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Re: [lxx] Re: Which Lxx?

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  • Kevin P. Edgecomb
    Folks, I ve got the NETS Psalms volume by Pietersma. Regarding any application of their translation principle 7, however, I don t think it was followed all
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 11, 2003
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      Folks,
      I've got the NETS Psalms volume by Pietersma. Regarding any application of
      their translation principle 7, however, I don't think it was followed all
      that strictly with reference to the NRSV being the base text and varied
      only when the LXX varies from the MT. If such were followed strictly, the
      MT/LXX differences don't warrant the number and range of difference between
      the NRSV/NETS.

      For comparison:
      Pietersma's Psalm 22(23)
      A Psalm. Pertaining to David.
      The Lord shepherds me, and I shall lack nothing.
      In a verdant place there he made me tent;
      by restful water he reared me;
      he restored my soul.
      He led me into righteous paths
      for his name's sake.
      For even if I walk in the midst of death's shadow,
      I will fear no evil; for you are with me;
      your rod and your staff -- they comforted me.
      You prepared a table before me over against those that afflict me;
      you anointed my head with oil;
      and your cup was intoxicating like the best.
      And your steadfast love shall pursue me all the days of my life,
      and my residing in the house of te Lord shall be for length of days.

      NRSV Psalm 23
      A Psalm of David.
      The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want.
      He makes me lie down in green pastures;
      he leads me beside still waters;
      he restores my soul.
      He leads me in right paths
      for his name's sake.
      Even though I walk through the darkest valley,
      I fear no evil; for you are with me;
      your rod and your staff -- they comfort me.
      You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
      you anoint my head with oil;
      my cup overflows.
      Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
      and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD my whole life long.

      So, in practice, if anything the NETS project is more LXX-biased, relying
      much more upon the translators' own English versions rather than the
      NRSV. For anyone wanting a quick comparison with the NRSV to find LXX
      differences, NETS doesn't really achieve that goal.

      Regards,
      Kevin P. Edgecomb
      Berkeley, California


      At 09:47 PM 1/11/2003 +0000, you wrote:
      >Nektarii,
      >
      >I do not see a MT bias in principle #7. I understand the statement to
      >be that when the Lxx seems to be rendering a Vorlage that is
      >similar to the MT, the translators will use what they believe to be a
      >standard English rendering of the MT, i.e., the NRSV. When the Lxx
      >does not seem to reflect a similar Vorlage, it will represent this
      >faithfully. There is no MT bias here. Instead there is a bais if any
      >toward the English of the NRSV.
      >
      >This is a problem since the NRSV does not faithfully represent the
      >MT. The JPS Tanakh would have been much better since it slavishly
      >presents the MT.
      >
      >Another problem is how to determine when the Lxx's Hebrew Vorlage
      >was the same as the MT or Proto-MT. Since the Lxx can at times be a
      >literal rendering or more fluid. See Ofofsson's The Lxx Version, pp.
      >5-23 (Translation Theory and Translation Technique).
      >
      >David
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Schmuel
      Hi LXX, Recently an unusual claim was made that the Masoretic Hebrew-Aramaic Text was actually back-translated from the Greek. The Masoretic Text extant was
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 7, 2003
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        Hi LXX,

        Recently an unusual claim was made that the Masoretic Hebrew-Aramaic Text
        was actually back-translated from the Greek.

        "The Masoretic Text extant was produced in the 9th century and the Rabbinical scholars who produced it had no Hebrew texts of many of the minor prophets and the five scrolls so they used the LXX to translate those texts."

        The support claimed for this was..
        - Invitation to the Septuagint, Moises Silva, Chapter 7 (co-author Professor Karen Jobes)

        Would someone who has this book handy see if there really is such a claim ?

        Or would share any relevant details ?

        Thanks.

        Shalom,
        Steven Avery
        Queens, NY


        Schmuel@...
        www.messiahresearch.com
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
      • Robert Kraft
        A very quick skimming through Silva-Jobes chapter 7 (on Using the Septuagint for the Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible) reveals the impossibility of
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 7, 2003
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          A very quick skimming through Silva-Jobes chapter 7 (on "Using the Septuagint
          for the Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible) reveals the impossibility of
          attributing such a view to them. The chapter closes with a longish section on
          the problems of Samuel-Kings, in which Barthelemy's study of the Nahal Hever
          Minor Prophets scroll is mentioned (p. 159), but otherwise I don't see reference
          to the "minor prophets."

          There is an interesting quotation that an inattentive person with a prior theory
          might be able to twist into something like the claim you cite. In discussing
          retroversions from Greek to Hebrew, and the dangers of poorly anchored
          proposals, we find "For instance, Stephen Pisano argues that the Hebrew text of
          the Qumran scroll [4QSam\c] was corrected to agree with the Greek version of
          Samuel and that therefore the shorter text in MT is the original reading here"
          (p.157). But this has nothing to do with MT retroversions towards LXX/OG, and
          nothing to do with Pentateuch or Minor Prophets -- and indeed, it acknowledges
          the value of the MT against LXX/OG and the Qumran fragment, for Pisano at least.

          Bob

          > Hi LXX,
          >
          > Recently an unusual claim was made that the Masoretic Hebrew-Aramaic Text
          > was actually back-translated from the Greek.

          > "The Masoretic Text extant was produced in the 9th century and the Rabbinical
          scholars who produced it had no Hebrew texts of many of the minor prophets and
          the five scrolls so they used the LXX to translate those texts."

          > The support claimed for this was..

          > - Invitation to the Septuagint, Moises Silva, Chapter 7 (co-author Professor
          Karen Jobes)

          > Would someone who has this book handy see if there really is such a claim ? >
          > Or would share any relevant details ? > > Thanks. > > Shalom, > Steven Avery >

          --
          Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
          227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
          kraft@...
          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
        • Mark Sandberg
          Hello Steven, While I don t have Invitation to the Septuagint I cannot investigate this claim of a Greek text being translated word for word back into
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 7, 2003
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            Hello Steven,

            While I don’t have "Invitation to the Septuagint" I cannot investigate this claim of a Greek text being translated word for word back into Hebrew. However I do know off hand Han Drijvers, "Aramaic in Palmyrene Inscriptions" interestingly discusses bilingual syntax difficulties and disadvantages of rendering a verbum e verbo translation from Greek into the receptor language, Aramaic. The claim made is that the Aramaic of Palmyrene has become hellenized and exhibits expressions that are fundamentally alien to the Aramaic language which bring about neologisms or unusual word combinations when translated to Aramaic.

            Best to all,

            MS

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Schmuel
            Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 1:06 AM
            Subject: [lxx] Masoretic Text translated from the Greek ?

            Hi LXX,

               Recently an unusual claim was made that the Masoretic Hebrew-Aramaic Text
            was actually back-translated from the Greek.

            "The Masoretic Text extant was produced in the 9th century and the Rabbinical scholars who produced it had no Hebrew texts of many of the minor prophets and the five scrolls so they used the LXX to translate those texts."

            The support claimed for this was..
            -  Invitation to the Septuagint, Moises Silva,  Chapter 7 (co-author Professor Karen Jobes)

               Would someone who has this book handy see if there really is such a claim ?
              
               Or would share any relevant details ?

              Thanks.

            Shalom,
            Steven Avery
            Queens, NY


            Schmuel@...
            www.messiahresearch.com
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Harold P. Scanlin
            My reading of Jobes-Silva completely agrees with Bob Kraft s. The only argument that remotely resembles the question is C. C. Torrey s claim that the Hebrew
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 8, 2003
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              My reading of Jobes-Silva completely agrees with Bob Kraft’s.  The only argument that remotely resembles the question is C. C. Torrey’s claim that the Hebrew Sirach which was found in the Ciaro Geniza was a poorly done medieval Hebrew translation of the Greek original.  Little more than a decade after Torrey made this claim, a first century CE copy of the Hebrew text was found at Masada!  Besides, this isn’t Pentateuch or Minor Prophets.

               

              Harold P. Scanlin

              41 Waldheim Park

              Allentown, PA  18103

              voice  610-791-9146

              fax  610-791-0439

              harold.scanlin@...

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Robert Kraft [mailto:kraft@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 11:59 AM
              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [lxx] Masoretic Text translated from the Greek ?

               

              A very quick skimming through Silva-Jobes chapter 7 (on "Using the Septuagint
              for the Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible) reveals the impossibility of
              attributing such a view to them. The chapter closes with a longish section on
              the problems of Samuel-Kings, in which Barthelemy's study of the Nahal Hever
              Minor Prophets scroll is mentioned (p. 159), but otherwise I don't see reference
              to the "minor prophets."

              There is an interesting quotation that an inattentive person with a prior theory
              might be able to twist into something like the claim you cite. In discussing
              retroversions from Greek to Hebrew, and the dangers of poorly anchored
              proposals, we find "For instance, Stephen Pisano argues that the Hebrew text of
              the Qumran scroll [4QSam\c] was corrected to agree with the Greek version of
              Samuel and  that therefore the shorter text in MT is the original reading here"
              (p.157). But this has nothing to do with MT retroversions towards LXX/OG, and
              nothing to do with Pentateuch or Minor Prophets -- and indeed, it acknowledges
              the value of the MT against LXX/OG and the Qumran fragment, for Pisano at least.

              Bob

              > Hi LXX,
              >
              >    Recently an unusual claim was made that the Masoretic Hebrew-Aramaic Text
              > was actually back-translated from the Greek.

              > "The Masoretic Text extant was produced in the 9th century and the Rabbinical
              scholars who produced it had no Hebrew texts of many of the minor prophets and
              the five scrolls so they used the LXX to translate those texts."

              > The support claimed for this was..

              > - Invitation to the Septuagint, Moises Silva, Chapter 7 (co-author Professor
              Karen Jobes)

              > Would someone who has this book handy see if there really is such a claim ? >
              > Or would share any relevant details ? >

              > Thanks. > > Shalom, > Steven Avery >


              --
              Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
              227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
              kraft@...
              http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html


              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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