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rev, pause and feedhold was Re: F12 key (and some other 6.0b issues)

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  • ballendo
    Art, Snips, inserts below... ... ... But we WILL have a reliable Ver number accessible somewhere, correct?! (As I said, pick your
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 1, 2004
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      Art,

      Snips, inserts below...

      --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Art <fenerty@a...> wrote:
      <re splash screen rev ref>
      >Good idea, too much to keep up with, I'll remove it entirely...

      But we WILL have a reliable Ver number accessible somewhere,
      correct?! (As I said, pick your own spot, but it REALLY would be nice
      to KNOW that a particular rev IS a particular rev.) Pretty please<G>

      >>feedhold needs to be persistant on ALL screens which can possibly
      >>be switched to during machine movement. Either provide a means to
      >>lock out certain screens during movement, or make feedhold a
      >>persistant control. (Former has long term advantages, latter is
      >>quicker/easier)
      >
      >You mean like in pause...?

      I'm not sure I understand what you're asking; but let me make a
      distinction between feedhold and pause, which may help (And that I've
      wanted to bring up for some time!)

      BOTH pause and feedhold will stop ALL axis motion.
      Pause will eventually time out. Feedhold never will.

      BOTH pause and feedhold may control/toggle auxillary functions of the
      machine during the stopped axis motion, or not. Different controls
      use different strategies. You've dealt with this in a related area
      already in your "what to do on a stop" setup grouping in the logic
      dialog.

      There are similar questions to be answered about pause and Feedhold.
      (Unless you adopt the lowest common denominator of stopping axis
      motion ONLY.) Does coolant stop during a pause?(best that it doesn't,
      since a pause in axis motion at the bottom of a drilled hole is the
      reason for G82--it's called a "dwell" there. I can't think of a
      single commercial CNC control which doesn't use dwell and pause to
      mean the same thing; the only distinction being that a "dwell" is
      usually expected to be shorter than a "pause".

      So we have at our disposal: Run, dwell, pause, feedhold, stop, and
      estop. (Each has a slightly different meaning. All the different
      meanings are meaningFUL, IMO...) I know a feedHOLD can be "released",
      but a stop must be re-started. Small things perhaps. But small things
      add up too <G>

      Ballendo

      P.S. It took me quite awhile to get past my inner "could start at any
      time" fear after pressing a "pause" button on Mach2. I'd sure like to
      see "feedhold" used where appropriate. (And to have the
      possible "side actions/effects" covered by each defined at least in
      my docs, if not during setup). You know: declared variables and
      headers<G>

      <See next message for a related item, IMO important enough for a
      separate post>
    • ballendo
      Hello Art, Mach2 users, This is a continuation of the previous post... One of the states we have available is run . To get there we press a key we ve
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 1, 2004
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        Hello Art, Mach2 users,

        This is a continuation of the previous post...

        One of the states we have available is "run". To get there we press a
        key we've identified as "Cycle Start".
        (Alt-R at present, F12 eventually/hopefully, and likely F9 soon)

        What I'm about to say won't be popular. Safety never sells. We need
        to add a confirmation to a PC keyboard single keypress Cycle-start.
        A "Motion is about to begin. Are you sure? Press ENTER to continue."
        type thing... (I hear the cries, but stay with me<G>)

        As Mach2 moves from the dedicated hobbyist to the off-the-shelf OEM
        customer; this becomes more important. As CNC itself machines move
        from being used by folks who've been "around" machinery their whole
        lives to folks who only recently became "machinery users", it becomes
        EVEN MORE IMPORTANT.

        Commercial CNC machines are able to use a WELL-defined, single
        location'ed/never changed, apart from everything else except stop,
        physically identifiable by its green color; switch.

        On the other hand, we have a POORLY identified, possibly CHANGED
        location-depending upon user, NEAR at least one or two other keys
        which may be pressed by mistake, SAME look, COLOR and shape as every
        other key; switch. (unless we use a KE, but most don't/won't...)

        I'd like to see a confirmation of cycle start be made the default.
        The ability to turn this default off IS made available, but a legal
        acceptance of responsibility (EULA-like) must be checked to do so.

        Next, I'd like to see the key used for this be a defined, REQUIRED
        key. Like estop, the cycle start is a VERY important key. There is
        something to be said for uniformity of safety-related items. It'd be
        nice to know that in EVERY Mach2 installation the F12/F9 key will
        start motion! (at least those identifiable AS Mach2 installations,
        considering that the ocx makes it possible to have the engine without
        the interface) It would also be safe.

        On a commercial contol I've never seen before, I can walk up and
        IMMEDIATELY know how to accomplish three important things; ESTOP,
        stop, and cycle start. It's nearly an impossibility that I'd use one
        of these "accidentally". And that's NOT the case with the present
        Mach2...

        ESCape is the ONLY key on a PC keyboard which shares the singularity
        of the start and stop keys on commercial machine controls. And we're
        using it for stop, which is good.

        Once we leave the esc key and its ALWAYS in the upper left corner
        position, all other keys have the same "priority" of placement.
        (Spacebar might be deemed an exception, and again we use it to STOP
        motion; another good thing. This should also be a universal
        requirement, IMO.)

        On desktop keyboards, the keys I've previously identified stand clear-
        est, and therefore IMO should be chosen as the default. F12 hasn't
        worked out so far--I still have hope--, but F9 is a good substitute,
        for the reasons also previously given. But, much as I'm personally
        annoyed by having to confirm something I've already requested; I
        think its in your best interest to CYA, and make these changes...

        Next, we need a "spinner" or some other screen item which identifies
        that the machine is either moving or in a state of dwell/pause. IOW,
        something which prevents us from sticking our head/hands in to see
        what's wrong after we've accidentally programmed something which is
        causing the machine axes to not move. (Think of "checking the fuse"
        of fireworks<G>) The fact that Mach2 does not alarm on unrecognised
        Gcode is one reason for this(And I'd like to see that looked into),
        but even if it did we STILL need an indicator telling us to stay
        clear of the machine work area that is EASILY evident ANY TIME a
        Machine cycle is in effect.

        Final thought: There seems to be a sense of "small", or "safe"
        machines when folks discuss Mach2. But the control capability has
        reached the point that serious,large, heavy, powerful, dare I say
        dangerous! machines will soon be sporting Mach2 controls... (I know
        that many already do)

        And there IS something to be learned from the 50+ years of CNC
        controller development. Let's have some safety thrown into the mix...

        Comments invited,

        Ballendo
      • doug6949
        Good point Ballendo. The one commercial PC based cnc I m familiar with uses dedicated I/O for estop, cycle stop and cycle start buttons. This is deliberate and
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 1, 2004
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          Good point Ballendo.

          The one commercial PC based cnc I'm familiar with uses dedicated I/O
          for estop, cycle stop and cycle start buttons. This is deliberate and
          cannot be changed. It forces the installer to use dedicated buttons
          for these three functions. The control manufacturer cites legal issues
          as the reason behind it.

          I've proposed this method before. It was one of the reasons I felt we
          needed more I/O. Perhaps it's time to take another look.

          Doug

          --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>
          wrote:

          > On a commercial contol I've never seen before, I can walk up and
          > IMMEDIATELY know how to accomplish three important things; ESTOP,
          > stop, and cycle start. It's nearly an impossibility that I'd use one
          > of these "accidentally". And that's NOT the case with the present
          > Mach2...
        • Cletus L. Berkeley
          Although new to this group I am following the development of Mach2 with great interest. As I have just built and now operate a CNC Engraver/Router. Very valid
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 1, 2004
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            Although new to this group I am following the development of Mach2 with great interest. As I have just built and now operate a CNC Engraver/Router.
            Very valid points indeed Ballendo.
            It's far too easy to get oneself into trouble operating automated machinery from a PC keyboard even if it's not a big powerful beast, as the small ones usually have fast rotating, sharp tooling that start and stop instantly.
            Start Cycle verification is a definite must IMO and should be the default setting (this is also a situation where audible feedback ...voice, whistle, bell, etc.) can play an important role. A software E-STOP should be considered as a secondary only the primary should always be a hardwired hardware implemented power shutdown device, the good oldfashioned way complete with a BIG red striker knob located for easy access. I would hate to get caught up in a painful situation with a running machine and with massive amounts of adrenaline pumping try to find the "ESC" key.

            BTW I admire and commend Art's approach to his software development, a great product and it continues to become better.
            Just some ramblings from this old fart.
            Great group all.
            Cheers, Cletus
            ballendo <ballendo@...> wrote:
            Hello Art, Mach2 users,

            This is a continuation of the previous post...

            One of the states we have available is "run". To get there we press a
            key we've identified as "Cycle Start".
            (Alt-R at present, F12 eventually/hopefully, and likely F9 soon)

            What I'm about to say won't be popular. Safety never sells. We need
            to add a confirmation to a PC keyboard single keypress Cycle-start.
            A "Motion is about to begin. Are you sure? Press ENTER to continue."
            type thing... (I hear the cries, but stay with me<G>)

            As Mach2 moves from the dedicated hobbyist to the off-the-shelf OEM
            customer; this becomes more important. As CNC itself machines move
            from being used by folks who've been "around" machinery their whole
            lives to folks who only recently became "machinery users", it becomes
            EVEN MORE IMPORTANT.

            Commercial CNC machines are able to use a WELL-defined, single
            location'ed/never changed, apart from everything else except stop,
            physically identifiable by its green color; switch.

            On the other hand, we have a POORLY identified, possibly CHANGED
            location-depending upon user, NEAR at least one or two other keys
            which may be pressed by mistake, SAME look, COLOR and shape as every
            other key; switch. (unless we use a KE, but most don't/won't...)

            I'd like to see a confirmation of cycle start be made the default.
            The ability to turn this default off IS made available, but a legal
            acceptance of responsibility (EULA-like) must be checked to do so.

            Next, I'd like to see the key used for this be a defined, REQUIRED
            key. Like estop, the cycle start is a VERY important key. There is
            something to be said for uniformity of safety-related items. It'd be
            nice to know that in EVERY Mach2 installation the F12/F9 key will
            start motion! (at least those identifiable AS Mach2 installations,
            considering that the ocx makes it possible to have the engine without
            the interface) It would also be safe.

            On a commercial contol I've never seen before, I can walk up and
            IMMEDIATELY know how to accomplish three important things; ESTOP,
            stop, and cycle start. It's nearly an impossibility that I'd use one
            of these "accidentally". And that's NOT the case with the present
            Mach2...

            ESCape is the ONLY key on a PC keyboard which shares the singularity
            of the start and stop keys on commercial machine controls. And we're
            using it for stop, which is good.

            Once we leave the esc key and its ALWAYS in the upper left corner
            position, all other keys have the same "priority" of placement.
            (Spacebar might be deemed an exception, and again we use it to STOP
            motion; another good thing. This should also be a universal
            requirement, IMO.)

            On desktop keyboards, the keys I've previously identified stand clear-
            est, and therefore IMO should be chosen as the default. F12 hasn't
            worked out so far--I still have hope--, but F9 is a good substitute,
            for the reasons also previously given. But, much as I'm personally
            annoyed by having to confirm something I've already requested; I
            think its in your best interest to CYA, and make these changes...

            Next, we need a "spinner" or some other screen item which identifies
            that the machine is either moving or in a state of dwell/pause. IOW,
            something which prevents us from sticking our head/hands in to see
            what's wrong after we've accidentally programmed something which is
            causing the machine axes to not move. (Think of "checking the fuse"
            of fireworks<G>) The fact that Mach2 does not alarm on unrecognised
            Gcode is one reason for this(And I'd like to see that looked into),
            but even if it did we STILL need an indicator telling us to stay
            clear of the machine work area that is EASILY evident ANY TIME a
            Machine cycle is in effect.

            Final thought: There seems to be a sense of "small", or "safe"
            machines when folks discuss Mach2. But the control capability has
            reached the point that serious,large, heavy, powerful, dare I say
            dangerous! machines will soon be sporting Mach2 controls... (I know
            that many already do)

            And there IS something to be learned from the 50+ years of CNC
            controller development. Let's have some safety thrown into the mix...

            Comments invited,

            Ballendo




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          • Art
            Bengt: The problem there woudl be the screen labeling to reflect the different layout.... Art www.artofcnc.ca ... From: bsjoelund
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 1, 2004
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              Bengt:

              The problem there woudl be the screen labeling to reflect the different
              layout....

              Art
              www.artofcnc.ca

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "bsjoelund" <tecnoconsult@...>
              To: <mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 5:10 PM
              Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: F12 key


              > Hi Art,
              > Missunderstanding I think, me and my swinglish... :)
              > what I meant is to use it for dedicated Mach2 functions, if it is
              > possible to make all languages available on keyboards I hope it would
              > be possible to have *mach2* "keyboardlayout" and load this as a
              > second language to get all the functions we need to have. Am I
              > totally off the road here ??
              >
              > Bengt
              >
              > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, Art <fenerty@a...> wrote:
              > > Hi Bengt:
              > >
              > > Had I considered other languages when I started all this, it
              > woudl be
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Mark Tucker
              Ballendo I recently brought the subject up, of cycle stop / Feedhold. Art informed me that a true cycle stop / Feedhold could not be implemented. 1.Pause -
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 1, 2004
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                Ballendo

                I recently brought the subject up, of cycle stop / Feedhold.
                Art informed me that a true cycle stop / Feedhold could not be
                implemented.

                1.Pause - Does not work in time critical areas like G31 etc.So this
                does not always work when required.

                2.Stop - Makes an immediate stop with no deceleration.So my 200lb
                Gantry jerks to a halt and loses steps when running at 4000mm/min
                feed.

                So basically there is no safe way to stop in Mach2 !!!!.That i am
                aware of ?.

                Thanks
                Mark
              • ballendo
                Mark, I don t follow your logic. Mach2 works correctly IMO with regard to feedhold and stop.(except that feedhold is improperly called pause, and its side
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                  Mark, I don't follow your logic.

                  Mach2 works correctly IMO with regard to feedhold and stop.(except
                  that feedhold is improperly called pause, and its side effects are
                  not spelled out anywhere<G>)

                  A feedhold should decelerate to a stop as quickly as possible. Then
                  axis motion should only be available using the cycle start.

                  The tricky part with ANY CVV (Constant Vector Velocity) controller is
                  that "as quickly as possible" does not necessarily mean immediate! To
                  accomplish CVV, moves MUST be queued up in a buffer, OR you must pre-
                  process them.(or you use 5 pc's.see below!) The problem with pre-
                  processing is that you cannot make feedrate changes or stop during
                  the run, because then the file would need to be RE-pre-processed!<G>

                  Mach2 allows real-time modification of feedrate DURING CVV moves.
                  So Mach2 does as other CVV controls and stops at the end of the
                  currently processing command. Perhaps more than one, if the moves are
                  short, and the decel required to maintain position is long...

                  If this ramp down time is too great, YOU have to decide if it's time
                  to initiate a stop or estop, rather than a feedhold.

                  Where again Mach2 behaves correctly. Stop and estop should do exactly
                  that, STOP. The difference is that Estop stops "everything" in a
                  manner deemed safe(set up by the machine designer). Stop just stops
                  motion, but is likely unrecoverable as to position. That's why we
                  have feedhold!

                  These tradeoffs are evident in MANY CNC controls besides Mach2.

                  Yes, there ARE some controls which will IMMEDIATELY decel at the max
                  rate which will preserve position, AND these controls WILL preserve
                  the queue, and...

                  BUT, they do NOT cost 150 bucks<G>, and they are NOT running on a
                  single microprocessor! (One commercial machine advertised--a few
                  years ago!-- that it had FIVE PC's running to accomplish it's tasks.)

                  So you pays your money, and you makes your choices.

                  There definitely IS a couple of "safe" ways to stop Mach2. AND
                  there's a way which may NOT be safe in all cases due to some
                  continued axis movement(feedhold), but which WILL preserve the
                  machine position.

                  What you're asking for is a TOUGH thing, because of the legal
                  ramifications. Art "could" make a further distinction between stop
                  and estop. He could have stop decel at max rate immmediately. (You
                  would nearly always lose position, but it would be easier on your
                  machine.) And then Estop would be the right now, no decel stop.

                  But then what happens in a courtroom where somebody's hand is
                  missing, because--as his or her lawyer will MOST DEFINITELY point out-
                  -"The machine did not stop when I pressed stop; it decellerated
                  first! And now my hand is missing!"

                  "Mr. Fenerty, Did you KNOW that the stop was not immediate?"

                  "Yes, but that's why we have estop..."

                  "So you're saying Mr. Fenerty; that you KNEW the stop button/key did
                  not actually immediately stop the machine"

                  "Well, yes, BUT Mark Tucker said his machine was being wrecked by the
                  sudden stop, and it's quite an expensive machine, and so we added
                  decel to the stop button, because we have the estop for immediately
                  stopping..."

                  "Judge, please instruct the jury to disregard that last comment. Mr.
                  Fenerty please JUST answer the question! Did you know that pressing
                  stop would NOT immediately stop the machine??? Yes, or no?"

                  I hope you see the problem.

                  If we go ahead and promote the decel type of stop AS feedhold "(and
                  document it as such)to avoid the above scenario, then we've lost the
                  ability to restart and continue the job...

                  So we've got three conflicting requirements. Save the person. Save
                  the machine. Save the toolpath integrity.

                  Which gets first priority is a no-brainer. But there ARE arguments
                  for the order of the next two... Size, speed and type of machine are
                  gonna be the main determinants, IMO

                  So perhaps we should let you choose whether your feedhold protects
                  the machine, or preserves the integrity of your toolpath? Because
                  anything called stop, HAS to stop. ASAP.

                  Hope this helps,

                  Ballendo

                  P.S. FWIW, Art is working with several issues in USB mode which may
                  bring help to this area of Mach2. Due to the latency of communication
                  between Mach2 and a device connected via USB: the stop, feedhold, CVV
                  queue, and homing/probing require different approaches. (Mach2 can
                  talk to its driver 25K/sec or more, but the USB device is only
                  communicated to 1024 times/sec. Quite a difference.)

                  Some of the work to implement USB mode may have implication and
                  results which could be applied to the NON-USB mode of Mach2... We'll
                  have to wait and see. (But I think I've seen indicators that at least
                  some things will be better due to the analysis that's been required
                  by the USB mode implementation.)


                  --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Tucker" <rmtucker@l...>
                  wrote:
                  > Ballendo
                  >
                  > I recently brought the subject up, of cycle stop / Feedhold.
                  > Art informed me that a true cycle stop/Feedhold could not be
                  > implemented.
                  >
                  > 1.Pause - Does not work in time critical areas like G31 etc.So this
                  > does not always work when required.
                  >
                  > 2.Stop - Makes an immediate stop with no deceleration.So my 200lb
                  > Gantry jerks to a halt and loses steps when running at 4000mm/min
                  > feed.
                  >
                  > So basically there is no safe way to stop in Mach2 !!!!.That i am
                  > aware of ?.
                  >
                  > Thanks
                  > Mark
                • ballendo
                  ... Mark, What do you mean by this? A G31 is ALREADY a limited move. By definition it is a linear move which will be stopped EITHER by reaching the axis
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                    >"Mark Tucker" wrote:
                    >1.Pause - Does not work in time critical areas like G31 etc.So this
                    >does not always work when required.

                    Mark,

                    What do you mean by this? A G31 is ALREADY a "limited" move. By
                    definition it is a linear move which will be stopped EITHER by
                    reaching the axis departure values contained in the block, OR by a
                    state change on the probe input (Note: Most commercial CNC's call
                    this the skip input, and G31 is the Skip command.)

                    So are you asking that a feedhold be applicable during the
                    interpolated movement to stop prior to the probe actuation? (That
                    should be how it works now, and if not, should be possible...)

                    Or are you saying that The probe actuationm itself is somehow not
                    working correctly?

                    Help me understand what I'm missing?

                    Thank you in advance,

                    Ballendo
                  • ballendo
                    ... Should be: Then axis motion should only be available using either: the cycle start--to continue automatic program operation, the jog controls, or the MDI
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                      > Ballendo wrote:
                      > A feedhold should decelerate to a stop as quickly as possible. Then
                      > axis motion should only be available using the cycle start.

                      Should be:

                      Then axis motion should only be available using either: the cycle
                      start--to continue automatic program operation, the jog controls, or
                      the MDI entry box.

                      Sorry,

                      Ballendodo
                    • Mark Tucker
                      ... this ... Ballendo Pause/Feedhold does not work at all during a G31 cycle.This is the point i am trying to make.When the probe is moving down looking for
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                        --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > >"Mark Tucker" wrote:
                        > >1.Pause - Does not work in time critical areas like G31 etc.So
                        this
                        > >does not always work when required.
                        >
                        > Mark,
                        >
                        > What do you mean by this? A G31 is ALREADY a "limited" move. By
                        > definition it is a linear move which will be stopped EITHER by
                        > reaching the axis departure values contained in the block, OR by a
                        > state change on the probe input (Note: Most commercial CNC's call
                        > this the skip input, and G31 is the Skip command.)
                        >
                        > So are you asking that a feedhold be applicable during the
                        > interpolated movement to stop prior to the probe actuation? (That
                        > should be how it works now, and if not, should be possible...)
                        >
                        > Or are you saying that The probe actuationm itself is somehow not
                        > working correctly?
                        >
                        > Help me understand what I'm missing?
                        >
                        > Thank you in advance,
                        >
                        > Ballendo

                        Ballendo

                        Pause/Feedhold does not work at all during a G31 cycle.This is the
                        point i am trying to make.When the probe is moving down looking for
                        the touch,The pause button does not work.
                        Niether does the feedrate overide.

                        I am quite sure that the pause button should work no matter what the
                        circumstances.I tried to make this point to art and art informed me
                        that it is not possible.

                        Art Said:-

                        "Unfortunately, this one is impossible due to the design of the
                        control.
                        Doing CNC in windows is a large challenge and Mach2 uses some unique
                        ways to get around the problem.
                        This is one of the compromises necessary to allow for the movement
                        to be smooth and uninterrupted.
                        SInce its a design issue, I can't really change this."

                        So as i said in the previous post which you gave me a lengthy reply
                        again,Pause is only Pause in certain situations.

                        So now a bit of a dilemma as a "grunt" from the shopfloor,The
                        machine is probing and i wish to use a controlled stop.

                        Do i Press Pause and maybe it will or maybe it won't
                        Or do i press stop and lose steps and have to restart the whole
                        probing sequence,After re-reference.

                        Or do i press e/stop and have to re-fire the machine up and re-
                        reference.

                        I am afraid as a "grunt" from the shopfloor i have never had to make
                        these decisions,I usually press the red button marked feedhold and
                        the machine comes to a controlled stop no matter what it is doing
                        other than tapping.

                        Maybe there are other situations when pause is not a pause,And
                        feedrate overide is not an overide.
                        It may be a good idea to inform me of such situations then i can
                        make an informed decision as to which of the three red buttons i
                        press?.

                        Hope this clarify's thing for you

                        Regards
                        Mark
                      • ballendo
                        Mark, Thank you. I remember Art s post. I also remember thinking at the time that what he was saying didn t make sense to me. BUT... I don t have the guts of
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                          Mark,

                          Thank you. I remember Art's post. I also remember thinking at the
                          time that what he was saying didn't make sense to me. BUT...

                          I don't have the guts of mach2 in my head, or in front of me. He
                          does.

                          I WILL ask Art offlist for the specifics of the G31 issue. And once
                          again mention to you that perhaps some of the USB mode stuff being
                          worked out might provide answers or paths to getting this more in
                          line with other CNC controls. No guarantee's but now I understand
                          where you're coming from... (And I agree with you.)

                          Ballendo

                          P.S. I DO have a possible work-around in the meantime. Simply put
                          a "pause" switch in parallel with your probe. Pressing it will stop
                          the probe axis motion, but it will also record a point, and may just
                          move to the next probe point. Am I understanding that you cannot
                          press pause at ANY TIME during a probe routine of thousands of
                          points?? I haven't used probing in Mach2. Seems like I better do so
                          soon!

                          (Okay, I really typed that "work-around" as a question/idea for Art
                          <G>) Art, Since the probe input state change DOES stop motion in a
                          controlled way, why not use this avenue of input for the pause during
                          probing? Then you could jump to some code which deletes the erroneous
                          point that was just recorded, and sets up the correct situation for
                          restart of probing after the pause? (You'd have to look at
                          a "pause_activated" flag on each sensing of probe input state change
                          to differentiate between the probe switch and keyboard pause input.
                          That should be quick and provide the branch point for the "do pause"
                          vs. "record point" functions... Doing this might prevent the writing
                          of the erroneous point in the first place)

                          Mark,
                          Could you do a quick test for me since I'm away from the machines
                          today: Are you able to pause an axis on the way to its reference
                          switch? (Means if you begin a homing operation, can you stop the axis
                          movement with a pause?)
                        • Mark Tucker
                          ... wrote: of the erroneous point in the first place) ... axis ... Ballendo Pause does not work while referencing in any axis.I have just tried it,So art must
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                            --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>
                            wrote:
                            of the erroneous point in the first place)
                            >
                            > Mark,
                            > Could you do a quick test for me since I'm away from the machines
                            > today: Are you able to pause an axis on the way to its reference
                            > switch? (Means if you begin a homing operation, can you stop the
                            axis
                            > movement with a pause?)

                            Ballendo

                            Pause does not work while referencing in any axis.I have just tried
                            it,So art must be using the same routine?.

                            Mark
                          • Art
                            Mark: I think I spoke too soon or was thinking out of context. While it is not possible due to design to do some things with the pause (which is why its
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                              Mark:

                              I think I spoke too soon or was thinking out of context. While it is not
                              possible due to design to do some things with the "pause" (which is why its
                              called pause and not feed hold), the G31 issue was never thought of in this
                              context. Since I read your letter a few minutes ago, I added an internal
                              call, so that when pause is pressed a G31 will pause. Be warned, however,
                              that that particular feed downwards will be aborted. A G31 is not really a
                              commanded move,it is a modified JOG command, when canceled for any reason,
                              it will assume it was cancelled as a result of probe activation. This is one
                              of those compromise things I speak of, the design only allows me a certain
                              amount of freeplay at this point. At well over 100,000 lines of code, too
                              many things are tied together. Most people think of a program like MAch2 as
                              a sequential series of commands as in a conventional computer program, but
                              there is very little about Mach2 flow that is conventional in those terms.

                              Sorry for the missed pause in G31, but it is fixed for next release to at
                              least allow you to pause the movement, though you will miss that sample.
                              Most point cloud processors will allow you to remove such a glitch from the
                              cloud though..

                              Thanks,
                              Art
                              www.artofcnc.ca
                            • ballendo
                              Mark, Thank you. Same routine? Yes, I think so. (I remembered him mentioning it one time as I was typing my post; hence the requested test...) Next question:
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                Mark,

                                Thank you. Same routine?

                                Yes, I think so. (I remembered him mentioning it one time as I was
                                typing my post; hence the requested test...)

                                Next question: Can you stop a digitising routine at ANY point BETWEEN
                                G31 moves?

                                Ballendo

                                --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Tucker" <rmtucker@l...>
                                wrote:
                                > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>
                                > wrote:
                                > of the erroneous point in the first place)
                                > >
                                > > Mark,
                                > > Could you do a quick test for me since I'm away from the machines
                                > > today: Are you able to pause an axis on the way to its reference
                                > > switch? (Means if you begin a homing operation, can you stop the
                                > axis
                                > > movement with a pause?)
                                >
                                > Ballendo
                                >
                                > Pause does not work while referencing in any axis.I have just tried
                                > it,So art must be using the same routine?.
                                >
                                > Mark
                              • Art
                                ... Yes, the help / aboput will be maintained. I sometimes miss changing it as I go, but will try to keep it current over the next releases. ... Pause never
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                  B:

                                  > But we WILL have a reliable Ver number accessible somewhere,
                                  > correct?! (As I said, pick your own spot, but it REALLY would be nice
                                  > to KNOW that a particular rev IS a particular rev.) Pretty please<G>

                                  Yes, the help / aboput will be maintained. I sometimes miss changing it as
                                  I go, but will try to keep
                                  it current over the next releases.


                                  > BOTH pause and feedhold will stop ALL axis motion.
                                  > Pause will eventually time out. Feedhold never will.

                                  Pause never times out. It is a pause. The reason it is not called feedhold
                                  is because it is slightly different in its behaviour. Let me explain why.
                                  The planner can have up to 50 lines typically in its buffer, they are all
                                  CV'ed and ready to go out. The loop that gets the data from the planner
                                  calls for the next coordinate for the time period specified, but it is
                                  sequential. When you hit pause, the planner then ramps down movement safely
                                  and holds at that spot. Hitting cycle/start again will resume, but the only
                                  way to truly stop is to hit stop after it is paused. You may then do as you
                                  wish and no steps have been lost. But pausing and then jogging about and
                                  restarting is not possible in some contexts. It is not a true feedhold as it
                                  cannot be guarenteed to restart from that position after you have moved it
                                  away form the expected position. This is seen if pausing in Arc's, pausing
                                  in lines and jogging away is no problem as the previous line is repeated
                                  which makes it simply continue on to its previous destination. Again, this
                                  is another of those "buffering" controller compromises. The only alternative
                                  was to have it stop suddenly, lose position and have to start over. Hitting
                                  Pause, then stop after the pause is holding postion is the safest way to go.
                                  You can, however, hit pause, then toggle any IO you wish, then hit resume..
                                  For example if your coolant need refilling or something, you can pause, do
                                  what you need, then hit start again and all will be well.

                                  > There are similar questions to be answered about pause and Feedhold.
                                  > (Unless you adopt the lowest common denominator of stopping axis
                                  > motion ONLY.) Does coolant stop during a pause?(best that it doesn't,
                                  > since a pause in axis motion at the bottom of a drilled hole is the
                                  > reason for G82--it's called a "dwell" there. I can't think of a
                                  > single commercial CNC control which doesn't use dwell and pause to
                                  > mean the same thing; the only distinction being that a "dwell" is
                                  > usually expected to be shorter than a "pause".

                                  Dwell and Pause are quite different in MAch2's context. Nothing else
                                  changes, the planner simply "Pauses"..


                                  Art
                                • Art
                                  Mark, B: While referncing, (also a modified Jog rouitne) pressing stop is the best option, it doesn t matter if steps ar elost in a referencing routine. Of
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                    Mark, B:

                                    While referncing, (also a modified Jog rouitne) pressing stop is the best
                                    option, it doesn't matter if steps ar elost in a referencing routine. Of
                                    course, from next version onwards, pause will also stop a ref'ing rouitine..

                                    Art
                                    www.artofcnc.ca

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Mark Tucker" <rmtucker@...>
                                    To: <mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 2:24 PM
                                    Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: G31 and pause/feedhold


                                    > --- In mach1mach2cnc@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > of the erroneous point in the first place)
                                    > >
                                    > > Mark,
                                    > > Could you do a quick test for me since I'm away from the machines
                                    > > today: Are you able to pause an axis on the way to its reference
                                    > > switch? (Means if you begin a homing operation, can you stop the
                                    > axis
                                    > > movement with a pause?)
                                    >
                                    > Ballendo
                                    >
                                    > Pause does not work while referencing in any axis.I have just tried
                                    > it,So art must be using the same routine?.
                                    >
                                    > Mark
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
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