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RE: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6

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  • Billy LeJeune
    The LXX numbers the psalms differently. The hebrews quote comes from LXX psalms 39.6. ... From: janinecmiller [mailto:janinecmiller@yahoo.com] Sent: Thu
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
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      The LXX numbers the psalms differently. The hebrews quote comes from LXX psalms 39.6.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: janinecmiller [mailto:janinecmiller@...]
      Sent: Thu 7/10/2003 1:15 PM
      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      Cc:
      Subject: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6



      Greetings.

      I am new here, and just beginning to try to understand
      the history of the Bible. In my research, I have come across
      mention of the Septuagint. I was trying to find out why
      the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the reference to it in Hebrews
      10:5+6 are so different. "But my ears you have opened" being
      changed to "But a body you have prepared for me."

      When I looked into it, that's when I discoverd the NT
      writers would have quoted the Greek version of the OT,
      the Septuagint. The Hebrew wording would have been changed
      by the translator as best they could into Greek.

      My question, then, is why would the Hebrew not be easily
      enough translated into Greek and still remain a reference to
      opening the ear? Why was it changed so radically?

      If anyone can comment on this, I am grateful. Please do
      try to bring it to my beginners level :) (I've looked through
      your posts, and this is a knowledgable group!)

      Thanks and God Bless!

      --J






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    • Billy LeJeune
      Sorry. I misunderstood your question. For what it s worth here is the note from the netbible: The author has quoted from the LXX, not the Hebrew OT. The phrase
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
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        Sorry. I misunderstood your question. For what it's worth here is the note from the netbible:

        The author has quoted from the LXX, not the Hebrew OT. The phrase a body you prepared for me (in v. 5) is apparently an interpretive expansion of the MT reading “ears you have dug out for me.”

        -----Original Message-----
        From: janinecmiller [mailto:janinecmiller@...]
        Sent: Thu 7/10/2003 1:15 PM
        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        Cc:
        Subject: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6



        Greetings.

        I am new here, and just beginning to try to understand
        the history of the Bible. In my research, I have come across
        mention of the Septuagint. I was trying to find out why
        the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the reference to it in Hebrews
        10:5+6 are so different. "But my ears you have opened" being
        changed to "But a body you have prepared for me."

        When I looked into it, that's when I discoverd the NT
        writers would have quoted the Greek version of the OT,
        the Septuagint. The Hebrew wording would have been changed
        by the translator as best they could into Greek.

        My question, then, is why would the Hebrew not be easily
        enough translated into Greek and still remain a reference to
        opening the ear? Why was it changed so radically?

        If anyone can comment on this, I am grateful. Please do
        try to bring it to my beginners level :) (I've looked through
        your posts, and this is a knowledgable group!)

        Thanks and God Bless!

        --J






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      • jultm777
        Please, refer to message number 350 from the archive. Julian Timnev
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
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          Please, refer to message number 350 from the archive.

          Julian Timnev

          --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "janinecmiller" <janinecmiller@y...>
          wrote:
          > Greetings.
          >
          > I am new here, and just beginning to try to understand
          > the history of the Bible. In my research, I have come across
          > mention of the Septuagint. I was trying to find out why
          > the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the reference to it in Hebrews
          > 10:5+6 are so different. "But my ears you have opened" being
          > changed to "But a body you have prepared for me."
          >
          > When I looked into it, that's when I discoverd the NT
          > writers would have quoted the Greek version of the OT,
          > the Septuagint. The Hebrew wording would have been changed
          > by the translator as best they could into Greek.
          >
          > My question, then, is why would the Hebrew not be easily
          > enough translated into Greek and still remain a reference to
          > opening the ear? Why was it changed so radically?
          >
          > If anyone can comment on this, I am grateful. Please do
          > try to bring it to my beginners level :) (I've looked through
          > your posts, and this is a knowledgable group!)
          >
          > Thanks and God Bless!
          >
          > --J
        • phil-eng
          MY MPhil thesis looks at the differences between the LXX and the MT. Perhaps we may have to accept that there are some differences between the LXX and the MT.
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
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            MY MPhil thesis looks at the differences between the LXX and the MT.
            Perhaps we may have to accept that there are some differences between
            the LXX and the MT. SOme of the differences between the LXX and the MT
            can be explained (such as in Genesis 37:41); However some of the
            differences between the LXX and the MT are more difficult to explain
            (such as in Psalm 40:6).

            Commenting on the note from the netbible, I think there needs to be a
            clearer explanation on the note from the netbible, otherwise we must
            accept that there are differences between the LXX and the MT. Not even
            vowel variations of the MT, Psalm 40:5 (corresponding LXX verse, Psalm
            40:6) helps to resove this difference. The worst part of all of this is
            that the LXX Source text is not extanct i.e. not available, and so
            perhaps we may have to live with some of the differences between the LXX
            and the MT, particularly those differences which are difficult to
            explain, such as in psalm 40:6.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: "Billy LeJeune" <billyl@...>
            To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:22:10 -0500
            Subject: RE: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6

            > <html><body>
            >
            >
            > <tt>
            > Sorry. I misunderstood your question. For what it's worth here is the
            > note from the netbible:
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            > The author has quoted from the LXX, not the Hebrew OT. The phrase a
            > body you prepared for me (in v. 5) is apparently an interpretive
            > expansion of the MT reading “ears you have dug out for me.”
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            > -----Original Message-----
            <BR>
            > From: janinecmiller [mailto:janinecmiller@...]
            <BR>
            > Sent: Thu 7/10/2003 1:15 PM
            <BR>
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            <BR>
            > Cc:
            <BR>
            > Subject: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >       Greetings.
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >       I am new here, and just beginning to try
            > to understand
            <BR>
            >       the history of the Bible.  In my
            > research, I have come across
            <BR>
            >       mention of the Septuagint.  I was
            > trying to find out why
            <BR>
            >       the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the
            > reference to it in Hebrews
            <BR>
            >       10:5+6 are so different.  "But
            > my ears you have opened" being
            <BR>
            >       changed to "But a body you have
            > prepared for me."
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >       When I looked into it, that's when I
            > discoverd the NT
            <BR>
            >       writers would have quoted the Greek
            > version of the OT,
            <BR>
            >       the Septuagint.  The Hebrew wording
            > would have been changed
            <BR>
            >       by the translator as best they could
            > into Greek. 
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >       My question, then, is why would the
            > Hebrew not be easily
            <BR>
            >       enough translated into Greek and still
            > remain a reference to
            <BR>
            >       opening the ear?  Why was it
            > changed so radically?
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >       If anyone can comment on this, I am
            > grateful..  Please do
            <BR>
            >       try to bring it to my beginners level
            > :)  (I've looked through
            <BR>
            >       your posts, and this is a knowledgable
            > group!)
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >       Thanks and God Bless!
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >       --J
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >
            <BR>
            >
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            >
            <BR>
            >
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          • RRHowell41@aol.com
            OK. I have a different question on the same theme. And I apologize, I haven t yet worked out the transliteration style yet, and have no time this morning.
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 11, 2003
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              OK.  I have a different question on the same theme.  And I apologize, I haven't yet worked out the transliteration style yet, and have no time this morning.  But while my English translation text on this (From BibleWorks "LXX English Translation (Brenton)") translates the passage "a body thou hast prepared for me,"  the Greek version Bibleworks claims to be the Septuagint "LXX Septuaginta Rahlf's" looks to my rusty Greek like it translates about ears  WTIA DE KATHRTISW.  Comments?  Has Bibleworks let me down?

              In a message dated 7/11/03 3:28:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, phil-eng@... writes:


              MY MPhil thesis looks at the differences between the LXX and the MT.
              Perhaps we may have to accept that there are some differences between
              the LXX and the MT. SOme of the differences between the LXX and the MT
              can be explained (such as in Genesis 37:41); However some of the
              differences between the LXX and the MT are more difficult to explain
              (such as in Psalm 40:6).


            • James Murphy
              ... Is your MPhil thesis published? Is it possible to obtain a copy? I am in the process of learning Greek, and Hebrew (both on my own) and have studied Latin,
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 11, 2003
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                On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 01:10 AM, phil-eng wrote:

                > MY MPhil thesis looks at the differences between the LXX and the MT.

                Is your MPhil thesis published? Is it possible to obtain a copy?

                I am in the process of learning Greek, and Hebrew (both on my own)
                and have studied Latin, so that would be about as far as I could go as
                it concerns "help" ;-)

                I have found that Jerome doesn't always follow what the current MT
                reads, and I don't mean idioms either, just plain narrative.

                Thanks,

                James
              • Steve Puluka
                on 7/11/03 6:14 AM, RRHowell41@aol.com at RRHowell41@aol.com wrote: OK. I have a different question on the same theme. And I apologize, I haven t yet worked
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 12, 2003
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                  Re: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6 on 7/11/03 6:14 AM, RRHowell41@... at RRHowell41@... wrote:

                  OK.  I have a different question on the same theme.  And I apologize, I haven't yet worked out the transliteration style yet, and have no time this morning.  But while my English translation text on this (From BibleWorks "LXX English Translation (Brenton)") translates the passage "a body thou hast prepared for me,"  the Greek version Bibleworks claims to be the Septuagint "LXX Septuaginta Rahlf's" looks to my rusty Greek like it translates about ears  WTIA DE KATHRTISW.  Comments?  Has Bibleworks let me down?

                  Dear RR Howell,

                  Bibleworks is giving you the correct text in both cases.  This is a case where text criticism is at work.  In text criticism one tries to study  the differences in various manuscripts and editions of the text and determine which one of the variants is the actual original text (the autograph in TC speak).

                  Brenton is simply printing the text of Vatincanus which reads swma.  The Cambridge Handbook LXX by Swete chooses the same base text for their edition.  But they do provide an apparatus with alternative readings from selected major manuscripts.  The alternative in question is NOT in this apparatus as the manuscript is not studied.

                  Rahlfs is a critical text.  He places into  the main text that which he thinks is most likely  original.  His apparatus presents the alternative readings and their manuscript support.  For this variant he gives the following notes:

                  swma is in Vatincanus, Synaticus & Alexandrinus
                  wtia is in Colberto-Sarravianus

                  Rahlf takes wtia over swma for his choice of the "original" text.

                  --
                  Steve Puluka
                  Master's Student
                  SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                  Pittsburgh, PA
                  http://www.geocities.com/spuluka
                • Steve Puluka
                  on 7/12/03 7:01 AM, Steve Puluka at spuluka@hotmail.com wrote: Rahlfs is a critical text. He places into the main text that which he thinks is most likely
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 13, 2003
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                    Re: [lxx] New and Just a Beginner--Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6 on 7/12/03 7:01 AM, Steve Puluka at spuluka@... wrote:

                    Rahlfs is a critical text.  He places into  the main text that which he thinks is most likely  original.  His apparatus presents the alternative readings and their manuscript support.  For this variant he gives the following notes:

                    swma is in Vatincanus, Synaticus & Alexandrinus
                    wtia is in Colberto-Sarravianus**** Correction Psalterium Gallicanum

                    Rahlf takes wtia over swma for his choice of the "original" text.

                    My apologies to the group, but I made a mistake on which manuscript supports the wtia reading in Psalm 46.  It is the Gallic Psalter VERSION, NOT the Greek manuscript of Colberto-Sarravianus.  I misread the apparatus.

                    Sorry for the error.

                    --
                    Steve Puluka
                    Master's Student
                    SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                    Pittsburgh, PA
                    http://www.geocities.com/spuluka
                  • B J BOLAND
                    About 200 years ago Adam Clarke in his commentary on Ps 40.6 quoted a Dr Kennicott as suggesting that the present Hebrew text is corrupted in the word oznayim
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 15, 2003
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                      About 200 years ago  Adam Clarke in his commentary on Ps 40.6 quoted a Dr Kennicott as suggesting that the present Hebrew text is corrupted in the word oznayim "ears" which had been written through carelessness for azgevah. "then a body". Has this suggestion any merits to explain the LXX reading  ?

                      [brian j boland] 
                      Halifax UK
                       
                       
                       ----Original Message-----
                      From: janinecmiller [mailto:janinecmiller@...]
                      Sent: 10 July 2003 19:16
                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [lxx]Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6

                      Greetings.

                      I am new here, and just beginning to try to understand
                      the history of the Bible.  In my research, I have come across
                      mention of the Septuagint.  I was trying to find out why
                      the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the reference to it in Hebrews
                      10:5+6 are so different.  "But my ears you have opened" being
                      changed to "But a body you have prepared for me."
                      --J







                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    • Sigrid Peterson
                      ears you have dug for me makes very little sense where it is in the psalm; as 40:7b, sandwiched between 40:7a and 40:7c, which are both about the
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 15, 2003
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                        "ears you have dug for me" makes very little sense where it is in the
                        psalm; as 40:7b, sandwiched between 40:7a and 40:7c, which are both
                        about the needlessness of sacrifices. As a phrase, though, it does make sense,
                        where the substitution )ZGVH, "azgvah" for )ZNYM does not make much
                        sense, because another word has to be changed also. That is KRYT, "dug."

                        The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Dictionary suggests that the
                        meaning of the phrase is something like "You have opened my ears to Your
                        Word." Briggs and his daughter collaborated on a commentary on Psalms
                        which is worth checking.

                        It is possible that "body" is not a purely motivated substitution,
                        adding a theological proof where there was none, for ideological
                        reasons (re the Hebrews 10 usage). Since "ears" would make little sense
                        in another language, a translator or re-translator may have looked to
                        the preceding verse, 40:6 and found, in the last phrase, the word (CMW,
                        'tzmu, which in the context of the line means "many," but which can also
                        mean "body" (by extension from 'bones' > 'skeleton' > 'self.'

                        I'm at a loss for the rationale used in substituting "body" SOMA at
                        40:7c, though, unless 40:6e and f were also rewritten, and I don't have
                        an OG translation handy to check.

                        Sigrid Peterson petersig@...


                        >
                        > About 200 years ago Adam Clarke in his commentary on Ps 40.6 quoted a Dr
                        > Kennicott as suggesting that the present Hebrew text is corrupted in the
                        > word oznayim "ears" which had been written through carelessness for azgevah.
                        > "then a body". Has this suggestion any merits to explain the LXX reading ?
                        >
                        > [brian j boland]
                        > Halifax UK
                        >
                        >
                        > ----Original Message-----
                        > From: janinecmiller [mailto:janinecmiller@...]
                        > Sent: 10 July 2003 19:16
                        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [lxx]Ps 40:6 and Heb 10:5+6
                        >
                        > Greetings.
                        >
                        > I am new here, and just beginning to try to understand
                        > the history of the Bible. In my research, I have come across
                        > mention of the Septuagint. I was trying to find out why
                        > the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the reference to it in Hebrews
                        > 10:5+6 are so different. "But my ears you have opened" being
                        > changed to "But a body you have prepared for me."
                        > --J
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        > class=120500818-15072003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
                        > <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=120500818-15072003>About
                        > 200 years ago  Adam Clarke in his commentary on Ps 40.6 quoted a Dr
                        > Kennicott as suggesting that the present Hebrew text is corrupted in the word
                        > oznayim "ears" which had been written through carelessness for azgevah. "then a
                        > body". Has this suggestion any merits to explain the LXX reading
                        >  ?</SPAN></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN
                        > class=120500818-15072003></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma>
                        > <DIV><BR><FONT size=2><SPAN class=120500818-15072003><FONT face=Arial
                        > color=#0000ff>[brian j boland] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
                        > <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
                        > class=120500818-15072003>Halifax UK </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
                        > <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
                        > class=120500818-15072003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
                        > <DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=120500818-15072003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
                        > <DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=120500818-15072003> </SPAN>----Original
                        > Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> janinecmiller
                        > [mailto:janinecmiller@...]<BR><B>Sent:</B> 10 July 2003
                        > 19:16<BR><B>To:</B> lxx@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [lxx]Ps 40:6 and Heb
                        > 10:5+6<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><TT>Greetings.<BR><BR>I am new here, and just
                        > beginning to try to understand <BR>the history of the Bible.  In my
                        > research, I have come across<BR>mention of the Septuagint.  I was trying to
                        > find out why <BR>the wording of Psalm 40:6 and the reference to it in Hebrews
                        > <BR>10:5+6 are so different.  "But my ears you have opened" being
                        > <BR>changed to "But a body you have prepared for
                        > me."<BR>--J<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></TT><BR><BR><TT>Your
                        > use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <A
                        > href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</A>.</TT>
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