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[lxx] Re: Fwd: The torah is whose truth?

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  • welovegod
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    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 5, 1999
      --- Steve Kriesle <sol_seeker@...> wrote:
      > From Steve Kriesle Mon Sep 6 00:32:07 1999
      > Received: from [209.194.57.102] by
      > web1405.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 06 Sep 1999 00:32:07
      > PDT
      > Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:32:07 -0700 (PDT)
      > From: Steve Kriesle <sol_seeker@...>
      > Subject: Re: The torah is whose truth?
      > To: Benyamin Pilant <bpilant@...>
      > MIME-Version: 1.0
      > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
      > Content-Length: 4327
      >
      >
      >
      > --- Benyamin Pilant <bpilant@...> wrote:
      > > Why do the christians kill Jews?
      >
      > Christians do not kill Jews.. they are deceivers
      > that say they kill in
      > the name of God.
      >
      > > Who said we are proud and self righteous?
      > Exodus.. thou are a stiif-necked people
      > (proud+impious)
      >
      > > We have had to grovel in the dirt for 2000 years,
      > > under pogroms, inquisitions, arab riots, the
      > >crusaders sword and
      > burned at the stake?
      >
      > What people haven't? Christians were made sport of
      > In Rome. Jesus was
      > crucifed for he rebuked the priests that corrupted
      > the law.
      >
      > > Why is even the Pope apologizing for the cruelty
      > and
      > > unjust killing of Jews during the crusades?
      > Maybe His coffers wants the money and/or the
      > political correctness.
      > Maybe he sees the old pass away and a change of
      > Jewish separatism from
      > other men. Maybe both.
      >
      > > Why does christianity pervert the truth so much
      > that
      > > they are fragmented into hundreds of factions,
      > that >until recently
      > have been killing each other (and Jews)
      > > in bloody wars?
      >
      > Because Christians base theier laws and behavior on
      > the books the Jews
      > wrote.. searching for their place in the world. The
      > torah/OT is a book
      > full of cruelty, hate, wars, pestilence.. and the
      > Jewish rabbis pervert
      > these things into making the evil men as heroes.
      >
      > > Mathew 5:10 says "Blessed are the ones being
      > > persecuted for righteousness' sake for theirs is
      > the
      > > Kingdom of Heaven"
      >
      > OF course.. persecution and repression was the way
      > Jews have behaved
      > since their beginning.. Usury is forbidden by God..
      > but the Jews have
      > said.. only to other Jews.. you can do that to
      > Gentiles.. which is
      > wrong. Its rascist and Christians have reacted to
      > that snobbery with
      > disgust, dismay and some with hate and reverse
      > persecution.
      >
      > > You are ignorant of your own teachings, you
      > probably
      > > can't read Greek or Hebrew, or have any knowledge
      > of >the Church
      > fathers, Justin, > St. Francis, etc. - or >of Church
      > > history,
      > Catholic, Byzantine, Protestant >or of the Crusades.
      >
      > You are mistaken. Read the Septuagint(275BC), or the
      > Vulgate (150AD)and
      > compare that to the Torah (~950AD)
      > and that to the DSS or Qur'an.
      >
      > The Torah lies.. perverts the truth.. and the
      > ignorant masses marches
      > like lemmings to their drum. Blame the Jews for
      > their own destruction
      > of the past.. for their lies and haughty pride has
      > caused them their
      > grievances. And not just in religion but academia
      > and business.. they
      > caused their own grief and the grief of so many.
      >
      > > It is absolutely TRUE that Jesus (Yeshua) was the
      > > seed of the Spiritual Lord in Heaven, the promised
      >
      > > Meshiach (Christ), the savior of all mankind, but
      > > > only because he
      > was a JEW, and he was the
      > > fulfillment of JEWISH promises, according to
      > JEWISH >ORAL TRADITION,
      > of which you are ignorant.
      >
      > Bullshit.. It was the problem child and the father
      > had to give him more
      > guidance.. more laws to set his act stright..
      > instill the fear of God
      > in him for he was a disobediant son.. and then GOd
      > said I will use your
      > assinine behavoir to the common good. I will show
      > the world these
      > peopel carry their own doom with them and ther are
      > too ignorant and
      > prouf to even admit their faults of their fathers..
      > much less of
      > themselves.
      >
      > > Four hundred years ago, your ancestors would be
      > > burning my ancestors at the stake, in a terrible,
      > >fiery death.
      >
      > I do doubt that my ancestors would do such as
      > thing..thoug I know jews
      > that have sold their brothers into slavery, that
      > would bargain with his
      > brother for his birthright for a meal, that would
      > take advantage of his
      > neighbor in times of need.
      >
      > And I know of Jews that looked down up me in school
      > for I was a goy in
      > a prominently jewish community, and i have known
      > Jews that I consider
      > my friends.. but the religion is absurd and the
      > rabbis teach that Jews
      > are chosen, both to their people and to the
      > CHristian.. and that my
      > fried is a LIE and deception.
      >
      > God hath no favorites except the measure of that
      > persons heart and love
      > of their fellow man and creature whcih is GOd..
      >
      > And I say the some to the self righteous so-called
      > christian..
      >
      > >Today, thank God, we are separated by >email.
      >
      > So you could punch me in the nose for speaking the
      > truth? Or would you
      > rather have a UZI in your hand or a knife at my
      > throat?
      >
      > Peace
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
      >


      =====

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    • welovegod
      ... ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 5, 1999
        --- Steve Kriesle <sol_seeker@...> wrote:
        > From Steve Kriesle Mon Sep 6 09:45:52 1999
        > Received: from [209.194.57.85] by
        > web1404.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:45:52
        > PDT
        > Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:45:52 -0700 (PDT)
        > From: Steve Kriesle <sol_seeker@...>
        > Subject: Re: The torah is whose truth?
        > To: Benyamin Pilant <bpilant@...>
        > MIME-Version: 1.0
        > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
        > Content-Length: 5907
        >
        >
        > Greetings!
        > Good.. Then please answer a few questions in the
        > context of your
        > religion.
        >
        > --- Benyamin Pilant <bpilant@...> wrote:
        > > According to Torah and Jewish teaching, it is
        > > ABSOLUTELY wrong to for a Jew to feel superior to
        > > a non-Jew. Jews have been chosen for a mission,
        > and
        > > nothing more. All those who believe in God and
        > walk
        > > in His ways, share in Gods blessing and
        > importance.
        > >If you believe in God, you are my brother.
        >
        > What mission have they been chosen for?
        >
        > > Do not judge Jewish teachings by the ignorant
        > Jews > who barely keep
        > the religion.
        >
        > I do not judge.. but I do interpret the words of
        > the Torah and other
        > scriptures. And if my interpretation be in error,
        > please instruct me in
        > the errors of what I state of my interpretation. For
        > I have my
        > interpretation and you have yours.
        >
        >
        > > You, my friend, are the agressor. I did not seek
        > > you out.
        >
        > Seeking you out is not aggression, it is a learning
        > experience at
        > least to me if not to you.
        >
        > --------------------------------------------------
        > I perceive in my reading of the scripture:
        >
        > Abraham, Isaac and Moses were all a "problem child"
        > and God, the
        > father had to give them more guidance.. more laws to
        > set them on the
        > proper course..For they
        > were all disobediant sons.
        >
        > God said I will use you as an example to show the
        > world that these
        > people carry their own doom with them.
        >
        > - Abraham allowed his wife Sarai to abuse her maid
        > servant and
        > Abraham's first born son. It was Sarai's despise of
        > Hagar and Sarai's
        > feelings of guilt.
        >
        > - Abraham deceived an Egyptian pharaoh and told his
        > wife to lie in both
        > the body and the spirit. He profited from this
        > deception and caused
        > undeserved hardship on this pharaoh.
        >
        > - Abraham cut off his firstborn from his love. ANd
        > GOd commanded
        > Abraham to therefore circumcise himself in the flesh
        > for this
        > injustice, and that of all his seed and generations.
        > For his firstborn
        > was Ishmael.
        >
        > - Abraham questions the Lord goodness pertaining to
        > Gods justice in
        > dealing with Sodom and Gormorrah, and later scoffs
        > and laughs at the
        > Lords ability to have Abraham and Sarah produce a
        > child, as did Sarah.
        >
        > - Abraham disinherits all his children other than
        > Isaac. Abraham
        > commands that his son Isaac take a wife from the
        > land of his
        > forefathers, spurning the inhabitants of where he
        > resided (rascism).
        >
        > - Issac decieves the pharaoh as well, with Rebekah
        > saying she as his
        > sister, so like the father so shall the son be.
        >
        > - Jacob was born, holding on the heel of his older
        > brother Esau. Jacob
        > extorts the birthright of Esau for a meal, and then
        > deceives his father
        > for that blessing.
        > Again, Issac seeks a wife for his son Jacob in the
        > homeland of his
        > fathers spurning the inhabitants of his land
        > (Canaan).
        >
        > - Both Rebakah and Jacob conspire to defraud Esau of
        > his birthright,
        > remember Rebakah favored Isaac for he was rich and
        > gave her gold
        > jewelry.
        >
        > - Jacob takes many wives, Leah and Rachael, and
        > their maidservants, and
        > spurns his firstborn as well.
        >
        > - Jacob cheats Laban out of the strength of his
        > flock and flees with
        > the riches rightly belonging to Leban.
        > Leban confronts Jacob and treats him with kindness,
        > and again Jacob
        > states he is afraid for he knows his sins are great.
        >
        > - So Jacob struggles against the Lord, and in
        > Jacob's mind prevailed.
        > He is now named Israel, for his evil ways he too has
        > been renamed as
        > his his father Abrahm, and Sarai was renamed for
        > their ways.
        >
        > - Jacobs sons' Simeon and levi murder Shechem and
        > Hamor, and pillage
        > all they had. They both deceived and conspired to
        > snare these Honorable
        > men, men that did obey a covenant on the word of
        > Jacob.
        >
        > - The sons of Jacob/Israel sell their brother into
        > slavery to the
        > Egyptians and deceive their father Jacob into
        > thinking he was devoured
        > by beasts.
        >
        > - Joseph prospers in Egypt and they treat him
        > fairly, even when accused
        > by his masters wife of adultery, for he prospered
        > while in the prison.
        > He was released upon interpretating dreams and
        > became Prime minister of
        > Egypt.
        >
        > - Israle asks why his sons did not lie to Joseph (he
        > did not know it
        > was Joseph that his sons speak) concering his
        > youngest son Benjamin..
        >
        > Shall I continue.. shall I speak of the Crimes of
        > Moses? For his are
        > grievious indeed.
        >
        > For Moses hath Murdered his brethren, installed the
        > tribe of Levi as
        > priests, those accomplices of his murders where 3000
        > are said to have
        > died because of Moses Blasphemy of God's word.
        >
        > For the tenor of his words is the testimony of the
        > covenant between
        > God and Israel. Written on both sides so only the
        > believer and those
        > that know GOd's word can see the truth of it.
        >
        > What hast thou to say for thyself and the tribe of
        > Israel?
        >
        > I know that you are not responsible for the sins of
        > thy Fathers.. but
        > as it was written, the inquity of thy fathers visit
        > the sons unto the
        > third and forth generations.
        >
        > AS was also written, the fathers teach the sons his
        > ways, and the ways
        > of the sons are therfore assured unto his
        > generations. Alas, such a
        > curse I do not wish to be blessed for it is a curse
        > for the
        > self-righteous and only when Israel can admit to the
        > errors of their
        > fathers will their salvation be obtained. As it was
        > in the beginning
        > and it shall forever shall be.
        >
        > Love thy Neighbor, SPeak only the truth.. open up
        > thy eyes and see the
        > light of God:
        >
        > Peace, Love and hope for a better tomorrow!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > SO we have two versions of the story of the pharaoh
        > and Abrahams sin,
        > two stories of Sarah and Abrahams dealing with his
        > son Ishmael and
        > Hagar, two stories of
        > Sodom and Gormorrah.
        >
        > And what of the Angel of HaShem, the "Here am I"?
        > For is it God that orders Abraham to sacrifice his
        > son?
        > Nah, for it is Adonai-jireh, the most beautiful one.
        > 'Take now thy son thine only son whom thou lovest'
        > is truly not God's
        > love, for Abraham's first was Ishmael.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
        >


        =====

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
      • james and tatyana miller
        LXX Group members: Just a reminder about some group protocol matters: a. please stay on-topic (LXX studies or closely related) b. please do not make claims
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 5, 1999
          LXX Group members:

          Just a reminder about some group protocol matters:

          a. please stay on-topic (LXX studies or closely related)
          b. please do not make claims without arguing for
          them (which is what constitutes prostelytization).
          c. please avoid ad hominem argumentation as it can lead to problems.

          Our apologies for any difficulties with receiving unwarranted messages. We
          will continue to try and make this list a locale for serious discussion of
          the LXX and its field of study.

          Moderators
        • S. M. Kelly
          Thank you, moderators! I was one post away from unsubscribing! I thought this was becoming War of the Off-Topic Flame-throwers as opposed to a scholarly
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 6, 1999
            Thank you, moderators! I was one post away from unsubscribing! I thought
            this was becoming "War of the Off-Topic Flame-throwers" as opposed to a
            scholarly discussion of the LXX.

            I am wondering if anyone has had any time with UBS's new two volume lexicon
            for the LXX. Is it worth getting? Any comments?

            S. M. Kelly
            *********************************************
            smkelly@...





            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: james and tatyana miller [mailto:jamtat@...]
            > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 10:52 PM
            > To: lxx@egroups.com
            > Subject: [lxx] Re: lxx list protocol
            >
            >
            > LXX Group members:
            >
            > Just a reminder about some group protocol matters:
            >
            > a. please stay on-topic (LXX studies or closely related)
            > b. please do not make claims without arguing for
            > them (which is what constitutes prostelytization).
            > c. please avoid ad hominem argumentation as it can lead to problems.
            >
            > Our apologies for any difficulties with receiving unwarranted messages. We
            > will continue to try and make this list a locale for serious discussion of
            > the LXX and its field of study.
            >
            > Moderators
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
            > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • james miller
            Dear SM Kelly: I am not familiar with UBS s new two volume lexicon for the LXX , but any new LXX lexicon is of interest to me. I had not even heard of this
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 10, 1999
              Dear SM Kelly:

              I am not familiar with "UBS's new two volume lexicon for the LXX", but any
              new LXX lexicon is of interest to me. I had not even heard of this one, and
              so was waiting for someone else to respond. I'm wondering if maybe you're
              not referring to the German Bible Society's (Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft) 2
              vol edition, compiled by J. Lust, E. Eynikel and K. Hauspie, whose second
              volume was published recently (1996)? If so, although I have this one I
              can't say much about it since I only very recently acquired it. But this
              clarification, if it applies to your question, could help get some further
              response.

              James Miller


              At 06:33 AM 10/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
              >Thank you, moderators! I was one post away from unsubscribing! I thought
              >this was becoming "War of the Off-Topic Flame-throwers" as opposed to a
              >scholarly discussion of the LXX.
              >
              >I am wondering if anyone has had any time with UBS's new two volume lexicon
              >for the LXX. Is it worth getting? Any comments?
              >
              >S. M. Kelly
              >*********************************************
              >smkelly@...
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: james and tatyana miller [mailto:jamtat@...]
              >> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 10:52 PM
              >> To: lxx@egroups.com
              >> Subject: [lxx] Re: lxx list protocol
              >>
              >>
              >> LXX Group members:
              >>
              >> Just a reminder about some group protocol matters:
              >>
              >> a. please stay on-topic (LXX studies or closely related)
              >> b. please do not make claims without arguing for
              >> them (which is what constitutes prostelytization).
              >> c. please avoid ad hominem argumentation as it can lead to problems.
              >>
              >> Our apologies for any difficulties with receiving unwarranted messages. We
              >> will continue to try and make this list a locale for serious discussion of
              >> the LXX and its field of study.
              >>
              >> Moderators
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >>
              >> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
              >> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
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            • Joseph Crea
              Hello James! ... CREA Yep, the set offered by the ABS is indeed the 2-vol. Lust/Eynikel/Hauspie text (GBS, 1992/1996). It s tentatively on my wish-list
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 10, 1999
                Hello James!

                At 04:46 PM 10/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
                >Dear SM Kelly:
                >
                >I am not familiar with "UBS's new two volume lexicon for the LXX", but any
                >new LXX lexicon is of interest to me. I had not even heard of this one, and
                >so was waiting for someone else to respond. I'm wondering if maybe you're
                >not referring to the German Bible Society's (Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft) 2
                >vol edition, compiled by J. Lust, E. Eynikel and K. Hauspie, whose second
                >volume was published recently (1996)? If so, although I have this one I
                >can't say much about it since I only very recently acquired it. But this
                >clarification, if it applies to your question, could help get some further
                >response.


                CREA
                Yep, the set offered by the ABS is indeed the 2-vol.
                Lust/Eynikel/Hauspie text (GBS, 1992/1996). It's tentatively on my
                "wish-list" along with the latest reprint of the Hatch/Repath concordance
                (with additions by Takimitsu Muraoka). Looks like I'm going to be eating a
                LOT of beans and rice in order to "feed" my LXX habit! ;-)


                With Mettaa,

                Joseph Crea
                <Joseph.Crea@...>
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