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Re: [lxx] Zechariah 6:13 - and he shall be a priest upon his throne

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  • George Blaisdell
    Be not troubling of you the heart... [From the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 1.] ... What would be wrong with: There shall be a priest from his right
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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      "Be not troubling of you the heart..."
      [From the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 1.]




      >From: Steve
      >Could you help us with the LXX version of
      >Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)

      >And speak unto him, saying,
      >Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
      >Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
      > and he shall grow up out of his place,
      > and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
      >Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
      > and he shall bear the glory,
      > and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
      > **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
      > and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
      >
      >One friend gave me this...
      >estau o iereus ek dexion
      >he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
      >verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
      >take place, live....
      >(note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is
      >branch".)
      >
      >Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the
      >Branch,
      >or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
      >where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

      What would be wrong with:
      "There shall be a priest from his right hand."

      Or: "Out of his right hand shall be a priest."

      Branch would seem to be the possessor of the right hand, and the priest the
      other party [other than the branch] of the "both"...

      Just a couple of thoughts...

      geo

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    • Philip Engmann
      Dear Listees, I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT. I know
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
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        Dear Listees,

        I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

        I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any more specific suggestions?

        I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX and MT).

         



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      • kv.baker1
        Dear Philip, L.C.Allen s work The Greek Chronicles: The Relation of the Septuagint of 1 and 2 Chronicles to the Massoretic Text would provide a very thorough
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
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          Dear Philip,
          L.C.Allen's work The Greek Chronicles: The Relation of the Septuagint of 1 and 2 Chronicles to the Massoretic Text would provide a very thorough base for the kind of work that you are proposing. It has often occurred to me that his (excellent) study could do with some updating. No one has developed his thesis since 1974, I think (??).
          Dr Ken Baker
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 10:04 PM
          Subject: [lxx] LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

          Dear Listees,

          I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

          I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any more specific suggestions?

          I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX and MT).

           



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        • Michael Jay
          This is interesting to me also... My language as a student was Greek -- and I ve started comparing the LXX to the MT in order to learn Hebrew (I ve now made a
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2002
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            This is interesting to me also... My language as a student was
            Greek -- and I've started comparing the LXX to the MT in order to
            learn Hebrew (I've now made a translation of almost half of Genesis,
            with notes on differences and questions of whether the differences
            were real, or a standard idiom of translation. (such as Enoch
            pleased God (greek) and Enoch walked with God (hebrew.) I also
            thought this would be a potential area of Ph.D. work; unfortunately
            I'm still deep in language study and I've no solid proposal yet.

            The most remarkable difference that I've found so far is the
            difference in the years of life and of the birth children in the
            lists -- both from Adam to Noe/ Noach, and from Noe to Abram. I
            understand the the Samaritian text is different from both. If the
            source materials could be found, this would be an interesting project.

            I think it would be interesting to identify which areas, where the
            translation to English would be different represent a different
            textform, and which ones represent the translation of a standard
            idiom (such as <name> walked with God all his days (hebrew) and
            <Name> pleased God all his days... (Or even the use of the dual
            Shamayim (heavens) while the Greek uses the singular Uranus. (heaven)

            Michael Jay



            >
            > I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation
            into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.
            >
            > I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any
            more specific suggestions?
            >
            > I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF
            SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX
            and MT).
          • Schmuel
            Shalom LXX Michael Jay ... This is discussed on a number of papers, fairly well represented on the Web.. Now I think the Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance was
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2002
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              Shalom LXX

              Michael Jay
              >The most remarkable difference that I've found so far is the
              >difference in the years of life and of the birth children in the
              >lists -- both from Adam to Noe/ Noach, and from Noe to Abram. I
              >understand the the Samaritian text is different from both. If the
              >source materials could be found, this would be an interesting project.

              This is discussed on a number of papers, fairly well represented on the Web..

              Now I think the Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance was one of the ones
              that I liked the most... many are on the Web, so it shouldn't be too hard
              to find...... I could check around for some of the other better
              discussions, too

              Shalom,
              Steven Avery
              Bayside, NY


              Schmuel@...

              Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
            • Michael Jay <jaymichael@hotmail.com>
              I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not find it in the Church Father s, (yet) but I ve not found anything on the web I couldn t
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
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                I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not
                find it in the Church Father's, (yet) but I've not found anything on
                the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary. (A nice detailed
                article pointing out what the difference is, and how they accumulate
                to make for very different dates -- with a table or graph.) I also
                made one of my own limited to LXX and MT.

                By source material, I mean the things I would need to use to prepare
                an ecclectic text, and to argue which reading was most authritative.
                I only have the MT (both electronic and in print), two different
                electronic LXX textforms, Brenton's LXX in print, and the Vulgate.

                I do not know where to find a copy of the Samaritain Torah, a copy of
                the Syric translation (which I've read was an early Christian
                translation from the Hebrew) (and I don't read Syric.) I do not know
                what I would learn from the Dead Sea Scrolls, nor where to find a
                list of well cited Dead Sea variations, along whith the material I
                needed to judge the meaning of the fragment numbers.

                I would like to know what Origen thought of this (I guess that he
                supported the LXX reading, but it would be nice to know how.)


                Of course all the source material I speak of would be helpful for the
                current location of my study (Genesis 20) as well, as there are some
                textural issues here as well. (forcing me to attempt to translate
                Greek into Hebrew.)

                Michael
              • Schmuel
                Hi lxx, Michael ... Schmuel I had found a few good articles, I believe Arthur Custance of the Doorway Papers did an excellent one on the Genesis chronologies.
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
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                  Hi lxx,

                  Michael
                  >I've not found anything on the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary.
                  >(A nice detailed
                  >article pointing out what the difference is, and how they accumulate
                  >to make for very different dates -- with a table or graph.) I also
                  >made one of my own limited to LXX and MT.

                  Schmuel
                  I had found a few good articles, I believe Arthur Custance of the
                  Doorway Papers did an excellent one on the Genesis chronologies.

                  And Leslie McFall on the textcrit forum may have a paper on this
                  as well, although unpublished :-)

                  Shalom,
                  Schmuel

                  Schmuel@...

                  Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                • Joel Kalvesmaki
                  Dear all, ... I m sorry if this is more tantalizing than informative, but I recall reading a study (was it in the Harvard Theological Review?), from the 80 s,
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
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                    Dear all,

                    > I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not
                    > find it in the Church Father's, (yet) but I've not found anything on
                    > the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary. (A nice detailed

                    I'm sorry if this is more tantalizing than informative, but I recall reading
                    a study (was it in the Harvard Theological Review?), from the 80's, I think,
                    presenting a strong case for how the LXX, the MT, and the Samaritan text's
                    version of the pre-Noahic genealogies depend on each other. Note, all three
                    versions diverge from each other. If I recall correctly, the author
                    suggested that no priority should be ascribed to any single text for an
                    "Ur-genealogy." Each version has reflects a change from the autograph.

                    I've lost this reference in my files, but I know that I passed it on to
                    James Miller a couple of years back. Maybe he still has that reference.

                    Best wishes,

                    jk
                    untitledJoel Kalvesmaki 16kalvesmaki@...
                    http://students.cua.edu/16kalvesmaki/ Graduate Student, Early Christian
                    Studies Catholic University of America Washington, DC
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