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Re: [lxx] MT/LXX Parallel Database

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  • Sigrid Peterson
    ... The Kraft and Tov UPENN Parallel Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek Database is the basis for a neat project to portray verses in parallel using the world wide
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 15, 2003
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      >
      > Greetings.
      >
      > Don't confuse the MT/LXX Parallel Database (the raw data compiled by
      > Kraft and Tov at UPENN) with the Mac software created by Galen

      The Kraft and Tov UPENN Parallel Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek Database is
      the basis for a neat project to portray verses in parallel using the world
      wide web. The creator is William C. "Chip" Gruen, who used the Parallel
      texts of the Pentateuch in his work. The comparison is of individual
      verses; one can input Book (English) and verse (Arabic numerals) and get
      accented Greek and unpointed Hebrew side by side. It's available at:

      http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~gruen/ under "parallel texts" on the left.

      If anyone is still using WordPerfect 5.1 and ScriptureFonts, I developed a
      method using that software that presents all of the text of any particular
      book in accented Greek and pointed Hebrew side by side. It's good for
      locating pluses and minuses; I did it for Jeff Tigay when he was writing
      his commentary on Deuteronomy.

      > Marquis of Hebrew University and which uses the CATSS database. The
      > Accordance program also uses this database, but it features little
      > more than basic searches.
      >
      > Tom Jernstad
      > Seoul, Korea
      >

      Sigrid Peterson
      petersig@...
    • The Sandbergs
      Thanks for the information everyone This Gruen s link is nice and it works! I assume that Gruen s will only work with the SP fonts? No doubt I ll visit here
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 15, 2003
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        Thanks for the information everyone

        This Gruen�s link is nice and it works! I assume that Gruen�s will only work with the SP fonts? No doubt I�ll visit here again.

        I must say that that CATSS  MT/LXX Parallel and Morph Database have been of great assistance to me. I just noticed however the links no longer work. Even those in TC are not working for me. Someone know what�s up?

        Mark Sandberg

        At 03:45 PM 1/15/03 -0500, you wrote:

        >
        > Greetings.
        >
        > Don't confuse the MT/LXX Parallel Database (the raw data compiled by
        > Kraft and Tov at UPENN) with the Mac software created by Galen

        The Kraft and Tov UPENN Parallel Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek Database is
        the basis for a neat project to portray verses in parallel using the world
        wide web. The creator is William C. "Chip" Gruen, who used the Parallel
        texts of the Pentateuch in his work. The comparison is of individual
        verses; one can input Book (English) and verse (Arabic numerals) and get
        accented Greek and unpointed Hebrew side by side. It's available at:

        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~gruen/  under "parallel texts" on the left.

        If anyone is still using WordPerfect 5.1 and ScriptureFonts, I developed a
        method using that software that presents all of the text of any particular
        book in accented Greek and pointed Hebrew side by side. It's good for
        locating pluses and minuses; I did it for Jeff Tigay when he was writing
        his commentary on Deuteronomy.

        > Marquis of Hebrew University and which uses the CATSS database.  The
        > Accordance program also uses this database, but it features little
        > more than basic searches.
        >
        > Tom Jernstad
        > Seoul, Korea
        >

        Sigrid Peterson
        petersig@...


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      • Sigrid Peterson
        Xairein. I m quoting your first message, Tom, and responding to both your first and second summaries of the issue. The second ended with the plea for some
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 16, 2003
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          Xairein.

          I'm quoting your first message, Tom, and responding to both your first and
          second summaries of the issue. The second ended with the plea for some
          understanding of why Marquis has not made his program available.

          When I did the Greek - Hebrew printout of the Tov-Kraft-CATSS 'Parallel
          Aligned Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Jewish Scriptures, I was told of the
          Marquis program--but it was on a Macintosh, not a PC-Compatible machine,
          and we at Penn CATSS did not have it, anyway. I believe that it was then
          explained that Marquis had only shared it with one or two other research
          teams, who used it in Jerusalem.

          From some acquaintance with the history of CCAT/CATSS projects since 1990
          or so, the general idea has been to produce the texts in ASCII form with
          coding for accents--as databases with a few programs to manipulate the
          one word per line database form into readable verses, still in ASCII. The
          programs could also strip away a designated amount of the coding, so that
          the ASCII words alone would appear. This involves intepreting "(O/ QEO/S
          TO/N OURANO/N" in Greek, and ")LHYM )T H$MYM" in Hebrew. Most of Bob
          Kraft's students can read the raw ASCII code after a little practice with
          it, though using DOS-based programs to deal with the ASCII code is less
          and less practical, with Windows' latest version not encouraging access to
          DOS.

          Anyway, I could go on and on, but won't. I think that three things I've
          seen happen in the US branch of CATSS may also have affected Marquis's
          hopes for his system, and his willingness to share it.

          1) The need to support the system. Israelis, in particular, are much
          more familiar with PCs and Windows machines than with Macs, so he would
          have to train users not only in his system but also in the Macintosh OS.
          Here at the US CATSS, we still get a few people who want to purchase
          the texts, and then, because they are in ASCII and can only be manipulated
          by DOS programs, need either a refund or somebody's time spent describing
          how to download SP fonts, and how a DOS program works, if they've gotten
          the PC version. I get these for PC, now, and someone else for Macs.

          2) The CCAT/CATTS databases are in ASCII, and many tools exist for
          searching the databases. Bible software companies have purchased other
          of the CCAT/CATTS databases, and added proprietary fonts and searches and
          links. Very few people other than Jeff Tigay are going to want to print
          out the first eleven chapters of Deuteronomy in parallel Hebrew and Greek,
          with coding for pluses and minuses. For one thing, when I developed a way
          to do it, the more easily readable form was not phrase by phrase (where
          *I* determined the phrasing), but one word per line. For any lengthy
          production of the Tov-Kraft-CATSS Parallel Aligned Hebrew-Aramaic and
          Greek Jewish Scriptures, a determination of phrasing would be necessary.

          In other words, I think the Bible software people looked at what they
          would want to produce, and decided not to try it with the Parallel Aligned
          Texts. For the same reason that your Korean software program decided it
          would be very expensive, for very little return.

          Marquis's system was a labor of love, rather than a practical software
          system, I suspect. He built it and knows how to use it, but for anyone
          else to use it requires that person to be a Macintosh programmer from the
          eighties, who is familiar with the ASCII form of the Parallel Aligned
          Texts, as well as with search algorithms and sophisticated output
          designations to achieve the screen displays you mention.

          3) The world of potential users of any system changes with the hardware,
          every three years or so, so that, for example, graduate students around
          here *do* learn to read BETA CODE for Greek, or MICHIGAN-CLAREMONT code
          for Hebrew, or both, but the machines they use in the computer lab, or
          have at home, generally don't run DOS, or old Macintosh OS, and there are
          any number of problems in working with what's perceived not to be
          up-to-date.

          4) Did I say three? Well, also, the Parallel-Aligned Hebrew-ARamaic and
          Greek Jewish Scriptures database was not conceived of as a stand-alone
          tool. I think that both Tov and Kraft want to see the additional part of
          the project completed, and that is the Greek variants for the LXX/OG. I'd
          remind you that the reason some projects are limited to the Pentateuch is
          that strictly speaking the Septuagint is comprised only of the Pentateuch.
          Then, the Parallel Aligned Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Jewish Scriptures
          database would serve as the spine for a complex and complete system that
          would give us electronic access to the variants for a particular verse,
          chapter, book, group of books, etc, beyond the variations between the
          Greek and Hebrew that the Tov-Kraft-CATSS Parallel Text does.

          I'll copy this to Bob Kraft and Jay Treat (resident Macintosh guru) to see
          if there's anything they want to add or to change.

          Sigrid Peterson University of Pennsylvania petersig@...

          >
          > Greetings.
          >
          > In 1989, before an annual gathering of the International Organization
          > for Septuagint and Cognate Studies (meeting in Leuven, Belgium),
          > Galen Marquis of Hebrew University described in detail a
          > sophisticated computer program he had developed to investigate the
          > CATSS MT/LXX parallel database (which is currently available only in
          > GRAMCORD's Accordance for Macintosh -- the database, that is, and not
          > Marquis' program). I e-mailed him five years or so ago asking when
          > the program would be available for purchase or whatever. He replied
          > that he wasn't sure because it was not a high priority, if I remember
          > correctly what he wrote.
          >
          > Well, recently he and Frank Polak published "A Classified Index of
          > the Minuses of the Septuagint, Parts 1 and 2" (University of
          > Stellenbosch, 2002), and he obviously used his program to compile the
          > material for these two books (the minuses are restricted to the
          > Pentateuch, so who knows when they will get around to publishing the
          > minuses and pluses found in the other books).
          >
          > I have sent several e-mails to Galen Marquis asking him when he was
          > going to start sharing his program with the outside world, so to
          > speak, or at least making it available for purchase, but they (the e-
          > mails) have gone unreplied or perhaps ignored.
          >
          > I was wondering if anyone on this list knows anything more about this
          > program or could explain why he seems so reluctant to share a program
          > he demonstrated before a group of Septuagintalists with these
          > words: "in a form easily available to all biblical scholars, and
          > Septuagint scholars in particular. All, that is, having access to a
          > Macintosh computer" (p. 165, VII Congress of the IOSCS, Leuven 1989,
          > Septuagint and Cognate Studies 31).
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Tom Jernstad
          > Seoul, Korea
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • c.s.bartholomew@worldnet.att.net
          Thanks to Sigrid for explaining the history of this issue. ... Yes and since there is an implementation of an MT/LXX database on the Mac it would be rather a
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 16, 2003
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            Thanks to Sigrid for explaining the history of this issue.


            on 1/16/03 12:10 AM Sigrid Peterson wrote:

            > Marquis's system was a labor of love, rather than a practical software
            > system, I suspect. He built it and knows how to use it, but for anyone
            > else to use it requires that person to be a Macintosh programmer from the
            > eighties . . .

            Yes and since there is an implementation of an MT/LXX database on the Mac it
            would be rather a waste of time to duplicate the effort.

            This morning while my breakfast was cooking I spend a few minutes setting up
            three MT/LXX windows in Accordance 5.6.1c which allow me to view the minuses
            in Exodus. The first MT/LXX window searches for the long minus symbol in the
            entire MT/LXX tool. The second window searches for every verse in Exodus and
            the third window merges the contents of the two windows.

            The third window shows each long minus in Exodus which can be saved to a
            .pdf file which I could send to anyone who wants to see it. This capability
            has been around since Accordance 4.x so it isn't really new. I just set it
            up again in Accordance 4.5, took less than 90 seconds to set up.

            This sort of search is very simple in Accordance. So I cannot understand why
            anyone would want to resurrect a late 80's Mac program that was built to
            satisfy the needs of a particular research project when a general tool is
            available to anyone with a Mac who wants to spend a few $$$$.

            If anyone has a particular search they want done for a real research
            project, not just idle curiosity, contact me off list and I will see what I
            can do for you.


            greetings, clay




            --
            Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
            Three Tree Point
            P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
          • otis simpson
            ... isa 52:13-53:12 for over a year and am looking for as many sources as possible and it would be big help to have another. THANX otis simpson
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 16, 2003
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              --- c.s.bartholomew@... wrote:
              > Thanks to Sigrid for explaining the history of this
              > issue.
              >
              >
              > on 1/16/03 12:10 AM Sigrid Peterson wrote:
              >
              > > Marquis's system was a labor of love, rather than
              > a practical software
              > > system, I suspect. He built it and knows how to
              > use it, but for anyone
              > > else to use it requires that person to be a
              > Macintosh programmer from the
              > > eighties . . .
              >
              > Yes and since there is an implementation of an
              > MT/LXX database on the Mac it
              > would be rather a waste of time to duplicate the
              > effort.
              >
              > This morning while my breakfast was cooking I spend
              > a few minutes setting up
              > three MT/LXX windows in Accordance 5.6.1c which
              > allow me to view the minuses
              > in Exodus. The first MT/LXX window searches for the
              > long minus symbol in the
              > entire MT/LXX tool. The second window searches for
              > every verse in Exodus and
              > the third window merges the contents of the two
              > windows.
              >
              > The third window shows each long minus in Exodus
              > which can be saved to a
              > .pdf file which I could send to anyone who wants to
              > see it. This capability
              > has been around since Accordance 4.x so it isn't
              > really new. I just set it
              > up again in Accordance 4.5, took less than 90
              > seconds to set up.
              >
              > This sort of search is very simple in Accordance. So
              > I cannot understand why
              > anyone would want to resurrect a late 80's Mac
              > program that was built to
              > satisfy the needs of a particular research project
              > when a general tool is
              > available to anyone with a Mac who wants to spend a
              > few $$$$.
              >
              > If anyone has a particular search they want done for
              > a real research
              > project, not just idle curiosity, contact me off
              > list and I will see what I
              > can do for you.
              >
              >
              > greetings, clay
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
              > Three Tree Point
              > P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
              >
              >ive been translating and comparing DSS with LXX of
              isa 52:13-53:12 for over a year and am looking for as
              many sources as possible and it would be big help to
              have another.
              THANX
              otis simpson
              benadamaqa9@...


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            • Richard Burks
              To the list owner ... I am changing my email address this week and I have lxx list messages sent automatically to my email. How do I change this in the
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 20, 2003
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                To the list owner ...


                I am changing my email address this week and I have lxx list messages sent
                automatically to my email. How do I change this in the system.

                My old email: rwburks@... will no longer be active past January 24.
                My new email rburks9400@... will be active beginning 1-22.

                Thanks

                Bill Burks
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