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Re: [lxx] Digest Number 262

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  • Aaron and/or Sara
    ... Hi, everyone, I m only a graduate student in the 1st year of my Masters, but I was fortunate enough to have participated in an LXX seminar headed by Manuel
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 27, 2004
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      > The question still remains
      > about what sort of general conclusions should be
      > drawn from the Gottingen
      > apparatus. Should it be presumed that, where the
      > apparatus offers no
      > variants, all manuscript evidence consulted reads
      > the same as the critical
      > text (or differs only in insignificant ways)? The
      > apparatus is obviously
      > meant to aid the manuscript researcher in getting a
      > grasp on the range of
      > evidence available - to provide positive evidence -
      > but does it serve the
      > related function of excluding other possibilities,
      > i.e., providing
      > negative evidence (no cited variant = no significant
      > variation in known evidence)?

      Hi, everyone,
      I'm only a graduate student in the 1st year of my
      Masters, but I was fortunate enough to have
      participated in an LXX seminar headed by Manuel
      Jinbachian. Due to that class, I can say that there
      are a LOT of cases where silence in the apparatus can
      NOT be trusted as conclusive evidence for a lack of
      variants. (I didn't realize these were so exciting,
      though, or I would have written them down.) Dr.
      Jinbachian certainly had a humungous list of errors
      he, personally, had found in the Gottingen. (...and
      this is not to disparage it; where would we be without
      it?) So, in my opinion, it cannot be cited as "proof"
      if you don't do the check-up work yourself.

      Unfortunately.

      Sara

      ______________________________________________________________________
      Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
    • James Miller
      ... Thanks for your input, Sara. I was kind of hoping to hear something like that from Bob Kraft, but maybe he ll weigh in on that, or other aspects of the
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 27, 2004
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        On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Aaron and/or Sara wrote:
        >
        > I'm only a graduate student in the 1st year of my
        > Masters, but I was fortunate enough to have
        > participated in an LXX seminar headed by Manuel
        > Jinbachian. Due to that class, I can say that there
        > are a LOT of cases where silence in the apparatus can
        > NOT be trusted as conclusive evidence for a lack of
        > variants. (I didn't realize these were so exciting,
        > though, or I would have written them down.) Dr.
        > Jinbachian certainly had a humungous list of errors
        > he, personally, had found in the Gottingen. (...and
        > this is not to disparage it; where would we be without
        > it?) So, in my opinion, it cannot be cited as "proof"
        > if you don't do the check-up work yourself.
        >
        > Unfortunately.

        Thanks for your input, Sara. I was kind of hoping to hear something like
        that from Bob Kraft, but maybe he'll weigh in on that, or other aspects of
        the discussion, later. If you (and your source, Dr. Jinbachian) are right
        it means, relative to my most recent post, that before I can say something
        like "no significant variant to 'ta onomata twn uiwn israhl twn' exists at
        this point" (Exod 1:1), I must first get ahold of and check manuscripts A,
        B, M, the recension groups O'' and C'', the manuscript groups b, d, f, n,
        s, t, x, y and z and the Achmimic and Sahidic versions and make sure they
        don't vary significantly. That's rather impractical for most of us, but
        at least we've discovered how confidently we can speak using the Gottingen
        work as our base. I suppose checking other critical texts could serve as
        a stand-in, in at least some cases, for checking the manuscripts
        themselves.

        Let's tentatively presume that you and your source are right: arguments
        from the silence of the apparatus should not be assumed, formulated or put
        forward authoritatively. If so, is the following rule of thumb on using
        the apparatus a valid one? Rule of thumb concerning the Gottingen
        critical apparatus: the apparatus is to be held most authoritative where
        it offers positive evidence - i.e., cites variants to the critical text.
        Presuming that: 1) all manuscripts consulted read with the critical text
        where no variants are cited; and 2) that no significant variants exist in
        known evidence where none are cited in the apparatus, is unadvisable.
        Such presumptions may well turn out to be erroneous. Sound reasonable,
        anyone?

        James
      • Matthew Johnson
        ... [snip] ... Two points: 1) wouldn t it be nice if _all_ critical editions included the excellent and detailed instructions on interpreting the critical
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 27, 2004
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          --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, James Miller <jamtat@m...> wrote:
          > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Aaron and/or Sara wrote:

          [snip]

          >Rule of thumb concerning the Gottingen

          Two points: 1) wouldn't it be nice if _all_ critical editions
          included the excellent and detailed instructions on interpreting the
          critical apparatus we find in Nestle-Aland's 27 edition?

          2) Someone who knows German _much_ better than I do explained that
          the "o-umlaut" is historically an abbreviation for 'oe'. So if you
          can't enter an "o-umlaut" for whatever reason, please use the 'oe'.
          You will be understood, and even online catalogs/dictionaries will
          generally match such an entry. The same applies, mutatis mutandis,
          for all the umlauts in German.
        • Robert Kraft
          Well, I ve been out of town and away from the books (thus the silence), and I ll be gone for another week starting Wednesday, so be gentle. In general, I d
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 29, 2004
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            Well, I've been out of town and away from the books (thus the silence),
            and I'll be gone for another week starting Wednesday, so be gentle.

            In general, I'd say, you can trust the Goettingen editions for what they
            claim to cover. Of course there can be slips, but it is a very careful and
            very responsible project. If you are making a claim, always pass the
            blame/credit along -- "according to the Goettingen apparatus, this reading
            is not found in any of their listed MSS."

            As for the specific text of Ex 1.1 Tauta ta onomata twn uiwn israhl twn
            eispeporeumenwn -- the Cambridge larger Septuagint (Brooke-McLean) lists
            MS 37 with an initial kai, MS f with Tauta de, and several MSS with
            eisporeumenwn. End of story. I don't have Wevers' Goettingen Exodus in
            front of me (who borrowed it??), but is is possible that he does not
            mention the variant in MS f, since that MS is part of a larger subgroup
            and if the other members of the subgroup do not support "f" here, the
            variant might be considered insignificant.

            My practice is as James (or someone in the discussion) suggests, check
            Goettingen and Cambridge and trust the combined evidence -- remembering,
            of course, that more recent discoveries can always modify the picture. (I
            regret to report that nothing significant has been done yet with Exodus in
            the CATSS Variants project, where updated evidence can be added once the
            basic file is created. Volunteers? For background, see

            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/catss.html)

            You will, of course, have questions. I'll field them as time and
            opportunity permit!

            Bob


            > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Aaron and/or Sara wrote:
            > >
            > > I'm only a graduate student in the 1st year of my
            > > Masters, but I was fortunate enough to have
            > > participated in an LXX seminar headed by Manuel
            > > Jinbachian. Due to that class, I can say that there
            > > are a LOT of cases where silence in the apparatus can
            > > NOT be trusted as conclusive evidence for a lack of
            > > variants. (I didn't realize these were so exciting,
            > > though, or I would have written them down.) Dr.
            > > Jinbachian certainly had a humungous list of errors
            > > he, personally, had found in the Gottingen. (...and
            > > this is not to disparage it; where would we be without
            > > it?) So, in my opinion, it cannot be cited as "proof"
            > > if you don't do the check-up work yourself.
            > >
            > > Unfortunately.
            >
            > Thanks for your input, Sara. I was kind of hoping to hear something like
            > that from Bob Kraft, but maybe he'll weigh in on that, or other aspects of
            > the discussion, later. If you (and your source, Dr. Jinbachian) are right
            > it means, relative to my most recent post, that before I can say something
            > like "no significant variant to 'ta onomata twn uiwn israhl twn' exists at
            > this point" (Exod 1:1), I must first get ahold of and check manuscripts A,
            > B, M, the recension groups O'' and C'', the manuscript groups b, d, f, n,
            > s, t, x, y and z and the Achmimic and Sahidic versions and make sure they
            > don't vary significantly. That's rather impractical for most of us, but
            > at least we've discovered how confidently we can speak using the Gottingen
            > work as our base. I suppose checking other critical texts could serve as
            > a stand-in, in at least some cases, for checking the manuscripts
            > themselves.
            >
            > Let's tentatively presume that you and your source are right: arguments
            > from the silence of the apparatus should not be assumed, formulated or put
            > forward authoritatively. If so, is the following rule of thumb on using
            > the apparatus a valid one? Rule of thumb concerning the Gottingen
            > critical apparatus: the apparatus is to be held most authoritative where
            > it offers positive evidence - i.e., cites variants to the critical text.
            > Presuming that: 1) all manuscripts consulted read with the critical text
            > where no variants are cited; and 2) that no significant variants exist in
            > known evidence where none are cited in the apparatus, is unadvisable.
            > Such presumptions may well turn out to be erroneous. Sound reasonable,
            > anyone?
            >
            > James
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
            227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
            kraft@...
            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
          • James Miller
            ... ... Thanks for responding on this, Bob. Sort of a by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses rule :). Do I understand correctly? There s not a total
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 1 11:18 AM
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              On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Robert Kraft wrote:

              > Well, I've been out of town and away from the books (thus the silence),
              > and I'll be gone for another week starting Wednesday, so be gentle.
              <snip>
              >
              > My practice is as James (or someone in the discussion) suggests, check
              > Goettingen and Cambridge and trust the combined evidence -- remembering,
              > of course, that more recent discoveries can always modify the picture. (I

              Thanks for responding on this, Bob. Sort of a "by the mouth of 2 or 3
              witnesses" rule :). Do I understand correctly? There's not a total
              overlap between the 2 "witnesses," though. Let's say someone needs a
              second witness in the case of a work not covered by the Cambridge edition:
              what's the next best witness after Cambridge? Rahlfs' hand edition?
              Holmes Parsons? Swete? Any (all?) of the above?

              Thanks, James

              >
              >
              > > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Aaron and/or Sara wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I'm only a graduate student in the 1st year of my
              > > > Masters, but I was fortunate enough to have
              > > > participated in an LXX seminar headed by Manuel
              > > > Jinbachian. Due to that class, I can say that there
              > > > are a LOT of cases where silence in the apparatus can
              > > > NOT be trusted as conclusive evidence for a lack of
              > > > variants. (I didn't realize these were so exciting,
              > > > though, or I would have written them down.) Dr.
              > > > Jinbachian certainly had a humungous list of errors
              > > > he, personally, had found in the Gottingen. (...and
              > > > this is not to disparage it; where would we be without
              > > > it?) So, in my opinion, it cannot be cited as "proof"
              > > > if you don't do the check-up work yourself.
              > > >
              > > > Unfortunately.
              > >
              > > Thanks for your input, Sara. I was kind of hoping to hear something like
              > > that from Bob Kraft, but maybe he'll weigh in on that, or other aspects of
              > > the discussion, later. If you (and your source, Dr. Jinbachian) are right
              > > it means, relative to my most recent post, that before I can say something
              > > like "no significant variant to 'ta onomata twn uiwn israhl twn' exists at
              > > this point" (Exod 1:1), I must first get ahold of and check manuscripts A,
              > > B, M, the recension groups O'' and C'', the manuscript groups b, d, f, n,
              > > s, t, x, y and z and the Achmimic and Sahidic versions and make sure they
              > > don't vary significantly. That's rather impractical for most of us, but
              > > at least we've discovered how confidently we can speak using the Gottingen
              > > work as our base. I suppose checking other critical texts could serve as
              > > a stand-in, in at least some cases, for checking the manuscripts
              > > themselves.
              > >
              > > Let's tentatively presume that you and your source are right: arguments
              > > from the silence of the apparatus should not be assumed, formulated or put
              > > forward authoritatively. If so, is the following rule of thumb on using
              > > the apparatus a valid one? Rule of thumb concerning the Gottingen
              > > critical apparatus: the apparatus is to be held most authoritative where
              > > it offers positive evidence - i.e., cites variants to the critical text.
              > > Presuming that: 1) all manuscripts consulted read with the critical text
              > > where no variants are cited; and 2) that no significant variants exist in
              > > known evidence where none are cited in the apparatus, is unadvisable.
              > > Such presumptions may well turn out to be erroneous. Sound reasonable,
              > > anyone?
              > >
              > > James
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
              > 227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
              > kraft@...
              > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Matthew Johnson
              Hi, Robert- ... [snip] ... You are right: I _do_ have questions: 1) why do I get Internal Server Error when clicking on any of the VAR files under Variants
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 6 2:12 PM
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                Hi, Robert-

                --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kraft <kraft@c...> wrote:

                [snip]

                >(I regret to report that nothing significant has
                > been done yet with Exodus in the CATSS Variants
                > project, where updated evidence can be added once the
                > basic file is created. Volunteers? For background, see
                >
                > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/catss.html)
                >
                > You will, of course, have questions. I'll field them as time and
                > opportunity permit!

                You are right: I _do_ have questions:

                1) why do I get "Internal Server Error" when clicking on any of the
                VAR files under 'Variants Module' : 'New'?

                2) I see a link explaining IOCSS, but none explaining the 'Variants
                Project'. How _do_ we use these 'VAR' files?

                [snip]
              • Sigrid Peterson
                Bob Kraft is in sunnier California for the week. He may, nevertheless, answer your query. In the meantime, I will see if this helps. The web site we re talking
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 8 12:10 AM
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                  Bob Kraft is in sunnier California for the week. He may, nevertheless,
                  answer your query. In the meantime, I will see if this helps.

                  The web site we're talking about is
                  http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/catss.html

                  You will have noticed that the "Variants Module" "New" files are older
                  than the "Variants Module" "Old" files? There has been an effort to
                  update files from the old gopher server (like ftp, only not quite) to
                  versions that will work with the Web as it is currently constructed.

                  I think the internal configuration error on *.var files occurs because
                  the three-letter "var" ending is protected as a system or web file of
                  some sort. I'm copying this to Dr. Jay Treat, an LXX doctorate who
                  works in IT at Penn, and who, I think, is the webmaster for the project, if
                  not Bob himself. He may know more about why the problem occurs: I
                  notice it doesn't occur on opening the other files.

                  There is a full file from the Variants project that has, I believe,
                  been proofread, and represents all of the variants from the
                  Goettingensis. That's the four Deu *.tav files, in the "Variants
                  Module" "New," area.

                  To understand the way the variants are encoded for electronic
                  transmission, look at the Bibliography. In it, one of the early
                  listings under 1986 is
                  Abercrombie, J. R., W. Adler, R. A. Kraft and E. Tov. RUTH (CATSS 1).
                  SCS 20. Atlanta, GA.: Scholar's Press, 1986.

                  This volume on Ruth is the best one-volume explanation and example of a
                  variants-encoded electronic text. It is available online at:
                  ftp://ftp.lehigh.edu/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/rkruth

                  One starts working on the Variants project, as many of Bob's students
                  have done, by reading the Ruth book and copy editing the electronic
                  text against the best available Greek text--Goettingensis or Rahlfs.

                  The idea is to have an electronic desktop of the HB/OT/LXX, with the
                  Parallel Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek Aligned Text as the centerpiece,
                  Hebrew on one side and access to the extensive LXX variants on the
                  other.

                  Can encoding MSS be far behind?

                  Sigrid Peterson
                  petersig@...

                  >
                  > Hi, Robert- >
                  > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kraft <kraft@c...> wrote:
                  >
                  > [snip]
                  >
                  > >(I regret to report that nothing significant has
                  > > been done yet with Exodus in the CATSS Variants
                  > > project, where updated evidence can be added once the
                  > > basic file is created. Volunteers? For background, see
                  > >
                  > > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/catss.html)
                  > >
                  > > You will, of course, have questions. I'll field them as time and
                  > > opportunity permit!
                  >
                  > You are right: I _do_ have questions:
                  >
                  > 1) why do I get "Internal Server Error" when clicking on any of the
                  > VAR files under 'Variants Module' : 'New'?
                  >
                  > 2) I see a link explaining IOCSS, but none explaining the 'Variants
                  > Project'. How _do_ we use these 'VAR' files?
                  >
                  > [snip]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Matthew Johnson
                  ... Thanks for the effort. [snip] ... That is a useful observation. Thanks. [snip] ... All the more the pity, then, that the URL you gave for it STILL does not
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 8 12:47 PM
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                    --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Sigrid Peterson <petersig@c...> wrote:
                    > Bob Kraft is in sunnier California for the week.
                    > He may, nevertheless,
                    > answer your query. In the meantime, I will see if this helps.

                    Thanks for the effort.

                    [snip]

                    >He may know more about why the problem occurs: I
                    > notice it doesn't occur on opening the other files.

                    That is a useful observation. Thanks.

                    [snip]

                    > This volume on Ruth is the best one-volume
                    > explanation and example of a
                    > variants-encoded electronic text.

                    All the more the pity, then, that the URL you gave for it STILL does
                    not work.

                    > It is available online at:
                    > ftp://ftp.lehigh.edu/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/rkruth

                    Is it? When I click on that link, I get the following error message:

                    Begin quote----------
                    An error occured opening the folder on the FTP server. Make sure you
                    have permission to access this folder. Details:
                    550/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/rkruth/: no such directory.
                    End quote MS IE6 error message---------

                    Now MS prefaces the message with all that verbiage
                    about 'permissions', but these MS prefaces are often red herrings.
                    It sounds to me like somebody redirected the URL you gave to the URL
                    quoted in the error message, and the file is NOT there. Or the rule
                    replacing "ftp://...edu" with "550" is WRONG.
                  • James Miller
                    ... I was able to access and download this file with the Links (text mode) browser under Linux, 3PM CST. I think the problem may be with the way your browser
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 8 12:58 PM
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                      On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Matthew Johnson wrote:

                      > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Sigrid Peterson <petersig@c...> wrote:
                      > > This volume on Ruth is the best one-volume
                      > > explanation and example of a
                      > > variants-encoded electronic text.
                      >
                      > All the more the pity, then, that the URL you gave for it STILL does
                      > not work.
                      >
                      > > It is available online at:
                      > > ftp://ftp.lehigh.edu/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/rkruth
                      >
                      > Is it? When I click on that link, I get the following error message:
                      >
                      > Begin quote----------
                      > An error occured opening the folder on the FTP server. Make sure you
                      > have permission to access this folder. Details:
                      > 550/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/rkruth/: no such directory.
                      > End quote MS IE6 error message---------
                      >
                      > Now MS prefaces the message with all that verbiage
                      > about 'permissions', but these MS prefaces are often red herrings.
                      > It sounds to me like somebody redirected the URL you gave to the URL
                      > quoted in the error message, and the file is NOT there. Or the rule
                      > replacing "ftp://...edu" with "550" is WRONG.

                      I was able to access and download this file with the Links (text mode)
                      browser under Linux, 3PM CST. I think the problem may be with the way
                      your browser is/is not configured to handle ftp. As to the other problem
                      you mentioned: I did not see any .var files in the "new" directory, but
                      did see some in the "old" directory. I, too, got a server error when
                      trying to follow links to them. It was definitely a message from the
                      server, which is running Apache ("Internal Server Error The server
                      encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to
                      complete your request. Please contact the server administrator,
                      webmaster@... and inform them of the time the error
                      occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
                      More information about this error may be available in the server error
                      log. Apache/1.3.27 Server at ccat.sas.upenn.edu Port 80")

                      James
                    • Sigrid Peterson
                      Two thoughts on not being able to access RKRUTH, the Kraft et.al. book on the LXX Variants project: 1) To be able to access RKRUTH requires membership in
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 8 1:18 PM
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                        Two thoughts on not being able to access "RKRUTH," the Kraft et.al.
                        book on the LXX Variants project:

                        1) To be able to access RKRUTH requires membership in IOUDAIOS-L. (I am
                        a member, with daily and digest materials turned off, but Reviews, and
                        apparently FTP, turned on.) To join, use
                        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/ioudaios/

                        2) To be able to access RKRUTH on the ftp server, you might need to
                        start at the ioudaios-l listserv at Lehigh, and look for the articles listed under
                        Kraft. The URL is:
                        http://listserv.lehigh.edu/lists/ioudaios-l/Articles.html

                        Try the second one first.

                        All the best,
                        Sigrid Peterson
                        petersig@...

                        >
                        > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Sigrid Peterson <petersig@c...> wrote:
                        > > Bob Kraft is in sunnier California for the week.
                        > > He may, nevertheless,
                        > > answer your query. In the meantime, I will see if this helps.
                        >
                        > Thanks for the effort.
                        >
                        > [snip]
                        >
                        > >He may know more about why the problem occurs: I
                        > > notice it doesn't occur on opening the other files.
                        >
                        > That is a useful observation. Thanks.
                        >
                        > [snip]
                        >
                        > > This volume on Ruth is the best one-volume
                        > > explanation and example of a
                        > > variants-encoded electronic text.
                        >
                        > All the more the pity, then, that the URL you gave for it STILL does
                        > not work.
                        >
                        > > It is available online at:
                        > > ftp://ftp.lehigh.edu/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/rkruth
                        >
                        > Is it? When I click on that link, I get the following error message:
                        >
                        > Begin quote----------
                        > An error occured opening the folder on the FTP server. Make sure you
                        > have permission to access this folder. Details:
                        > 550/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/rkruth/: no such directory.
                        > End quote MS IE6 error message---------
                        >
                        > Now MS prefaces the message with all that verbiage
                        > about 'permissions', but these MS prefaces are often red herrings.
                        > It sounds to me like somebody redirected the URL you gave to the URL
                        > quoted in the error message, and the file is NOT there. Or the rule
                        > replacing "ftp://...edu" with "550" is WRONG.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • James Miller
                        ... I was able to access the file on the ftp link included in Matthew s note just now (3:25PM CST) and download it, even though I neither am subscribed to, nor
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 8 1:26 PM
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                          On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Sigrid Peterson wrote:

                          > Two thoughts on not being able to access "RKRUTH," the Kraft et.al.
                          > book on the LXX Variants project:
                          >
                          > 1) To be able to access RKRUTH requires membership in IOUDAIOS-L. (I am
                          > a member, with daily and digest materials turned off, but Reviews, and
                          > apparently FTP, turned on.) To join, use
                          > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/ioudaios/

                          I was able to access the file on the ftp link included in Matthew's note
                          just now (3:25PM CST) and download it, even though I neither am subscribed
                          to, nor am I a member of, the IOUDAIOS-L list.

                          James
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