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Re: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6

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  • Steve Puluka
    on 7/11/03 6:14 AM, RRHowell41@aol.com at RRHowell41@aol.com wrote: OK. I have a different question on the same theme. And I apologize, I haven t yet worked
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 12 4:01 AM
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      Re: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6 on 7/11/03 6:14 AM, RRHowell41@... at RRHowell41@... wrote:

      OK.  I have a different question on the same theme.  And I apologize, I haven't yet worked out the transliteration style yet, and have no time this morning.  But while my English translation text on this (From BibleWorks "LXX English Translation (Brenton)") translates the passage "a body thou hast prepared for me,"  the Greek version Bibleworks claims to be the Septuagint "LXX Septuaginta Rahlf's" looks to my rusty Greek like it translates about ears  WTIA DE KATHRTISW.  Comments?  Has Bibleworks let me down?

      Dear RR Howell,

      Bibleworks is giving you the correct text in both cases.  This is a case where text criticism is at work.  In text criticism one tries to study  the differences in various manuscripts and editions of the text and determine which one of the variants is the actual original text (the autograph in TC speak).

      Brenton is simply printing the text of Vatincanus which reads swma.  The Cambridge Handbook LXX by Swete chooses the same base text for their edition.  But they do provide an apparatus with alternative readings from selected major manuscripts.  The alternative in question is NOT in this apparatus as the manuscript is not studied.

      Rahlfs is a critical text.  He places into  the main text that which he thinks is most likely  original.  His apparatus presents the alternative readings and their manuscript support.  For this variant he gives the following notes:

      swma is in Vatincanus, Synaticus & Alexandrinus
      wtia is in Colberto-Sarravianus

      Rahlf takes wtia over swma for his choice of the "original" text.

      --
      Steve Puluka
      Master's Student
      SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
      Pittsburgh, PA
      http://www.geocities.com/spuluka
    • Steve Puluka
      on 7/12/03 7:01 AM, Steve Puluka at spuluka@hotmail.com wrote: Rahlfs is a critical text. He places into the main text that which he thinks is most likely
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 13 6:10 AM
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        Re: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6 on 7/12/03 7:01 AM, Steve Puluka at spuluka@... wrote:

        Rahlfs is a critical text.  He places into  the main text that which he thinks is most likely  original.  His apparatus presents the alternative readings and their manuscript support.  For this variant he gives the following notes:

        swma is in Vatincanus, Synaticus & Alexandrinus
        wtia is in Colberto-Sarravianus**** Correction Psalterium Gallicanum

        Rahlf takes wtia over swma for his choice of the "original" text.

        My apologies to the group, but I made a mistake on which manuscript supports the wtia reading in Psalm 46.  It is the Gallic Psalter VERSION, NOT the Greek manuscript of Colberto-Sarravianus.  I misread the apparatus.

        Sorry for the error.

        --
        Steve Puluka
        Master's Student
        SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
        Pittsburgh, PA
        http://www.geocities.com/spuluka
      • B J BOLAND
        About 200 years ago Adam Clarke in his commentary on Ps 40.6 quoted a Dr Kennicott as suggesting that the present Hebrew text is corrupted in the word oznayim
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 15 11:28 AM
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          About 200 years ago  Adam Clarke in his commentary on Ps 40.6 quoted a Dr Kennicott as suggesting that the present Hebrew text is corrupted in the word oznayim "ears" which had been written through carelessness for azgevah. "then a body". Has this suggestion any merits to explain the LXX reading  ?

          [brian j boland] 
          Halifax UK
           
           
           ----Original Message-----
          From: janinecmiller [mailto:janinecmiller@...]
          Sent: 10 July 2003 19:16
          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [lxx]Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6

          Greetings.

          I am new here, and just beginning to try to understand
          the history of the Bible.  In my research, I have come across
          mention of the Septuagint.  I was trying to find out why
          the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the reference to it in Hebrews
          10:5+6 are so different.  "But my ears you have opened" being
          changed to "But a body you have prepared for me."
          --J







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        • Sigrid Peterson
          ears you have dug for me makes very little sense where it is in the psalm; as 40:7b, sandwiched between 40:7a and 40:7c, which are both about the
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 15 12:02 PM
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            "ears you have dug for me" makes very little sense where it is in the
            psalm; as 40:7b, sandwiched between 40:7a and 40:7c, which are both
            about the needlessness of sacrifices. As a phrase, though, it does make sense,
            where the substitution )ZGVH, "azgvah" for )ZNYM does not make much
            sense, because another word has to be changed also. That is KRYT, "dug."

            The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Dictionary suggests that the
            meaning of the phrase is something like "You have opened my ears to Your
            Word." Briggs and his daughter collaborated on a commentary on Psalms
            which is worth checking.

            It is possible that "body" is not a purely motivated substitution,
            adding a theological proof where there was none, for ideological
            reasons (re the Hebrews 10 usage). Since "ears" would make little sense
            in another language, a translator or re-translator may have looked to
            the preceding verse, 40:6 and found, in the last phrase, the word (CMW,
            'tzmu, which in the context of the line means "many," but which can also
            mean "body" (by extension from 'bones' > 'skeleton' > 'self.'

            I'm at a loss for the rationale used in substituting "body" SOMA at
            40:7c, though, unless 40:6e and f were also rewritten, and I don't have
            an OG translation handy to check.

            Sigrid Peterson petersig@...


            >
            > About 200 years ago Adam Clarke in his commentary on Ps 40.6 quoted a Dr
            > Kennicott as suggesting that the present Hebrew text is corrupted in the
            > word oznayim "ears" which had been written through carelessness for azgevah.
            > "then a body". Has this suggestion any merits to explain the LXX reading ?
            >
            > [brian j boland]
            > Halifax UK
            >
            >
            > ----Original Message-----
            > From: janinecmiller [mailto:janinecmiller@...]
            > Sent: 10 July 2003 19:16
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [lxx]Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6
            >
            > Greetings.
            >
            > I am new here, and just beginning to try to understand
            > the history of the Bible. In my research, I have come across
            > mention of the Septuagint. I was trying to find out why
            > the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the reference to it in Hebrews
            > 10:5+6 are so different. "But my ears you have opened" being
            > changed to "But a body you have prepared for me."
            > --J
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            > class=120500818-15072003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
            > <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=120500818-15072003>About
            > 200 years ago  Adam Clarke in his commentary on Ps 40.6 quoted a Dr
            > Kennicott as suggesting that the present Hebrew text is corrupted in the word
            > oznayim "ears" which had been written through carelessness for azgevah. "then a
            > body". Has this suggestion any merits to explain the LXX reading
            >  ?</SPAN></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN
            > class=120500818-15072003></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma>
            > <DIV><BR><FONT size=2><SPAN class=120500818-15072003><FONT face=Arial
            > color=#0000ff>[brian j boland] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
            > <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
            > class=120500818-15072003>Halifax UK </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
            > <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
            > class=120500818-15072003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
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            > <DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=120500818-15072003> </SPAN>----Original
            > Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> janinecmiller
            > [mailto:janinecmiller@...]<BR><B>Sent:</B> 10 July 2003
            > 19:16<BR><B>To:</B> lxx@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [lxx]Ps 40:6 and Heb
            > 10:5+6<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><TT>Greetings.<BR><BR>I am new here, and just
            > beginning to try to understand <BR>the history of the Bible.  In my
            > research, I have come across<BR>mention of the Septuagint.  I was trying to
            > find out why <BR>the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the reference to it in Hebrews
            > <BR>10:5+6 are so different.  "But my ears you have opened" being
            > <BR>changed to "But a body you have prepared for
            > me."<BR>--J<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></TT><BR><BR><TT>Your
            > use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <A
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