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[lxx] Hexapla - evidence for the fifth column being the LXX ?

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  • Schmuel
    Shalom LXX, Very helpful, Michael, thanks, I was just re-thinking and researching about this Hexapla fifth-column issue today :-)
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 23, 2002
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      Shalom LXX,

      Very helpful, Michael, thanks, I was just re-thinking and researching
      about this Hexapla fifth-column issue today :-)

      http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-04/anf04-50.htm#P7533_1720613
      A Letter to Origen from Africanus About the History of Susanna.
      http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-04/anf04-51.htm
      A Letter from Origen to Africanus.

      The letters show that Origen talks of the LXX, I didn't see
      him say anything about the fifth column being the LXX..
      (although it may be stated somewhere else clearly,
      or a reasonable conclusion)

      Africanus makes some good points, especially the rhyming words,
      and your points on the usage of Elohim, etc are interesting..

      Hopefully, more follow-up shortly

      Shalom,
      Steven Avery
      Bayside, NY

      Schmuel
      > > ===============================================
      > > What is the earliest citation of this fifth column as the LXX,
      > > Did Origen actually name the column ?
      > > Is it called the LXX by textual analysis, or by Early Church Writer
      > > citation, or some combination ?
      > > ==============================================

      Michael Jay
      >The bishop Africanas <sp?> wrote a letter to Origen concerning
      >the "History of Susanna," questioning the fact that it was unknown in
      >the Hebrew, and suggesting that it was not genuine -- Origen of
      >course wrote back, defending this passage as being a genuine part of
      >Daniel :-). (even though his textural markings marked it has having
      >no equivilant in the current Hebrew scriptures.) These letters
      >between Africanas and Origen are the earliest comments I'm aware of
      >that speak of Orgin's work.
      >
      >Several of the church fathers speak of the OT being marked symbols
      >showing either sections in the old seventy however not in the Hebrew,
      >and also sections in the Hebrew which though not in the LXX is added
      >to the text (sort of like a footnote saying the Hebrew adds...) This
      >revision is attributed to Origen, however it is a sign of textural
      >analysis, not of translation.
      >
      >It is difficult for me to believe that Origen is responsible for the
      >translation of the LXX because #1: parts of Daniel, of Job, and of
      >Esther did not have a known Hebrew original at the time of Origen.
      >#2: The translation style is different in different locations, for
      >example, in Genesis the holy name YHWH is Kurios (Lord), in Exodus it
      >is rendered On (translated being.) I would imagine that Origen would
      >be consistant with the divine name. Also, in Genesis Elohim is often
      >rendered Theos, but is sometimes rendered Kurios or Kurios Theos.
      >
      >The LXX lacks the consistancy necessary to be the work of a single
      >man. Perhaps Origen's editing hand has confounded our present texts
      >(explaining the textural differences between manuscripts.) Origen
      >marked the parts of the text which were not in Hebrew -- and gave a
      >greek rendering (likely borrowed from another text) of Hebrew not in
      >the LXX. If Origen translated the work from Hebrew himself, this
      >would have been unnecessary.

      Schmuel@...

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    • Michael Jay
      If you can find a physical copy of the Nicene and Ante-Nicene Fathers (which are currently in print,) in volume four there is an article introducing the work
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 24, 2002
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        If you can find a physical copy of the Nicene and Ante-Nicene Fathers
        (which are currently in print,) in volume four there is an article
        introducing the work of Origen. This little paper speaks of the
        Hexapla text. I am not aware of how they found their source
        material. :-).

        I do not accept that Origen was the creator of the LXX, and that it
        did not exist before he made it (and thus it quotes the New
        Testament), but for absolute proof that the fifth colum of an
        unpublished work which is not extunt is a copy of the seventy, well
        that is asking quite a bit.

        This becomes even more difficult because Origen fell out of favor
        with the Church due to his speculative theology, and anathama's were
        written against several of his views. Because of this we have very
        little (and most of that only in translation) written by a man who
        "wrote more then any one could read." (Jerome in a letter to Rufus.)

        If you find some good information on the Hexapla -- I would be
        interested in knowing about it as well. :)
      • jucci
        Henry Barclay Swete, Introduction to the Old Testament in Greek Edition: 2nd, Cambridge University Press, 1914
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 24, 2002
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          Henry Barclay Swete, Introduction to the Old Testament in Greek
          Edition: 2nd, Cambridge University Press, 1914
          http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/SweteIntro
          http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/SweteIntro?seq=43
          http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/SweteIntro?seq=73

          GILLES DORIVAL, MARGUERITE HARL, OLIVIER MUNNICH
          LA BIBLE GRECQUE DES SEPTANTE, Du judaïsme hellénistique au christianisme
          ancien
          Éditions du Cerf / Éditions du C.N.R.S. 1994
          http://www.tradere.org/biblio/lxx/frame.htm
          Les «Hexaples» et la recension d'Origène
          http://www.tradere.org/biblio/lxx/harl-04.htm#P2166_345016

          http://www.ccel.org/w/wace/biodict/htm/iii.xv.iv.htm


          ELio Jucci

          SETH - Semitica et Theologica
          http://dobc.unipv.it/SETH/index.htm
          http://lettere.unipv.it/SETH/newlinks.htm#Bibbia%20-%20Versione%20Greca%20dei%20Settanta

          "Ex magno amoris incendio tantus uirtutis decor in animo crescit ..."
          (Richard Rolle, Incendium Amoris)
        • Schmuel
          Shalom lxx, Thanks for the other assistance :-) Hope to follow up more on the Hexapla. ===================================================== Could you help us
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 26, 2002
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            Shalom lxx,

            Thanks for the other assistance :-)
            Hope to follow up more on the Hexapla.
            =====================================================

            Could you help us with the LXX version of

            Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)
            And speak unto him, saying,
            Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
            Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
            and he shall grow up out of his place,
            and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
            Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
            and he shall bear the glory,
            and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
            **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
            and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

            One friend gave me this...
            estau o iereus ek dexion
            he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
            verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
            take place, live....
            (note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is branch".)

            Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the Branch,
            or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
            where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

            Much appreciated :-)

            Steven Avery,
            Bayside, NY

            PS.. Is there an English LXX, complete Tanach, online ? (interlinear or
            whatever)

            schmuel@...

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            Schmuel@...

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          • cimosa
            Greetings from Rome! If you wish you can read my contribution on LXX Zechariah: Observation on the Greek Translation of the Book of Zechariah , in B.A.Taylor
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 26, 2002
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              Greetings from Rome!

              If you wish you can read my contribution on LXX Zechariah:
              "Observation on the Greek Translation of the Book of Zechariah", in B.A.Taylor (ed.) IX Conngress of the International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies (Cambridge, 1995), SCS 45, Scholar Press. Atlanta, Georgia.
              Besides, you can find in "Bibleworks for Windows" the English LXX, complete Tanach, online of Brenton.
              Cf. also the web: "Septuagint" of J. D. Kalvesmaki.
              God bless you,

              Mario


              At 01.06 27/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
              Shalom lxx,

              Thanks for the other assistance :-)
              Hope to follow up more on the Hexapla.
              =====================================================

              Could you help us with the LXX version of

              Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)
              And speak unto him, saying,
              Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
              Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
                 and he shall grow up out of his place,
                 and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
              Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
                 and he shall bear the glory,
                 and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
                 **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
                 and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

              One friend gave me this...
              estau o iereus ek dexion
              he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
              verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
              take place, live....
              (note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is branch".)

              Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the Branch,
              or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
              where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

              Much appreciated :-)

              Steven Avery,
              Bayside, NY

              PS.. Is there an English LXX, complete Tanach, online ? (interlinear or
              whatever)

              schmuel@...

              Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/



              Schmuel@...

              Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/


               

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              Prof. dr. don Mario Cimosa
              Università Pontificia Salesiana
              P.za Ateneo Salesiano, 1
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            • George Blaisdell
              Be not troubling of you the heart... [From the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 1.] ... What would be wrong with: There shall be a priest from his right
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                "Be not troubling of you the heart..."
                [From the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 1.]




                >From: Steve
                >Could you help us with the LXX version of
                >Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)

                >And speak unto him, saying,
                >Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
                >Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
                > and he shall grow up out of his place,
                > and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
                >Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
                > and he shall bear the glory,
                > and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
                > **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
                > and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
                >
                >One friend gave me this...
                >estau o iereus ek dexion
                >he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
                >verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
                >take place, live....
                >(note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is
                >branch".)
                >
                >Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the
                >Branch,
                >or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
                >where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

                What would be wrong with:
                "There shall be a priest from his right hand."

                Or: "Out of his right hand shall be a priest."

                Branch would seem to be the possessor of the right hand, and the priest the
                other party [other than the branch] of the "both"...

                Just a couple of thoughts...

                geo

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              • Philip Engmann
                Dear Listees, I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT. I know
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
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                  Dear Listees,

                  I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

                  I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any more specific suggestions?

                  I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX and MT).

                   



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                • kv.baker1
                  Dear Philip, L.C.Allen s work The Greek Chronicles: The Relation of the Septuagint of 1 and 2 Chronicles to the Massoretic Text would provide a very thorough
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
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                    Dear Philip,
                    L.C.Allen's work The Greek Chronicles: The Relation of the Septuagint of 1 and 2 Chronicles to the Massoretic Text would provide a very thorough base for the kind of work that you are proposing. It has often occurred to me that his (excellent) study could do with some updating. No one has developed his thesis since 1974, I think (??).
                    Dr Ken Baker
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 10:04 PM
                    Subject: [lxx] LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

                    Dear Listees,

                    I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

                    I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any more specific suggestions?

                    I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX and MT).

                     



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                  • Michael Jay
                    This is interesting to me also... My language as a student was Greek -- and I ve started comparing the LXX to the MT in order to learn Hebrew (I ve now made a
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2002
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                      This is interesting to me also... My language as a student was
                      Greek -- and I've started comparing the LXX to the MT in order to
                      learn Hebrew (I've now made a translation of almost half of Genesis,
                      with notes on differences and questions of whether the differences
                      were real, or a standard idiom of translation. (such as Enoch
                      pleased God (greek) and Enoch walked with God (hebrew.) I also
                      thought this would be a potential area of Ph.D. work; unfortunately
                      I'm still deep in language study and I've no solid proposal yet.

                      The most remarkable difference that I've found so far is the
                      difference in the years of life and of the birth children in the
                      lists -- both from Adam to Noe/ Noach, and from Noe to Abram. I
                      understand the the Samaritian text is different from both. If the
                      source materials could be found, this would be an interesting project.

                      I think it would be interesting to identify which areas, where the
                      translation to English would be different represent a different
                      textform, and which ones represent the translation of a standard
                      idiom (such as <name> walked with God all his days (hebrew) and
                      <Name> pleased God all his days... (Or even the use of the dual
                      Shamayim (heavens) while the Greek uses the singular Uranus. (heaven)

                      Michael Jay



                      >
                      > I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation
                      into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.
                      >
                      > I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any
                      more specific suggestions?
                      >
                      > I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF
                      SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX
                      and MT).
                    • Schmuel
                      Shalom LXX Michael Jay ... This is discussed on a number of papers, fairly well represented on the Web.. Now I think the Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance was
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2002
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                        Shalom LXX

                        Michael Jay
                        >The most remarkable difference that I've found so far is the
                        >difference in the years of life and of the birth children in the
                        >lists -- both from Adam to Noe/ Noach, and from Noe to Abram. I
                        >understand the the Samaritian text is different from both. If the
                        >source materials could be found, this would be an interesting project.

                        This is discussed on a number of papers, fairly well represented on the Web..

                        Now I think the Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance was one of the ones
                        that I liked the most... many are on the Web, so it shouldn't be too hard
                        to find...... I could check around for some of the other better
                        discussions, too

                        Shalom,
                        Steven Avery
                        Bayside, NY


                        Schmuel@...

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                      • Michael Jay <jaymichael@hotmail.com>
                        I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not find it in the Church Father s, (yet) but I ve not found anything on the web I couldn t
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
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                          I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not
                          find it in the Church Father's, (yet) but I've not found anything on
                          the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary. (A nice detailed
                          article pointing out what the difference is, and how they accumulate
                          to make for very different dates -- with a table or graph.) I also
                          made one of my own limited to LXX and MT.

                          By source material, I mean the things I would need to use to prepare
                          an ecclectic text, and to argue which reading was most authritative.
                          I only have the MT (both electronic and in print), two different
                          electronic LXX textforms, Brenton's LXX in print, and the Vulgate.

                          I do not know where to find a copy of the Samaritain Torah, a copy of
                          the Syric translation (which I've read was an early Christian
                          translation from the Hebrew) (and I don't read Syric.) I do not know
                          what I would learn from the Dead Sea Scrolls, nor where to find a
                          list of well cited Dead Sea variations, along whith the material I
                          needed to judge the meaning of the fragment numbers.

                          I would like to know what Origen thought of this (I guess that he
                          supported the LXX reading, but it would be nice to know how.)


                          Of course all the source material I speak of would be helpful for the
                          current location of my study (Genesis 20) as well, as there are some
                          textural issues here as well. (forcing me to attempt to translate
                          Greek into Hebrew.)

                          Michael
                        • Schmuel
                          Hi lxx, Michael ... Schmuel I had found a few good articles, I believe Arthur Custance of the Doorway Papers did an excellent one on the Genesis chronologies.
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
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                            Hi lxx,

                            Michael
                            >I've not found anything on the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary.
                            >(A nice detailed
                            >article pointing out what the difference is, and how they accumulate
                            >to make for very different dates -- with a table or graph.) I also
                            >made one of my own limited to LXX and MT.

                            Schmuel
                            I had found a few good articles, I believe Arthur Custance of the
                            Doorway Papers did an excellent one on the Genesis chronologies.

                            And Leslie McFall on the textcrit forum may have a paper on this
                            as well, although unpublished :-)

                            Shalom,
                            Schmuel

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                          • Joel Kalvesmaki
                            Dear all, ... I m sorry if this is more tantalizing than informative, but I recall reading a study (was it in the Harvard Theological Review?), from the 80 s,
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
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                              Dear all,

                              > I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not
                              > find it in the Church Father's, (yet) but I've not found anything on
                              > the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary. (A nice detailed

                              I'm sorry if this is more tantalizing than informative, but I recall reading
                              a study (was it in the Harvard Theological Review?), from the 80's, I think,
                              presenting a strong case for how the LXX, the MT, and the Samaritan text's
                              version of the pre-Noahic genealogies depend on each other. Note, all three
                              versions diverge from each other. If I recall correctly, the author
                              suggested that no priority should be ascribed to any single text for an
                              "Ur-genealogy." Each version has reflects a change from the autograph.

                              I've lost this reference in my files, but I know that I passed it on to
                              James Miller a couple of years back. Maybe he still has that reference.

                              Best wishes,

                              jk
                              untitledJoel Kalvesmaki 16kalvesmaki@...
                              http://students.cua.edu/16kalvesmaki/ Graduate Student, Early Christian
                              Studies Catholic University of America Washington, DC
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