Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Hexapla - evidence for the fifth column being the LXX ?

Expand Messages
  • Michael Jay
    If you can find a physical copy of the Nicene and Ante-Nicene Fathers (which are currently in print,) in volume four there is an article introducing the work
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 24, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      If you can find a physical copy of the Nicene and Ante-Nicene Fathers
      (which are currently in print,) in volume four there is an article
      introducing the work of Origen. This little paper speaks of the
      Hexapla text. I am not aware of how they found their source
      material. :-).

      I do not accept that Origen was the creator of the LXX, and that it
      did not exist before he made it (and thus it quotes the New
      Testament), but for absolute proof that the fifth colum of an
      unpublished work which is not extunt is a copy of the seventy, well
      that is asking quite a bit.

      This becomes even more difficult because Origen fell out of favor
      with the Church due to his speculative theology, and anathama's were
      written against several of his views. Because of this we have very
      little (and most of that only in translation) written by a man who
      "wrote more then any one could read." (Jerome in a letter to Rufus.)

      If you find some good information on the Hexapla -- I would be
      interested in knowing about it as well. :)
    • jucci
      Henry Barclay Swete, Introduction to the Old Testament in Greek Edition: 2nd, Cambridge University Press, 1914
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 24, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Henry Barclay Swete, Introduction to the Old Testament in Greek
        Edition: 2nd, Cambridge University Press, 1914
        http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/SweteIntro
        http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/SweteIntro?seq=43
        http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/SweteIntro?seq=73

        GILLES DORIVAL, MARGUERITE HARL, OLIVIER MUNNICH
        LA BIBLE GRECQUE DES SEPTANTE, Du judaïsme hellénistique au christianisme
        ancien
        Éditions du Cerf / Éditions du C.N.R.S. 1994
        http://www.tradere.org/biblio/lxx/frame.htm
        Les «Hexaples» et la recension d'Origène
        http://www.tradere.org/biblio/lxx/harl-04.htm#P2166_345016

        http://www.ccel.org/w/wace/biodict/htm/iii.xv.iv.htm


        ELio Jucci

        SETH - Semitica et Theologica
        http://dobc.unipv.it/SETH/index.htm
        http://lettere.unipv.it/SETH/newlinks.htm#Bibbia%20-%20Versione%20Greca%20dei%20Settanta

        "Ex magno amoris incendio tantus uirtutis decor in animo crescit ..."
        (Richard Rolle, Incendium Amoris)
      • Schmuel
        Shalom lxx, Thanks for the other assistance :-) Hope to follow up more on the Hexapla. ===================================================== Could you help us
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 26, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Shalom lxx,

          Thanks for the other assistance :-)
          Hope to follow up more on the Hexapla.
          =====================================================

          Could you help us with the LXX version of

          Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)
          And speak unto him, saying,
          Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
          Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
          and he shall grow up out of his place,
          and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
          Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
          and he shall bear the glory,
          and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
          **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
          and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

          One friend gave me this...
          estau o iereus ek dexion
          he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
          verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
          take place, live....
          (note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is branch".)

          Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the Branch,
          or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
          where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

          Much appreciated :-)

          Steven Avery,
          Bayside, NY

          PS.. Is there an English LXX, complete Tanach, online ? (interlinear or
          whatever)

          schmuel@...

          Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/



          Schmuel@...

          Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
        • cimosa
          Greetings from Rome! If you wish you can read my contribution on LXX Zechariah: Observation on the Greek Translation of the Book of Zechariah , in B.A.Taylor
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 26, 2002
          • 0 Attachment

            Greetings from Rome!

            If you wish you can read my contribution on LXX Zechariah:
            "Observation on the Greek Translation of the Book of Zechariah", in B.A.Taylor (ed.) IX Conngress of the International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies (Cambridge, 1995), SCS 45, Scholar Press. Atlanta, Georgia.
            Besides, you can find in "Bibleworks for Windows" the English LXX, complete Tanach, online of Brenton.
            Cf. also the web: "Septuagint" of J. D. Kalvesmaki.
            God bless you,

            Mario


            At 01.06 27/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
            Shalom lxx,

            Thanks for the other assistance :-)
            Hope to follow up more on the Hexapla.
            =====================================================

            Could you help us with the LXX version of

            Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)
            And speak unto him, saying,
            Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
            Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
               and he shall grow up out of his place,
               and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
            Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
               and he shall bear the glory,
               and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
               **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
               and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

            One friend gave me this...
            estau o iereus ek dexion
            he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
            verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
            take place, live....
            (note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is branch".)

            Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the Branch,
            or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
            where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

            Much appreciated :-)

            Steven Avery,
            Bayside, NY

            PS.. Is there an English LXX, complete Tanach, online ? (interlinear or
            whatever)

            schmuel@...

            Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/



            Schmuel@...

            Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/


             

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

            Prof. dr. don Mario Cimosa
            Università Pontificia Salesiana
            P.za Ateneo Salesiano, 1
            I - 00139 ROMA
            --------------------------------------------
            Tel. diretto: 06-872.90.459
            Centralino: 06-872.90.1
            Fax comunità: 06-872.90.222
            E-mail: cimosa@...
                        mcimosa@...
            Web: http://giovani.ups.urbe.it/˜cimosa
            Web: www.unisal.urbe.it

          • George Blaisdell
            Be not troubling of you the heart... [From the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 1.] ... What would be wrong with: There shall be a priest from his right
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              "Be not troubling of you the heart..."
              [From the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 1.]




              >From: Steve
              >Could you help us with the LXX version of
              >Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)

              >And speak unto him, saying,
              >Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
              >Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
              > and he shall grow up out of his place,
              > and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
              >Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
              > and he shall bear the glory,
              > and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
              > **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
              > and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
              >
              >One friend gave me this...
              >estau o iereus ek dexion
              >he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
              >verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
              >take place, live....
              >(note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is
              >branch".)
              >
              >Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the
              >Branch,
              >or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
              >where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

              What would be wrong with:
              "There shall be a priest from his right hand."

              Or: "Out of his right hand shall be a priest."

              Branch would seem to be the possessor of the right hand, and the priest the
              other party [other than the branch] of the "both"...

              Just a couple of thoughts...

              geo

              _________________________________________________________________
              Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
              http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
            • Philip Engmann
              Dear Listees, I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT. I know
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
              • 0 Attachment

                Dear Listees,

                I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

                I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any more specific suggestions?

                I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX and MT).

                 



                Do you Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
              • kv.baker1
                Dear Philip, L.C.Allen s work The Greek Chronicles: The Relation of the Septuagint of 1 and 2 Chronicles to the Massoretic Text would provide a very thorough
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Philip,
                  L.C.Allen's work The Greek Chronicles: The Relation of the Septuagint of 1 and 2 Chronicles to the Massoretic Text would provide a very thorough base for the kind of work that you are proposing. It has often occurred to me that his (excellent) study could do with some updating. No one has developed his thesis since 1974, I think (??).
                  Dr Ken Baker
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 10:04 PM
                  Subject: [lxx] LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

                  Dear Listees,

                  I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

                  I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any more specific suggestions?

                  I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX and MT).

                   



                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                • Michael Jay
                  This is interesting to me also... My language as a student was Greek -- and I ve started comparing the LXX to the MT in order to learn Hebrew (I ve now made a
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    This is interesting to me also... My language as a student was
                    Greek -- and I've started comparing the LXX to the MT in order to
                    learn Hebrew (I've now made a translation of almost half of Genesis,
                    with notes on differences and questions of whether the differences
                    were real, or a standard idiom of translation. (such as Enoch
                    pleased God (greek) and Enoch walked with God (hebrew.) I also
                    thought this would be a potential area of Ph.D. work; unfortunately
                    I'm still deep in language study and I've no solid proposal yet.

                    The most remarkable difference that I've found so far is the
                    difference in the years of life and of the birth children in the
                    lists -- both from Adam to Noe/ Noach, and from Noe to Abram. I
                    understand the the Samaritian text is different from both. If the
                    source materials could be found, this would be an interesting project.

                    I think it would be interesting to identify which areas, where the
                    translation to English would be different represent a different
                    textform, and which ones represent the translation of a standard
                    idiom (such as <name> walked with God all his days (hebrew) and
                    <Name> pleased God all his days... (Or even the use of the dual
                    Shamayim (heavens) while the Greek uses the singular Uranus. (heaven)

                    Michael Jay



                    >
                    > I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation
                    into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.
                    >
                    > I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any
                    more specific suggestions?
                    >
                    > I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF
                    SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX
                    and MT).
                  • Schmuel
                    Shalom LXX Michael Jay ... This is discussed on a number of papers, fairly well represented on the Web.. Now I think the Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance was
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Shalom LXX

                      Michael Jay
                      >The most remarkable difference that I've found so far is the
                      >difference in the years of life and of the birth children in the
                      >lists -- both from Adam to Noe/ Noach, and from Noe to Abram. I
                      >understand the the Samaritian text is different from both. If the
                      >source materials could be found, this would be an interesting project.

                      This is discussed on a number of papers, fairly well represented on the Web..

                      Now I think the Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance was one of the ones
                      that I liked the most... many are on the Web, so it shouldn't be too hard
                      to find...... I could check around for some of the other better
                      discussions, too

                      Shalom,
                      Steven Avery
                      Bayside, NY


                      Schmuel@...

                      Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                    • Michael Jay <jaymichael@hotmail.com>
                      I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not find it in the Church Father s, (yet) but I ve not found anything on the web I couldn t
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not
                        find it in the Church Father's, (yet) but I've not found anything on
                        the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary. (A nice detailed
                        article pointing out what the difference is, and how they accumulate
                        to make for very different dates -- with a table or graph.) I also
                        made one of my own limited to LXX and MT.

                        By source material, I mean the things I would need to use to prepare
                        an ecclectic text, and to argue which reading was most authritative.
                        I only have the MT (both electronic and in print), two different
                        electronic LXX textforms, Brenton's LXX in print, and the Vulgate.

                        I do not know where to find a copy of the Samaritain Torah, a copy of
                        the Syric translation (which I've read was an early Christian
                        translation from the Hebrew) (and I don't read Syric.) I do not know
                        what I would learn from the Dead Sea Scrolls, nor where to find a
                        list of well cited Dead Sea variations, along whith the material I
                        needed to judge the meaning of the fragment numbers.

                        I would like to know what Origen thought of this (I guess that he
                        supported the LXX reading, but it would be nice to know how.)


                        Of course all the source material I speak of would be helpful for the
                        current location of my study (Genesis 20) as well, as there are some
                        textural issues here as well. (forcing me to attempt to translate
                        Greek into Hebrew.)

                        Michael
                      • Schmuel
                        Hi lxx, Michael ... Schmuel I had found a few good articles, I believe Arthur Custance of the Doorway Papers did an excellent one on the Genesis chronologies.
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi lxx,

                          Michael
                          >I've not found anything on the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary.
                          >(A nice detailed
                          >article pointing out what the difference is, and how they accumulate
                          >to make for very different dates -- with a table or graph.) I also
                          >made one of my own limited to LXX and MT.

                          Schmuel
                          I had found a few good articles, I believe Arthur Custance of the
                          Doorway Papers did an excellent one on the Genesis chronologies.

                          And Leslie McFall on the textcrit forum may have a paper on this
                          as well, although unpublished :-)

                          Shalom,
                          Schmuel

                          Schmuel@...

                          Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                        • Joel Kalvesmaki
                          Dear all, ... I m sorry if this is more tantalizing than informative, but I recall reading a study (was it in the Harvard Theological Review?), from the 80 s,
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear all,

                            > I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not
                            > find it in the Church Father's, (yet) but I've not found anything on
                            > the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary. (A nice detailed

                            I'm sorry if this is more tantalizing than informative, but I recall reading
                            a study (was it in the Harvard Theological Review?), from the 80's, I think,
                            presenting a strong case for how the LXX, the MT, and the Samaritan text's
                            version of the pre-Noahic genealogies depend on each other. Note, all three
                            versions diverge from each other. If I recall correctly, the author
                            suggested that no priority should be ascribed to any single text for an
                            "Ur-genealogy." Each version has reflects a change from the autograph.

                            I've lost this reference in my files, but I know that I passed it on to
                            James Miller a couple of years back. Maybe he still has that reference.

                            Best wishes,

                            jk
                            untitledJoel Kalvesmaki 16kalvesmaki@...
                            http://students.cua.edu/16kalvesmaki/ Graduate Student, Early Christian
                            Studies Catholic University of America Washington, DC
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.