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RE: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out

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  • Dave Halliday
    Does this happen when the spindle is over the same general area of the table? Dave
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 31, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Does this happen when the spindle is over the same general area of the
      table?

      Dave

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of art2
      > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:31 AM
      > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
      >
      > Hi:
      >
      > Does it go back to zero..or has it lost position when this occurs?
      >
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Art
      > www.gearotic.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: qconvers@...
      > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 9:33 AM
      > Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
      >
      >
      >
      > Have you tried slowing your feeds down?
      >
      > Dave K
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 31/07/2011 13:21:06 GMT Daylight Time,
      > don@...
      > writes:
      >
      > We have a weird issue that has us stumped and hopefully
      > someone can help.
      > I'm not quite sure exactly what to call it, so let me describe it.
      >
      > We'll start out cutting fine, no issues. Then after a bit, it will
      > suddenly completely lose it's way on the horizontal axis.
      > For example, last night
      > we were watching it and instead of the 45 degree or so line
      > you would
      > expect in the letter X, it was more like a 75 or 80 degree
      > line on the table.
      >
      > The main issue is the horizontal but once the above starts
      > happening, it
      > can get a little wonky on the y-axis as well (z-axis seems
      > to be okay so
      > far) but only sightly so.
      >
      > We tried swapping the inputs from x and y (to eliminate the
      > board and the
      > parallel port) and the behavior didn't change at all. We
      > can cut a perfect
      > circle as well. I watched the diagnostics page in Mach 3
      > the whole time and
      > nothing funny jumped up at all. It was weird watching it
      > think it was
      > cutting a perfect X and then on the table seeing what it
      > was really doing.
      > Eventually we just used 'WWWW XXXX' as a test, with the Xs
      > being a line right
      > below the Ws but originally the problem would occur on
      > anything, only after
      > running for a bit.
      >
      > Does anyone have any suggestions on what this could be or
      > how better to
      > nail it down? Or, better yet, how to fix it??
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > www.machsupport.com - Web site AccessYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > www.machsupport.com - Web site AccessYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • donc010
      Trying to reply to everyone at once here: This is a machine built from buildyourcnc.com (BlackToe) with x and y on chain drive and z on screw drive We watched
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Trying to reply to everyone at once here:
        This is a machine built from buildyourcnc.com (BlackToe) with x and y on chain drive and z on screw drive

        We watched the frequency on diagnostics and never saw any dips

        We have .1uF caps on each motor input and also on the estop.

        It doesn't seem to happen over any particular part of the table, but the x axis gets really bad, then sometimes the y axis will get off, but not as much and the z axis doesn't seem to have had any problems.

        We've gone through and checked and tightened everything (but are continuing to check and tighten).

        The machine has been up and running for a while although looking back there were some minor accuracy issues on some older pieces. It just recently went crazy though - we can't even finish a piece now.

        We've cranked the depth and feeds way down (.04 in/pass, 15 in/min) with no change.

        Still open to *any* suggestions!!
        Thanks for the help!



        --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson <ron@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 7/31/2011 9:22 AM, Wolgamott M wrote:
        > >
        > > I have bee fighting similar problem for a week now. All of a sudden my
        > > machine got stupid. I notice it the first time at about 25-30 minutes
        > > into the cut. next time can happen anywhere any time mostly going from
        > > Y axis to X axis. On occasion it looses communications with the
        > > Shuttle which I use as stop button to kill a program, Also noticed
        > > sometimes it really slows down when it goes goofy.
        > > Â
        > > Asked group last week for help, got a lot of good ideas but nothing
        > > that cured problem. Try toget  most current version of Mach3 stable
        > > version to download. guess wht need to have connection to internet.
        > > Internet was one thing group said to remove. Removed all prograns not
        > > required, especially those that want to phone home. Will not accept
        > > windows repair as current version on computer is newer than the disk.
        > > May have to format disk and start over.
        > > Â
        > > Trying to set different computer in place today.
        > > Â
        > > my setup consists of 4axis hobbycnc board.
        > > old computer 1350Â mhz AMD
        > > Windows XP with most upgrades legal license
        > > Mach3 legal license
        > > tried to slow axis down for more power
        > > have not found problem yet and have deadlines to meet.
        > > Â
        > > Â
        > > M. Wolgamott
        > > www.cnc-n-signs.com
        > > Pontiac, MI 48340
        > > 248-812-1556 leave a message
        > > or return an Email mnwolgamott@... <mailto:mnwolgamott%40yahoo.com>
        > >
        > > From: donc010 <don@... <mailto:don%40caruana.org>>
        > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:20 AM
        > > Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
        > >
        > > Â
        > > We have a weird issue that has us stumped and hopefully someone can
        > > help. I'm not quite sure exactly what to call it, so let me describe it.
        > >
        > > We'll start out cutting fine, no issues. Then after a bit, it will
        > > suddenly completely lose it's way on the horizontal axis. For example,
        > > last night we were watching it and instead of the 45 degree or so line
        > > you would expect in the letter X, it was more like a 75 or 80 degree
        > > line on the table.
        > >
        > > The main issue is the horizontal but once the above starts happening,
        > > it can get a little wonky on the y-axis as well (z-axis seems to be
        > > okay so far) but only sightly so.
        > >
        > > We tried swapping the inputs from x and y (to eliminate the board and
        > > the parallel port) and the behavior didn't change at all. We can cut a
        > > perfect circle as well. I watched the diagnostics page in Mach 3 the
        > > whole time and nothing funny jumped up at all. It was weird watching
        > > it think it was cutting a perfect X and then on the table seeing what
        > > it was really doing. Eventually we just used 'WWWW XXXX' as a test,
        > > with the Xs being a line right below the Ws but originally the problem
        > > would occur on anything, only after running for a bit.
        > >
        > > Does anyone have any suggestions on what this could be or how better
        > > to nail it down? Or, better yet, how to fix it??
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > Just for grins, put a large capacitor at the power input to your
        > drivers. If you have separate drivers, make sure each has it's own power
        > wires all the way to the power supply. I learned about this from the
        > Gecko site, and it helps.
        >
        > --
        >
        >
        > Ron Thompson
        > On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA
        >
        > There are two kinds of posts on newsgroups.
        > 1. This is what I have done...
        > 2. This is what I think...
        > Be aware of the difference!
        >
        > http://www.ourcadguy.com/
        >
        > http://www.plansandprojects.com My hobby pages are here:
        > http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/
        >
        > Visit the castinghobby FAQ:
        > http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Brian Barker
        Hello, Please check all you connections.. a loose connection would also do what you are seeing. Problems like this get to be a bit hard but at some point you
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello,
          Please check all you connections.. a loose connection would also do what
          you are seeing. Problems like this get to be a bit hard but at some
          point you will find the issue!

          Thanks
          Brian


          On 8/1/2011 8:46 AM, donc010 wrote:
          > Trying to reply to everyone at once here:
          > This is a machine built from buildyourcnc.com (BlackToe) with x and y on chain drive and z on screw drive
          >
          > We watched the frequency on diagnostics and never saw any dips
          >
          > We have .1uF caps on each motor input and also on the estop.
          >
          > It doesn't seem to happen over any particular part of the table, but the x axis gets really bad, then sometimes the y axis will get off, but not as much and the z axis doesn't seem to have had any problems.
          >
          > We've gone through and checked and tightened everything (but are continuing to check and tighten).
          >
          > The machine has been up and running for a while although looking back there were some minor accuracy issues on some older pieces. It just recently went crazy though - we can't even finish a piece now.
          >
          > We've cranked the depth and feeds way down (.04 in/pass, 15 in/min) with no change.
          >
          > Still open to *any* suggestions!!
          > Thanks for the help!
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson<ron@...> wrote:
          >> On 7/31/2011 9:22 AM, Wolgamott M wrote:
          >>> I have bee fighting similar problem for a week now. All of a sudden my
          >>> machine got stupid. I notice it the first time at about 25-30 minutes
          >>> into the cut. next time can happen anywhere any time mostly going from
          >>> Y axis to X axis. On occasion it looses communications with the
          >>> Shuttle which I use as stop button to kill a program, Also noticed
          >>> sometimes it really slows down when it goes goofy.
          >>> Â
          >>> Asked group last week for help, got a lot of good ideas but nothing
          >>> that cured problem. Try toget  most current version of Mach3 stable
          >>> version to download. guess wht need to have connection to internet.
          >>> Internet was one thing group said to remove. Removed all prograns not
          >>> required, especially those that want to phone home. Will not accept
          >>> windows repair as current version on computer is newer than the disk.
          >>> May have to format disk and start over.
          >>> Â
          >>> Trying to set different computer in place today.
          >>> Â
          >>> my setup consists of 4axis hobbycnc board.
          >>> old computer 1350Â mhz AMD
          >>> Windows XP with most upgrades legal license
          >>> Mach3 legal license
          >>> tried to slow axis down for more power
          >>> have not found problem yet and have deadlines to meet.
          >>> Â
          >>> Â
          >>> M. Wolgamott
          >>> www.cnc-n-signs.com
          >>> Pontiac, MI 48340
          >>> 248-812-1556 leave a message
          >>> or return an Email mnwolgamott@...<mailto:mnwolgamott%40yahoo.com>
          >>>
          >>> From: donc010<don@...<mailto:don%40caruana.org>>
          >>> To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
          >>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:20 AM
          >>> Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
          >>>
          >>> Â
          >>> We have a weird issue that has us stumped and hopefully someone can
          >>> help. I'm not quite sure exactly what to call it, so let me describe it.
          >>>
          >>> We'll start out cutting fine, no issues. Then after a bit, it will
          >>> suddenly completely lose it's way on the horizontal axis. For example,
          >>> last night we were watching it and instead of the 45 degree or so line
          >>> you would expect in the letter X, it was more like a 75 or 80 degree
          >>> line on the table.
          >>>
          >>> The main issue is the horizontal but once the above starts happening,
          >>> it can get a little wonky on the y-axis as well (z-axis seems to be
          >>> okay so far) but only sightly so.
          >>>
          >>> We tried swapping the inputs from x and y (to eliminate the board and
          >>> the parallel port) and the behavior didn't change at all. We can cut a
          >>> perfect circle as well. I watched the diagnostics page in Mach 3 the
          >>> whole time and nothing funny jumped up at all. It was weird watching
          >>> it think it was cutting a perfect X and then on the table seeing what
          >>> it was really doing. Eventually we just used 'WWWW XXXX' as a test,
          >>> with the Xs being a line right below the Ws but originally the problem
          >>> would occur on anything, only after running for a bit.
          >>>
          >>> Does anyone have any suggestions on what this could be or how better
          >>> to nail it down? Or, better yet, how to fix it??
          >>>
          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>>
          >>>
          >> Just for grins, put a large capacitor at the power input to your
          >> drivers. If you have separate drivers, make sure each has it's own power
          >> wires all the way to the power supply. I learned about this from the
          >> Gecko site, and it helps.
          >>
          >> --
          >>
          >>
          >> Ron Thompson
          >> On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA
          >>
          >> There are two kinds of posts on newsgroups.
          >> 1. This is what I have done...
          >> 2. This is what I think...
          >> Be aware of the difference!
          >>
          >> http://www.ourcadguy.com/
          >>
          >> http://www.plansandprojects.com My hobby pages are here:
          >> http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/
          >>
          >> Visit the castinghobby FAQ:
          >> http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > www.machsupport.com - Web site AccessYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • donc010
          Another update here...we ve been looking a little more at possible interference and at the where it goes to zero. In this pic
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 1, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Another update here...we've been looking a little more at possible
            interference and at the where it goes to zero. In this pic
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/photos/album/207703808/pic/\
            1643368390/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc>
            (this pic is also in the albums in the group, donc010 - machine
            problem), you can see that the W is lower than the others. The tool path
            on this is the 2nd W from the left is first, then the Ws to the right of
            it, then it works from right to left on the Xs and then finishes up on
            the "first" W which, in this case, is a mess. You can see it starts
            getting sloppy on the 2nd X from the left (the 6th letter it is cutting)
            and obviously gets worse.
            If you look closely, we ran the bit into the board to start and then
            went to "zero" at the end and did it again. By that time, zero is down
            and to the right of the actual zero point where it started.
            Now, here's the interesting thing: this run did much better than
            previous and it coincided with shutting off the wireless card in the
            computer (you can disable the radio without removing the card). We think
            we're pretty sure that the interference is at least making the problem
            worse, if not causing it altogether. So the $64,000 question is what
            sorts of things can cause interference like this and how in the world do
            you get around them?
            We're not sure this is the only issue, but we feel like we've made
            progress at least.
            Thanks!
            Don




            --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "donc010" <don@...> wrote:
            >
            > Trying to reply to everyone at once here:
            > This is a machine built from buildyourcnc.com (BlackToe) with x and y
            on chain drive and z on screw drive
            >
            > We watched the frequency on diagnostics and never saw any dips
            >
            > We have .1uF caps on each motor input and also on the estop.
            >
            > It doesn't seem to happen over any particular part of the table, but
            the x axis gets really bad, then sometimes the y axis will get off, but
            not as much and the z axis doesn't seem to have had any problems.
            >
            > We've gone through and checked and tightened everything (but are
            continuing to check and tighten).
            >
            > The machine has been up and running for a while although looking back
            there were some minor accuracy issues on some older pieces. It just
            recently went crazy though - we can't even finish a piece now.
            >
            > We've cranked the depth and feeds way down (.04 in/pass, 15 in/min)
            with no change.
            >
            > Still open to *any* suggestions!!
            > Thanks for the help!
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson ron@ wrote:
            > >
            > > On 7/31/2011 9:22 AM, Wolgamott M wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I have bee fighting similar problem for a week now. All of a
            sudden my
            > > > machine got stupid. I notice it the first time at about 25-30
            minutes
            > > > into the cut. next time can happen anywhere any time mostly going
            from
            > > > Y axis to X axis. On occasion it looses communications with the
            > > > Shuttle which I use as stop button to kill a program, Also noticed
            > > > sometimes it really slows down when it goes goofy.
            > > > Â
            > > > Asked group last week for help, got a lot of good ideas but
            nothing
            > > > that cured problem. Try toget  most current version of Mach3
            stable
            > > > version to download. guess wht need to have connection to
            internet.
            > > > Internet was one thing group said to remove. Removed all prograns
            not
            > > > required, especially those that want to phone home. Will not
            accept
            > > > windows repair as current version on computer is newer than the
            disk.
            > > > May have to format disk and start over.
            > > > Â
            > > > Trying to set different computer in place today.
            > > > Â
            > > > my setup consists of 4axis hobbycnc board.
            > > > old computer 1350Â mhz AMD
            > > > Windows XP with most upgrades legal license
            > > > Mach3 legal license
            > > > tried to slow axis down for more power
            > > > have not found problem yet and have deadlines to meet.
            > > > Â
            > > > Â
            > > > M. Wolgamott
            > > > www.cnc-n-signs.com
            > > > Pontiac, MI 48340
            > > > 248-812-1556 leave a message
            > > > or return an Email mnwolgamott@ <mailto:mnwolgamott%40yahoo.com>
            > > >
            > > > From: donc010 don@ <mailto:don%40caruana.org>>
            > > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:20 AM
            > > > Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
            > > >
            > > > Â
            > > > We have a weird issue that has us stumped and hopefully someone
            can
            > > > help. I'm not quite sure exactly what to call it, so let me
            describe it.
            > > >
            > > > We'll start out cutting fine, no issues. Then after a bit, it will
            > > > suddenly completely lose it's way on the horizontal axis. For
            example,
            > > > last night we were watching it and instead of the 45 degree or so
            line
            > > > you would expect in the letter X, it was more like a 75 or 80
            degree
            > > > line on the table.
            > > >
            > > > The main issue is the horizontal but once the above starts
            happening,
            > > > it can get a little wonky on the y-axis as well (z-axis seems to
            be
            > > > okay so far) but only sightly so.
            > > >
            > > > We tried swapping the inputs from x and y (to eliminate the board
            and
            > > > the parallel port) and the behavior didn't change at all. We can
            cut a
            > > > perfect circle as well. I watched the diagnostics page in Mach 3
            the
            > > > whole time and nothing funny jumped up at all. It was weird
            watching
            > > > it think it was cutting a perfect X and then on the table seeing
            what
            > > > it was really doing. Eventually we just used 'WWWW XXXX' as a
            test,
            > > > with the Xs being a line right below the Ws but originally the
            problem
            > > > would occur on anything, only after running for a bit.
            > > >
            > > > Does anyone have any suggestions on what this could be or how
            better
            > > > to nail it down? Or, better yet, how to fix it??
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • hydroxy@rogers.com
            Using shielded cable with one end of the shielding grounded, preferably on the control box end. This will put all air-born interference issues to rest. Other
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 1, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Using shielded cable with one end of the shielding grounded, preferably on the control box end. This will put all air-born interference issues to rest.

              Other possible interference would be directly through the power supplies. If you are using linear supplies this is less likely, but still possible.

              Chris

              --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "donc010" <don@...> wrote:
              >
              > Another update here...we've been looking a little more at possible
              > interference and at the where it goes to zero. In this pic
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/photos/album/207703808/pic/\
              > 1643368390/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc>
              > (this pic is also in the albums in the group, donc010 - machine
              > problem), you can see that the W is lower than the others. The tool path
              > on this is the 2nd W from the left is first, then the Ws to the right of
              > it, then it works from right to left on the Xs and then finishes up on
              > the "first" W which, in this case, is a mess. You can see it starts
              > getting sloppy on the 2nd X from the left (the 6th letter it is cutting)
              > and obviously gets worse.
              > If you look closely, we ran the bit into the board to start and then
              > went to "zero" at the end and did it again. By that time, zero is down
              > and to the right of the actual zero point where it started.
              > Now, here's the interesting thing: this run did much better than
              > previous and it coincided with shutting off the wireless card in the
              > computer (you can disable the radio without removing the card). We think
              > we're pretty sure that the interference is at least making the problem
              > worse, if not causing it altogether. So the $64,000 question is what
              > sorts of things can cause interference like this and how in the world do
              > you get around them?
              > We're not sure this is the only issue, but we feel like we've made
              > progress at least.
              > Thanks!
              > Don
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "donc010" <don@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Trying to reply to everyone at once here:
              > > This is a machine built from buildyourcnc.com (BlackToe) with x and y
              > on chain drive and z on screw drive
              > >
              > > We watched the frequency on diagnostics and never saw any dips
              > >
              > > We have .1uF caps on each motor input and also on the estop.
              > >
              > > It doesn't seem to happen over any particular part of the table, but
              > the x axis gets really bad, then sometimes the y axis will get off, but
              > not as much and the z axis doesn't seem to have had any problems.
              > >
              > > We've gone through and checked and tightened everything (but are
              > continuing to check and tighten).
              > >
              > > The machine has been up and running for a while although looking back
              > there were some minor accuracy issues on some older pieces. It just
              > recently went crazy though - we can't even finish a piece now.
              > >
              > > We've cranked the depth and feeds way down (.04 in/pass, 15 in/min)
              > with no change.
              > >
              > > Still open to *any* suggestions!!
              > > Thanks for the help!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson ron@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > On 7/31/2011 9:22 AM, Wolgamott M wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I have bee fighting similar problem for a week now. All of a
              > sudden my
              > > > > machine got stupid. I notice it the first time at about 25-30
              > minutes
              > > > > into the cut. next time can happen anywhere any time mostly going
              > from
              > > > > Y axis to X axis. On occasion it looses communications with the
              > > > > Shuttle which I use as stop button to kill a program, Also noticed
              > > > > sometimes it really slows down when it goes goofy.
              > > > > Â
              > > > > Asked group last week for help, got a lot of good ideas but
              > nothing
              > > > > that cured problem. Try toget  most current version of Mach3
              > stable
              > > > > version to download. guess wht need to have connection to
              > internet.
              > > > > Internet was one thing group said to remove. Removed all prograns
              > not
              > > > > required, especially those that want to phone home. Will not
              > accept
              > > > > windows repair as current version on computer is newer than the
              > disk.
              > > > > May have to format disk and start over.
              > > > > Â
              > > > > Trying to set different computer in place today.
              > > > > Â
              > > > > my setup consists of 4axis hobbycnc board.
              > > > > old computer 1350Â mhz AMD
              > > > > Windows XP with most upgrades legal license
              > > > > Mach3 legal license
              > > > > tried to slow axis down for more power
              > > > > have not found problem yet and have deadlines to meet.
              > > > > Â
              > > > > Â
              > > > > M. Wolgamott
              > > > > www.cnc-n-signs.com
              > > > > Pontiac, MI 48340
              > > > > 248-812-1556 leave a message
              > > > > or return an Email mnwolgamott@ <mailto:mnwolgamott%40yahoo.com>
              > > > >
              > > > > From: donc010 don@ <mailto:don%40caruana.org>>
              > > > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:20 AM
              > > > > Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
              > > > >
              > > > > Â
              > > > > We have a weird issue that has us stumped and hopefully someone
              > can
              > > > > help. I'm not quite sure exactly what to call it, so let me
              > describe it.
              > > > >
              > > > > We'll start out cutting fine, no issues. Then after a bit, it will
              > > > > suddenly completely lose it's way on the horizontal axis. For
              > example,
              > > > > last night we were watching it and instead of the 45 degree or so
              > line
              > > > > you would expect in the letter X, it was more like a 75 or 80
              > degree
              > > > > line on the table.
              > > > >
              > > > > The main issue is the horizontal but once the above starts
              > happening,
              > > > > it can get a little wonky on the y-axis as well (z-axis seems to
              > be
              > > > > okay so far) but only sightly so.
              > > > >
              > > > > We tried swapping the inputs from x and y (to eliminate the board
              > and
              > > > > the parallel port) and the behavior didn't change at all. We can
              > cut a
              > > > > perfect circle as well. I watched the diagnostics page in Mach 3
              > the
              > > > > whole time and nothing funny jumped up at all. It was weird
              > watching
              > > > > it think it was cutting a perfect X and then on the table seeing
              > what
              > > > > it was really doing. Eventually we just used 'WWWW XXXX' as a
              > test,
              > > > > with the Xs being a line right below the Ws but originally the
              > problem
              > > > > would occur on anything, only after running for a bit.
              > > > >
              > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions on what this could be or how
              > better
              > > > > to nail it down? Or, better yet, how to fix it??
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • ryersong
              At the risk of being called a smarty pants...... First; let me state my qualifications or lack thereof. I am new to this list and am building a BlackToe and
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 2, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                At the risk of being called a smarty pants...... First; let me state my qualifications or lack thereof. I am new to this list and am building a BlackToe and am in process of wiring up the electronics but it is by no means finished. Until my exposure to a $hopBot at the local TechShop, I could barely spell CNC. On the plus side I was an EMI/EMC engineer (among other things) until I retired in '05. So here we go.....

                I don't think that the .1 caps on the motor leads are a good idea. I am assuming that they are on the motor side of the driver. The motors are complex inductive devices and the addition of that much capacitance could well (technical term) discombublate them. If the caps are on the breakout board motor input side they may also cause some real problems.

                Take 'em all off.

                It might make sense to disconnect the switches and short them (if they are N/C) to eliminate the possibility that their wiring is picking up noise. I agree fully about grounding the shield at one end of the cable -- at the breakout board. Leave the .1 caps on the switches.

                Are all the supply wires going between the breakout board and the controllers separate? If not are they nice heavy wires? It might make sense to run separate + and - wires between the controllers and the supply to eliminate and voltage drop related problems.

                --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "hydroxy@..." <hydroxy@...> wrote:
                >
                > Using shielded cable with one end of the shielding grounded, preferably on the control box end. This will put all air-born interference issues to rest.
                >
                > Other possible interference would be directly through the power supplies. If you are using linear supplies this is less likely, but still possible.
                >
                > Chris
                >
                > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "donc010" <don@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Another update here...we've been looking a little more at possible
                > > interference and at the where it goes to zero. In this pic
                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/photos/album/207703808/pic/\
                > > 1643368390/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc>
                > > (this pic is also in the albums in the group, donc010 - machine
                > > problem), you can see that the W is lower than the others. The tool path
                > > on this is the 2nd W from the left is first, then the Ws to the right of
                > > it, then it works from right to left on the Xs and then finishes up on
                > > the "first" W which, in this case, is a mess. You can see it starts
                > > getting sloppy on the 2nd X from the left (the 6th letter it is cutting)
                > > and obviously gets worse.
                > > If you look closely, we ran the bit into the board to start and then
                > > went to "zero" at the end and did it again. By that time, zero is down
                > > and to the right of the actual zero point where it started.
                > > Now, here's the interesting thing: this run did much better than
                > > previous and it coincided with shutting off the wireless card in the
                > > computer (you can disable the radio without removing the card). We think
                > > we're pretty sure that the interference is at least making the problem
                > > worse, if not causing it altogether. So the $64,000 question is what
                > > sorts of things can cause interference like this and how in the world do
                > > you get around them?
                > > We're not sure this is the only issue, but we feel like we've made
                > > progress at least.
                > > Thanks!
                > > Don
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "donc010" <don@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Trying to reply to everyone at once here:
                > > > This is a machine built from buildyourcnc.com (BlackToe) with x and y
                > > on chain drive and z on screw drive
                > > >
                > > > We watched the frequency on diagnostics and never saw any dips
                > > >
                > > > We have .1uF caps on each motor input and also on the estop.
                > > >
                > > > It doesn't seem to happen over any particular part of the table, but
                > > the x axis gets really bad, then sometimes the y axis will get off, but
                > > not as much and the z axis doesn't seem to have had any problems.
                > > >
                > > > We've gone through and checked and tightened everything (but are
                > > continuing to check and tighten).
                > > >
                > > > The machine has been up and running for a while although looking back
                > > there were some minor accuracy issues on some older pieces. It just
                > > recently went crazy though - we can't even finish a piece now.
                > > >
                > > > We've cranked the depth and feeds way down (.04 in/pass, 15 in/min)
                > > with no change.
                > > >
                > > > Still open to *any* suggestions!!
                > > > Thanks for the help!
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson ron@ wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > On 7/31/2011 9:22 AM, Wolgamott M wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I have bee fighting similar problem for a week now. All of a
                > > sudden my
                > > > > > machine got stupid. I notice it the first time at about 25-30
                > > minutes
                > > > > > into the cut. next time can happen anywhere any time mostly going
                > > from
                > > > > > Y axis to X axis. On occasion it looses communications with the
                > > > > > Shuttle which I use as stop button to kill a program, Also noticed
                > > > > > sometimes it really slows down when it goes goofy.
                > > > > > Â
                > > > > > Asked group last week for help, got a lot of good ideas but
                > > nothing
                > > > > > that cured problem. Try toget  most current version of Mach3
                > > stable
                > > > > > version to download. guess wht need to have connection to
                > > internet.
                > > > > > Internet was one thing group said to remove. Removed all prograns
                > > not
                > > > > > required, especially those that want to phone home. Will not
                > > accept
                > > > > > windows repair as current version on computer is newer than the
                > > disk.
                > > > > > May have to format disk and start over.
                > > > > > Â
                > > > > > Trying to set different computer in place today.
                > > > > > Â
                > > > > > my setup consists of 4axis hobbycnc board.
                > > > > > old computer 1350Â mhz AMD
                > > > > > Windows XP with most upgrades legal license
                > > > > > Mach3 legal license
                > > > > > tried to slow axis down for more power
                > > > > > have not found problem yet and have deadlines to meet.
                > > > > > Â
                > > > > > Â
                > > > > > M. Wolgamott
                > > > > > www.cnc-n-signs.com
                > > > > > Pontiac, MI 48340
                > > > > > 248-812-1556 leave a message
                > > > > > or return an Email mnwolgamott@ <mailto:mnwolgamott%40yahoo.com>
                > > > > >
                > > > > > From: donc010 don@ <mailto:don%40caruana.org>>
                > > > > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                > > <mailto:mach1mach2cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:20 AM
                > > > > > Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Â
                > > > > > We have a weird issue that has us stumped and hopefully someone
                > > can
                > > > > > help. I'm not quite sure exactly what to call it, so let me
                > > describe it.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > We'll start out cutting fine, no issues. Then after a bit, it will
                > > > > > suddenly completely lose it's way on the horizontal axis. For
                > > example,
                > > > > > last night we were watching it and instead of the 45 degree or so
                > > line
                > > > > > you would expect in the letter X, it was more like a 75 or 80
                > > degree
                > > > > > line on the table.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The main issue is the horizontal but once the above starts
                > > happening,
                > > > > > it can get a little wonky on the y-axis as well (z-axis seems to
                > > be
                > > > > > okay so far) but only sightly so.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > We tried swapping the inputs from x and y (to eliminate the board
                > > and
                > > > > > the parallel port) and the behavior didn't change at all. We can
                > > cut a
                > > > > > perfect circle as well. I watched the diagnostics page in Mach 3
                > > the
                > > > > > whole time and nothing funny jumped up at all. It was weird
                > > watching
                > > > > > it think it was cutting a perfect X and then on the table seeing
                > > what
                > > > > > it was really doing. Eventually we just used 'WWWW XXXX' as a
                > > test,
                > > > > > with the Xs being a line right below the Ws but originally the
                > > problem
                > > > > > would occur on anything, only after running for a bit.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions on what this could be or how
                > > better
                > > > > > to nail it down? Or, better yet, how to fix it??
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • hydroxy@rogers.com
                He already gave the system details in an earlier post. It s a chain drive system. You may still be right on the money though, but the diagnostic will be
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  He already gave the system details in an earlier post. It's a chain drive system. You may still be right on the money though, but the diagnostic will be different.

                  You could try disconnecting your chain and check that the system moves without binding when driven by hand. Turn all pulleys by hand very slowly, then a little bit quicker, maybe 10-20rpm, feeling for any roughness or play in the bearings. If you feel any roughness at all, it will be greatly amplified with chain tension, and could cause the problem. Play in the bearings is also a bad sign, as the balls inside would likely be loose in this case and could shift and bind unexpectedly and usually only at higher speeds, somewhat randomly. When checking the pulleys also try adding some side-load on the pulley by hand, or, even better, use a short piece of chain, pulling on both ends of the chain as you turn the pulley with it. If bearings are to blame you will find it with careful inspection using this method.

                  I'm not sure if you used all new bearings when you built it or not, but even if you did if they were cheap bearings they can fail in a hurry! Probably worth checking.

                  Chris

                  --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "hemsworthlad" <d.s.armstrong@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Sounds like you have something binding or sticking causeing missed steps. . . what kind of machine is it.?
                  > Has it worked ok before and just suddenly started doing this or is it a new build your testing for first time.?
                  > Check for worn or loose carriage bearings,disconnect screws from motors and check for tightness, check ballnuts or what ever kind of nut for wear.
                  > Chances are it will turn out to be a mechanical issue, a sticking bearing or something silly like this, doesn't take much esp if motors are on the small side.!
                  >
                  > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "donc010" <don@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > If you bring it back to zero, it's off by some amount of distance when it gets there. Have no idea which end of cause and effect that is though.
                  > >
                  > > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Wolgamott M <mnwolgamott@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Mine just looses position, and sometimes connection with Shuttle Pro, or severly effects operation of Shuttle Pro.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > M. Wolgamott
                  > > > www.cnc-n-signs.com
                  > > > Pontiac, MI 48340
                  > > > 248-812-1556 leave a message
                  > > > or return an Email mnwolgamott@
                  > > >
                  > > > From: art2 <fenerty@>
                  > > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 10:31 AM
                  > > > Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >  
                  > > > Hi:
                  > > >
                  > > > Does it go back to zero..or has it lost position when this occurs?
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks,
                  > > > Art
                  > > > www.gearotic.com
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: qconvers@
                  > > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 9:33 AM
                  > > > Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
                  > > >
                  > > > Have you tried slowing your feeds down?
                  > > >
                  > > > Dave K
                  > > >
                  > > > In a message dated 31/07/2011 13:21:06 GMT Daylight Time, don@
                  > > > writes:
                  > > >
                  > > > We have a weird issue that has us stumped and hopefully someone can help.
                  > > > I'm not quite sure exactly what to call it, so let me describe it.
                  > > >
                  > > > We'll start out cutting fine, no issues. Then after a bit, it will
                  > > > suddenly completely lose it's way on the horizontal axis. For example, last night
                  > > > we were watching it and instead of the 45 degree or so line you would
                  > > > expect in the letter X, it was more like a 75 or 80 degree line on the table.
                  > > >
                  > > > The main issue is the horizontal but once the above starts happening, it
                  > > > can get a little wonky on the y-axis as well (z-axis seems to be okay so
                  > > > far) but only sightly so.
                  > > >
                  > > > We tried swapping the inputs from x and y (to eliminate the board and the
                  > > > parallel port) and the behavior didn't change at all. We can cut a perfect
                  > > > circle as well. I watched the diagnostics page in Mach 3 the whole time and
                  > > > nothing funny jumped up at all. It was weird watching it think it was
                  > > > cutting a perfect X and then on the table seeing what it was really doing.
                  > > > Eventually we just used 'WWWW XXXX' as a test, with the Xs being a line right
                  > > > below the Ws but originally the problem would occur on anything, only after
                  > > > running for a bit.
                  > > >
                  > > > Does anyone have any suggestions on what this could be or how better to
                  > > > nail it down? Or, better yet, how to fix it??
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > > www.machsupport.com - Web site AccessYahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • hydroxy@rogers.com
                  To me this screams mechanical. The software and electronics don t care about such things, so either you don t have enough power to the motors to drive at the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 3, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    To me this screams mechanical. The software and electronics don't care about such things, so either you don't have enough power to the motors to drive at the feedrate and depth chosen, or there is some mechanics binding, robbing you of the required power. Follow hemsworthlad's instructions and check for binding, bad bearings, bad drive nut, dirty or rusting lead screw, etc... Also try some DRY lubricant if you'd like, such as graphite or teflon (graphite is generally much cheaper and works great). Oil is only recommended for low-dust environments, fine if you're only doing metals, otherwise stick to dry-lube so it doesn't pick up the dust and cause more binding than you had before!

                    If this isn't it then perhaps your motors are under-powered, in which case you're looking at either a better driver or better motors, or both.

                    Chris


                    --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Wolgamott M <mnwolgamott@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I have cut back on depth of cut and higher feed rate this looks better, have not ruined a piece since this change.
                    >
                    >
                    > M. Wolgamott
                    > www.cnc-n-signs.com
                    > Pontiac, MI 48340
                    > 248-812-1556 leave a message
                    > or return an Email mnwolgamott@...
                    >
                    > From: art2 <fenerty@...>
                    > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:15 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Help figuring this problem out
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    > If your losing position, then its likely sticking, motor overheating, noisy power supply or something external. It CAN still be cpu related, but more rare. Keep an eye on the frequency on the diags page.. if it drops alot or sticks low for a bit, then it can be the cpu slowing down for some reason, or an interfering process...
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Art
                    > www.gearotic.com
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: hemsworthlad
                    > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:23 PM
                    > Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Help figuring this problem out
                    >
                    > Sounds like you have something binding or sticking causeing missed steps. . . what kind of machine is it.?
                    > Has it worked ok before and just suddenly started doing this or is it a new build your testing for first time.?
                    > Check for worn or loose carriage bearings,disconnect screws from motors and check for tightness, check ballnuts or what ever kind of nut for wear.
                    > Chances are it will turn out to be a mechanical issue, a sticking bearing or something silly like this, doesn't take much esp if motors are on the small side.!
                    >
                    > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "donc010" <don@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > If you bring it back to zero, it's off by some amount of distance when it gets there. Have no idea which end of cause and effect that is though.
                    > >
                    > > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Wolgamott M <mnwolgamott@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Mine just looses position, and sometimes connection with Shuttle Pro, or severly effects operation of Shuttle Pro.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > M. Wolgamott
                    > > > www.cnc-n-signs.com
                    > > > Pontiac, MI 48340
                    > > > 248-812-1556 leave a message
                    > > > or return an Email mnwolgamott@
                    > > >
                    > > > From: art2 <fenerty@>
                    > > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 10:31 AM
                    > > > Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Â
                    > > > Hi:
                    > > >
                    > > > Does it go back to zero..or has it lost position when this occurs?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks,
                    > > > Art
                    > > > www.gearotic.com
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: qconvers@
                    > > > To: mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 9:33 AM
                    > > > Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Help figuring this problem out
                    > > >
                    > > > Have you tried slowing your feeds down?
                    > > >
                    > > > Dave K
                    > > >
                    > > > In a message dated 31/07/2011 13:21:06 GMT Daylight Time, don@
                    > > > writes:
                    > > >
                    > > > We have a weird issue that has us stumped and hopefully someone can help.
                    > > > I'm not quite sure exactly what to call it, so let me describe it.
                    > > >
                    > > > We'll start out cutting fine, no issues. Then after a bit, it will
                    > > > suddenly completely lose it's way on the horizontal axis. For example, last night
                    > > > we were watching it and instead of the 45 degree or so line you would
                    > > > expect in the letter X, it was more like a 75 or 80 degree line on the table.
                    > > >
                    > > > The main issue is the horizontal but once the above starts happening, it
                    > > > can get a little wonky on the y-axis as well (z-axis seems to be okay so
                    > > > far) but only sightly so.
                    > > >
                    > > > We tried swapping the inputs from x and y (to eliminate the board and the
                    > > > parallel port) and the behavior didn't change at all. We can cut a perfect
                    > > > circle as well. I watched the diagnostics page in Mach 3 the whole time and
                    > > > nothing funny jumped up at all. It was weird watching it think it was
                    > > > cutting a perfect X and then on the table seeing what it was really doing.
                    > > > Eventually we just used 'WWWW XXXX' as a test, with the Xs being a line right
                    > > > below the Ws but originally the problem would occur on anything, only after
                    > > > running for a bit.
                    > > >
                    > > > Does anyone have any suggestions on what this could be or how better to
                    > > > nail it down? Or, better yet, how to fix it??
                    > > >
                    > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > > www.machsupport.com - Web site AccessYahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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