when they were finished. If someone
                                    >>> wants to hold it longer for some reason of his, fine, but when it is
                                    >>> over, please give it back to the general public.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> My point is that now that someone gave it back. One or many who do not
                                    >>> get the latest (manually which could take several minutes if you want
                                    >>> to make sure you have it all) still don't have it. To my understanding
                                    >>> this does not have to be this way and offers potential for confusion
                                    >>> which makes it wrong.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Worst than that it is not, however correct it isn't either.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Using it, I will most likely be forced to one day, but understanding
                                    >>> the above, I fail to see that I will get to like it.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> BTW, I do also understand that this is OT to MSE to some degree. They
                                    >>> just inherit the third party product weakness in this case. I won't
                                    >>> elaborate on the "to some degree". I understand this as an already
                                    >>> lost battle.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Omar,
                                    >>> --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                    >>> Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                                    >>> > But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though
                                    >>> they have
                                    >>>> finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with
                                    >>> MVCS. (One
                                    >>>> of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week unless one
                                    >>> of us
                                    >>>> asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest version
                                    >>> once a
                                    >>>> day and most of the time we are all working on different projects so
                                    > not
                                    >>>> seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project. But a
                                    >>> week and a
                                    >>>> bit into that project we have still not really had a problem. Once
                                    >>> when I
                                    >>>> did a cross reference a program he had already changed and removed
                                    >>> the file
                                    >>>> I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It would be
                                    >>>> theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross reference if a
                                    >>> collegue
                                    >>>> had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem yet and
                                    > once
                                    >>>> again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other
                                    >>> programmer
                                    >>>> had not booked their work back yet.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your changes
                                    >>> because
                                    >>>> you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used to get
                                    >>> that with
                                    >>>> the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any worse.
                                    >>> We just
                                    >>>> ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we have all
                                    >>> the bits
                                    >>>> we need to run the program.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the ecf will
                                    >>> always
                                    >>>> have got the latest version.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> I WAS worried about this situation before we started working with
                                    >>> it. None
                                    >>>> of my fears relating to it have been realised.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Rosie
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Rosie
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>>> Hi Rosie,
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual local
                                    >>>>> copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together
                                    > with
                                    >>>>> the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is not
                                    >>>>> checked out by this particular developer or others.
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure everything
                                    > is
                                    >>>>> checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>> Omar,
                                    >>>>> "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the
                                    > easiest
                                    >>>>> thing to get used to."
                                    >>> > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                    > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                    >>> 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                    >>>>> Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                    >>>>>> This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to
                                    >>>>> it. It was
                                    >>>>>> something I was worried about before I started using it but it is
                                    >>>>> actually
                                    >>>>>> not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you
                                    >>>>> have the
                                    >>>>>> latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and
                                    >>> missing
                                    >>>>>> someone elses changes.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This can
                                    >>>>> either be
                                    >>>>>> local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions here
                                    >>>>> have delt
                                    >>>>>> with which is best for the 'working directory').
                                    >>>>>> This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you
                                    > try
                                    >>>>> to book
                                    >>>>>> a program out to work on it).
                                    >>>>>> You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object (each
                                    >>>>> object is
                                    >>>>>> one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an
                                    >>> earler
                                    >>>>>> version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each do
                                    > a
                                    >>>>> project
                                    >>>>>> wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again
                                    > if
                                    >>>>> there
                                    >>>>>> is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working
                                    > one.
                                    >>>>>> But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our
                                    > collegues
                                    >>>>> latest
                                    >>>>>> changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                                    >>>>> hadn't booked
                                    >>>>>> their changes back yet.
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                                    >>>>> before saving
                                    >>>>>> the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a
                                    >>> collegues work
                                    >>>>>> which we do one week out of four).
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> Rosie
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>> 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@>:
                                    >>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> About "Getting the latest version".
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> What is that exactly?
                                    >>>>>>> Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know
                                    >>> that this
                                    >>>>>>> (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except
                                    >>> for what
                                    >>>>>>> is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often
                                    >>> ("RE-synchronising")
                                    >>>>>>> automatically for us?
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have
                                    >>> to think
                                    >>>>>>> and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait
                                    >>> minutes
                                    >>>>>>> in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are
                                    >>> working on
                                    >>>>>>> the latest?
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the
                                    >>> coffee
                                    >>>>>>> machine all the time saying things like.
                                    >>>>>>> "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have
                                    >>> sence of
                                    >>>>>>> what is it you are working on and might as well it be the
                                    >>> latest and
                                    >>>>>>> this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time
                                    >>> to get
                                    >>>>>>> it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone will
                                    >>>>>>> correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Omar,
                                    >>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                                    >>>>>>> --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >>> <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                    >>>
                                    >>>>> 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                    >>>>>>>> I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being
                                    >>> forced
                                    >>>>>>> into it,
                                    >>>>>>>> but it is really nice'
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one
                                    > monster
                                    >>>>>>> program it
                                    >>>>>>>> is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                                    >>>>> initially was
                                    >>>>>>>> only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If you
                                    >>>>> run 'Get
                                    >>>>>>>> Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but
                                    > everything
                                    >>>>> else is
                                    >>>>>>>> very fast.
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just
                                    >>>>> about being
                                    >>>>>>>> forced to buy it).
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> Rosie
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>> 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                                    >>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice,
                                    > and
                                    >>>>> hasn't
                                    >>>>>>>>> FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code
                                    >>>>> between
                                    >>>>>>>>> releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to
                                    >>>>> code share
                                    >>>>>>>>> will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big
                                    >>> release. VSS
                                    >>>>>>>>> certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs
                                    >>> in our
                                    >>>>>>>>> application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have
                                    >>>>> any of the
                                    >>>>>>>>> monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In
                                    >>>>> the early
                                    >>>>>>>>> releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I
                                    > would
                                    >>>>> never go
                                    >>>>>>>>> anywhere near it again.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> Steven Burrows
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> ________________________________
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >>> <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                    >>>>> 40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >>>>> <magicu-l%
                                    >>>>>>> 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                    >>>>>>>>> magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                    > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                    >>> 40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >>> <magicu-l%
                                    >>>>> 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>>>> 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                    >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                                    >>>>>>>>> Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                                    >>>>>>>>> To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >>> <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                    >>>>> 40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >>>>> <magicu-l%
                                    >>>>>>> 40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >>>>>>>>> Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use
                                    >>> with V10?
                                    >>>>>>>>> We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on a
                                    >>>>> version
                                    >>>>>>>>> control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the
                                    > built
                                    >>>>> in MVCS
                                    >>>>>>>>> to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It
                                    > was
                                    >>>>> simple
                                    >>>>>>>>> and fast.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic,
                                    > but
                                    >>>>> it is
                                    >>>>>>>>> unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs
                                    >>> (most of
                                    >>>>>>>>> ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to
                                    >>> check out a
                                    >>>>>>>>> single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were
                                    > first
                                    >>>>> setting
                                    >>>>>>>>> up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard that
                                    >>>>> it may be
                                    >>>>>>>>> even slower than CVS.
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                                    >>>>>>>>>
                                    >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
                                    >>>>>>>>> Andy



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Rosie Coller
                                    Not in the UK. It s still miles in the UK. UK is stange on this. We re suposadly on the metric system like Europe but there are lots of things which are not.
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Not in the UK. It's still miles in the UK.

                                      UK is stange on this. We're suposadly on the metric system like Europe but
                                      there are lots of things which are not.

                                      Speeds Limits on the roads and the speedo on cars is in Mile Per Hour and
                                      most people use Miles for distance travelled and Miles per Gallon for fuel
                                      usage etc.

                                      Having said that if I am measureing something small I would use cm or mm. A
                                      person though would be measure in Ft and Inches.

                                      We're a really mixed up country on meansurement units. Officially beer is
                                      now served in litres, but most people still ask for a pint in the a pub.

                                      Rosie

                                      2008/6/2 sherman levine <slevine@...>:

                                      > Don't you guys say "kilometrage", or something like that?
                                      > Sherm
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...<RosieC.eDev%40Googlemail.com>
                                      > >
                                      > To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                      > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:04 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?
                                      >
                                      > > All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern.
                                      > Now
                                      > > I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.
                                      > >
                                      > > But as always... your millage may vary.
                                      > >
                                      > > Rosie
                                      > >
                                      > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...<omar.lamin%40informaplus.com>
                                      > >:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Hi Rosie,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The part about not seeing what another still have checked out is just
                                      > > > fair and to be expected and when using TD, we always made a point for
                                      > > > people to check back their stuff when they were finished. If someone
                                      > > > wants to hold it longer for some reason of his, fine, but when it is
                                      > > > over, please give it back to the general public.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > My point is that now that someone gave it back. One or many who do not
                                      > > > get the latest (manually which could take several minutes if you want
                                      > > > to make sure you have it all) still don't have it. To my understanding
                                      > > > this does not have to be this way and offers potential for confusion
                                      > > > which makes it wrong.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Worst than that it is not, however correct it isn't either.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Using it, I will most likely be forced to one day, but understanding
                                      > > > the above, I fail to see that I will get to like it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > BTW, I do also understand that this is OT to MSE to some degree. They
                                      > > > just inherit the third party product weakness in this case. I won't
                                      > > > elaborate on the "to some degree". I understand this as an already
                                      > > > lost battle.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Omar,
                                      > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                      > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                      > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though
                                      > > > they have
                                      > > > > finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with
                                      > > > MVCS. (One
                                      > > > > of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week unless one
                                      > > > of us
                                      > > > > asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest version
                                      > > > once a
                                      > > > > day and most of the time we are all working on different projects so
                                      > not
                                      > > > > seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project. But a
                                      > > > week and a
                                      > > > > bit into that project we have still not really had a problem. Once
                                      > > > when I
                                      > > > > did a cross reference a program he had already changed and removed
                                      > > > the file
                                      > > > > I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It would be
                                      > > > > theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross reference if a
                                      > > > collegue
                                      > > > > had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem yet and
                                      > once
                                      > > > > again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other
                                      > > > programmer
                                      > > > > had not booked their work back yet.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your changes
                                      > > > because
                                      > > > > you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used to get
                                      > > > that with
                                      > > > > the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any worse.
                                      > > > We just
                                      > > > > ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we have all
                                      > > > the bits
                                      > > > > we need to run the program.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the ecf will
                                      > > > always
                                      > > > > have got the latest version.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I WAS worried about this situation before we started working with
                                      > > > it. None
                                      > > > > of my fears relating to it have been realised.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Rosie
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Rosie
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > Hi Rosie,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual
                                      > local
                                      > > > > > copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together
                                      > with
                                      > > > > > the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is not
                                      > > > > > checked out by this particular developer or others.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure everything
                                      > is
                                      > > > > > checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Omar,
                                      > > > > > "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the
                                      > easiest
                                      > > > > > thing to get used to."
                                      > > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                      >
                                      > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                      > > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used to
                                      > > > > > it. It was
                                      > > > > > > something I was worried about before I started using it but it is
                                      > > > > > actually
                                      > > > > > > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure you
                                      > > > > > have the
                                      > > > > > > latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and
                                      > > > missing
                                      > > > > > > someone elses changes.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This
                                      > can
                                      > > > > > either be
                                      > > > > > > local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions
                                      > here
                                      > > > > > have delt
                                      > > > > > > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                                      > > > > > > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if you
                                      > try
                                      > > > > > to book
                                      > > > > > > a program out to work on it).
                                      > > > > > > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object
                                      > (each
                                      > > > > > object is
                                      > > > > > > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get' an
                                      > > > earler
                                      > > > > > > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to each
                                      > do
                                      > a
                                      > > > > > project
                                      > > > > > > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe again
                                      > if
                                      > > > > > there
                                      > > > > > > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working
                                      > one.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our
                                      > collegues
                                      > > > > > latest
                                      > > > > > > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                                      > > > > > hadn't booked
                                      > > > > > > their changes back yet.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                                      > > > > > before saving
                                      > > > > > > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a
                                      > > > collegues work
                                      > > > > > > which we do one week out of four).
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Rosie
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@>:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > About "Getting the latest version".
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > What is that exactly?
                                      > > > > > > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know
                                      > > > that this
                                      > > > > > > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except
                                      > > > for what
                                      > > > > > > > is being checked out and in development by another developer?
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often
                                      > > > ("RE-synchronising")
                                      > > > > > > > automatically for us?
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you have
                                      > > > to think
                                      > > > > > > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to wait
                                      > > > minutes
                                      > > > > > > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are
                                      > > > working on
                                      > > > > > > > the latest?
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the
                                      > > > coffee
                                      > > > > > > > machine all the time saying things like.
                                      > > > > > > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have
                                      > > > sence of
                                      > > > > > > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the
                                      > > > latest and
                                      > > > > > > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every time
                                      > > > to get
                                      > > > > > > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone
                                      > will
                                      > > > > > > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Omar,
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                                      > > > > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                      > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at being
                                      > > > forced
                                      > > > > > > > into it,
                                      > > > > > > > > but it is really nice'
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one
                                      > monster
                                      > > > > > > > program it
                                      > > > > > > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                                      > > > > > initially was
                                      > > > > > > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If
                                      > you
                                      > > > > > run 'Get
                                      > > > > > > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but
                                      > everything
                                      > > > > > else is
                                      > > > > > > > > very fast.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it (just
                                      > > > > > about being
                                      > > > > > > > > forced to buy it).
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > Rosie
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really nice,
                                      > and
                                      > > > > > hasn't
                                      > > > > > > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing code
                                      > > > > > between
                                      > > > > > > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability to
                                      > > > > > code share
                                      > > > > > > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big
                                      > > > release. VSS
                                      > > > > > > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any programs
                                      > > > in our
                                      > > > > > > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't have
                                      > > > > > any of the
                                      > > > > > > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS In
                                      > > > > > the early
                                      > > > > > > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I
                                      > would
                                      > > > > > never go
                                      > > > > > > > > > anywhere near it again.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Steven Burrows
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com<magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                      > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                      > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > > > <magicu-l%
                                      > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                      > > > > > > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                      > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > <magicu-l%
                                      > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                      > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                                      > > > > > > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                                      > > > > > > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                      > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                      > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > > > <magicu-l%
                                      > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > > > > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use
                                      > > > with V10?
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide on
                                      > a
                                      > > > > > version
                                      > > > > > > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the
                                      > built
                                      > > > > > in MVCS
                                      > > > > > > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us. It
                                      > was
                                      > > > > > simple
                                      > > > > > > > > > and fast.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with Magic,
                                      > but
                                      > > > > > it is
                                      > > > > > > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400 programs
                                      > > > (most of
                                      > > > > > > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to
                                      > > > check out a
                                      > > > > > > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were
                                      > first
                                      > > > > > setting
                                      > > > > > > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard
                                      > that
                                      > > > > > it may be
                                      > > > > > > > > > even slower than CVS.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > What version control packages do people prefer around here?
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                      > > > > > > > > > Andy
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • sherman levine
                                      as in Can ya pint me the way to tha pub ... From: Rosie Coller To: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        as in
                                        "Can ya pint me the way to tha pub"
                                        :-)

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...>
                                        To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:43 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?


                                        > Not in the UK. It's still miles in the UK.
                                        >
                                        > UK is stange on this. We're suposadly on the metric system like Europe but
                                        > there are lots of things which are not.
                                        >
                                        > Speeds Limits on the roads and the speedo on cars is in Mile Per Hour and
                                        > most people use Miles for distance travelled and Miles per Gallon for fuel
                                        > usage etc.
                                        >
                                        > Having said that if I am measureing something small I would use cm or mm.
                                        A
                                        > person though would be measure in Ft and Inches.
                                        >
                                        > We're a really mixed up country on meansurement units. Officially beer is
                                        > now served in litres, but most people still ask for a pint in the a pub.
                                        >
                                        > Rosie
                                        >
                                        > 2008/6/2 sherman levine <slevine@...>:
                                        >
                                        > > Don't you guys say "kilometrage", or something like that?
                                        > > Sherm
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: "Rosie Coller"
                                        <RosieC.eDev@...<RosieC.eDev%40Googlemail.com>
                                        > > >
                                        > > To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                        > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:04 PM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with
                                        V10?
                                        > >
                                        > > > All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern.
                                        > > Now
                                        > > > I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > But as always... your millage may vary.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Rosie
                                        > > >
                                        > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin
                                        <omar.lamin@...<omar.lamin%40informaplus.com>
                                        > > >:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Hi Rosie,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The part about not seeing what another still have checked out is
                                        just
                                        > > > > fair and to be expected and when using TD, we always made a point
                                        for
                                        > > > > people to check back their stuff when they were finished. If someone
                                        > > > > wants to hold it longer for some reason of his, fine, but when it is
                                        > > > > over, please give it back to the general public.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > My point is that now that someone gave it back. One or many who do
                                        not
                                        > > > > get the latest (manually which could take several minutes if you
                                        want
                                        > > > > to make sure you have it all) still don't have it. To my
                                        understanding
                                        > > > > this does not have to be this way and offers potential for confusion
                                        > > > > which makes it wrong.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Worst than that it is not, however correct it isn't either.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Using it, I will most likely be forced to one day, but understanding
                                        > > > > the above, I fail to see that I will get to like it.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > BTW, I do also understand that this is OT to MSE to some degree.
                                        They
                                        > > > > just inherit the third party product weakness in this case. I won't
                                        > > > > elaborate on the "to some degree". I understand this as an already
                                        > > > > lost battle.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Omar,
                                        > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                        <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                        > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                        > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > But if your collegues have not booked something back (even though
                                        > > > > they have
                                        > > > > > finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with
                                        > > > > MVCS. (One
                                        > > > > > of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week unless
                                        one
                                        > > > > of us
                                        > > > > > asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest version
                                        > > > > once a
                                        > > > > > day and most of the time we are all working on different projects
                                        so
                                        > > not
                                        > > > > > seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project. But a
                                        > > > > week and a
                                        > > > > > bit into that project we have still not really had a problem. Once
                                        > > > > when I
                                        > > > > > did a cross reference a program he had already changed and removed
                                        > > > > the file
                                        > > > > > I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It would be
                                        > > > > > theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross reference if a
                                        > > > > collegue
                                        > > > > > had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem yet
                                        and
                                        > > once
                                        > > > > > again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other
                                        > > > > programmer
                                        > > > > > had not booked their work back yet.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your
                                        changes
                                        > > > > because
                                        > > > > > you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used to get
                                        > > > > that with
                                        > > > > > the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any worse.
                                        > > > > We just
                                        > > > > > ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we have
                                        all
                                        > > > > the bits
                                        > > > > > we need to run the program.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the ecf
                                        will
                                        > > > > always
                                        > > > > > have got the latest version.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I WAS worried about this situation before we started working with
                                        > > > > it. None
                                        > > > > > of my fears relating to it have been realised.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Rosie
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Rosie
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...>:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Hi Rosie,
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual
                                        > > local
                                        > > > > > > copies of what is checked out by a particular developer together
                                        > > with
                                        > > > > > > the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that is
                                        not
                                        > > > > > > checked out by this particular developer or others.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure
                                        everything
                                        > > is
                                        > > > > > > checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Omar,
                                        > > > > > > "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the
                                        > > easiest
                                        > > > > > > thing to get used to."
                                        > > > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                        > >
                                        > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                        > > > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you get used
                                        to
                                        > > > > > > it. It was
                                        > > > > > > > something I was worried about before I started using it but it
                                        is
                                        > > > > > > actually
                                        > > > > > > > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big advantages.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > When you book a program out then it will automatically ensure
                                        you
                                        > > > > > > have the
                                        > > > > > > > latest version first. Now worry about working on a program and
                                        > > > > missing
                                        > > > > > > > someone elses changes.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp. (This
                                        > > can
                                        > > > > > > either be
                                        > > > > > > > local or in a user specific directory... previous discussions
                                        > > here
                                        > > > > > > have delt
                                        > > > > > > > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                                        > > > > > > > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above if
                                        you
                                        > > try
                                        > > > > > > to book
                                        > > > > > > > a program out to work on it).
                                        > > > > > > > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object
                                        > > (each
                                        > > > > > > object is
                                        > > > > > > > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > This has the advantage that if required I can actually 'get'
                                        an
                                        > > > > earler
                                        > > > > > > > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend to
                                        each
                                        > > do
                                        > > a
                                        > > > > > > project
                                        > > > > > > > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning. Maybe
                                        again
                                        > > if
                                        > > > > > > there
                                        > > > > > > > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been working
                                        > > one.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our
                                        > > collegues
                                        > > > > > > latest
                                        > > > > > > > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS if they
                                        > > > > > > hadn't booked
                                        > > > > > > > their changes back yet.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > You just need to make sure you have the latest project version
                                        > > > > > > before saving
                                        > > > > > > > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a
                                        > > > > collegues work
                                        > > > > > > > which we do one week out of four).
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Rosie
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@>:
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > About "Getting the latest version".
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > What is that exactly?
                                        > > > > > > > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know
                                        > > > > that this
                                        > > > > > > > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time except
                                        > > > > for what
                                        > > > > > > > > is being checked out and in development by another
                                        developer?
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often
                                        > > > > ("RE-synchronising")
                                        > > > > > > > > automatically for us?
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if you
                                        have
                                        > > > > to think
                                        > > > > > > > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have to
                                        wait
                                        > > > > minutes
                                        > > > > > > > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are
                                        > > > > working on
                                        > > > > > > > > the latest?
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up at the
                                        > > > > coffee
                                        > > > > > > > > machine all the time saying things like.
                                        > > > > > > > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have
                                        > > > > sence of
                                        > > > > > > > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the
                                        > > > > latest and
                                        > > > > > > > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes every
                                        time
                                        > > > > to get
                                        > > > > > > > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope someone
                                        > > will
                                        > > > > > > > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Omar,
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                                        > > > > > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                        <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                        > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy at
                                        being
                                        > > > > forced
                                        > > > > > > > > into it,
                                        > > > > > > > > > but it is really nice'
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one
                                        > > monster
                                        > > > > > > > > program it
                                        > > > > > > > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and import
                                        > > > > > > initially was
                                        > > > > > > > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it crashed). If
                                        > > you
                                        > > > > > > run 'Get
                                        > > > > > > > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but
                                        > > everything
                                        > > > > > > else is
                                        > > > > > > > > > very fast.
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with it
                                        (just
                                        > > > > > > about being
                                        > > > > > > > > > forced to buy it).
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > Rosie
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is really
                                        nice,
                                        > > and
                                        > > > > > > hasn't
                                        > > > > > > > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even sharing
                                        code
                                        > > > > > > between
                                        > > > > > > > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The ability
                                        to
                                        > > > > > > code share
                                        > > > > > > > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big
                                        > > > > release. VSS
                                        > > > > > > > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any
                                        programs
                                        > > > > in our
                                        > > > > > > > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we don't
                                        have
                                        > > > > > > any of the
                                        > > > > > > > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled with CVS
                                        In
                                        > > > > > > the early
                                        > > > > > > > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as slow, I
                                        > > would
                                        > > > > > > never go
                                        > > > > > > > > > > anywhere near it again.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this year.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Steven Burrows
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > From:
                                        magicu-l@yahoogroups.com<magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                        > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                        > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > > > <magicu-l%
                                        > > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                        > > > > > > > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                        > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > <magicu-l%
                                        > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                                        > > > > > > > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                        <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                        > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                        > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > > > <magicu-l%
                                        > > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package to use
                                        > > > > with V10?
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to decide
                                        on
                                        > > a
                                        > > > > > > version
                                        > > > > > > > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just used the
                                        > > built
                                        > > > > > > in MVCS
                                        > > > > > > > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great for us.
                                        It
                                        > > was
                                        > > > > > > simple
                                        > > > > > > > > > > and fast.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came with
                                        Magic,
                                        > > but
                                        > > > > > > it is
                                        > > > > > > > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400
                                        programs
                                        > > > > (most of
                                        > > > > > > > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to
                                        > > > > check out a
                                        > > > > > > > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when we were
                                        > > first
                                        > > > > > > setting
                                        > > > > > > > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also heard
                                        > > that
                                        > > > > > > it may be
                                        > > > > > > > > > > even slower than CVS.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > What version control packages do people prefer around
                                        here?
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Andy
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ------------------------------------
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Alan Brookes
                                        Only in the posh areas north of Watford, Rosie. Here in the deep south (well, Essex, anyway) we still use rods, chains and furlongs. Makes fuel consumption
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Only in the posh areas north of Watford, Rosie.
                                          Here in the deep south (well, Essex, anyway) we still use rods, chains and furlongs.

                                          Makes fuel consumption _really_ difficult to calculate.

                                          :-)


                                          Best Regards

                                          Alan


                                          Rosie Coller wrote:
                                          > Not in the UK. It's still miles in the UK.
                                          >
                                          > UK is stange on this. We're suposadly on the metric system like Europe but
                                          > there are lots of things which are not.
                                          >
                                          > Speeds Limits on the roads and the speedo on cars is in Mile Per Hour and
                                          > most people use Miles for distance travelled and Miles per Gallon for fuel
                                          > usage etc.
                                          >
                                          > Having said that if I am measureing something small I would use cm or mm. A
                                          > person though would be measure in Ft and Inches.
                                          >
                                          > We're a really mixed up country on meansurement units. Officially beer is
                                          > now served in litres, but most people still ask for a pint in the a pub.
                                          >
                                          > Rosie
                                          >
                                          > 2008/6/2 sherman levine <slevine@...>:
                                          >
                                          >> Don't you guys say "kilometrage", or something like that?
                                          >> Sherm
                                          >>
                                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                                          >> From: "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...<RosieC.eDev%40Googlemail.com>
                                          >> To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                          >> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:04 PM
                                          >> Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?
                                          >>
                                          >>> All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern.
                                          >> Now
                                          >>> I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> But as always... your millage may vary.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Rosie
                                          >>>



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Omar Lamin
                                          Now I start to understand why you people get to like VSS... JUST KIDDING :-) Omar, ... Europe but ... Hour and ... for fuel ... or mm. A ... beer is ... with
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
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                                            Now I start to understand why you people get to like VSS...

                                            JUST KIDDING :-)

                                            Omar,
                                            --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Not in the UK. It's still miles in the UK.
                                            >
                                            > UK is stange on this. We're suposadly on the metric system like
                                            Europe but
                                            > there are lots of things which are not.
                                            >
                                            > Speeds Limits on the roads and the speedo on cars is in Mile Per
                                            Hour and
                                            > most people use Miles for distance travelled and Miles per Gallon
                                            for fuel
                                            > usage etc.
                                            >
                                            > Having said that if I am measureing something small I would use cm
                                            or mm. A
                                            > person though would be measure in Ft and Inches.
                                            >
                                            > We're a really mixed up country on meansurement units. Officially
                                            beer is
                                            > now served in litres, but most people still ask for a pint in the a pub.
                                            >
                                            > Rosie
                                            >
                                            > 2008/6/2 sherman levine <slevine@...>:
                                            >
                                            > > Don't you guys say "kilometrage", or something like that?
                                            > > Sherm
                                            > >
                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > From: "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...<RosieC.eDev%40Googlemail.com>
                                            > > >
                                            > > To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                            > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:04 PM
                                            > > Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use
                                            with V10?
                                            > >
                                            > > > All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same
                                            concern.
                                            > > Now
                                            > > > I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > But as always... your millage may vary.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Rosie
                                            > > >
                                            > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@...<omar.lamin%40informaplus.com>
                                            > > >:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > > Hi Rosie,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > The part about not seeing what another still have checked out
                                            is just
                                            > > > > fair and to be expected and when using TD, we always made a
                                            point for
                                            > > > > people to check back their stuff when they were finished. If
                                            someone
                                            > > > > wants to hold it longer for some reason of his, fine, but when
                                            it is
                                            > > > > over, please give it back to the general public.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > My point is that now that someone gave it back. One or many
                                            who do not
                                            > > > > get the latest (manually which could take several minutes if
                                            you want
                                            > > > > to make sure you have it all) still don't have it. To my
                                            understanding
                                            > > > > this does not have to be this way and offers potential for
                                            confusion
                                            > > > > which makes it wrong.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Worst than that it is not, however correct it isn't either.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Using it, I will most likely be forced to one day, but
                                            understanding
                                            > > > > the above, I fail to see that I will get to like it.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > BTW, I do also understand that this is OT to MSE to some
                                            degree. They
                                            > > > > just inherit the third party product weakness in this case. I
                                            won't
                                            > > > > elaborate on the "to some degree". I understand this as an already
                                            > > > > lost battle.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Omar,
                                            > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                            <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                            > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                            > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > But if your collegues have not booked something back (even
                                            though
                                            > > > > they have
                                            > > > > > finished with it) then you do not see the latest copy even with
                                            > > > > MVCS. (One
                                            > > > > > of my collegues only books stuff back arround once a week
                                            unless one
                                            > > > > of us
                                            > > > > > asks for access to change a program he has also worked on).
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > You quite quickly get into the habit of getting the latest
                                            version
                                            > > > > once a
                                            > > > > > day and most of the time we are all working on different
                                            projects so
                                            > > not
                                            > > > > > seeing a collegues changes makes little difference.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Currently though two of us ARE working on the SAME project.
                                            But a
                                            > > > > week and a
                                            > > > > > bit into that project we have still not really had a
                                            problem. Once
                                            > > > > when I
                                            > > > > > did a cross reference a program he had already changed and
                                            removed
                                            > > > > the file
                                            > > > > > I was cross referencing came up in my cross reference. It
                                            would be
                                            > > > > > theoretically possible to miss a program in a cross
                                            reference if a
                                            > > > > collegue
                                            > > > > > had added file to it... but we've not hit that as a problem
                                            yet and
                                            > > once
                                            > > > > > again... it would have been the same with the MVCS if the other
                                            > > > > programmer
                                            > > > > > had not booked their work back yet.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Sometimes a program goes wrong when you run it to test your
                                            changes
                                            > > > > because
                                            > > > > > you've only got part of someone elses changes, but we used
                                            to get
                                            > > > > that with
                                            > > > > > the MVCS as well and have not noticed the situation get any
                                            worse.
                                            > > > > We just
                                            > > > > > ask the others what might be upsetting it and make sure we
                                            have all
                                            > > > > the bits
                                            > > > > > we need to run the program.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Again when it goes out to a customer the person saving the
                                            ecf will
                                            > > > > always
                                            > > > > > have got the latest version.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > I WAS worried about this situation before we started working
                                            with
                                            > > > > it. None
                                            > > > > > of my fears relating to it have been realised.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Rosie
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Rosie
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@>:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Hi Rosie,
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > In my "Naive" understanding, MVCS should enable using punctual
                                            > > local
                                            > > > > > > copies of what is checked out by a particular developer
                                            together
                                            > > with
                                            > > > > > > the central (holding latest copy) for everything else that
                                            is not
                                            > > > > > > checked out by this particular developer or others.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > No need to "re-synchronize" in this case, just make sure
                                            everything
                                            > > is
                                            > > > > > > checked in before you deploy (that is fair enough).
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Omar,
                                            > > > > > > "One have to be careful with atrocities, they are sometime the
                                            > > easiest
                                            > > > > > > thing to get used to."
                                            > > > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                            > >
                                            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                            > > > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > This I guess IS a big difference to the MCVS, BUT you
                                            get used to
                                            > > > > > > it. It was
                                            > > > > > > > something I was worried about before I started using it
                                            but it is
                                            > > > > > > actually
                                            > > > > > > > not a problem. In fact in some cases there are big
                                            advantages.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > When you book a program out then it will automatically
                                            ensure you
                                            > > > > > > have the
                                            > > > > > > > latest version first. Now worry about working on a
                                            program and
                                            > > > > missing
                                            > > > > > > > someone elses changes.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > BUT... you have a user specific copy of the xml and edp.
                                            (This
                                            > > can
                                            > > > > > > either be
                                            > > > > > > > local or in a user specific directory... previous
                                            discussions
                                            > > here
                                            > > > > > > have delt
                                            > > > > > > > with which is best for the 'working directory').
                                            > > > > > > > This copy does NOT update automatically (except as above
                                            if you
                                            > > try
                                            > > > > > > to book
                                            > > > > > > > a program out to work on it).
                                            > > > > > > > You can either do a 'get latest version' for a single object
                                            > > (each
                                            > > > > > > object is
                                            > > > > > > > one of the underlying xml files) or for the whole project.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > This has the advantage that if required I can actually
                                            'get' an
                                            > > > > earler
                                            > > > > > > > version of a program to look at what it used to be like.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > It's not a big problem once you are used to it. We tend
                                            to each
                                            > > do
                                            > > a
                                            > > > > > > project
                                            > > > > > > > wide 'get latest version' first thing in the morning.
                                            Maybe again
                                            > > if
                                            > > > > > > there
                                            > > > > > > > is a good reason we need something a collegue has been
                                            working
                                            > > one.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > But most of the time we don't need to know we have all our
                                            > > collegues
                                            > > > > > > latest
                                            > > > > > > > changes, after all it's just the same as with the MCVS
                                            if they
                                            > > > > > > hadn't booked
                                            > > > > > > > their changes back yet.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > You just need to make sure you have the latest project
                                            version
                                            > > > > > > before saving
                                            > > > > > > > the ecf files to issue to the customer (and if testing a
                                            > > > > collegues work
                                            > > > > > > > which we do one week out of four).
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Rosie
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > 2008/6/2 Omar Lamin <omar.lamin@>:
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > Hold on a second. (Rather than several minutes :-).
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > About "Getting the latest version".
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > What is that exactly?
                                            > > > > > > > > Isn't it something that one would like (or expect) to know
                                            > > > > that this
                                            > > > > > > > > (the latest version) is what he is using all the time
                                            except
                                            > > > > for what
                                            > > > > > > > > is being checked out and in development by another
                                            developer?
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > Is this what TD did in a few seconds very often
                                            > > > > ("RE-synchronising")
                                            > > > > > > > > automatically for us?
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > If so, I just don't get it. How could one like it if
                                            you have
                                            > > > > to think
                                            > > > > > > > > and consider this all the time and on top of that have
                                            to wait
                                            > > > > minutes
                                            > > > > > > > > in a case where you want to be safe and know that you are
                                            > > > > working on
                                            > > > > > > > > the latest?
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > Here, we just can not afford to have people piling up
                                            at the
                                            > > > > coffee
                                            > > > > > > > > machine all the time saying things like.
                                            > > > > > > > > "Well, you know, it is usefull in general to know and have
                                            > > > > sence of
                                            > > > > > > > > what is it you are working on and might as well it be the
                                            > > > > latest and
                                            > > > > > > > > this greatest thing here just takes several minutes
                                            every time
                                            > > > > to get
                                            > > > > > > > > it to you...Perfect for another coffee..."
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > I know, I am being sarcastic here and I really hope
                                            someone
                                            > > will
                                            > > > > > > > > correct me on what is it I am completly missunderstanding.
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > Omar,
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > "No dark sarcasm in the classroom"
                                            > > > > > > > > --- In magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                            <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                            > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Rosie
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > Coller" <RosieC.eDev@> wrote:
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > I second what Steven says, including the 'Not happy
                                            at being
                                            > > > > forced
                                            > > > > > > > > into it,
                                            > > > > > > > > > but it is really nice'
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > VSS is a LOT faster that CVS. I would say apart from one
                                            > > monster
                                            > > > > > > > > program it
                                            > > > > > > > > > is about instant. Our app is over 2000 programs and
                                            import
                                            > > > > > > initially was
                                            > > > > > > > > > only about 10minutes (4hours on CVS before it
                                            crashed). If
                                            > > you
                                            > > > > > > run 'Get
                                            > > > > > > > > > Latest Version' it's probably a couple of minutes but
                                            > > everything
                                            > > > > > > else is
                                            > > > > > > > > > very fast.
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > I have no complaints about the actual working with
                                            it (just
                                            > > > > > > about being
                                            > > > > > > > > > forced to buy it).
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > Rosie
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > 2008/6/2 Steven Burrows <stevenburrows@>:
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > So far we are very happy with MS VSS.
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > Not happy at being forced into it, but it is
                                            really nice,
                                            > > and
                                            > > > > > > hasn't
                                            > > > > > > > > > > FUBARed anything yet (touch wood), we are even
                                            sharing code
                                            > > > > > > between
                                            > > > > > > > > > > releases so we only have to fix things once. The
                                            ability to
                                            > > > > > > code share
                                            > > > > > > > > > > will pay for the VSS licenses within weeks of a big
                                            > > > > release. VSS
                                            > > > > > > > > > > certainly does NOT take seconds to check out any
                                            programs
                                            > > > > in our
                                            > > > > > > > > > > application, for us it is "instant", although we
                                            don't have
                                            > > > > > > any of the
                                            > > > > > > > > > > monsters that Rosie seems to have. We struggled
                                            with CVS In
                                            > > > > > > the early
                                            > > > > > > > > > > releases, it was horribly unreliable as well as
                                            slow, I
                                            > > would
                                            > > > > > > never go
                                            > > > > > > > > > > anywhere near it again.
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > We might even be trying MS Team Server later this
                                            year.
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > Steven Burrows
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > From:
                                            magicu-l@yahoogroups.com<magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                            > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                            > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > > > > <magicu-l%
                                            > > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                            > > > > > > > > > > magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > > <magicu-l%
                                            > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                            > > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of ajreynolds1
                                            > > > > > > > > > > Sent: 30 May 2008 22:32
                                            > > > > > > > > > > To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                            <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                            > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > > <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com><magicu-l%
                                            > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > > > > <magicu-l%
                                            > > > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [magicu-l] What version control package
                                            to use
                                            > > > > with V10?
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > We have just started using V10 and are trying to
                                            decide on
                                            > > a
                                            > > > > > > version
                                            > > > > > > > > > > control package for it. Up through V9.4 we just
                                            used the
                                            > > built
                                            > > > > > > in MVCS
                                            > > > > > > > > > > to manage team development, and it worked great
                                            for us. It
                                            > > was
                                            > > > > > > simple
                                            > > > > > > > > > > and fast.
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > With V10 we've started using CVS since it came
                                            with Magic,
                                            > > but
                                            > > > > > > it is
                                            > > > > > > > > > > unacceptably slow. Even on a project of only 400
                                            programs
                                            > > > > (most of
                                            > > > > > > > > > > ours are much larger) it takes several seconds just to
                                            > > > > check out a
                                            > > > > > > > > > > single program. CVS was also quite unstable when
                                            we were
                                            > > first
                                            > > > > > > setting
                                            > > > > > > > > > > up our application in it, it crashed several times.
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > I know that some people use MS VSS, but have also
                                            heard
                                            > > that
                                            > > > > > > it may be
                                            > > > > > > > > > > even slower than CVS.
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > What version control packages do people prefer
                                            around here?
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                                            > > > > > > > > > > Andy
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ------------------------------------
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • Andy Jerison
                                            Just use Google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GZAZ%2CGZAZ%3A2007-31%2CGZAZ %3Aen&q=500+furlongs%2Fimperial+gal+in+km%2Fl&btnG=Search Andy
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jun 2, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Just use Google:

                                              http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GZAZ%2CGZAZ%3A2007-31%2CGZAZ
                                              %3Aen&q=500+furlongs%2Fimperial+gal+in+km%2Fl&btnG=Search

                                              Andy

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:magicu-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                              Of Alan Brookes
                                              Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 1:16 PM
                                              To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?

                                              Only in the posh areas north of Watford, Rosie.
                                              Here in the deep south (well, Essex, anyway) we still use rods, chains and
                                              furlongs.

                                              Makes fuel consumption _really_ difficult to calculate.

                                              :-)


                                              Best Regards

                                              Alan


                                              Rosie Coller wrote:
                                              > Not in the UK. It's still miles in the UK.
                                              >
                                              > UK is stange on this. We're suposadly on the metric system like Europe but
                                              > there are lots of things which are not.
                                              >
                                              > Speeds Limits on the roads and the speedo on cars is in Mile Per Hour and
                                              > most people use Miles for distance travelled and Miles per Gallon for fuel
                                              > usage etc.
                                              >
                                              > Having said that if I am measureing something small I would use cm or mm.
                                              A
                                              > person though would be measure in Ft and Inches.
                                              >
                                              > We're a really mixed up country on meansurement units. Officially beer is
                                              > now served in litres, but most people still ask for a pint in the a pub.
                                              >
                                              > Rosie
                                              >
                                              > 2008/6/2 sherman levine <slevine@...>:
                                              >
                                              >> Don't you guys say "kilometrage", or something like that?
                                              >> Sherm
                                              >>
                                              >> ----- Original Message -----
                                              >> From: "Rosie Coller"
                                              <RosieC.eDev@...<RosieC.eDev%40Googlemail.com>
                                              >> To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                              >> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:04 PM
                                              >> Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?
                                              >>
                                              >>> All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern.
                                              >> Now
                                              >>> I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.
                                              >>>
                                              >>> But as always... your millage may vary.
                                              >>>
                                              >>> Rosie
                                              >>>



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                              ------------------------------------

                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • Rosie Coller
                                              Only in the posh areas north of Watford Just as an aside do you realise that North of Watford as a commonly used measure of where North starts in England
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jun 3, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                'Only in the posh areas north of Watford'

                                                Just as an aside do you realise that 'North of Watford' as a commonly used
                                                measure of where 'North' starts in England is actually referring to 'Watford
                                                Gap' in the midlands (around Jct 17 ish on the M1) and NOT to the Watford
                                                near London. It's a common mis-conception. The Watford referred to is
                                                actually a tiny little village which has only become known because of the
                                                service station for the motorway near it.

                                                Having grown up near Jct 18 of the M1 I've always been in the north though,
                                                but only just. Now in Nuneaton I'm not much further north... but a small
                                                bit.

                                                Rosie

                                                2008/6/2 Alan Brookes <alanjbrookes@...>:

                                                > Only in the posh areas north of Watford, Rosie.
                                                > Here in the deep south (well, Essex, anyway) we still use rods, chains and
                                                > furlongs.
                                                >
                                                > Makes fuel consumption _really_ difficult to calculate.
                                                >
                                                > :-)
                                                >
                                                > Best Regards
                                                >
                                                > Alan
                                                >
                                                > Rosie Coller wrote:
                                                > > Not in the UK. It's still miles in the UK.
                                                > >
                                                > > UK is stange on this. We're suposadly on the metric system like Europe
                                                > but
                                                > > there are lots of things which are not.
                                                > >
                                                > > Speeds Limits on the roads and the speedo on cars is in Mile Per Hour and
                                                > > most people use Miles for distance travelled and Miles per Gallon for
                                                > fuel
                                                > > usage etc.
                                                > >
                                                > > Having said that if I am measureing something small I would use cm or mm.
                                                > A
                                                > > person though would be measure in Ft and Inches.
                                                > >
                                                > > We're a really mixed up country on meansurement units. Officially beer is
                                                > > now served in litres, but most people still ask for a pint in the a pub.
                                                > >
                                                > > Rosie
                                                > >
                                                > > 2008/6/2 sherman levine <slevine@... <slevine%40speakeasy.net>
                                                > >:
                                                > >
                                                > >> Don't you guys say "kilometrage", or something like that?
                                                > >> Sherm
                                                > >>
                                                > >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                > >> From: "Rosie Coller" <RosieC.eDev@...<RosieC.eDev%40Googlemail.com>
                                                > <RosieC.eDev%40Googlemail.com>
                                                > >> To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com> <magicu-l%
                                                > 40yahoogroups.com>>
                                                > >> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:04 PM
                                                > >> Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with
                                                > V10?
                                                > >>
                                                > >>> All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern.
                                                > >> Now
                                                > >>> I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>> But as always... your millage may vary.
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>> Rosie
                                                > >>>
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Brookes, Alan
                                                Thanks for the tip, Andy. Sadly even Google couldn t find a calculator for furlongs/gill (in the UK no-one can afford to buy as much as 1 gallon of fuel) Alan
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jun 3, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Thanks for the tip, Andy.
                                                  Sadly even Google couldn't find a calculator for furlongs/gill (in the UK
                                                  no-one can afford to buy as much as 1 gallon of fuel)



                                                  Alan


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: Andy Jerison [mailto:ajerison@...]
                                                  Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 7:06 PM
                                                  To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: What version control package to use with V10?

                                                  Just use Google:

                                                  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GZAZ%2CGZAZ%3A2007-31%2CGZAZ
                                                  %3Aen&q=500+furlongs%2Fimperial+gal+in+km%2Fl&btnG=Search

                                                  Andy

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:magicu-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                  Of Alan Brookes
                                                  Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 1:16 PM
                                                  To: magicu-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?

                                                  Only in the posh areas north of Watford, Rosie.
                                                  Here in the deep south (well, Essex, anyway) we still use rods, chains and
                                                  furlongs.

                                                  Makes fuel consumption _really_ difficult to calculate.

                                                  :-)


                                                  Best Regards

                                                  Alan


                                                  Rosie Coller wrote:
                                                  > Not in the UK. It's still miles in the UK.
                                                  >
                                                  > UK is stange on this. We're suposadly on the metric system like Europe but
                                                  > there are lots of things which are not.
                                                  >
                                                  > Speeds Limits on the roads and the speedo on cars is in Mile Per Hour and
                                                  > most people use Miles for distance travelled and Miles per Gallon for fuel
                                                  > usage etc.
                                                  >
                                                  > Having said that if I am measureing something small I would use cm or mm.
                                                  A
                                                  > person though would be measure in Ft and Inches.
                                                  >
                                                  > We're a really mixed up country on meansurement units. Officially beer is
                                                  > now served in litres, but most people still ask for a pint in the a pub.
                                                  >
                                                  > Rosie
                                                  >
                                                  > 2008/6/2 sherman levine <slevine@...>:
                                                  >
                                                  >> Don't you guys say "kilometrage", or something like that?
                                                  >> Sherm
                                                  >>
                                                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                  >> From: "Rosie Coller"
                                                  <RosieC.eDev@...<RosieC.eDev%40Googlemail.com>
                                                  >> To: <magicu-l@yahoogroups.com <magicu-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                                  >> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:04 PM
                                                  >> Subject: Re: [magicu-l] Re: What version control package to use with V10?
                                                  >>
                                                  >>> All I can say is that before I used it I had exactly the same concern.
                                                  >> Now
                                                  >>> I'm using it I'm happy with it and prefer it to the old MCVS.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> But as always... your millage may vary.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> Rosie

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