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Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

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  • Rich Crook
    Umm... I think you ve got that backwards. 0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a mm, or .00003937 (just shy of 4 ten
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
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      Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
      0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
      mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
      I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"

      = Rich =

      >Art,
      >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your first and
      >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean 0.0001"?
      >
      >Andrey


      >Hi Andy:
      >
      >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on my
      >system.
      >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
      >
      >Thanks,
      >Art
      >www.artofcnc.ca
    • Mark Vaughan
      The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is play in your system. Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the direction of
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is play in your
        system.

        Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the direction of
        cutting force, whether you are climb or conventional milling.

        Fine on a lathe where load is normally in the same direction.



        Because mach offers backlash compensation many diy users will think it's OK
        to build a machine with half an inch of backlash and mach will take care of
        it.

        We need to all be very careful what we understand can and cannot be done
        with Art's backlash system.

        There is no substitute here for tight screws. (No pun intended).



        Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

        Managing Director

        Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

        Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

        Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
        Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

        _____

        From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of Rich Crook
        Sent: 01 March 2007 08:08
        To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)



        Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
        0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
        mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
        I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"

        = Rich =

        >Art,
        >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your first and
        >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean 0.0001"?
        >
        >Andrey

        >Hi Andy:
        >
        >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on my
        >system.
        >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
        >
        >Thanks,
        >Art
        >www.artofcnc.ca





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • art
        Sorry guys, I actually meant .001 mm. or .00003937 Its a 1micron scale. Thanks, Art www.artofcnc.ca Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupport.com Users
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
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          Sorry guys, I actually meant .001 mm. or .00003937"

          Its a 1micron scale.

          Thanks,
          Art
          www.artofcnc.ca

          Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupport.com
          Users Map: http://www.frappr.com/machsupport
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Rich Crook
          To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 4:07 AM
          Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)


          Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
          0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
          mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
          I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"

          = Rich =

          >Art,
          >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your first and
          >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean 0.0001"?
          >
          >Andrey

          >Hi Andy:
          >
          >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on my
          >system.
          >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
          >
          >Thanks,
          >Art
          >www.artofcnc.ca






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • art
          Mark: Too true. My problem was one of what people expect. Backlash is one of the hardest things to do right. Its taken me 3 years to get to that spot in the
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Mark:

            Too true. My problem was one of what people expect. Backlash is one of the hardest things to do right. Its taken me 3 years to get to that spot in the driver.
            Its important to me to keep it in the driver, I dont want comp in the application, too much complexity.. The old backlash caused great problems for some, and some expect seamless operation with backlash.. THisis about as close as I can get...so far anyway..

            Thanks,
            Art
            www.artofcnc.ca

            Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupport.com
            Users Map: http://www.frappr.com/machsupport
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Mark Vaughan
            To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:17 AM
            Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)


            The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is play in your
            system.

            Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the direction of
            cutting force, whether you are climb or conventional milling.

            Fine on a lathe where load is normally in the same direction.

            Because mach offers backlash compensation many diy users will think it's OK
            to build a machine with half an inch of backlash and mach will take care of
            it.

            We need to all be very careful what we understand can and cannot be done
            with Art's backlash system.

            There is no substitute here for tight screws. (No pun intended).

            Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

            Managing Director

            Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

            Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

            Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
            Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

            _____

            From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of Rich Crook
            Sent: 01 March 2007 08:08
            To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

            Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
            0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
            mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
            I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"

            = Rich =

            >Art,
            >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your first and
            >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean 0.0001"?
            >
            >Andrey

            >Hi Andy:
            >
            >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on my
            >system.
            >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
            >
            >Thanks,
            >Art
            >www.artofcnc.ca

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Paul W. Chamberlain
            I think backlash is probably a moot point for machines that have axis drive components designed to allow zero mechanical backlash... just as the user that only
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I think backlash is probably a moot point for machines that have axis
              drive components designed to allow zero mechanical backlash... just
              as the user that only has a parallel port, keyboard and mouse can
              ignore the issues with more elaborate I/O boards and controllers.

              Since Art has thankfully chosen to provide a solution for virtually
              every conceivable CNC driven contraption, there are some machines
              that cannot acheive zero mechanical backlash without complications or
              damage to the axis drive components.

              Many desktop/benchtop machines have factory axis drive leadscrews
              that are conventional thread, or maybe Acme thread, running in a
              metal nut... some of those without backlash adjustment. Aproaching
              <0.001" backlash may cause binding with the slightest variation in
              the leadscrew thread. Also, increased wear of the nut at those
              tolerances compounds the backlash issue run-to-run.

              Most desktop machine manufacturers reccomend 0.002" to 0.005"
              backlash as acceptable for their machines... originally designed for
              manual operation. Upgrading to ballscrews or comparable may be
              difficult due to available space and/or the budget of a hobby class
              operator. Then there are those that would rather make parts... not
              try to build/modify the ultimate machine.

              A classic example I can think of where backlash error shows up is a
              3/8" circular pocket for a press-in bushing, without changing to a
              reamer or boring head. With backlash, there will be steps at the 90
              degree transitions of the arcs. A 1/2" - 1 sec. backlash comp does
              little for this example. I realize the large format gantry routers
              are in a whole different realm where distance and speed are
              concerned. My cudos to Art for trying so hard to allow all of us
              getting what we want... just hope his sanity holds out until we get
              there. ;-)

              For what it's worth... when I was running MPS2003 (DOS) on my Taig,
              backlash comp worked for my circular pocket example. I'm guessing
              that much simpler program didn't even try to address accel/decel
              issues... probably not even aware of servo/encoder systems.

              Paul, Central OR

              *****

              --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Vaughan" <mark@...> wrote:
              >
              > The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is play
              in your
              > system.
              >
              > Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the
              direction of
              > cutting force, whether you are climb or conventional milling.
              >
              > Fine on a lathe where load is normally in the same direction.
              >
              >
              >
              > Because mach offers backlash compensation many diy users will think
              it's OK
              > to build a machine with half an inch of backlash and mach will take
              care of
              > it.
              >
              > We need to all be very careful what we understand can and cannot be
              done
              > with Art's backlash system.
              >
              > There is no substitute here for tight screws. (No pun intended).
              >
              >
              >
              > Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU
              >
              > Managing Director
              >
              > Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068
              >
              > Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351
              >
              > Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
              > Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
              > On Behalf Of Rich Crook
              > Sent: 01 March 2007 08:08
              > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
              >
              >
              >
              > Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
              > 0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
              > mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
              > I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"
              >
              > = Rich =
              >
              > >Art,
              > >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your
              first and
              > >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean
              0.0001"?
              > >
              > >Andrey
              >
              > >Hi Andy:
              > >
              > >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on
              my
              > >system.
              > >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
              > >
              > >Thanks,
              > >Art
              > >www.artofcnc.ca
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • art
              Hi Paul: Thanks fo rthe comments. All true.. Its all a high wire balancing act in the end.. Thanks, Art www.artofcnc.ca Videos And Support Forums
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Paul:

                Thanks fo rthe comments. All true.. Its all a high wire balancing act in the end..

                Thanks,
                Art
                www.artofcnc.ca

                Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupport.com
                Users Map: http://www.frappr.com/machsupport
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Paul W. Chamberlain
                To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:44 AM
                Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)


                I think backlash is probably a moot point for machines that have axis
                drive components designed to allow zero mechanical backlash... just
                as the user that only has a parallel port, keyboard and mouse can
                ignore the issues with more elaborate I/O boards and controllers.

                Since Art has thankfully chosen to provide a solution for virtually
                every conceivable CNC driven contraption, there are some machines
                that cannot acheive zero mechanical backlash without complications or
                damage to the axis drive components.

                Many desktop/benchtop machines have factory axis drive leadscrews
                that are conventional thread, or maybe Acme thread, running in a
                metal nut... some of those without backlash adjustment. Aproaching
                <0.001" backlash may cause binding with the slightest variation in
                the leadscrew thread. Also, increased wear of the nut at those
                tolerances compounds the backlash issue run-to-run.

                Most desktop machine manufacturers reccomend 0.002" to 0.005"
                backlash as acceptable for their machines... originally designed for
                manual operation. Upgrading to ballscrews or comparable may be
                difficult due to available space and/or the budget of a hobby class
                operator. Then there are those that would rather make parts... not
                try to build/modify the ultimate machine.

                A classic example I can think of where backlash error shows up is a
                3/8" circular pocket for a press-in bushing, without changing to a
                reamer or boring head. With backlash, there will be steps at the 90
                degree transitions of the arcs. A 1/2" - 1 sec. backlash comp does
                little for this example. I realize the large format gantry routers
                are in a whole different realm where distance and speed are
                concerned. My cudos to Art for trying so hard to allow all of us
                getting what we want... just hope his sanity holds out until we get
                there. ;-)

                For what it's worth... when I was running MPS2003 (DOS) on my Taig,
                backlash comp worked for my circular pocket example. I'm guessing
                that much simpler program didn't even try to address accel/decel
                issues... probably not even aware of servo/encoder systems.

                Paul, Central OR

                *****

                --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Vaughan" <mark@...> wrote:
                >
                > The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is play
                in your
                > system.
                >
                > Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the
                direction of
                > cutting force, whether you are climb or conventional milling.
                >
                > Fine on a lathe where load is normally in the same direction.
                >
                >
                >
                > Because mach offers backlash compensation many diy users will think
                it's OK
                > to build a machine with half an inch of backlash and mach will take
                care of
                > it.
                >
                > We need to all be very careful what we understand can and cannot be
                done
                > with Art's backlash system.
                >
                > There is no substitute here for tight screws. (No pun intended).
                >
                >
                >
                > Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU
                >
                > Managing Director
                >
                > Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068
                >
                > Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351
                >
                > Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                > Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
                > On Behalf Of Rich Crook
                > Sent: 01 March 2007 08:08
                > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                >
                >
                >
                > Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
                > 0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
                > mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
                > I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"
                >
                > = Rich =
                >
                > >Art,
                > >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your
                first and
                > >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean
                0.0001"?
                > >
                > >Andrey
                >
                > >Hi Andy:
                > >
                > >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on
                my
                > >system.
                > >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
                > >
                > >Thanks,
                > >Art
                > >www.artofcnc.ca
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mark Vaughan
                Hi Art Just thinking aloud for a minute, and this may not be viable. For backlash to work correctly it would depend on whether you are conventional or climb
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Art

                  Just thinking aloud for a minute, and this may not be viable.

                  For backlash to work correctly it would depend on whether you are
                  conventional or climb milling, this would set whether backlash compensation
                  is required at the start of a cut, or at the end.

                  It's a bit like tool offset compensation and really needs commanding within
                  the Gcode, as you said this starts to make it complex.



                  However you are writing a tool, lazy cam, that might have much of the data
                  available to do this. Either by adjusting the parameters in the right place
                  to do the compensation itself, or since you set climb or conventional
                  milling, then you could also set a Gcode command to set the backlash on in
                  the right place.



                  The other method I suppose is just recommend conventional milling if
                  compensation is switched on.



                  Just a thought anyhow.

                  Regs Mark



                  Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

                  Managing Director

                  Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

                  Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

                  Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                  Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

                  _____

                  From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of art
                  Sent: 01 March 2007 13:14
                  To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)



                  Mark:

                  Too true. My problem was one of what people expect. Backlash is one of the
                  hardest things to do right. Its taken me 3 years to get to that spot in the
                  driver.
                  Its important to me to keep it in the driver, I dont want comp in the
                  application, too much complexity.. The old backlash caused great problems
                  for some, and some expect seamless operation with backlash.. THisis about as
                  close as I can get...so far anyway..

                  Thanks,
                  Art
                  www.artofcnc.ca

                  Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupp <http://www.machsupport.com>
                  ort.com
                  Users Map: http://www.frappr <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport>
                  com/machsupport
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Mark Vaughan
                  To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:17 AM
                  Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

                  The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is play in your
                  system.

                  Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the direction of
                  cutting force, whether you are climb or conventional milling.

                  Fine on a lathe where load is normally in the same direction.

                  Because mach offers backlash compensation many diy users will think it's OK
                  to build a machine with half an inch of backlash and mach will take care of
                  it.

                  We need to all be very careful what we understand can and cannot be done
                  with Art's backlash system.

                  There is no substitute here for tight screws. (No pun intended).

                  Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

                  Managing Director

                  Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

                  Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

                  Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                  Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

                  _____

                  From: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@
                  <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Rich Crook
                  Sent: 01 March 2007 08:08
                  To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

                  Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
                  0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
                  mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
                  I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"

                  = Rich =

                  >Art,
                  >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your first and
                  >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean 0.0001"?
                  >
                  >Andrey

                  >Hi Andy:
                  >
                  >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on my
                  >system.
                  >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
                  >
                  >Thanks,
                  >Art
                  >www.artofcnc.ca

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • art
                  Hi Mark: Hmm, I hadnt really though of any connection to climb milling.. Ill keep my eye on that and give it some thought. Originally, I had planned on making
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Mark:

                    Hmm, I hadnt really though of any connection to climb milling.. Ill keep my eye on that
                    and give it some thought. Originally, I had planned on making LCam do the backlash with true movements, but it really complicates arcs, as they become
                    parabolas, not a good thing..

                    Thanks,
                    Art
                    www.artofcnc.ca

                    Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupport.com
                    Users Map: http://www.frappr.com/machsupport
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Mark Vaughan
                    To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:32 PM
                    Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)


                    Hi Art

                    Just thinking aloud for a minute, and this may not be viable.

                    For backlash to work correctly it would depend on whether you are
                    conventional or climb milling, this would set whether backlash compensation
                    is required at the start of a cut, or at the end.

                    It's a bit like tool offset compensation and really needs commanding within
                    the Gcode, as you said this starts to make it complex.

                    However you are writing a tool, lazy cam, that might have much of the data
                    available to do this. Either by adjusting the parameters in the right place
                    to do the compensation itself, or since you set climb or conventional
                    milling, then you could also set a Gcode command to set the backlash on in
                    the right place.

                    The other method I suppose is just recommend conventional milling if
                    compensation is switched on.

                    Just a thought anyhow.

                    Regs Mark

                    Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

                    Managing Director

                    Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

                    Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

                    Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                    Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

                    _____

                    From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of art
                    Sent: 01 March 2007 13:14
                    To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

                    Mark:

                    Too true. My problem was one of what people expect. Backlash is one of the
                    hardest things to do right. Its taken me 3 years to get to that spot in the
                    driver.
                    Its important to me to keep it in the driver, I dont want comp in the
                    application, too much complexity.. The old backlash caused great problems
                    for some, and some expect seamless operation with backlash.. THisis about as
                    close as I can get...so far anyway..

                    Thanks,
                    Art
                    www.artofcnc.ca

                    Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupp <http://www.machsupport.com>
                    ort.com
                    Users Map: http://www.frappr <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport>
                    com/machsupport
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Mark Vaughan
                    To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:17 AM
                    Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

                    The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is play in your
                    system.

                    Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the direction of
                    cutting force, whether you are climb or conventional milling.

                    Fine on a lathe where load is normally in the same direction.

                    Because mach offers backlash compensation many diy users will think it's OK
                    to build a machine with half an inch of backlash and mach will take care of
                    it.

                    We need to all be very careful what we understand can and cannot be done
                    with Art's backlash system.

                    There is no substitute here for tight screws. (No pun intended).

                    Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

                    Managing Director

                    Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

                    Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

                    Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                    Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

                    _____

                    From: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@
                    <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Rich Crook
                    Sent: 01 March 2007 08:08
                    To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

                    Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
                    0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
                    mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
                    I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"

                    = Rich =

                    >Art,
                    >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your first and
                    >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean 0.0001"?
                    >
                    >Andrey

                    >Hi Andy:
                    >
                    >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on my
                    >system.
                    >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
                    >
                    >Thanks,
                    >Art
                    >www.artofcnc.ca

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mark Vaughan
                    I think about it from my manual mill which has loads of backlash. Conventional mill and you take up the slack before you make contact. Climb mill and I have to
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I think about it from my manual mill which has loads of backlash.

                      Conventional mill and you take up the slack before you make contact.

                      Climb mill and I have to tighten the jibs and feed reel slow to stop the
                      cutter sucking the workpiece in with a grunch as it snaps up the backlash.

                      All this applies to backlash compensation, you won't be able to stop the
                      cutter pulling the workpiece in on climb milling, but it will effect where
                      the cut ends.

                      May just be an issue that compensation cannot be used when climb milling.



                      Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

                      Managing Director

                      Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

                      Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

                      Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                      Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

                      _____

                      From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of art
                      Sent: 01 March 2007 20:06
                      To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)



                      Hi Mark:

                      Hmm, I hadnt really though of any connection to climb milling.. Ill keep my
                      eye on that
                      and give it some thought. Originally, I had planned on making LCam do the
                      backlash with true movements, but it really complicates arcs, as they become

                      parabolas, not a good thing..

                      Thanks,
                      Art
                      www.artofcnc.ca

                      Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupp <http://www.machsupport.com>
                      ort.com
                      Users Map: http://www.frappr <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport>
                      com/machsupport
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Mark Vaughan
                      To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:32 PM
                      Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

                      Hi Art

                      Just thinking aloud for a minute, and this may not be viable.

                      For backlash to work correctly it would depend on whether you are
                      conventional or climb milling, this would set whether backlash compensation
                      is required at the start of a cut, or at the end.

                      It's a bit like tool offset compensation and really needs commanding within
                      the Gcode, as you said this starts to make it complex.

                      However you are writing a tool, lazy cam, that might have much of the data
                      available to do this. Either by adjusting the parameters in the right place
                      to do the compensation itself, or since you set climb or conventional
                      milling, then you could also set a Gcode command to set the backlash on in
                      the right place.

                      The other method I suppose is just recommend conventional milling if
                      compensation is switched on.

                      Just a thought anyhow.

                      Regs Mark

                      Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

                      Managing Director

                      Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

                      Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

                      Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                      Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

                      _____

                      From: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@
                      <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of art
                      Sent: 01 March 2007 13:14
                      To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

                      Mark:

                      Too true. My problem was one of what people expect. Backlash is one of the
                      hardest things to do right. Its taken me 3 years to get to that spot in the
                      driver.
                      Its important to me to keep it in the driver, I dont want comp in the
                      application, too much complexity.. The old backlash caused great problems
                      for some, and some expect seamless operation with backlash.. THisis about as
                      close as I can get...so far anyway..

                      Thanks,
                      Art
                      www.artofcnc.ca

                      Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupp <http://www.machsupp
                      <http://www.machsupport.com> ort.com>
                      ort.com
                      Users Map: http://www.frappr <http://www.frappr
                      <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport> com/machsupport>
                      com/machsupport
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Mark Vaughan
                      To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:17 AM
                      Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

                      The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is play in your
                      system.

                      Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the direction of
                      cutting force, whether you are climb or conventional milling.

                      Fine on a lathe where load is normally in the same direction.

                      Because mach offers backlash compensation many diy users will think it's OK
                      to build a machine with half an inch of backlash and mach will take care of
                      it.

                      We need to all be very careful what we understand can and cannot be done
                      with Art's backlash system.

                      There is no substitute here for tight screws. (No pun intended).

                      Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

                      Managing Director

                      Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

                      Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

                      Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                      Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

                      _____

                      From: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@
                      <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Rich Crook
                      Sent: 01 March 2007 08:08
                      To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)

                      Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
                      0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
                      mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
                      I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"

                      = Rich =

                      >Art,
                      >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your first and
                      >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean 0.0001"?
                      >
                      >Andrey

                      >Hi Andy:
                      >
                      >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on my
                      >system.
                      >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
                      >
                      >Thanks,
                      >Art
                      >www.artofcnc.ca

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Lester Caine
                      ... In most cases where we want backlash comp on with the Taig it s because you are using engraving cutters, so there is no push or pull to worry about. You
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mark Vaughan wrote:
                        > I think about it from my manual mill which has loads of backlash.
                        >
                        > Conventional mill and you take up the slack before you make contact.
                        >
                        > Climb mill and I have to tighten the jibs and feed reel slow to stop the
                        > cutter sucking the workpiece in with a grunch as it snaps up the backlash.
                        >
                        > All this applies to backlash compensation, you won't be able to stop the
                        > cutter pulling the workpiece in on climb milling, but it will effect where
                        > the cut ends.
                        >
                        > May just be an issue that compensation cannot be used when climb milling.

                        In most cases where we want backlash comp on with the Taig it's because
                        you are using engraving cutters, so there is no push or pull to worry
                        about. You just need the circles to be circular :)

                        --
                        Lester Caine - G8HFL
                        -----------------------------
                        L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk
                        Model Engineers Digital Workshop -
                        http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/
                        Treasurer - Firebird Foundation Inc. - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
                      • Mark Vaughan
                        Yes that s another area I hadn t even thought about Les. Conventional mill application would apply nicely to that. Really thinking about this if you stick to
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yes that's another area I hadn't even thought about Les.

                          Conventional mill application would apply nicely to that.

                          Really thinking about this if you stick to conventional milling you will
                          always be OK with Art's present backlash method.

                          If you climb mill, you will always get problems if you have backlash in the
                          system.



                          Regs



                          Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU

                          Managing Director

                          Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068

                          Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351

                          Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                          Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288

                          _____

                          From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
                          On Behalf Of Lester Caine
                          Sent: 01 March 2007 22:02
                          To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)



                          Mark Vaughan wrote:
                          > I think about it from my manual mill which has loads of backlash.
                          >
                          > Conventional mill and you take up the slack before you make contact.
                          >
                          > Climb mill and I have to tighten the jibs and feed reel slow to stop the
                          > cutter sucking the workpiece in with a grunch as it snaps up the backlash.
                          >
                          > All this applies to backlash compensation, you won't be able to stop the
                          > cutter pulling the workpiece in on climb milling, but it will effect where
                          > the cut ends.
                          >
                          > May just be an issue that compensation cannot be used when climb milling.

                          In most cases where we want backlash comp on with the Taig it's because
                          you are using engraving cutters, so there is no push or pull to worry
                          about. You just need the circles to be circular :)

                          --
                          Lester Caine - G8HFL
                          -----------------------------
                          L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home. <http://home.lsces.co.uk>
                          lsces.co.uk
                          Model Engineers Digital Workshop -
                          http://home. <http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/>
                          lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/
                          Treasurer - Firebird Foundation Inc. - http://www.firebird
                          <http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php> sql.org/index.php





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dave
                          I always thought that climb milling was to be reserved for hogging with rough milling cutters and such. And that conventional milling was the best approach
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I always thought that climb milling was to be reserved for hogging with
                            rough milling cutters and such. And that conventional milling was the
                            best approach for a smooth finish. If that is the case, then who would
                            really care about backlash compensation when climb milling since it's a
                            roughing operation anyway unless the machine had a tremendous amount of
                            backlash?
                            Am I wrong about that?
                            Dave

                            Mark Vaughan wrote:

                            > I think about it from my manual mill which has loads of backlash.
                            >
                            > Conventional mill and you take up the slack before you make contact.
                            >
                            > Climb mill and I have to tighten the jibs and feed reel slow to stop the
                            > cutter sucking the workpiece in with a grunch as it snaps up the backlash.
                            >
                            > All this applies to backlash compensation, you won't be able to stop the
                            > cutter pulling the workpiece in on climb milling, but it will effect where
                            > the cut ends.
                            >
                            > May just be an issue that compensation cannot be used when climb milling.
                            >
                            > Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU
                            >
                            > Managing Director
                            >
                            > Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068
                            >
                            > Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351
                            >
                            > Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                            > Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>]
                            > On Behalf Of art
                            > Sent: 01 March 2007 20:06
                            > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                            >
                            > Hi Mark:
                            >
                            > Hmm, I hadnt really though of any connection to climb milling.. Ill
                            > keep my
                            > eye on that
                            > and give it some thought. Originally, I had planned on making LCam do the
                            > backlash with true movements, but it really complicates arcs, as they
                            > become
                            >
                            > parabolas, not a good thing..
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            > Art
                            > www.artofcnc.ca
                            >
                            > Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupp
                            > <http://www.machsupport.com <http://www.machsupport.com>>
                            > ort.com
                            > Users Map: http://www.frappr <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport
                            > <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport>>
                            > com/machsupport
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Mark Vaughan
                            > To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:32 PM
                            > Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                            >
                            > Hi Art
                            >
                            > Just thinking aloud for a minute, and this may not be viable.
                            >
                            > For backlash to work correctly it would depend on whether you are
                            > conventional or climb milling, this would set whether backlash
                            > compensation
                            > is required at the start of a cut, or at the end.
                            >
                            > It's a bit like tool offset compensation and really needs commanding
                            > within
                            > the Gcode, as you said this starts to make it complex.
                            >
                            > However you are writing a tool, lazy cam, that might have much of the data
                            > available to do this. Either by adjusting the parameters in the right
                            > place
                            > to do the compensation itself, or since you set climb or conventional
                            > milling, then you could also set a Gcode command to set the backlash on in
                            > the right place.
                            >
                            > The other method I suppose is just recommend conventional milling if
                            > compensation is switched on.
                            >
                            > Just a thought anyhow.
                            >
                            > Regs Mark
                            >
                            > Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU
                            >
                            > Managing Director
                            >
                            > Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068
                            >
                            > Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351
                            >
                            > Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                            > Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@
                            > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                            > On Behalf Of art
                            > Sent: 01 March 2007 13:14
                            > To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                            >
                            > Mark:
                            >
                            > Too true. My problem was one of what people expect. Backlash is one of the
                            > hardest things to do right. Its taken me 3 years to get to that spot
                            > in the
                            > driver.
                            > Its important to me to keep it in the driver, I dont want comp in the
                            > application, too much complexity.. The old backlash caused great problems
                            > for some, and some expect seamless operation with backlash.. THisis
                            > about as
                            > close as I can get...so far anyway..
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            > Art
                            > www.artofcnc.ca
                            >
                            > Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupp <http://www.machsupp
                            > <http://www.machsupport.com <http://www.machsupport.com>> ort.com>
                            > ort.com
                            > Users Map: http://www.frappr <http://www.frappr
                            > <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport
                            > <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport>> com/machsupport>
                            > com/machsupport
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Mark Vaughan
                            > To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:17 AM
                            > Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                            >
                            > The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is play in
                            > your
                            > system.
                            >
                            > Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the direction of
                            > cutting force, whether you are climb or conventional milling.
                            >
                            > Fine on a lathe where load is normally in the same direction.
                            >
                            > Because mach offers backlash compensation many diy users will think
                            > it's OK
                            > to build a machine with half an inch of backlash and mach will take
                            > care of
                            > it.
                            >
                            > We need to all be very careful what we understand can and cannot be done
                            > with Art's backlash system.
                            >
                            > There is no substitute here for tight screws. (No pun intended).
                            >
                            > Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU
                            >
                            > Managing Director
                            >
                            > Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068
                            >
                            > Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351
                            >
                            > Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH, UK.
                            > Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@
                            > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                            > On Behalf Of Rich Crook
                            > Sent: 01 March 2007 08:08
                            > To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                            >
                            > Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
                            > 0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of a
                            > mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
                            > I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"
                            >
                            > = Rich =
                            >
                            > >Art,
                            > >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn your
                            > first and
                            > >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean 0.0001"?
                            > >
                            > >Andrey
                            >
                            > >Hi Andy:
                            > >
                            > >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm on my
                            > >system.
                            > >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
                            > >
                            > >Thanks,
                            > >Art
                            > >www.artofcnc.ca
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                          • Paul W. Chamberlain
                            Actually, the reverse is true. Conventional milling (cutting chips away from the material) is used for removing bulk material. Climb milling (cutting chips
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 1, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Actually, the reverse is true.

                              Conventional milling (cutting chips away from the material) is used
                              for removing bulk material.

                              Climb milling (cutting chips towards material, and the cutter forces
                              tend to "climb" up on the material) gives a smoother finish.

                              On my Taig, I only use climb milling for 0.005" or less material
                              removal. Back when I was running FADAL Workcenters, most of the
                              programs cutting aluminum were climb milling throughout the run. But
                              then, we also had some spot facing inside cast aluminum housings
                              using endmills held in 12" extensions... no perceptable chatter.

                              I have a compressed air blow gun in my enclosure, and clear the chips
                              before the finish pass to reduce re-cutting chips for the best
                              finish. I use a mister, so chips stick around. Flood coolant would
                              keep the chips clear.

                              Paul, Central OR

                              *****

                              --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dave <dc9@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I always thought that climb milling was to be reserved for hogging
                              with
                              > rough milling cutters and such. And that conventional milling was
                              the
                              > best approach for a smooth finish. If that is the case, then who
                              would
                              > really care about backlash compensation when climb milling since
                              it's a
                              > roughing operation anyway unless the machine had a tremendous
                              amount of
                              > backlash?
                              > Am I wrong about that?
                              > Dave
                              >
                              > Mark Vaughan wrote:
                              >
                              > > I think about it from my manual mill which has loads of backlash.
                              > >
                              > > Conventional mill and you take up the slack before you make
                              contact.
                              > >
                              > > Climb mill and I have to tighten the jibs and feed reel slow to
                              stop the
                              > > cutter sucking the workpiece in with a grunch as it snaps up the
                              backlash.
                              > >
                              > > All this applies to backlash compensation, you won't be able to
                              stop the
                              > > cutter pulling the workpiece in on climb milling, but it will
                              effect where
                              > > the cut ends.
                              > >
                              > > May just be an issue that compensation cannot be used when climb
                              milling.
                              > >
                              > > Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU
                              > >
                              > > Managing Director
                              > >
                              > > Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068
                              > >
                              > > Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351
                              > >
                              > > Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH,
                              UK.
                              > > Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288
                              > >
                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>]
                              > > On Behalf Of art
                              > > Sent: 01 March 2007 20:06
                              > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%
                              40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                              > >
                              > > Hi Mark:
                              > >
                              > > Hmm, I hadnt really though of any connection to climb milling..
                              Ill
                              > > keep my
                              > > eye on that
                              > > and give it some thought. Originally, I had planned on making
                              LCam do the
                              > > backlash with true movements, but it really complicates arcs, as
                              they
                              > > become
                              > >
                              > > parabolas, not a good thing..
                              > >
                              > > Thanks,
                              > > Art
                              > > www.artofcnc.ca
                              > >
                              > > Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupp
                              > > <http://www.machsupport.com <http://www.machsupport.com>>
                              > > ort.com
                              > > Users Map: http://www.frappr <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport
                              > > <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport>>
                              > > com/machsupport
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: Mark Vaughan
                              > > To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:32 PM
                              > > Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                              > >
                              > > Hi Art
                              > >
                              > > Just thinking aloud for a minute, and this may not be viable.
                              > >
                              > > For backlash to work correctly it would depend on whether you are
                              > > conventional or climb milling, this would set whether backlash
                              > > compensation
                              > > is required at the start of a cut, or at the end.
                              > >
                              > > It's a bit like tool offset compensation and really needs
                              commanding
                              > > within
                              > > the Gcode, as you said this starts to make it complex.
                              > >
                              > > However you are writing a tool, lazy cam, that might have much of
                              the data
                              > > available to do this. Either by adjusting the parameters in the
                              right
                              > > place
                              > > to do the compensation itself, or since you set climb or
                              conventional
                              > > milling, then you could also set a Gcode command to set the
                              backlash on in
                              > > the right place.
                              > >
                              > > The other method I suppose is just recommend conventional milling
                              if
                              > > compensation is switched on.
                              > >
                              > > Just a thought anyhow.
                              > >
                              > > Regs Mark
                              > >
                              > > Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU
                              > >
                              > > Managing Director
                              > >
                              > > Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068
                              > >
                              > > Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351
                              > >
                              > > Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH,
                              UK.
                              > > Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288
                              > >
                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > From: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@
                              > > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                              > > On Behalf Of art
                              > > Sent: 01 March 2007 13:14
                              > > To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                              > >
                              > > Mark:
                              > >
                              > > Too true. My problem was one of what people expect. Backlash is
                              one of the
                              > > hardest things to do right. Its taken me 3 years to get to that
                              spot
                              > > in the
                              > > driver.
                              > > Its important to me to keep it in the driver, I dont want comp in
                              the
                              > > application, too much complexity.. The old backlash caused great
                              problems
                              > > for some, and some expect seamless operation with backlash..
                              THisis
                              > > about as
                              > > close as I can get...so far anyway..
                              > >
                              > > Thanks,
                              > > Art
                              > > www.artofcnc.ca
                              > >
                              > > Videos And Support Forums http://www.machsupp <http://www.machsupp
                              > > <http://www.machsupport.com <http://www.machsupport.com>> ort.com>
                              > > ort.com
                              > > Users Map: http://www.frappr <http://www.frappr
                              > > <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport
                              > > <http://www.frappr.com/machsupport>> com/machsupport>
                              > > com/machsupport
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: Mark Vaughan
                              > > To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:17 AM
                              > > Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                              > >
                              > > The trouble with all this backlash compensation is backlash is
                              play in
                              > > your
                              > > system.
                              > >
                              > > Whether compensation is, or is not required depends on the
                              direction of
                              > > cutting force, whether you are climb or conventional milling.
                              > >
                              > > Fine on a lathe where load is normally in the same direction.
                              > >
                              > > Because mach offers backlash compensation many diy users will
                              think
                              > > it's OK
                              > > to build a machine with half an inch of backlash and mach will
                              take
                              > > care of
                              > > it.
                              > >
                              > > We need to all be very careful what we understand can and cannot
                              be done
                              > > with Art's backlash system.
                              > >
                              > > There is no substitute here for tight screws. (No pun intended).
                              > >
                              > > Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D. B.Eng. M0VAU
                              > >
                              > > Managing Director
                              > >
                              > > Vaughan Industries Ltd, reg in UK no 2561068
                              > >
                              > > Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351
                              > >
                              > > Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH,
                              UK.
                              > > Phone/Fax 44 1872 561288
                              > >
                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > From: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@
                              > > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                              > > On Behalf Of Rich Crook
                              > > Sent: 01 March 2007 08:08
                              > > To: mach1mach2cnc@ <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [mach1mach2cnc] BackLash.. Finally.!! :)
                              > >
                              > > Umm... I think you've got that backwards.
                              > > 0.0001 mm is *one tenth* of a micron! A micron is a thousandth of
                              a
                              > > mm, or .00003937" (just shy of 4 ten thousandths).
                              > > I'm pretty sure he meant .0001"
                              > >
                              > > = Rich =
                              > >
                              > > >Art,
                              > > >Holy shit, 0.0001mm is about 4 microns! Did you have to pawn
                              your
                              > > first and
                              > > >second born for your glass scales? Are you sure you don't mean
                              0.0001"?
                              > > >
                              > > >Andrey
                              > >
                              > > >Hi Andy:
                              > > >
                              > > >According to my glass scales, the backlash is exact to .0001mm
                              on my
                              > > >system.
                              > > >Thats about as exact as my system can handle...
                              > > >
                              > > >Thanks,
                              > > >Art
                              > > >www.artofcnc.ca
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
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