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OT - Vulagte reference sources?

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  • James Miller (office)
    I m doing a bit of study on a particular Latin word that appears in the Vulgate. I d like to know what scholars think is the underlying Hebrew word it
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 5, 2003
      I'm doing a bit of study on a particular Latin word that appears in the
      Vulgate. I'd like to know what scholars think is the underlying Hebrew
      word it translates. I was expecting to find some reference source that,
      like Hatch and Redpath (there's the LXX link in this post!) or maybe
      certain English-language concordances, gives the conjectured Hebrew word
      the translation word is rendering. 2 Latin concordances I've consulted
      thus far have made no reference to Hebrew whatever. Are there some such
      sources I'm missing? If so, what are they? Where are some places to
      look/ask further about this matter?

      Thanks, James
    • James Miller (office)
      ... I already know what Hebrew word underlies the Latin word I m interested in. But I m Joe Schmo when it comes to Latin/Hebrew language correspondence
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 5, 2003
        On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, James Murphy wrote:

        > What is the Latin word?
        >
        I already "know" what Hebrew word underlies the Latin word I'm interested
        in. But I'm Joe Schmo when it comes to Latin/Hebrew language
        correspondence speculations. I'm looking for some reputable scholar to
        back me up, or some widely-respected reference work (an interim measure
        until my reputation on such matters assumes the aura of infallibility it
        really deserves :) ). Isn't there one out there?

        James

        >
        > On Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 08:03 AM, James Miller (office)
        > wrote:
        >
        > > I'm doing a bit of study on a particular Latin word that appears in the
        > > Vulgate. I'd like to know what scholars think is the underlying Hebrew
        > > word it translates. I was expecting to find some reference source
        > > that,
        > > like Hatch and Redpath (there's the LXX link in this post!) or maybe
        > > certain English-language concordances, gives the conjectured Hebrew
        > > word
        > > the translation word is rendering. 2 Latin concordances I've consulted
        > > thus far have made no reference to Hebrew whatever. Are there some
        > > such
        > > sources I'm missing? If so, what are they? Where are some places to
        > > look/ask further about this matter?
        > >
        > > Thanks, James
        > >
        > >
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      • James Miller (office)
        ... You mean, like using Bible Works/Logos/Bible Windows software? If so, I can do those (and have done them) too. The stodgy old committees that scrutinize
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 5, 2003
          On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, CS Bartholomew wrote:

          > On 11/5/03 6:03 AM, "James Miller (office)" <jamtat@...> wrote:
          >
          > > I'm doing a bit of study on a particular Latin word that appears in the
          > > Vulgate. I'd like to know what scholars think is the underlying Hebrew
          > > word it translates. I was expecting to find some reference source that,
          > > like Hatch and Redpath (there's the LXX link in this post!) or maybe
          > > certain English-language concordances, gives the conjectured Hebrew word
          > > the translation word is rendering. 2 Latin concordances I've consulted
          > > thus far have made no reference to Hebrew whatever. Are there some such
          > > sources I'm missing? If so, what are they? Where are some places to
          > > look/ask further about this matter?
          > >
          > > Thanks, James
          >
          > Would it be too much trouble to tell us what the Latin word is? Some of us
          > have the means of doing highly complex multi language searches, i.e.
          > LXX/MT/Vulg.
          >
          You mean, like using Bible Works/Logos/Bible Windows software? If so, I
          can do those (and have done them) too. The stodgy old committees that
          scrutinize dissertations and give them the final nod are reluctant to
          accept such new-fangled, untested (read: unfamiliar to them)
          authorities. Not to mention the citation problems. They want the good
          old-fashioned print kind - you know, leather bindings, pages stiffened
          through disuse, exuding the musty aroma of sequestered libraries . . .
          Know of any such?

          James

          PS I also maintain the delusion that I am the undisputed expert on this
          list concerning the word in question and its relation to Greek and Hebrew,
          and that rehashing basic questions about the interrelation would not be a
          productive use of my time. Please pardon my snootiness.

          PPS Yes, it would be too much trouble :)
        • James Murphy
          What is the Latin word? James B. Murphy On Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 08:03 AM, James Miller (office)
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 5, 2003
            What is the Latin word?

            James B. Murphy

            On Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 08:03 AM, James Miller (office)
            wrote:

            > I'm doing a bit of study on a particular Latin word that appears in the
            > Vulgate. I'd like to know what scholars think is the underlying Hebrew
            > word it translates. I was expecting to find some reference source
            > that,
            > like Hatch and Redpath (there's the LXX link in this post!) or maybe
            > certain English-language concordances, gives the conjectured Hebrew
            > word
            > the translation word is rendering. 2 Latin concordances I've consulted
            > thus far have made no reference to Hebrew whatever. Are there some
            > such
            > sources I'm missing? If so, what are they? Where are some places to
            > look/ask further about this matter?
            >
            > Thanks, James
            >
            >
            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ---------------------~-->
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            > comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare,
            > decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare
            > | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
            > http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/eCfwlB/TM
            > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
            > ~->
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • CS Bartholomew
            ... Would it be too much trouble to tell us what the Latin word is? Some of us have the means of doing highly complex multi language searches, i.e.
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 5, 2003
              On 11/5/03 6:03 AM, "James Miller (office)" <jamtat@...> wrote:

              > I'm doing a bit of study on a particular Latin word that appears in the
              > Vulgate. I'd like to know what scholars think is the underlying Hebrew
              > word it translates. I was expecting to find some reference source that,
              > like Hatch and Redpath (there's the LXX link in this post!) or maybe
              > certain English-language concordances, gives the conjectured Hebrew word
              > the translation word is rendering. 2 Latin concordances I've consulted
              > thus far have made no reference to Hebrew whatever. Are there some such
              > sources I'm missing? If so, what are they? Where are some places to
              > look/ask further about this matter?
              >
              > Thanks, James

              Would it be too much trouble to tell us what the Latin word is? Some of us
              have the means of doing highly complex multi language searches, i.e.
              LXX/MT/Vulg.

              greetings,
              Clay Bartholomew
            • Robert Kraft
              Well, James, since you put it that way, my suggestion would be that you check what Schleusner has to say (under the Hebrew entry), and also perhaps look at
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 5, 2003
                Well, James, since you put it that way, my suggestion would be that you check
                what Schleusner has to say (under the Hebrew entry), and also perhaps look at
                some of the pre-Hatch-Redpath concordances, which give Latin meanings (not
                necessarily Vulgate, however) as well. Here are some pertinent clips from a draft
                of the Intro that Emanuel Tov and I did for the recent reprint of Hatch-Redpath:

                <quote>
                Kircher
                Conrad (Konrad) Kircher, <t>Concordantiae Veteris Testamenti
                Graecae, Ebraeis Vocibus Respondentes <gk>polu/xrhstoi</gk>.
                simul enim et Lexicon Ebraicolatinum, Ebraicograecum,
                Graecoebraicum: genuinam vocabulorum significationem, ex
                Septuaginta duorum, ut vulgo volunt, interpretum (vel istis, pro
                tempore, deficientibus, ex Aquilae nonnunquam, vel Symmachi, vel
                Theodotionis) translatione petitam: homonymiam ac synonymiam
                Graecam & Ebraeam: quin & Ebraismorum variorum explanationem
                Graecam: Graecismorum elocutionem Ebraeam: & sic
                <gk>diasa/fhsin</gk> Veteris & Novi Testamenti, collatione
                linguarum utrobique facta, suavissima <gk>sumfwni/a|</gk>,
                lectoribus exhibent</>. 2 vols (Frankfurt a.M.: Claudium Marnium,
                & heredes Iohannis Aubrii, 1607)

                Trommius
                1718 Abraham Trommius, <t>Concordantiae Graecae Versionis Vulgo
                Dictae LXX Interpretum, Cujus voces secundum ordinem
                elementorum sermonis Graeci digestae recensentur, contra atque
                in Opere Kircheriano factum fuerat. Leguntur hic praeterea Voces
                Graecae pro Hebraicis redditae; Ab antiquis omnibus Veteris
                Testamenti Interpretibus, quorum nonnisis fragmenta extant,
                Aquila, Symmacho, Theodotione & aliis, quorum maximam partem
                nuper in lucem edidit Domnus Bernardus de Montfaucon</>, 2 vols
                (Amsterdam/Utrecht: Sumptibus Societatis, 1718).

                Le Long
                Jacob Le Long, <t>Bibliotheca Sacra in Binos Syllabos
                Distincta, quorum prior qui jam tertio auctior prodit, omnes sive
                Textus sacri sive Versionum ejusdem quavis Lingua expressarum
                Editiones; nec non praestantiores MSS. Codices, cum Notis
                historicis & criticis exhibet. Posterior vero continet omnia
                eorum opera quovis idiomate conscripta, qui huc usque in sacram
                Scripturam quidpiam ediderunt simul collecta tum ordine Auctorum
                alphabetico disposita; tum serie sacrorum Librorum. Huic
                coronidis loco subjiciuntur grammaticae et lexica linguarum,
                Praesertim Orientalium, quae ad illustrandas sacras paginas
                aliquid adjumenti conferre possunt</>, 2 vols., ed. P. N.
                Desmolets, with the preface by C. F. Boerner reprinted from the
                1709 Leipzig edition (Paris: Montalant, 1723 [1709]).

                Biel
                Johann Christian Biel (posthumously ed by E. H. Mutzenbecher),
                <t>Novus Thesaurus Philologicus, sive Lexicon in LXX et alios
                Interpretes et Scriptores Apocryphos Veteris Testamenti</> 3 vols
                (Hague: J. A. Bouvink, 1779-1780).

                Schleusner
                Johann Friedrich Schleusner, <t>Novus thesaurus philologico-
                criticus, sive lexicon in LXX et reliquos interpretes graecos ac
                scriptores apocryphos Veteris Testamenti</> (Leipzig: Weidmann,
                1820-1821; 2nd ed. Glasgow: Duncan, 1822 and London: Duncan, 1829
                [reprinted Turnhout: Brepols, 1994]).

                Redpath
                H.A. Redpath, "Concordances to the Old Testament in Greek", The
                Expositor 5.3 (1896), 69-77 [reviews the earlier works of Kircher
                (1607), Savile-Gagnier (1714), Aungier (1647), Trommius (1718),
                and "G.M." = Morrish (Bagster, 1887)].

                Rouse
                R. H. Rouse and M. A. Rouse, "The Verbal Concordance to the
                Scriptures," Archivum Fratrum Praedicatorum 44 (1974) 5-30 [deals
                almost excusively with early concordances to the Latin Bible;
                note p.5 n.1: "The history of the Greek and the Hebrew
                concordances ... needs more careful investigation"].

                The first printed concordance that attempted systematically to
                incorporate information from the LXX/OG and associated materials
                was published in 1607, after seven years of effort, by Conrad
                Kircher, a much traveled Lutheran pastor born in Augsburg -- it
                is probably significant that the first published New Testament
                concordance was also by a native of Augsburg, Xystus Betuleius
                (Sixtus Birken) in 1546 (so Bindseil, 689 and 693). Kircher's
                title was seen by some critics (especially Trommius) to be
                deceptive, since it was not arranged primarily as a "concordance
                to the Greek OT" with the Greek words governing the format, but
                its data was arranged alphabetically in accord with the supposed
                Hebrew roots. Thus in some sense it was basically a Hebrew
                concordance in format, but under each Hebrew entry, each apparent
                Greek equivalent was listed along with the passages that attested
                that Greek choice, including, occasionally, information from the
                Hexapla. Thus for any given Hebrew headword, there might be
                several subsections each representing a different Greek
                equivalent. Latin meanings were appended to both the Hebrew and
                the Greek keywords.

                Critics struggled to find any consistent rationale for the exact
                order of the Hebrew entries (e.g. <hb>)BYB</>, <hb>)BD</>, and
                several other Hebrew words stand between <hb>AB</> = "root" and
                <hb>AB</> = "father" in the opening columns) or the order in
                which the Greek equivalents were presented. An Index was provided
                to make it possible to find there the alphabetically arranged
                Greek words, but the value of the index was severely compromised
                by the fact that it only gave the column numbers to which the
                user must then turn to determine what Hebrew was being
                represented. Greek words found in the Apocrypha, which had no
                preserved Hebrew basis and thus were not covered by the body of
                the concordance, were included in the index (but without Latin
                translation) along with the particular passages in which the
                words were found. As a presumably pioneering effort, Kircher's
                work was bold and aimed at being comprehensive (see the lengthy
                "title" with its listing of various features and functions --
                organization according to Hebrew headwords; Lexica for Hebrew-
                Latin, Hebrew-Greek, and Greek-Hebrew equivalents; materials from
                Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion as well as LXX/OG; Greek and
                Hebrew homonymns and synonyms; Greek explanation of Hebrew
                variations, and Hebrew of Greek; valuable for New Testament
                studies as well as Old). As Trommius and others would point out,
                however, problems both with the organization and with the details
                rendered Kircher problematic as a reliable tool.

                According to Redpath, several attempts to improve on Kircher's
                concordance appeared in the following decades of the 17th
                century. One is attributed to Henry Savile, although that
                identification seems problematic to Redpath on the basis of the
                attributed date at "a time when Savile had been long dead" -- but
                at least two literary figures by that name flourished in the 17th
                century, the first and most famous of whom died around 1622, but
                the other not until 1687. In any event, Redpath calls the "Savile"
                compilation "a mere work of scissors and paste for the greater
                part. Two copies of Kircher were cut up and distributed in
                alphabetical order according to the Greek words, and the Hebrew
                equivalents were inserted either in MS or from the headings of
                Kircher's articles." Redpath notes that this work was preserved
                in the Bodleian Library at Oxford (press-mark, Auct. E. I. 2, 3),
                and that "a speciman" was printed and published in 1714 by the
                University Press, edited by Jean Gagnier.

                ...

                Perhaps the most impressive and comprehensive effort at
                publishing a concordance of the Greek Jewish scriptures came from
                the hand of Abraham van der Trommen, or Trom(m), or Trommius as
                he calls himself in the volume under examination. Trommius was a
                protestant pastor from Groningen, in the Netherlands, who had
                studied Hebrew with the younger Johann Buxtorf in Basel as well
                as traveling to France and England during his career; already in
                1692, he had produced a "Belgian" (Flemish) concordance to the
                Bible before he, at age 84, issued his Greek concordance in 1718,
                following sixteen years of effort. He died the following year.

                Trommius is understandably critical of aspects of Kircher's work,
                and even includes in his lengthy title (typical for those times)
                the description "with words following the order of the Greek
                verbal elements, contrary to the approach taken in Kircher's
                work"! In his Preface, Trommius takes issue with Kircher on three
                main points (as well as several lesser matters): (1) the failure
                to organize the materials alphabetically with the Greek as the
                basis; (2) the numerous erroneous quotations, probably caused by
                the manner in which Kircher worked by first recording where a
                Greek word occurred and only later filling in the actual
                contexts; (3) the confused and confusing attempt to organize by
                Hebrew roots. That Trommius was not opposed in principle to some
                sort of lexical grouping is shown by his own juxtaposition of
                related Greek words in his entries -- e.g. the same structural
                block contains <gk>agapaw, hgaphmenos, agaph, agaphtos</>, etc.
                But when he presents the Hebrew or Aramaic equivalents to the
                Greek keywords, he does this strictly alphabetically; and
                similarly in the appended Hebrew-Greek Index which is 130 pages
                long and a mine of useful information.

                Otherwise, Trommius discusses briefly the following procedural
                points:

                1. For his main Greek text, he uses the 1597 Frankfort edition
                of Andrew Wechel, following including its occasional appended
                scholia and its chapter and verse divisions (as did Kircher).

                2. Other editions have been consulted, such as London 1653 (with
                its scholia) and Cambridge 1665 and Amsterdam 1683 and most
                recently the 1709 edition by Franciscus Halma and Lambert Bos
                (with its numerous scholia), and a final appendix is included,
                prepared by Lambert Bos (33 pages), which notes differences in
                chapter and verse locators between the Wechel text and the London
                edition of the Vatican text (MS B, codex Vaticanus).

                3. Other ancient Greek versions and variations are also included,
                such as Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion (so also Kircher), and
                Montfaucon's Greek lexicon to the Hexapla forms a second appendix
                (70 pages).

                4. A special notation is used to flag places in which no Greek is
                present to represent the Hebrew, but information from scholia and
                similar older sources is substituted (Kircher also includes such
                material).

                5. Hebrew words not represented in the Greek are not included,
                except as noted in #4; for Greek words that have no Hebrew or
                Aramaic equivalent, an appropriate notation is also provided.

                6. Transliterated Hebrew words and place names are treated
                variously.

                7. Partial or paraphrastic renderings present problems.

                8. Places where the Greek does not fully render what is in the
                Hebrew also present problems.

                9. Does not include proper names (similarly Kircher), unless they
                are actually translated (not simply transliterated) by the Greek.

                10. Does not include indeclinables, prepositions and conjunctions
                (so also Kircher).

                11. Includes words found in the Apocrypha, appropriately
                designated (see also Kircher's Greek-Hebrew Index).

                12. Inclusion of Latin definitions for Hebrew and Greek (as in
                Kircher; in Trommius, occasionally also Flemish/Belgian
                definitions are provided!), but basically follows dictionary
                order of Hebrew and Greek words (unlike Kircher).

                Redpath's summary comparing the works of Trommius and Kircher is
                worth excerpting (73f): "Trommius gives many more quotations from
                the Hexapla than Kircher did. He does not quote the
                transliterated words, and omits passages which are paraphrastic
                or do not give the meaning of the Hebrew. Proper names are, as a
                rule, omitted, and both Concordances omit indeclinable words and
                pronouns. The apocryphal quotations are by no means complete. A
                certain number of passages are given by both compilers, derived
                from scholia and other sources, but not actually to be found in
                the present text of the LXX. These are marked with a # by
                Trommius" (and similarly identified by Kircher).

                Redpath continues (74), with marked understatement(!): "Though
                the book is by no means perfect, it is in some respects an
                advance upon Kircher. Trommius generally notices the Hebrew
                conjugations and also inserts conjectures as to what the Hebrew
                reading of the LXX was. But the work is disfigured by a
                considerable number of misprints and misplacements of passages in
                succession. This was probably due to a slip of the MS being
                misplaced, as we gather from these mistakes that each slip
                contained about six or seven lines of MS. ... So far as a rough
                calculation can settle the point, there would seem to be four
                quotations in Trommius for every three in Kircher."

                ...

                More promising for our purposes was the line of development laid
                out in Johann Christian Biel's posthumous <t>Novus thesaurus
                philologicus</> that appeared in 1779-1780. This work deserves to
                be discussed along with its successor, Johann Friedrich
                Schleusner's <t>Novus thesaurus philologico-criticus</> (1820-
                21), since the two works are, in general, virtually identical
                both in title and in structure and general content. Indeed,
                Schleusner reprints the preface that E. H. Mutzenbecher
                contributed to the edition of Biel, right after Schleusner's own
                introductory comments.

                To be sure, Biel and Schleusner are not concordances in the
                normal sense, and they do not attempt to list all biblical
                occurrences of each Greek headword, but they do organize the
                material in Greek alphabetical order, followed in each Greek
                entry by the Hebrew or Aramaic word equivalents and sample
                references. Basic to such an effort is the tool produced by
                Trommius. Where Biel and Schleusner make marked progress is in
                annotating and analyzing the presumed equivalents, including
                those drawn from Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion, with much
                more attention to identifying situations in which the Greek
                translator may have had a different Hebrew text, or may have read
                the text that was present in what seems to us an unusual manner.
                Although Biel and the first edition of Schleusner do not include
                a Hebrew index, this has been supplied (Hebrew words in
                alphabetic order plus page locations where they occur) in the 2nd
                edition of Schleusner, published in Glasgow (1822) and London
                (1829). Even today, the materials in these antiquated volumes
                provide valuable information to be used alongside of our improved
                reprints and new tools (printed and electronic); for some
                suggested refinements, see Kraft, "Towards a Lexicon of Jewish
                Translation Greek" (in Kraft 157-178). Indeed, current electronic
                capabilities facilitate the combination of "lexicon" and
                "concordance" features (as well as "grammatical" and others) into
                a single super-tool through the linking of interrelated files
                (see further below).

                What would motivate Schleusner to produce his work so relatively
                soon (at least from our vantage point) after the appearance of
                Biel's work? Doubtless there were a variety of factors, but an
                important event in LXX/OG study had occurred in the interim, the
                appearance, in stages, of the major critical edition by Holmes
                and Parsons (Oxford, 1795-1827). It was a period of renewed
                interest in these materials, and Schleusner remains as a lasting
                monument. The same sort of eruption of textual activity provides
                the context for the appearance of the Hatch-Redpath concordance,
                surrounded as it was by a flow of new discoveries and attendant
                textcritical work that still continues. </quote>

                So, James, good luck!

                Bob

                > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, CS Bartholomew wrote:
                >
                > > On 11/5/03 6:03 AM, "James Miller (office)" <jamtat@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > I'm doing a bit of study on a particular Latin word that appears in the
                > > > Vulgate. I'd like to know what scholars think is the underlying Hebrew
                > > > word it translates. I was expecting to find some reference source that,
                > > > like Hatch and Redpath (there's the LXX link in this post!) or maybe
                > > > certain English-language concordances, gives the conjectured Hebrew word
                > > > the translation word is rendering. 2 Latin concordances I've consulted
                > > > thus far have made no reference to Hebrew whatever. Are there some such
                > > > sources I'm missing? If so, what are they? Where are some places to
                > > > look/ask further about this matter?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks, James
                > >
                > > Would it be too much trouble to tell us what the Latin word is? Some of us
                > > have the means of doing highly complex multi language searches, i.e.
                > > LXX/MT/Vulg.
                > >
                > You mean, like using Bible Works/Logos/Bible Windows software? If so, I
                > can do those (and have done them) too. The stodgy old committees that
                > scrutinize dissertations and give them the final nod are reluctant to
                > accept such new-fangled, untested (read: unfamiliar to them)
                > authorities. Not to mention the citation problems. They want the good
                > old-fashioned print kind - you know, leather bindings, pages stiffened
                > through disuse, exuding the musty aroma of sequestered libraries . . .
                > Know of any such?
                >
                > James
                >
                > PS I also maintain the delusion that I am the undisputed expert on this
                > list concerning the word in question and its relation to Greek and Hebrew,
                > and that rehashing basic questions about the interrelation would not be a
                > productive use of my time. Please pardon my snootiness.
                >
                > PPS Yes, it would be too much trouble :)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >



                --
                Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                kraft@...
                http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
              • Mbenassi48@cs.com
                Professor Kraft, I found your excerpt fascinating and possibly relevant to some work I am doing. Could you give the exact citation for the introduction you
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 6, 2003
                  Professor Kraft,

                  I found your excerpt fascinating and possibly relevant to some work I am doing.  Could you give the exact citation for the introduction you quoted?  The library at the university I am at is not very good when it comes to this sort of material and I want to be sure to request the correct source on Interlibrary loan. 

                  Mark Benassi
                • James Miller (office)
                  ... Couln t a said it better meself. ... Thanks for those tips. I ll look into those. Schleusner s on order from ILL as well - thanks for that pointer and
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 6, 2003
                    On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Larry J. Swain wrote:

                    > manuscripts. But its your research.
                    >
                    Couln't a said it better meself.

                    > But to your question, have you tried something as basic as the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae? I've found solid discussion and
                    > references to Jerome's choice of words to render Greek and Hebrew originals there previously and would be my first port of call. YOu
                    > might also want to check out Ducange as well, old, but full of arcana that often proves useful.
                    >
                    Thanks for those tips. I'll look into those. Schleusner's on order from
                    ILL as well - thanks for that pointer and response, Bob.

                    Back to the books,
                    James
                  • Larry J. Swain
                    Depends, some of us are comfortable with all three languages in question and have done significant work in Latin and Vulgate manuscripts. But its your
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 6, 2003
                      Depends, some of us are comfortable with all three languages in question and have done significant work in Latin and Vulgate
                      manuscripts. But its your research.

                      But to your question, have you tried something as basic as the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae? I've found solid discussion and
                      references to Jerome's choice of words to render Greek and Hebrew originals there previously and would be my first port of call. YOu
                      might also want to check out Ducange as well, old, but full of arcana that often proves useful.

                      Good Luck,

                      Larry Swain
                    • Robert Kraft
                      ... Here is the title page: A Concordance to the Septuagint And the Other Greek Versions of the Old Testament (Including the Apocryphal Books) Second Edition
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 7, 2003
                        > Professor Kraft,
                        >
                        > I found your excerpt fascinating and possibly relevant to some work I am
                        > doing. Could you give the exact citation for the introduction you quoted? The
                        > library at the university I am at is not very good when it comes to this sort of
                        > material and I want to be sure to request the correct source on Interlibrary
                        > loan.
                        >
                        > Mark Benassi

                        Here is the title page:

                        A Concordance
                        to the Septuagint
                        And the Other Greek Versions of the Old Testament
                        (Including the Apocryphal Books)
                        Second Edition
                        Edwin Hatch
                        and
                        Henry A. Redpath
                        Assisted by Other Scholars
                        "Introductory Essay"
                        by Robert A. Kraft and Emanuel Tov
                        "Hebrew/Aramaic Index to the Septuagint"
                        by Takamitsu Muraoka.\

                        (Grand Rapids MI: Baker Books 1998)

                        I will be adding this material (in a slightly fuller form) to my home page as
                        soon as time permits (it's only been 5 years so far!!). In the printed form, this
                        is pp. xi-xix. I'm responsible mostly for the historical context (background to
                        H-R, prospects), while Emanuel Tov supplied most of the specific linguistic
                        examples.

                        If you need an electronic copy of the essay sooner, let me know and I'll try to
                        comply.

                        Bob

                        --
                        Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                        227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                        kraft@...
                        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                      • Mbenassi48@cs.com
                        Thanks very much. That is exactly what I needed but thanks also for the offer on the electronic version. I m sure ILL can take care of what I need. Mark
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 7, 2003
                          Thanks very much.  That is exactly what I needed but thanks also for the offer on the electronic version.  I'm sure ILL can take care of what I need.

                          Mark Benassi
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