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RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Would like some info and help

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  • Tony Smith
    ... grant ... And you got Kia to replace VW, but nuff said about that. ... DraftSight as ... but can t ... used ... never ... forward ... you. But ... If you
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
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      > Behind only the tool and die and machine maintenance dept. After the
      grant
      > time expired VW closed up shop and moved to Mexico. Remember what Ross
      > Perro said about a "Giant Sucking Sound" with the passage of NAFTA.
      > Nuff said about that.

      And you got Kia to replace VW, but nuff said about that.

      > Have tried several CAD programs. At this point I'm leaning toward
      DraftSight as
      > it's free and seems easier for me to get a grip on. Have tried Sketchup
      but can't
      > seem to get the 3D thing down yet. Back in the late 80's early 90's I
      used
      > AutoSketch a lot while teaching. Back then it was still a DOS program.
      >
      > Can't quite get the XZ stuff straight in my head yet. As an old machinist
      never
      > thought much about the terminology, it was either moving the carriage
      forward
      > or backward and the cross slide in or out. My sound stupid to some of
      you. But
      > that's just the way old timers talked.


      If you remember back to your geometry days at school, you had the graph
      paper to draw on. The point 0,0 (called the origin) is at the bottom left
      of the page, the X direction is going up the page (away from you), and Y is
      left to right.

      If you start at 0,0 (X,Y) and move to 5,5, that is 5 up and 5 to the right,
      you'd draw a diagonal line (on a lathe you'd wind both handles at once). If
      you then move to 5,10 then you'd move 5 more places to the right (Y). Go
      back to 0,0 and you've just drawn a triangle.

      Then you add Z which is up & down.

      Now replace that single sheet of paper with a stack, say 10 sheets. X & Y
      are the same, but Z now refers to which sheet of paper you draw on. By
      convention machining calls 0 in the Z-axis the top of the material, so
      that's the one on top.

      Now 0,0,0 (X,Y,Z) is the bottom left corner (to you), but the top sheet.
      0,0,1 jumps down one sheet, and 0,0,5 goes to the 6th sheet down. (0 based
      stuff gets a bit confusing but actually doesn't matter much).

      For our first line if we went from 0,0,0 (X,Y,Z) to 5,5,5 then you'd have
      the same line but going down thru the sheets. In 3 dimensions drawing 0,0,0
      to 5,5,0 gives you the same line as the first time, draw on the top sheet as
      Z didn't move.

      The numbers I've been using have all been positive, negative numbers in this
      case would be drawing on the desk.

      On a CNC you have the same dimensions, so looking at a mill back & forth is
      X, left & right is Y, and up & down is Z. The spindle is always on the Z
      axis.

      A lathe is treated as a mill that has fallen over backwards with its column
      on the floor. Since the spindle is on Z, that makes the direction the
      saddle travels Z. The X direction is trying to move up & down, you can't do
      that on a lathe so X is eliminated, leaving you with Y to move the tool.

      So yes, X on a mill and Y on a lathe both move in the same direction
      (towards/away from you) but that's the logic behind it. If you flip the
      lathe on its end then you're back to a mill missing its X-axis.

      Not everyone builds machines with X,Y,Z like that; they'll occasionally flip
      x & Y, or put the origin at the other side of the machine or other weird
      things, but most machines are the same.

      Tony
    • Tony Smith
      ... never ... forward ... you. But ... Sigh. Ignore the last response, it ll only confuse you as I got X & Y mixed up. Hey, geometry class was a while back.
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
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        > Can't quite get the XZ stuff straight in my head yet. As an old machinist
        never
        > thought much about the terminology, it was either moving the carriage
        forward
        > or backward and the cross slide in or out. My sound stupid to some of
        you. But
        > that's just the way old timers talked.
        > HaHa.


        Sigh.

        Ignore the last response, it'll only confuse you as I got X & Y mixed up.
        Hey, geometry class was a while back. So after a bit of proofreading:


        If you remember back to your geometry days at school (better than I did,
        lol), you had the graph paper to draw on. The point 0,0 (called the origin)
        is at the bottom left of the page, and X is horizontal (left to right) and
        the Y direction is vertical up the page (forward/away from you).

        If you start at 0,0 (X,Y) and move to 5,5, that is 5 right and 5 up, you'd
        draw a diagonal line (on a lathe you'd wind both handles at once). If you
        then move to 10, 5 then you'd move 5 more places to the right (X). Go back
        to 0,0 and you've just drawn a triangle.

        Then you add Z which is up & down.

        Now replace that single sheet of paper with a stack, say 10 sheets. X & Y
        are the same, but Z now refers to which sheet of paper you draw on. By
        convention machining calls 0 in the Z-axis the top of the material, so
        that's the sheet on top.

        Now 0,0,0 (X,Y,Z) is the bottom left corner (to you), but the top sheet.
        0,0,1 jumps down one sheet, and 0,0,5 goes to the 6th sheet down. (0 based
        stuff gets a bit confusing but actually doesn't matter much).

        For our first line if we went from 0,0,0 (X,Y,Z) to 5,5,5 then you'd have
        the same line but going down thru the sheets. In 3 dimensions drawing 0,0,0
        to 5,5,0 gives you the same line as the first time, drawn on the top sheet
        as Z didn't move.

        The numbers I've been using have all been positive, negative numbers in this
        case would be drawing on the desk.

        On a CNC you have the same dimensions, so looking at a mill left & right is
        X , back & forth is Y, and up & down is Z. Convention says spindle is
        always on the Z axis.

        A lathe is treated as a mill that has fallen over backwards with its column
        on the floor. Since the spindle is on Z, that makes the direction the
        saddle travels Z. The Y direction is now trying to move up & down, you
        can't do that on a lathe so Y is eliminated, leaving you with X to move the
        tool.

        So yes, on a mill the Y-axis goes towards/away from you, while on a lathe
        that's the X-axis.

        Not everyone builds machines with X,Y,Z like that; they'll occasionally flip
        X & Y, or put the origin at the other side of the machine or other weird
        things, but most machines are the same.

        Tony
      • Hal
        Jim, Lathe Z axis is length and X axis is diameter. Mill X-Y is the table as in graphing. Z is the depth of the hole. Origins The simple lathe uses the
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
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          Jim,
          Lathe Z axis is length and X axis is diameter.

          Mill X-Y is the table as in graphing. Z is the depth of the hole.

          Origins
          The simple lathe uses the centerline of the spindle for X"0" and the face of the finish part for Z"0".

          The mill is a little more complex. As in X-Y graphing the 0,0 can be anywhere on the paper. Let us keep it in the lower left hand corner for starters. All holes will be in the first quad. X and Y are positive. The Z"0" is the finish top. Clearance is positive and hole depth is negative.

          The CAD/CAM package is the one you can use and get good code from. I have systems from Bobcad to Edgecam to Autodesk at my work. Each has their pros and cons.

          The CNC controls are a BIG option. First is a stable computer and operating system(windows vs Linux). The CNC control would be my next options. Now the rest will fall in place. Printer port or USB/network control board(break out board called BOB's). Servo or stepper drives and motors are a huge can of worms. Spindle control can be manual, cnc controled or both. Tool changes depend on the machine. The simple is manual, but you have to be there.

          Just some food for thought on a Sunday morning

          Hal
        • Gary Corlew
          Do not under any circumstances buy the TB6560 drive, please sign up at the cnczone and read the posts that people have written about that piece of crap!
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Do not under any circumstances buy the TB6560 drive, please sign up at the
            cnczone and read the posts that people have written about that piece of
            crap!

            http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_electronics_discussion/110986-how_i_fi
            xed_my_chinese.html





            You would be much better off buying a G540 from gecko drives:

            http://www.geckodrive.com/g540-digital-axis-motor-control-p-39.html



            A less expensive option would be this, if you are comfortable with
            soldering:

            http://www.hobbycnc.com/



            a less expensive option with no soldering:

            http://www.xylotex.com/

            As far as X & Z go I would simply put a couple of stickers on it (carriage)
            with the directions on it then all you have to do is glance down at it, once
            you get used to it, you can just take it off

            Gary



            From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of Jim Blake
            Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 11:54 PM
            To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Would like some info and help





            Hi guys, I've been a lurch on this group for sometime now but have never
            made a post. I've been gathering together items to make a HF lathe
            conversion to CNC.

            I would like to give you a little back ground on myself so you'll be
            able to help me out a little better. I was forced into retirement in
            2000 due to a back injury resulting in surgery and permanent nerve
            damage and scaring. The damage done is not reversible so I'm limited in
            what I can now do physically. Being forced on disability at age 50
            doesn't allow for a very big income as I'm sure some of you know. So I
            have to be very frugal on any project I start nowadays. I worked for
            several years in a family own machine shop. Using very old worn out
            equipment for the most part. I never had to worked on high precision
            parts. Most of the work was on Coal Mine Equipment repair. Where dirt
            grim and the worst possible working conditions for most equipment
            required loose tolerances in most, but not all cases. I was taught the
            machinist trade by my father-in-law an old time master machinist. He
            came out of a black smith shop into a machine shop the year I was born.
            So he had been around a long time and forgot more than I know even to
            this day I guess. He passed away several years ago. He wouldn't
            believe the things that are possible to do today with really, relatively
            inexpensive equipment.

            Back in the 81 I went back to school and got a degree in electronics and
            have worked with and around computer systems and industrial automation
            in one form or another every since. Working as a WEMR (weld equipment
            maintenance repair) at a VW plant near by gave me a lot of exposure to
            all kinds of computer controlled industrial equipment on door production
            lines for the VW GOLF during the mid and late 80's. All kinds of
            automation from simple fixture welding equipment to 5 & 6 axis robots,
            induction heating, high tonnage presses and everything in between. Our
            WEMR section had a wide range and scope of lines of demarcation. Due to
            only two WEMR's being at the plant when the first union contract was
            signed. But when a multi year $80-120 million dollar a year state
            grant made it possible for VW to expand it's production lines, the WEMR
            section went to the third largest skilled trade group in the plant.
            Behind only the tool and die and machine maintenance dept. After the
            grant time expired VW closed up shop and moved to Mexico. Remember what
            Ross Perro said about a "Giant Sucking Sound" with the passage of NAFTA.
            Nuff said about that.

            Anyway, during the early 90's I went back to the school I got my degree
            from and taught basic electronics, transistor, op-amps, filters etc. and
            industrial electronics, PLC's etc. for several years before moving on to
            teaching Microsoft Certification Courses up to the time of the back
            going to crap on me. Because I started working when I was 12 years old I
            had real difficult time mentally as well as physically dealing with not
            being able to work any more. Ended up getting hook (BY THE DOCTOR NOT
            ON MY OWN) on all kinds of drugs. Pain med's, depreciation you name it,
            the Doc had me on it. Became suicidal the whole works. Was a real
            basket case for several years, until I went cold turkey on the drugs and
            separated myself from the doctors getting rich off my suffering. Well I
            guess that's more than enough about Gulliver's travels so to speak.

            Since I can no longer work on the bigger stuff I'm now learning how to
            and building Radio Controlled construction equipment. From 1/16 scale
            battery operated plastic models up to 1/4 scale gasoline operated metal
            models. At this point only for myself. The cost of some these little
            machines can range into $3000-6000.00 for fully operational Excavators
            and Dozer's using miniature hydraulics and so-forth. To $250-$1500 for
            dump trucks, tractor-trailers, lowboy trailers and so-forth. Obviously,
            at these cost few of us on disability can afford any of these pricey
            toys. However, you can build some of the plastic models for around
            $150-$250.00 if you watch what your doing and build much of the project
            yourself. Which I intend to do. I would like to be able at some point
            to produce many of the parts used in these models, for a fraction of the
            cost currently being charged. Most all of these parts are being made
            and sold from Germany, The British Isles and other European countries.
            With the electronics coming from China, Japan etc. Again, this is
            something I would like to be able to do in the future. For now it's
            just a personal hobby for self consummation and enjoyment.


            I've spent the last year or so watching your post and picking up ideas
            and problems you guys have talked about. In addition to watching and
            listening I've been watching the price of stepper motors, drivers and
            assorted items to make a conversion on e-bay and other sites. I see the
            prices are go up in the last few months so I believe now is the time to
            start to buy. But as I said, I have to be very frugal with the limited
            income I have. So I'm open to any and all suggestions, ideas, comments
            and advice you guys may have.

            Now here are the things I intend to do. First, convert a HF 7X10 lathe
            to CNC. Later on build a 3 axis router type machine for cutting
            Plexiglas and some aluminum parts, or perhaps convert my mill/drill to
            CNC. And finally build a XY table for a plasma cutter for both aluminum
            and steel sheets.

            First the lathe. Several years ago I bought a HF 7X10 Mini Lathe and
            have used it for making small shafts, bushings etc. Still in good shape
            and the first machine I want to convert to CNC. Reason being, One have
            machine on hand, Two, simple build as far as parts, Three, simpler
            programing during learning experience. I'm big on the old adage K.I.S.S.

            At this point, without your guys input. I'm looking at using CNC 3 axis
            Stepper motor Driver TB6560, NEMA 23 282 oz-in stepper motors with 2:1
            toothed belt setup. Not sure about changing the lead screws yet. At
            this point looking to use the current lead screws in the machine for
            simplicity in construction. Will probably use a older 1.2Ghz computer
            with 1G ram and 1 to 2 Gig hard drive as dedicated machine and converted
            computer case and power supply for the steppers.

            Now for the programs. I recently started using Ubuntu Linux on my
            laptop. As I really can't upgrade it to operate anything newer than
            WinXP on it. I like the speed increase of the Linux but have very
            limited knowledge of this OS. XP is no problem thou. Can use either.

            Have D/L the MACH3 Demo software as well as all the docs they provide.
            But haven't yet dug into it real deep yet. Seems like the way to go but
            don't know enough about it yet to ask an intelligent question or even a
            dumb question as far as that goes.

            Have tried several CAD programs. At this point I'm leaning toward
            DraftSight as it's free and seems easier for me to get a grip on. Have
            tried Sketchup but can't seem to get the 3D thing down yet. Back in the
            late 80's early 90's I used AutoSketch a lot while teaching. Back then
            it was still a DOS program.

            Can't quite get the XZ stuff straight in my head yet. As an old
            machinist never thought much about the terminology, it was either moving
            the carriage forward or backward and the cross slide in or out. My
            sound stupid to some of you. But that's just the way old timers talked.
            HaHa.

            Like I said, I'm not to proud to ask questions or show my ignorance. An
            ignorant man can be taught, there's no cure for stupid. A stupid man is
            an ignorant man to proud to be taught.

            Well guys when I started this didn't realize it was going to be a novel.
            But, now you know something about me and what I'm looking for, so I hope
            you guys will be willing to help an old man enter into the 21st century
            as far as the world of CNC is concerned.

            Thanks much for your time and will be setting back waiting for your
            response.

            Later

            Jim Blake

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • tmday7
            Has anybody tried the KStep board from Dynomotion? It looks pretty impressive. Troy
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Has anybody tried the KStep board from Dynomotion? It looks pretty impressive.

              Troy

              --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Corlew" <gcorlew@...> wrote:
              >
              > Do not under any circumstances buy the TB6560 drive, please sign up at the
              > cnczone and read the posts that people have written about that piece of
              > crap!
              >
              > http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_electronics_discussion/110986-how_i_fi
              > xed_my_chinese.html
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > You would be much better off buying a G540 from gecko drives:
              >
              > http://www.geckodrive.com/g540-digital-axis-motor-control-p-39.html
              >
              >
              >
              > A less expensive option would be this, if you are comfortable with
              > soldering:
              >
              > http://www.hobbycnc.com/
              >
              >
              >
              > a less expensive option with no soldering:
              >
              > http://www.xylotex.com/
              >
              > As far as X & Z go I would simply put a couple of stickers on it (carriage)
              > with the directions on it then all you have to do is glance down at it, once
              > you get used to it, you can just take it off
              >
              > Gary
              >
              >
              >
              > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
              > On Behalf Of Jim Blake
              > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 11:54 PM
              > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Would like some info and help
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi guys, I've been a lurch on this group for sometime now but have never
              > made a post. I've been gathering together items to make a HF lathe
              > conversion to CNC.
              >
              > I would like to give you a little back ground on myself so you'll be
              > able to help me out a little better. I was forced into retirement in
              > 2000 due to a back injury resulting in surgery and permanent nerve
              > damage and scaring. The damage done is not reversible so I'm limited in
              > what I can now do physically. Being forced on disability at age 50
              > doesn't allow for a very big income as I'm sure some of you know. So I
              > have to be very frugal on any project I start nowadays. I worked for
              > several years in a family own machine shop. Using very old worn out
              > equipment for the most part. I never had to worked on high precision
              > parts. Most of the work was on Coal Mine Equipment repair. Where dirt
              > grim and the worst possible working conditions for most equipment
              > required loose tolerances in most, but not all cases. I was taught the
              > machinist trade by my father-in-law an old time master machinist. He
              > came out of a black smith shop into a machine shop the year I was born.
              > So he had been around a long time and forgot more than I know even to
              > this day I guess. He passed away several years ago. He wouldn't
              > believe the things that are possible to do today with really, relatively
              > inexpensive equipment.
              >
              > Back in the 81 I went back to school and got a degree in electronics and
              > have worked with and around computer systems and industrial automation
              > in one form or another every since. Working as a WEMR (weld equipment
              > maintenance repair) at a VW plant near by gave me a lot of exposure to
              > all kinds of computer controlled industrial equipment on door production
              > lines for the VW GOLF during the mid and late 80's. All kinds of
              > automation from simple fixture welding equipment to 5 & 6 axis robots,
              > induction heating, high tonnage presses and everything in between. Our
              > WEMR section had a wide range and scope of lines of demarcation. Due to
              > only two WEMR's being at the plant when the first union contract was
              > signed. But when a multi year $80-120 million dollar a year state
              > grant made it possible for VW to expand it's production lines, the WEMR
              > section went to the third largest skilled trade group in the plant.
              > Behind only the tool and die and machine maintenance dept. After the
              > grant time expired VW closed up shop and moved to Mexico. Remember what
              > Ross Perro said about a "Giant Sucking Sound" with the passage of NAFTA.
              > Nuff said about that.
              >
              > Anyway, during the early 90's I went back to the school I got my degree
              > from and taught basic electronics, transistor, op-amps, filters etc. and
              > industrial electronics, PLC's etc. for several years before moving on to
              > teaching Microsoft Certification Courses up to the time of the back
              > going to crap on me. Because I started working when I was 12 years old I
              > had real difficult time mentally as well as physically dealing with not
              > being able to work any more. Ended up getting hook (BY THE DOCTOR NOT
              > ON MY OWN) on all kinds of drugs. Pain med's, depreciation you name it,
              > the Doc had me on it. Became suicidal the whole works. Was a real
              > basket case for several years, until I went cold turkey on the drugs and
              > separated myself from the doctors getting rich off my suffering. Well I
              > guess that's more than enough about Gulliver's travels so to speak.
              >
              > Since I can no longer work on the bigger stuff I'm now learning how to
              > and building Radio Controlled construction equipment. From 1/16 scale
              > battery operated plastic models up to 1/4 scale gasoline operated metal
              > models. At this point only for myself. The cost of some these little
              > machines can range into $3000-6000.00 for fully operational Excavators
              > and Dozer's using miniature hydraulics and so-forth. To $250-$1500 for
              > dump trucks, tractor-trailers, lowboy trailers and so-forth. Obviously,
              > at these cost few of us on disability can afford any of these pricey
              > toys. However, you can build some of the plastic models for around
              > $150-$250.00 if you watch what your doing and build much of the project
              > yourself. Which I intend to do. I would like to be able at some point
              > to produce many of the parts used in these models, for a fraction of the
              > cost currently being charged. Most all of these parts are being made
              > and sold from Germany, The British Isles and other European countries.
              > With the electronics coming from China, Japan etc. Again, this is
              > something I would like to be able to do in the future. For now it's
              > just a personal hobby for self consummation and enjoyment.
              >
              >
              > I've spent the last year or so watching your post and picking up ideas
              > and problems you guys have talked about. In addition to watching and
              > listening I've been watching the price of stepper motors, drivers and
              > assorted items to make a conversion on e-bay and other sites. I see the
              > prices are go up in the last few months so I believe now is the time to
              > start to buy. But as I said, I have to be very frugal with the limited
              > income I have. So I'm open to any and all suggestions, ideas, comments
              > and advice you guys may have.
              >
              > Now here are the things I intend to do. First, convert a HF 7X10 lathe
              > to CNC. Later on build a 3 axis router type machine for cutting
              > Plexiglas and some aluminum parts, or perhaps convert my mill/drill to
              > CNC. And finally build a XY table for a plasma cutter for both aluminum
              > and steel sheets.
              >
              > First the lathe. Several years ago I bought a HF 7X10 Mini Lathe and
              > have used it for making small shafts, bushings etc. Still in good shape
              > and the first machine I want to convert to CNC. Reason being, One have
              > machine on hand, Two, simple build as far as parts, Three, simpler
              > programing during learning experience. I'm big on the old adage K.I.S.S.
              >
              > At this point, without your guys input. I'm looking at using CNC 3 axis
              > Stepper motor Driver TB6560, NEMA 23 282 oz-in stepper motors with 2:1
              > toothed belt setup. Not sure about changing the lead screws yet. At
              > this point looking to use the current lead screws in the machine for
              > simplicity in construction. Will probably use a older 1.2Ghz computer
              > with 1G ram and 1 to 2 Gig hard drive as dedicated machine and converted
              > computer case and power supply for the steppers.
              >
              > Now for the programs. I recently started using Ubuntu Linux on my
              > laptop. As I really can't upgrade it to operate anything newer than
              > WinXP on it. I like the speed increase of the Linux but have very
              > limited knowledge of this OS. XP is no problem thou. Can use either.
              >
              > Have D/L the MACH3 Demo software as well as all the docs they provide.
              > But haven't yet dug into it real deep yet. Seems like the way to go but
              > don't know enough about it yet to ask an intelligent question or even a
              > dumb question as far as that goes.
              >
              > Have tried several CAD programs. At this point I'm leaning toward
              > DraftSight as it's free and seems easier for me to get a grip on. Have
              > tried Sketchup but can't seem to get the 3D thing down yet. Back in the
              > late 80's early 90's I used AutoSketch a lot while teaching. Back then
              > it was still a DOS program.
              >
              > Can't quite get the XZ stuff straight in my head yet. As an old
              > machinist never thought much about the terminology, it was either moving
              > the carriage forward or backward and the cross slide in or out. My
              > sound stupid to some of you. But that's just the way old timers talked.
              > HaHa.
              >
              > Like I said, I'm not to proud to ask questions or show my ignorance. An
              > ignorant man can be taught, there's no cure for stupid. A stupid man is
              > an ignorant man to proud to be taught.
              >
              > Well guys when I started this didn't realize it was going to be a novel.
              > But, now you know something about me and what I'm looking for, so I hope
              > you guys will be willing to help an old man enter into the 21st century
              > as far as the world of CNC is concerned.
              >
              > Thanks much for your time and will be setting back waiting for your
              > response.
              >
              > Later
              >
              > Jim Blake
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Jim Blake
              Tony thank you very much, Ya had me scratching my head on your first post. One of those things that make ya say Huuhhhh? Thought I had taught my students
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Tony thank you very much, Ya had me scratching my head on your first
                post. One of those things that make ya say "Huuhhhh?" Thought I had
                taught my students all wrong for a while, but realized your fingers are
                like mine at times. Seem to have dyslexia at times, wanting to invert
                what my mind is saying. LoL. I really appreciate your time. The
                illustration you used for the three axis was excellent. Would never
                have thought of using paper sheets to describe Z axis. Very good. Well
                done.

                Didn't know about the lathe being like a mill flopped over on it's back.
                Makes since after you thank about it thou. Will have to adjust my mind
                set when working with CNC stuff. Like I said old timer with old time
                habits to over come.

                For now just going to concentrate on the lathe movements to keep things
                simple.

                Thanks again Tony, look forward to talking with you more.

                Jim


                On Sun, 2012-04-01 at 18:02 +1000, Tony Smith wrote:

                >
                >
                > > Can't quite get the XZ stuff straight in my head yet. As an old
                > machinist
                > never
                > > thought much about the terminology, it was either moving the
                > carriage
                > forward
                > > or backward and the cross slide in or out. My sound stupid to some
                > of
                > you. But
                > > that's just the way old timers talked.
                > > HaHa.
                >
                > Sigh.
                >
                > Ignore the last response, it'll only confuse you as I got X & Y mixed
                > up.
                > Hey, geometry class was a while back. So after a bit of proofreading:
                >
                > If you remember back to your geometry days at school (better than I
                > did,
                > lol), you had the graph paper to draw on. The point 0,0 (called the
                > origin)
                > is at the bottom left of the page, and X is horizontal (left to right)
                > and
                > the Y direction is vertical up the page (forward/away from you).
                >
                > If you start at 0,0 (X,Y) and move to 5,5, that is 5 right and 5 up,
                > you'd
                > draw a diagonal line (on a lathe you'd wind both handles at once). If
                > you
                > then move to 10, 5 then you'd move 5 more places to the right (X). Go
                > back
                > to 0,0 and you've just drawn a triangle.
                >
                > Then you add Z which is up & down.
                >
                > Now replace that single sheet of paper with a stack, say 10 sheets. X
                > & Y
                > are the same, but Z now refers to which sheet of paper you draw on. By
                > convention machining calls 0 in the Z-axis the top of the material, so
                > that's the sheet on top.
                >
                > Now 0,0,0 (X,Y,Z) is the bottom left corner (to you), but the top
                > sheet.
                > 0,0,1 jumps down one sheet, and 0,0,5 goes to the 6th sheet down. (0
                > based
                > stuff gets a bit confusing but actually doesn't matter much).
                >
                > For our first line if we went from 0,0,0 (X,Y,Z) to 5,5,5 then you'd
                > have
                > the same line but going down thru the sheets. In 3 dimensions drawing
                > 0,0,0
                > to 5,5,0 gives you the same line as the first time, drawn on the top
                > sheet
                > as Z didn't move.
                >
                > The numbers I've been using have all been positive, negative numbers
                > in this
                > case would be drawing on the desk.
                >
                > On a CNC you have the same dimensions, so looking at a mill left &
                > right is
                > X , back & forth is Y, and up & down is Z. Convention says spindle is
                > always on the Z axis.
                >
                > A lathe is treated as a mill that has fallen over backwards with its
                > column
                > on the floor. Since the spindle is on Z, that makes the direction the
                > saddle travels Z. The Y direction is now trying to move up & down, you
                > can't do that on a lathe so Y is eliminated, leaving you with X to
                > move the
                > tool.
                >
                > So yes, on a mill the Y-axis goes towards/away from you, while on a
                > lathe
                > that's the X-axis.
                >
                > Not everyone builds machines with X,Y,Z like that; they'll
                > occasionally flip
                > X & Y, or put the origin at the other side of the machine or other
                > weird
                > things, but most machines are the same.
                >
                > Tony
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jim Blake
                Hal thanks for your input. Makes since with Mach3 now. As an old machinist working with conventional equipment, lathe in particular, Z axis really never came
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hal thanks for your input. Makes since with Mach3 now. As an old
                  machinist working with conventional equipment, lathe in particular, Z
                  axis really never came into play or thinking. Carriage or saddle left,
                  right Cross slide in out. Guess the compound could have been considered
                  Z for short cuts on the face or short tappers ID or OD.

                  Just new terminology I'll have to get use to.

                  Now let's see if I understand correctly. The face of the chuck or the
                  face of the chuck jaws would be considered Z 0(zero) going to the right
                  toward the tail stock would be Z + (plus) lets say Z10 for the HF7X10
                  not using, or having the tail stock mounted. So moving away from the
                  chuck would be positive values. Z0 to Z10. Moving toward the chuck
                  would be negative values. -Z10 to -Z0.

                  X axis would be X0 center line of chuck or bed-ways, +X values moves
                  from center line to the max value the cross slide can move out toward
                  operator. For HF7X10 probably somewhere near +X3.

                  So anytime your cutting tool is moving INTO your stock, your going to be
                  going in -(negative value) on the X axis (cross slide moving away from
                  operator) and in a -(negative value) on the Z axis? Correct? Yes,No!

                  Am I going in the right direction with my thinking?

                  Starting to get myself confused.

                  Will stop here before asking or making anymore questions or statements.

                  Thanks again Hal really appreciate your help and time. Let's stick with
                  only the lathe terminology for now.

                  Jim

                  On Sun, 2012-04-01 at 11:11 +0000, Hal wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Jim,
                  > Lathe Z axis is length and X axis is diameter.
                  >
                  > Mill X-Y is the table as in graphing. Z is the depth of the hole.
                  >
                  > Origins
                  > The simple lathe uses the centerline of the spindle for X"0" and the
                  > face of the finish part for Z"0".
                  >
                  > The mill is a little more complex. As in X-Y graphing the 0,0 can be
                  > anywhere on the paper. Let us keep it in the lower left hand corner
                  > for starters. All holes will be in the first quad. X and Y are
                  > positive. The Z"0" is the finish top. Clearance is positive and hole
                  > depth is negative.
                  >
                  > The CAD/CAM package is the one you can use and get good code from. I
                  > have systems from Bobcad to Edgecam to Autodesk at my work. Each has
                  > their pros and cons.
                  >
                  > The CNC controls are a BIG option. First is a stable computer and
                  > operating system(windows vs Linux). The CNC control would be my next
                  > options. Now the rest will fall in place. Printer port or USB/network
                  > control board(break out board called BOB's). Servo or stepper drives
                  > and motors are a huge can of worms. Spindle control can be manual, cnc
                  > controled or both. Tool changes depend on the machine. The simple is
                  > manual, but you have to be there.
                  >
                  > Just some food for thought on a Sunday morning
                  >
                  > Hal
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim Blake
                  Gary I want to thank you. You just saved me some money and a whole heck of a lot of problems. This is exactly the direction I was headed. Not knowing anything
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Gary I want to thank you.

                    You just saved me some money and a whole heck of a lot of problems.
                    This is exactly the direction I was headed. Not knowing anything first
                    hand about CNC as it is now. Would have drove me nuts trying to figure
                    out what the problems where and how to correct them. Something I sure
                    don't need just starting into a new learning experience. Thanks much.

                    I looked at the Gecko drives early on in my research but thought they
                    might be overkill for what I had in mind. Looks like I was wrong in my
                    thinking. While I can still use a soldering iron, the eyes are a little
                    dimmer than they use to be and the hands are not quite as steady as
                    before. I could probably handle the kit, but for the money looks like
                    the xylotex might be the better way for me to go. Provided they are as
                    good as the gecko drives.

                    What do you use? And do you know someone currently using the xylotex
                    drives? Sure would like to talk to someone using them. I respect your
                    opinion and advice.


                    Thanks again Gary.

                    jim


                    On Sun, 2012-04-01 at 09:36 -0400, Gary Corlew wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Do not under any circumstances buy the TB6560 drive, please sign up at
                    > the
                    > cnczone and read the posts that people have written about that piece
                    > of
                    > crap!
                    >
                    > http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_electronics_discussion/110986-how_i_fi
                    > xed_my_chinese.html
                    >
                    > You would be much better off buying a G540 from gecko drives:
                    >
                    > http://www.geckodrive.com/g540-digital-axis-motor-control-p-39.html
                    >
                    > A less expensive option would be this, if you are comfortable with
                    > soldering:
                    >
                    > http://www.hobbycnc.com/
                    >
                    > a less expensive option with no soldering:
                    >
                    > http://www.xylotex.com/
                    >
                    > As far as X & Z go I would simply put a couple of stickers on it
                    > (carriage)
                    > with the directions on it then all you have to do is glance down at
                    > it, once
                    > you get used to it, you can just take it off
                    >
                    > Gary
                    >
                    > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On Behalf Of Jim Blake
                    > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 11:54 PM
                    > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Would like some info and help
                    >
                    > Hi guys, I've been a lurch on this group for sometime now but have
                    > never
                    > made a post. I've been gathering together items to make a HF lathe
                    > conversion to CNC.
                    >
                    > I would like to give you a little back ground on myself so you'll be
                    > able to help me out a little better. I was forced into retirement in
                    > 2000 due to a back injury resulting in surgery and permanent nerve
                    > damage and scaring. The damage done is not reversible so I'm limited
                    > in
                    > what I can now do physically. Being forced on disability at age 50
                    > doesn't allow for a very big income as I'm sure some of you know. So I
                    > have to be very frugal on any project I start nowadays. I worked for
                    > several years in a family own machine shop. Using very old worn out
                    > equipment for the most part. I never had to worked on high precision
                    > parts. Most of the work was on Coal Mine Equipment repair. Where dirt
                    > grim and the worst possible working conditions for most equipment
                    > required loose tolerances in most, but not all cases. I was taught the
                    > machinist trade by my father-in-law an old time master machinist. He
                    > came out of a black smith shop into a machine shop the year I was
                    > born.
                    > So he had been around a long time and forgot more than I know even to
                    > this day I guess. He passed away several years ago. He wouldn't
                    > believe the things that are possible to do today with really,
                    > relatively
                    > inexpensive equipment.
                    >
                    > Back in the 81 I went back to school and got a degree in electronics
                    > and
                    > have worked with and around computer systems and industrial automation
                    > in one form or another every since. Working as a WEMR (weld equipment
                    > maintenance repair) at a VW plant near by gave me a lot of exposure to
                    > all kinds of computer controlled industrial equipment on door
                    > production
                    > lines for the VW GOLF during the mid and late 80's. All kinds of
                    > automation from simple fixture welding equipment to 5 & 6 axis robots,
                    > induction heating, high tonnage presses and everything in between. Our
                    > WEMR section had a wide range and scope of lines of demarcation. Due
                    > to
                    > only two WEMR's being at the plant when the first union contract was
                    > signed. But when a multi year $80-120 million dollar a year state
                    > grant made it possible for VW to expand it's production lines, the
                    > WEMR
                    > section went to the third largest skilled trade group in the plant.
                    > Behind only the tool and die and machine maintenance dept. After the
                    > grant time expired VW closed up shop and moved to Mexico. Remember
                    > what
                    > Ross Perro said about a "Giant Sucking Sound" with the passage of
                    > NAFTA.
                    > Nuff said about that.
                    >
                    > Anyway, during the early 90's I went back to the school I got my
                    > degree
                    > from and taught basic electronics, transistor, op-amps, filters etc.
                    > and
                    > industrial electronics, PLC's etc. for several years before moving on
                    > to
                    > teaching Microsoft Certification Courses up to the time of the back
                    > going to crap on me. Because I started working when I was 12 years old
                    > I
                    > had real difficult time mentally as well as physically dealing with
                    > not
                    > being able to work any more. Ended up getting hook (BY THE DOCTOR NOT
                    > ON MY OWN) on all kinds of drugs. Pain med's, depreciation you name
                    > it,
                    > the Doc had me on it. Became suicidal the whole works. Was a real
                    > basket case for several years, until I went cold turkey on the drugs
                    > and
                    > separated myself from the doctors getting rich off my suffering. Well
                    > I
                    > guess that's more than enough about Gulliver's travels so to speak.
                    >
                    > Since I can no longer work on the bigger stuff I'm now learning how to
                    > and building Radio Controlled construction equipment. From 1/16 scale
                    > battery operated plastic models up to 1/4 scale gasoline operated
                    > metal
                    > models. At this point only for myself. The cost of some these little
                    > machines can range into $3000-6000.00 for fully operational Excavators
                    > and Dozer's using miniature hydraulics and so-forth. To $250-$1500 for
                    > dump trucks, tractor-trailers, lowboy trailers and so-forth.
                    > Obviously,
                    > at these cost few of us on disability can afford any of these pricey
                    > toys. However, you can build some of the plastic models for around
                    > $150-$250.00 if you watch what your doing and build much of the
                    > project
                    > yourself. Which I intend to do. I would like to be able at some point
                    > to produce many of the parts used in these models, for a fraction of
                    > the
                    > cost currently being charged. Most all of these parts are being made
                    > and sold from Germany, The British Isles and other European countries.
                    > With the electronics coming from China, Japan etc. Again, this is
                    > something I would like to be able to do in the future. For now it's
                    > just a personal hobby for self consummation and enjoyment.
                    >
                    > I've spent the last year or so watching your post and picking up ideas
                    > and problems you guys have talked about. In addition to watching and
                    > listening I've been watching the price of stepper motors, drivers and
                    > assorted items to make a conversion on e-bay and other sites. I see
                    > the
                    > prices are go up in the last few months so I believe now is the time
                    > to
                    > start to buy. But as I said, I have to be very frugal with the limited
                    > income I have. So I'm open to any and all suggestions, ideas, comments
                    > and advice you guys may have.
                    >
                    > Now here are the things I intend to do. First, convert a HF 7X10 lathe
                    > to CNC. Later on build a 3 axis router type machine for cutting
                    > Plexiglas and some aluminum parts, or perhaps convert my mill/drill to
                    > CNC. And finally build a XY table for a plasma cutter for both
                    > aluminum
                    > and steel sheets.
                    >
                    > First the lathe. Several years ago I bought a HF 7X10 Mini Lathe and
                    > have used it for making small shafts, bushings etc. Still in good
                    > shape
                    > and the first machine I want to convert to CNC. Reason being, One have
                    > machine on hand, Two, simple build as far as parts, Three, simpler
                    > programing during learning experience. I'm big on the old adage
                    > K.I.S.S.
                    >
                    > At this point, without your guys input. I'm looking at using CNC 3
                    > axis
                    > Stepper motor Driver TB6560, NEMA 23 282 oz-in stepper motors with 2:1
                    > toothed belt setup. Not sure about changing the lead screws yet. At
                    > this point looking to use the current lead screws in the machine for
                    > simplicity in construction. Will probably use a older 1.2Ghz computer
                    > with 1G ram and 1 to 2 Gig hard drive as dedicated machine and
                    > converted
                    > computer case and power supply for the steppers.
                    >
                    > Now for the programs. I recently started using Ubuntu Linux on my
                    > laptop. As I really can't upgrade it to operate anything newer than
                    > WinXP on it. I like the speed increase of the Linux but have very
                    > limited knowledge of this OS. XP is no problem thou. Can use either.
                    >
                    > Have D/L the MACH3 Demo software as well as all the docs they provide.
                    > But haven't yet dug into it real deep yet. Seems like the way to go
                    > but
                    > don't know enough about it yet to ask an intelligent question or even
                    > a
                    > dumb question as far as that goes.
                    >
                    > Have tried several CAD programs. At this point I'm leaning toward
                    > DraftSight as it's free and seems easier for me to get a grip on. Have
                    > tried Sketchup but can't seem to get the 3D thing down yet. Back in
                    > the
                    > late 80's early 90's I used AutoSketch a lot while teaching. Back then
                    > it was still a DOS program.
                    >
                    > Can't quite get the XZ stuff straight in my head yet. As an old
                    > machinist never thought much about the terminology, it was either
                    > moving
                    > the carriage forward or backward and the cross slide in or out. My
                    > sound stupid to some of you. But that's just the way old timers
                    > talked.
                    > HaHa.
                    >
                    > Like I said, I'm not to proud to ask questions or show my ignorance.
                    > An
                    > ignorant man can be taught, there's no cure for stupid. A stupid man
                    > is
                    > an ignorant man to proud to be taught.
                    >
                    > Well guys when I started this didn't realize it was going to be a
                    > novel.
                    > But, now you know something about me and what I'm looking for, so I
                    > hope
                    > you guys will be willing to help an old man enter into the 21st
                    > century
                    > as far as the world of CNC is concerned.
                    >
                    > Thanks much for your time and will be setting back waiting for your
                    > response.
                    >
                    > Later
                    >
                    > Jim Blake
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Hal
                    Jim, You are on the money. The compound slide is removed on most cnc conversions. It is just not needed. Pick either the jaw face or the right end for your
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Jim,
                      You are on the money. The compound slide is removed on most cnc conversions. It is just not needed. Pick either the jaw face or the right end for your Z"0". Being an old lathe hand you may be use to the finish face being Z"0". All Z dimensions would be negative. The only negative X would be faceing past center.

                      On the old graph paper, you will use the third quad. X graph will become
                      Z minus. Y graph becomes X plus. Remember the X diameter is twice the Y graph values.

                      Hal
                    • Andy Wander
                      On a lathe, Z increases as you move to the right, away from the chuck. Andy Wander ... From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On a lathe, Z increases as you move to the right, away from the chuck.

                        Andy Wander

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hal
                        Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 4:05 PM
                        To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Would like some info and help

                        Jim,
                        You are on the money. The compound slide is removed on most cnc conversions. It is just not needed. Pick either the jaw face or the right end for your Z"0". Being an old lathe hand you may be use to the finish face being Z"0". All Z dimensions would be negative. The only negative X would be faceing past center.

                        On the old graph paper, you will use the third quad. X graph will become
                        Z minus. Y graph becomes X plus. Remember the X diameter is twice the Y graph values.

                        Hal



                        ------------------------------------

                        www.machsupport.com - Web site AccessYahoo! Groups Links
                      • Tony Smith
                        ... Your Z-axis is the spindle, negative is always towards the spindle, and positive away from it (mill is the same), so what you re thinking is correct. The
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > Now let's see if I understand correctly. The face of the chuck or the face of the
                          > chuck jaws would be considered Z 0(zero) going to the right toward the tail
                          > stock would be Z + (plus) lets say Z10 for the HF7X10 not using, or having the
                          > tail stock mounted. So moving away from the chuck would be positive values.
                          > Z0 to Z10. Moving toward the chuck would be negative values. -Z10 to -Z0.
                          >
                          > X axis would be X0 center line of chuck or bed-ways, +X values moves from
                          > center line to the max value the cross slide can move out toward operator. For
                          > HF7X10 probably somewhere near +X3.
                          >
                          > So anytime your cutting tool is moving INTO your stock, your going to be going
                          > in -(negative value) on the X axis (cross slide moving away from
                          > operator) and in a -(negative value) on the Z axis? Correct? Yes,No!
                          >
                          > Am I going in the right direction with my thinking?


                          Your Z-axis is the spindle, negative is always towards the spindle, and positive away from it (mill is the same), so what you're thinking is correct.

                          The origin is set by you, but is typically it's the right edge of your work piece. In most cases the Z coordinates used would be negative values.

                          The origin for the X-axis is the spindle centerline, again as you were thinking. Movement on the X-axis is as you say, numbers getting bigger means the tool moves towards you, getting smaller means going away. However you don't really have negative X values, that means you've gone past the middle. (This is the case for your 7x10, industrial lathes with rear toolposts work in negative.)

                          The way to view it is to say the numbers are the diameter of the work (the values for X are given in diameter, not radius), so moving the tool to a smaller number makes the diameter smaller. If you have a 10mm rod, and you move from 10 to 8, it will take a 1mm cut. Of course the tool is only 5mm from the center, and only moves 1mm, but you don't work with the radius and go from 5 to 4. Working with the diameter is how you do it manually anyway.

                          It does make sense eventually, stickers on the lathe helps.

                          Tony
                        • Ger
                          Go with the Gecko G540. It s less than $100 more than the Xylotex, but will provide double the performance, and the G540 is more durable. Gerry ... From: Jim
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Go with the Gecko G540. It's less than $100 more than the Xylotex, but will
                            provide double the performance, and the G540 is more durable.

                            Gerry

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Jim Blake" <jblake9042@...>
                            To: <mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 4:02 PM
                            Subject: RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Would like some info and help


                            > but for the money looks like
                            > the xylotex might be the better way for me to go. Provided they are as
                            > good as the gecko drives.
                          • Gary Corlew
                            The gecko drive is not over kill, the Xyotex drive is a good one but you do have to be careful with it(I started out with one) I honestly think you would be
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The gecko drive is not over kill, the Xyotex drive is a good one but you do have to be careful with it(I started out with one) I honestly think you would be much happier with the gecko drive. I upgraded to the gecko’s after using the Xylotex for a few months the performance gain was tremendous!

                              Gary



                              From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Blake
                              Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 4:03 PM
                              To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Would like some info and help





                              Gary I want to thank you.

                              You just saved me some money and a whole heck of a lot of problems.
                              This is exactly the direction I was headed. Not knowing anything first
                              hand about CNC as it is now. Would have drove me nuts trying to figure
                              out what the problems where and how to correct them. Something I sure
                              don't need just starting into a new learning experience. Thanks much.

                              I looked at the Gecko drives early on in my research but thought they
                              might be overkill for what I had in mind. Looks like I was wrong in my
                              thinking. While I can still use a soldering iron, the eyes are a little
                              dimmer than they use to be and the hands are not quite as steady as
                              before. I could probably handle the kit, but for the money looks like
                              the xylotex might be the better way for me to go. Provided they are as
                              good as the gecko drives.

                              What do you use? And do you know someone currently using the xylotex
                              drives? Sure would like to talk to someone using them. I respect your
                              opinion and advice.

                              Thanks again Gary.

                              jim

                              On Sun, 2012-04-01 at 09:36 -0400, Gary Corlew wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > Do not under any circumstances buy the TB6560 drive, please sign up at
                              > the
                              > cnczone and read the posts that people have written about that piece
                              > of
                              > crap!
                              >
                              > http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_electronics_discussion/110986-how_i_fi
                              > xed_my_chinese.html
                              >
                              > You would be much better off buying a G540 from gecko drives:
                              >
                              > http://www.geckodrive.com/g540-digital-axis-motor-control-p-39.html
                              >
                              > A less expensive option would be this, if you are comfortable with
                              > soldering:
                              >
                              > http://www.hobbycnc.com/
                              >
                              > a less expensive option with no soldering:
                              >
                              > http://www.xylotex.com/
                              >
                              > As far as X & Z go I would simply put a couple of stickers on it
                              > (carriage)
                              > with the directions on it then all you have to do is glance down at
                              > it, once
                              > you get used to it, you can just take it off
                              >
                              > Gary
                              >
                              > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                              > On Behalf Of Jim Blake
                              > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 11:54 PM
                              > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Would like some info and help
                              >
                              > Hi guys, I've been a lurch on this group for sometime now but have
                              > never
                              > made a post. I've been gathering together items to make a HF lathe
                              > conversion to CNC.
                              >
                              > I would like to give you a little back ground on myself so you'll be
                              > able to help me out a little better. I was forced into retirement in
                              > 2000 due to a back injury resulting in surgery and permanent nerve
                              > damage and scaring. The damage done is not reversible so I'm limited
                              > in
                              > what I can now do physically. Being forced on disability at age 50
                              > doesn't allow for a very big income as I'm sure some of you know. So I
                              > have to be very frugal on any project I start nowadays. I worked for
                              > several years in a family own machine shop. Using very old worn out
                              > equipment for the most part. I never had to worked on high precision
                              > parts. Most of the work was on Coal Mine Equipment repair. Where dirt
                              > grim and the worst possible working conditions for most equipment
                              > required loose tolerances in most, but not all cases. I was taught the
                              > machinist trade by my father-in-law an old time master machinist. He
                              > came out of a black smith shop into a machine shop the year I was
                              > born.
                              > So he had been around a long time and forgot more than I know even to
                              > this day I guess. He passed away several years ago. He wouldn't
                              > believe the things that are possible to do today with really,
                              > relatively
                              > inexpensive equipment.
                              >
                              > Back in the 81 I went back to school and got a degree in electronics
                              > and
                              > have worked with and around computer systems and industrial automation
                              > in one form or another every since. Working as a WEMR (weld equipment
                              > maintenance repair) at a VW plant near by gave me a lot of exposure to
                              > all kinds of computer controlled industrial equipment on door
                              > production
                              > lines for the VW GOLF during the mid and late 80's. All kinds of
                              > automation from simple fixture welding equipment to 5 & 6 axis robots,
                              > induction heating, high tonnage presses and everything in between. Our
                              > WEMR section had a wide range and scope of lines of demarcation. Due
                              > to
                              > only two WEMR's being at the plant when the first union contract was
                              > signed. But when a multi year $80-120 million dollar a year state
                              > grant made it possible for VW to expand it's production lines, the
                              > WEMR
                              > section went to the third largest skilled trade group in the plant.
                              > Behind only the tool and die and machine maintenance dept. After the
                              > grant time expired VW closed up shop and moved to Mexico. Remember
                              > what
                              > Ross Perro said about a "Giant Sucking Sound" with the passage of
                              > NAFTA.
                              > Nuff said about that.
                              >
                              > Anyway, during the early 90's I went back to the school I got my
                              > degree
                              > from and taught basic electronics, transistor, op-amps, filters etc.
                              > and
                              > industrial electronics, PLC's etc. for several years before moving on
                              > to
                              > teaching Microsoft Certification Courses up to the time of the back
                              > going to crap on me. Because I started working when I was 12 years old
                              > I
                              > had real difficult time mentally as well as physically dealing with
                              > not
                              > being able to work any more. Ended up getting hook (BY THE DOCTOR NOT
                              > ON MY OWN) on all kinds of drugs. Pain med's, depreciation you name
                              > it,
                              > the Doc had me on it. Became suicidal the whole works. Was a real
                              > basket case for several years, until I went cold turkey on the drugs
                              > and
                              > separated myself from the doctors getting rich off my suffering. Well
                              > I
                              > guess that's more than enough about Gulliver's travels so to speak.
                              >
                              > Since I can no longer work on the bigger stuff I'm now learning how to
                              > and building Radio Controlled construction equipment. From 1/16 scale
                              > battery operated plastic models up to 1/4 scale gasoline operated
                              > metal
                              > models. At this point only for myself. The cost of some these little
                              > machines can range into $3000-6000.00 for fully operational Excavators
                              > and Dozer's using miniature hydraulics and so-forth. To $250-$1500 for
                              > dump trucks, tractor-trailers, lowboy trailers and so-forth.
                              > Obviously,
                              > at these cost few of us on disability can afford any of these pricey
                              > toys. However, you can build some of the plastic models for around
                              > $150-$250.00 if you watch what your doing and build much of the
                              > project
                              > yourself. Which I intend to do. I would like to be able at some point
                              > to produce many of the parts used in these models, for a fraction of
                              > the
                              > cost currently being charged. Most all of these parts are being made
                              > and sold from Germany, The British Isles and other European countries.
                              > With the electronics coming from China, Japan etc. Again, this is
                              > something I would like to be able to do in the future. For now it's
                              > just a personal hobby for self consummation and enjoyment.
                              >
                              > I've spent the last year or so watching your post and picking up ideas
                              > and problems you guys have talked about. In addition to watching and
                              > listening I've been watching the price of stepper motors, drivers and
                              > assorted items to make a conversion on e-bay and other sites. I see
                              > the
                              > prices are go up in the last few months so I believe now is the time
                              > to
                              > start to buy. But as I said, I have to be very frugal with the limited
                              > income I have. So I'm open to any and all suggestions, ideas, comments
                              > and advice you guys may have.
                              >
                              > Now here are the things I intend to do. First, convert a HF 7X10 lathe
                              > to CNC. Later on build a 3 axis router type machine for cutting
                              > Plexiglas and some aluminum parts, or perhaps convert my mill/drill to
                              > CNC. And finally build a XY table for a plasma cutter for both
                              > aluminum
                              > and steel sheets.
                              >
                              > First the lathe. Several years ago I bought a HF 7X10 Mini Lathe and
                              > have used it for making small shafts, bushings etc. Still in good
                              > shape
                              > and the first machine I want to convert to CNC. Reason being, One have
                              > machine on hand, Two, simple build as far as parts, Three, simpler
                              > programing during learning experience. I'm big on the old adage
                              > K.I.S.S.
                              >
                              > At this point, without your guys input. I'm looking at using CNC 3
                              > axis
                              > Stepper motor Driver TB6560, NEMA 23 282 oz-in stepper motors with 2:1
                              > toothed belt setup. Not sure about changing the lead screws yet. At
                              > this point looking to use the current lead screws in the machine for
                              > simplicity in construction. Will probably use a older 1.2Ghz computer
                              > with 1G ram and 1 to 2 Gig hard drive as dedicated machine and
                              > converted
                              > computer case and power supply for the steppers.
                              >
                              > Now for the programs. I recently started using Ubuntu Linux on my
                              > laptop. As I really can't upgrade it to operate anything newer than
                              > WinXP on it. I like the speed increase of the Linux but have very
                              > limited knowledge of this OS. XP is no problem thou. Can use either.
                              >
                              > Have D/L the MACH3 Demo software as well as all the docs they provide.
                              > But haven't yet dug into it real deep yet. Seems like the way to go
                              > but
                              > don't know enough about it yet to ask an intelligent question or even
                              > a
                              > dumb question as far as that goes.
                              >
                              > Have tried several CAD programs. At this point I'm leaning toward
                              > DraftSight as it's free and seems easier for me to get a grip on. Have
                              > tried Sketchup but can't seem to get the 3D thing down yet. Back in
                              > the
                              > late 80's early 90's I used AutoSketch a lot while teaching. Back then
                              > it was still a DOS program.
                              >
                              > Can't quite get the XZ stuff straight in my head yet. As an old
                              > machinist never thought much about the terminology, it was either
                              > moving
                              > the carriage forward or backward and the cross slide in or out. My
                              > sound stupid to some of you. But that's just the way old timers
                              > talked.
                              > HaHa.
                              >
                              > Like I said, I'm not to proud to ask questions or show my ignorance.
                              > An
                              > ignorant man can be taught, there's no cure for stupid. A stupid man
                              > is
                              > an ignorant man to proud to be taught.
                              >
                              > Well guys when I started this didn't realize it was going to be a
                              > novel.
                              > But, now you know something about me and what I'm looking for, so I
                              > hope
                              > you guys will be willing to help an old man enter into the 21st
                              > century
                              > as far as the world of CNC is concerned.
                              >
                              > Thanks much for your time and will be setting back waiting for your
                              > response.
                              >
                              > Later
                              >
                              > Jim Blake
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Russell Dunn
                              I don t know the Xylotex but my G540 is about 5 years old and has never missed a beat. So I have to support Gerry on this one for sure. Russell Dunn TianJin,
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I don't know the Xylotex but my G540 is about 5 years old and has never missed a beat.
                                So I have to support Gerry on this one for sure.
                                Russell Dunn
                                TianJin, PR China


                                On 2 Apr 2012, at 07:10, Ger wrote:

                                > Go with the Gecko G540. It's less than $100 more than the Xylotex, but will
                                > provide double the performance, and the G540 is more durable.
                                >
                                > Gerry
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Jim Blake" <jblake9042@...>
                                > To: <mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 4:02 PM
                                > Subject: RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Would like some info and help
                                >
                                > > but for the money looks like
                                > > the xylotex might be the better way for me to go. Provided they are as
                                > > good as the gecko drives.
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • G_Mouer
                                What Gerry said, I have owned both, the gecko outperforms the xylotex by a mile, no comparision.
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  What Gerry said, I have owned both, the gecko outperforms the xylotex by a mile, no comparision.

                                  --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "Ger" <CNCWoodworker@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Go with the Gecko G540. It's less than $100 more than the Xylotex, but will
                                  > provide double the performance, and the G540 is more durable.
                                  >
                                  > Gerry
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "Jim Blake" <jblake9042@...>
                                  > To: <mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 4:02 PM
                                  > Subject: RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Would like some info and help
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > but for the money looks like
                                  > > the xylotex might be the better way for me to go. Provided they are as
                                  > > good as the gecko drives.
                                  >
                                • Andy Wander
                                  On a vertical mill, negative Z is AWAY from the spindle/chuck, NOT toward the spindle. On a lathe, negative Z is toward the spindle. Andy Wander ... From:
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 1, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On a vertical mill, negative Z is AWAY from the spindle/chuck, NOT toward the spindle.

                                    On a lathe, negative Z is toward the spindle.


                                    Andy Wander

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Smith
                                    Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 5:09 PM
                                    To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Would like some info and help

                                    > Now let's see if I understand correctly. The face of the chuck or the face of the
                                    > chuck jaws would be considered Z 0(zero) going to the right toward the tail
                                    > stock would be Z + (plus) lets say Z10 for the HF7X10 not using, or having the
                                    > tail stock mounted. So moving away from the chuck would be positive values.
                                    > Z0 to Z10. Moving toward the chuck would be negative values. -Z10 to -Z0.
                                    >
                                    > X axis would be X0 center line of chuck or bed-ways, +X values moves from
                                    > center line to the max value the cross slide can move out toward operator. For
                                    > HF7X10 probably somewhere near +X3.
                                    >
                                    > So anytime your cutting tool is moving INTO your stock, your going to be going
                                    > in -(negative value) on the X axis (cross slide moving away from
                                    > operator) and in a -(negative value) on the Z axis? Correct? Yes,No!
                                    >
                                    > Am I going in the right direction with my thinking?


                                    Your Z-axis is the spindle, negative is always towards the spindle, and positive away from it (mill is the same), so what you're thinking is correct.

                                    The origin is set by you, but is typically it's the right edge of your work piece. In most cases the Z coordinates used would be negative values.

                                    The origin for the X-axis is the spindle centerline, again as you were thinking. Movement on the X-axis is as you say, numbers getting bigger means the tool moves towards you, getting smaller means going away. However you don't really have negative X values, that means you've gone past the middle. (This is the case for your 7x10, industrial lathes with rear toolposts work in negative.)

                                    The way to view it is to say the numbers are the diameter of the work (the values for X are given in diameter, not radius), so moving the tool to a smaller number makes the diameter smaller. If you have a 10mm rod, and you move from 10 to 8, it will take a 1mm cut. Of course the tool is only 5mm from the center, and only moves 1mm, but you don't work with the radius and go from 5 to 4. Working with the diameter is how you do it manually anyway.

                                    It does make sense eventually, stickers on the lathe helps.

                                    Tony





                                    ------------------------------------

                                    www.machsupport.com - Web site AccessYahoo! Groups Links
                                  • Hood
                                    Negative Z is the same on a lathe or a mill. What you have to think about is the work and not the chuck. On both as you cut further into the work piece you are
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 2, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Negative Z is the same on a lathe or a mill. What you have to think about is the work and not the chuck. On both as you cut further into the work piece you are moving in a negative Z direction. In other words when the quill on a mill moves out is cutting deeper into your part and thus a negative Z, on a lathe the axis moving towards the work in the chuck is cutting further into the work so again is moving in a negative Z direction.
                                      On a lathe, just like on a mill, the end of the work material (or top surface on a mill) is normally set as Z zero in work coordinates.
                                      Hood

                                      --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Andy Wander <awander@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > On a vertical mill, negative Z is AWAY from the spindle/chuck, NOT toward the spindle.
                                      >
                                      > On a lathe, negative Z is toward the spindle.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Andy Wander
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Smith
                                      > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 5:09 PM
                                      > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Would like some info and help
                                      >
                                      > > Now let's see if I understand correctly. The face of the chuck or the face of the
                                      > > chuck jaws would be considered Z 0(zero) going to the right toward the tail
                                      > > stock would be Z + (plus) lets say Z10 for the HF7X10 not using, or having the
                                      > > tail stock mounted. So moving away from the chuck would be positive values.
                                      > > Z0 to Z10. Moving toward the chuck would be negative values. -Z10 to -Z0.
                                      > >
                                      > > X axis would be X0 center line of chuck or bed-ways, +X values moves from
                                      > > center line to the max value the cross slide can move out toward operator. For
                                      > > HF7X10 probably somewhere near +X3.
                                      > >
                                      > > So anytime your cutting tool is moving INTO your stock, your going to be going
                                      > > in -(negative value) on the X axis (cross slide moving away from
                                      > > operator) and in a -(negative value) on the Z axis? Correct? Yes,No!
                                      > >
                                      > > Am I going in the right direction with my thinking?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Your Z-axis is the spindle, negative is always towards the spindle, and positive away from it (mill is the same), so what you're thinking is correct.
                                      >
                                      > The origin is set by you, but is typically it's the right edge of your work piece. In most cases the Z coordinates used would be negative values.
                                      >
                                      > The origin for the X-axis is the spindle centerline, again as you were thinking. Movement on the X-axis is as you say, numbers getting bigger means the tool moves towards you, getting smaller means going away. However you don't really have negative X values, that means you've gone past the middle. (This is the case for your 7x10, industrial lathes with rear toolposts work in negative.)
                                      >
                                      > The way to view it is to say the numbers are the diameter of the work (the values for X are given in diameter, not radius), so moving the tool to a smaller number makes the diameter smaller. If you have a 10mm rod, and you move from 10 to 8, it will take a 1mm cut. Of course the tool is only 5mm from the center, and only moves 1mm, but you don't work with the radius and go from 5 to 4. Working with the diameter is how you do it manually anyway.
                                      >
                                      > It does make sense eventually, stickers on the lathe helps.
                                      >
                                      > Tony
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > www.machsupport.com - Web site AccessYahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                    • Tony Smith
                                      I should have stayed in bed, but yes, negative-Z is towards the work. Andy says the same thing, but that s what you get when trying to describe a lathe & mill
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 2, 2012
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                                        I should have stayed in bed, but yes, negative-Z is towards the work. Andy
                                        says the same thing, but that's what you get when trying to describe a lathe
                                        & mill at the same time and avoiding generic statements (even though the
                                        generic statements are better).

                                        Tony



                                        > Negative Z is the same on a lathe or a mill. What you have to think about
                                        is the
                                        > work and not the chuck. On both as you cut further into the work piece you
                                        are
                                        > moving in a negative Z direction. In other words when the quill on a mill
                                        moves
                                        > out is cutting deeper into your part and thus a negative Z, on a lathe the
                                        axis
                                        > moving towards the work in the chuck is cutting further into the work so
                                        again is
                                        > moving in a negative Z direction.
                                        > On a lathe, just like on a mill, the end of the work material (or top
                                        surface on a
                                        > mill) is normally set as Z zero in work coordinates.
                                        > Hood
                                        >
                                        > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Andy Wander <awander@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > On a vertical mill, negative Z is AWAY from the spindle/chuck, NOT
                                        toward the
                                        > spindle.
                                        > >
                                        > > On a lathe, negative Z is toward the spindle.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Andy Wander
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Smith
                                        > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 5:09 PM
                                        > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Would like some info and help
                                        > >
                                        > > > Now let's see if I understand correctly. The face of the chuck or
                                        > > > the face of the chuck jaws would be considered Z 0(zero) going to
                                        > > > the right toward the tail stock would be Z + (plus) lets say Z10 for
                                        > > > the HF7X10 not using, or having the tail stock mounted. So moving
                                        away
                                        > from the chuck would be positive values.
                                        > > > Z0 to Z10. Moving toward the chuck would be negative values. -Z10 to
                                        -Z0.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > X axis would be X0 center line of chuck or bed-ways, +X values moves
                                        > > > from center line to the max value the cross slide can move out
                                        > > > toward operator. For
                                        > > > HF7X10 probably somewhere near +X3.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > So anytime your cutting tool is moving INTO your stock, your going
                                        > > > to be going in -(negative value) on the X axis (cross slide moving
                                        > > > away from
                                        > > > operator) and in a -(negative value) on the Z axis? Correct? Yes,No!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Am I going in the right direction with my thinking?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Your Z-axis is the spindle, negative is always towards the spindle, and
                                        positive
                                        > away from it (mill is the same), so what you're thinking is correct.
                                        > >
                                        > > The origin is set by you, but is typically it's the right edge of your
                                        work piece.
                                        > In most cases the Z coordinates used would be negative values.
                                        > >
                                        > > The origin for the X-axis is the spindle centerline, again as you were
                                        > > thinking. Movement on the X-axis is as you say, numbers getting
                                        > > bigger means the tool moves towards you, getting smaller means going
                                        > > away. However you don't really have negative X values, that means
                                        > > you've gone past the middle. (This is the case for your 7x10,
                                        > > industrial lathes with rear toolposts work in negative.)
                                        > >
                                        > > The way to view it is to say the numbers are the diameter of the work
                                        (the
                                        > values for X are given in diameter, not radius), so moving the tool to a
                                        smaller
                                        > number makes the diameter smaller. If you have a 10mm rod, and you move
                                        > from 10 to 8, it will take a 1mm cut. Of course the tool is only 5mm from
                                        the
                                        > center, and only moves 1mm, but you don't work with the radius and go from
                                        5
                                        > to 4. Working with the diameter is how you do it manually anyway.
                                        > >
                                        > > It does make sense eventually, stickers on the lathe helps.
                                        > >
                                        > > Tony
                                      • Andy Wander
                                        Exactly. Andy Wander ... From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hood Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 3:22 AM To:
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 2, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Exactly.


                                          Andy Wander

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hood
                                          Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 3:22 AM
                                          To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Would like some info and help

                                          Negative Z is the same on a lathe or a mill. What you have to think about is the work and not the chuck. On both as you cut further into the work piece you are moving in a negative Z direction. In other words when the quill on a mill moves out is cutting deeper into your part and thus a negative Z, on a lathe the axis moving towards the work in the chuck is cutting further into the work so again is moving in a negative Z direction.
                                          On a lathe, just like on a mill, the end of the work material (or top surface on a mill) is normally set as Z zero in work coordinates.
                                          Hood

                                          --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Andy Wander <awander@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > On a vertical mill, negative Z is AWAY from the spindle/chuck, NOT toward the spindle.
                                          >
                                          > On a lathe, negative Z is toward the spindle.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Andy Wander
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Smith
                                          > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 5:09 PM
                                          > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Would like some info and help
                                          >
                                          > > Now let's see if I understand correctly. The face of the chuck or the face of the
                                          > > chuck jaws would be considered Z 0(zero) going to the right toward the tail
                                          > > stock would be Z + (plus) lets say Z10 for the HF7X10 not using, or having the
                                          > > tail stock mounted. So moving away from the chuck would be positive values.
                                          > > Z0 to Z10. Moving toward the chuck would be negative values. -Z10 to -Z0.
                                          > >
                                          > > X axis would be X0 center line of chuck or bed-ways, +X values moves from
                                          > > center line to the max value the cross slide can move out toward operator. For
                                          > > HF7X10 probably somewhere near +X3.
                                          > >
                                          > > So anytime your cutting tool is moving INTO your stock, your going to be going
                                          > > in -(negative value) on the X axis (cross slide moving away from
                                          > > operator) and in a -(negative value) on the Z axis? Correct? Yes,No!
                                          > >
                                          > > Am I going in the right direction with my thinking?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Your Z-axis is the spindle, negative is always towards the spindle, and positive away from it (mill is the same), so what you're thinking is correct.
                                          >
                                          > The origin is set by you, but is typically it's the right edge of your work piece. In most cases the Z coordinates used would be negative values.
                                          >
                                          > The origin for the X-axis is the spindle centerline, again as you were thinking. Movement on the X-axis is as you say, numbers getting bigger means the tool moves towards you, getting smaller means going away. However you don't really have negative X values, that means you've gone past the middle. (This is the case for your 7x10, industrial lathes with rear toolposts work in negative.)
                                          >
                                          > The way to view it is to say the numbers are the diameter of the work (the values for X are given in diameter, not radius), so moving the tool to a smaller number makes the diameter smaller. If you have a 10mm rod, and you move from 10 to 8, it will take a 1mm cut. Of course the tool is only 5mm from the center, and only moves 1mm, but you don't work with the radius and go from 5 to 4. Working with the diameter is how you do it manually anyway.
                                          >
                                          > It does make sense eventually, stickers on the lathe helps.
                                          >
                                          > Tony
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