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Re: Hexapla - evidence for the fifth column being the LXX ?

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  • Michael Jay
    ... The bishop Africanas wrote a letter to Origen concerning the History of Susanna, questioning the fact that it was unknown in the Hebrew, and
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 23, 2002
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      > ===============================================
      > What is the earliest citation of this fifth column as the LXX,
      > Did Origen actually name the column ?
      > Is it called the LXX by textual analysis, or by Early Church Writer
      > citation, or some combination ?
      > ==============================================

      The bishop Africanas <sp?> wrote a letter to Origen concerning
      the "History of Susanna," questioning the fact that it was unknown in
      the Hebrew, and suggesting that it was not genuine -- Origen of
      course wrote back, defending this passage as being a genuine part of
      Daniel :-). (even though his textural markings marked it has having
      no equivilant in the current Hebrew scriptures.) These letters
      between Africanas and Origen are the earliest comments I'm aware of
      that speak of Orgin's work.

      Several of the church fathers speak of the OT being marked symbols
      showing either sections in the old seventy however not in the Hebrew,
      and also sections in the Hebrew which though not in the LXX is added
      to the text (sort of like a footnote saying the Hebrew adds...) This
      revision is attributed to Origen, however it is a sign of textural
      analysis, not of translation.

      It is difficult for me to believe that Origen is responsible for the
      translation of the LXX because #1: parts of Daniel, of Job, and of
      Esther did not have a known Hebrew original at the time of Origen.
      #2: The translation style is different in different locations, for
      example, in Genesis the holy name YHWH is Kurios (Lord), in Exodus it
      is rendered On (translated being.) I would imagine that Origen would
      be consistant with the divine name. Also, in Genesis Elohim is often
      rendered Theos, but is sometimes rendered Kurios or Kurios Theos.


      The LXX lacks the consistancy necessary to be the work of a single
      man. Perhaps Origen's editing hand has confounded our present texts
      (explaining the textural differences between manuscripts.) Origen
      marked the parts of the text which were not in Hebrew -- and gave a
      greek rendering (likely borrowed from another text) of Hebrew not in
      the LXX. If Origen translated the work from Hebrew himself, this
      would have been unnecessary.

      Michael Jay
    • Schmuel
      Shalom LXX, Very helpful, Michael, thanks, I was just re-thinking and researching about this Hexapla fifth-column issue today :-)
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 23, 2002
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        Shalom LXX,

        Very helpful, Michael, thanks, I was just re-thinking and researching
        about this Hexapla fifth-column issue today :-)

        http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-04/anf04-50.htm#P7533_1720613
        A Letter to Origen from Africanus About the History of Susanna.
        http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-04/anf04-51.htm
        A Letter from Origen to Africanus.

        The letters show that Origen talks of the LXX, I didn't see
        him say anything about the fifth column being the LXX..
        (although it may be stated somewhere else clearly,
        or a reasonable conclusion)

        Africanus makes some good points, especially the rhyming words,
        and your points on the usage of Elohim, etc are interesting..

        Hopefully, more follow-up shortly

        Shalom,
        Steven Avery
        Bayside, NY

        Schmuel
        > > ===============================================
        > > What is the earliest citation of this fifth column as the LXX,
        > > Did Origen actually name the column ?
        > > Is it called the LXX by textual analysis, or by Early Church Writer
        > > citation, or some combination ?
        > > ==============================================

        Michael Jay
        >The bishop Africanas <sp?> wrote a letter to Origen concerning
        >the "History of Susanna," questioning the fact that it was unknown in
        >the Hebrew, and suggesting that it was not genuine -- Origen of
        >course wrote back, defending this passage as being a genuine part of
        >Daniel :-). (even though his textural markings marked it has having
        >no equivilant in the current Hebrew scriptures.) These letters
        >between Africanas and Origen are the earliest comments I'm aware of
        >that speak of Orgin's work.
        >
        >Several of the church fathers speak of the OT being marked symbols
        >showing either sections in the old seventy however not in the Hebrew,
        >and also sections in the Hebrew which though not in the LXX is added
        >to the text (sort of like a footnote saying the Hebrew adds...) This
        >revision is attributed to Origen, however it is a sign of textural
        >analysis, not of translation.
        >
        >It is difficult for me to believe that Origen is responsible for the
        >translation of the LXX because #1: parts of Daniel, of Job, and of
        >Esther did not have a known Hebrew original at the time of Origen.
        >#2: The translation style is different in different locations, for
        >example, in Genesis the holy name YHWH is Kurios (Lord), in Exodus it
        >is rendered On (translated being.) I would imagine that Origen would
        >be consistant with the divine name. Also, in Genesis Elohim is often
        >rendered Theos, but is sometimes rendered Kurios or Kurios Theos.
        >
        >The LXX lacks the consistancy necessary to be the work of a single
        >man. Perhaps Origen's editing hand has confounded our present texts
        >(explaining the textural differences between manuscripts.) Origen
        >marked the parts of the text which were not in Hebrew -- and gave a
        >greek rendering (likely borrowed from another text) of Hebrew not in
        >the LXX. If Origen translated the work from Hebrew himself, this
        >would have been unnecessary.

        Schmuel@...

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      • Michael Jay
        If you can find a physical copy of the Nicene and Ante-Nicene Fathers (which are currently in print,) in volume four there is an article introducing the work
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 24, 2002
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          If you can find a physical copy of the Nicene and Ante-Nicene Fathers
          (which are currently in print,) in volume four there is an article
          introducing the work of Origen. This little paper speaks of the
          Hexapla text. I am not aware of how they found their source
          material. :-).

          I do not accept that Origen was the creator of the LXX, and that it
          did not exist before he made it (and thus it quotes the New
          Testament), but for absolute proof that the fifth colum of an
          unpublished work which is not extunt is a copy of the seventy, well
          that is asking quite a bit.

          This becomes even more difficult because Origen fell out of favor
          with the Church due to his speculative theology, and anathama's were
          written against several of his views. Because of this we have very
          little (and most of that only in translation) written by a man who
          "wrote more then any one could read." (Jerome in a letter to Rufus.)

          If you find some good information on the Hexapla -- I would be
          interested in knowing about it as well. :)
        • jucci
          Henry Barclay Swete, Introduction to the Old Testament in Greek Edition: 2nd, Cambridge University Press, 1914
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 24, 2002
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            Henry Barclay Swete, Introduction to the Old Testament in Greek
            Edition: 2nd, Cambridge University Press, 1914
            http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/SweteIntro
            http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/SweteIntro?seq=43
            http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/SweteIntro?seq=73

            GILLES DORIVAL, MARGUERITE HARL, OLIVIER MUNNICH
            LA BIBLE GRECQUE DES SEPTANTE, Du judaïsme hellénistique au christianisme
            ancien
            Éditions du Cerf / Éditions du C.N.R.S. 1994
            http://www.tradere.org/biblio/lxx/frame.htm
            Les «Hexaples» et la recension d'Origène
            http://www.tradere.org/biblio/lxx/harl-04.htm#P2166_345016

            http://www.ccel.org/w/wace/biodict/htm/iii.xv.iv.htm


            ELio Jucci

            SETH - Semitica et Theologica
            http://dobc.unipv.it/SETH/index.htm
            http://lettere.unipv.it/SETH/newlinks.htm#Bibbia%20-%20Versione%20Greca%20dei%20Settanta

            "Ex magno amoris incendio tantus uirtutis decor in animo crescit ..."
            (Richard Rolle, Incendium Amoris)
          • Schmuel
            Shalom lxx, Thanks for the other assistance :-) Hope to follow up more on the Hexapla. ===================================================== Could you help us
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 26, 2002
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              Shalom lxx,

              Thanks for the other assistance :-)
              Hope to follow up more on the Hexapla.
              =====================================================

              Could you help us with the LXX version of

              Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)
              And speak unto him, saying,
              Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
              Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
              and he shall grow up out of his place,
              and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
              Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
              and he shall bear the glory,
              and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
              **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
              and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

              One friend gave me this...
              estau o iereus ek dexion
              he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
              verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
              take place, live....
              (note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is branch".)

              Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the Branch,
              or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
              where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

              Much appreciated :-)

              Steven Avery,
              Bayside, NY

              PS.. Is there an English LXX, complete Tanach, online ? (interlinear or
              whatever)

              schmuel@...

              Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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              Schmuel@...

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            • cimosa
              Greetings from Rome! If you wish you can read my contribution on LXX Zechariah: Observation on the Greek Translation of the Book of Zechariah , in B.A.Taylor
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 26, 2002
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                Greetings from Rome!

                If you wish you can read my contribution on LXX Zechariah:
                "Observation on the Greek Translation of the Book of Zechariah", in B.A.Taylor (ed.) IX Conngress of the International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies (Cambridge, 1995), SCS 45, Scholar Press. Atlanta, Georgia.
                Besides, you can find in "Bibleworks for Windows" the English LXX, complete Tanach, online of Brenton.
                Cf. also the web: "Septuagint" of J. D. Kalvesmaki.
                God bless you,

                Mario


                At 01.06 27/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
                Shalom lxx,

                Thanks for the other assistance :-)
                Hope to follow up more on the Hexapla.
                =====================================================

                Could you help us with the LXX version of

                Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)
                And speak unto him, saying,
                Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
                Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
                   and he shall grow up out of his place,
                   and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
                Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
                   and he shall bear the glory,
                   and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
                   **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
                   and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

                One friend gave me this...
                estau o iereus ek dexion
                he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
                verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
                take place, live....
                (note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is branch".)

                Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the Branch,
                or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
                where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

                Much appreciated :-)

                Steven Avery,
                Bayside, NY

                PS.. Is there an English LXX, complete Tanach, online ? (interlinear or
                whatever)

                schmuel@...

                Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/



                Schmuel@...

                Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/


                 

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                Prof. dr. don Mario Cimosa
                Università Pontificia Salesiana
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              • George Blaisdell
                Be not troubling of you the heart... [From the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 1.] ... What would be wrong with: There shall be a priest from his right
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                  "Be not troubling of you the heart..."
                  [From the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 1.]




                  >From: Steve
                  >Could you help us with the LXX version of
                  >Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJB)

                  >And speak unto him, saying,
                  >Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
                  >Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
                  > and he shall grow up out of his place,
                  > and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
                  >Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
                  > and he shall bear the glory,
                  > and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
                  > **and he shall be a priest upon his throne: **
                  > and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
                  >
                  >One friend gave me this...
                  >estau o iereus ek dexion
                  >he will be priest at his right hand - Rahlf's
                  >verb estau-fut mid ind 3rd per sing, from eimi.......be, exist; happen,
                  >take place, live....
                  >(note: It would appear that the "he" has to be "the man whose name is
                  >branch".)
                  >
                  >Would you have the LXX pronoun as "he" and is "he will be priest" the
                  >Branch,
                  >or is it another, or simply ambiguous, as in the Hebrew grammar,
                  >where people translate more by context or doctrine or feel....

                  What would be wrong with:
                  "There shall be a priest from his right hand."

                  Or: "Out of his right hand shall be a priest."

                  Branch would seem to be the possessor of the right hand, and the priest the
                  other party [other than the branch] of the "both"...

                  Just a couple of thoughts...

                  geo

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                • Philip Engmann
                  Dear Listees, I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT. I know
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
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                    Dear Listees,

                    I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

                    I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any more specific suggestions?

                    I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX and MT).

                     



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                  • kv.baker1
                    Dear Philip, L.C.Allen s work The Greek Chronicles: The Relation of the Septuagint of 1 and 2 Chronicles to the Massoretic Text would provide a very thorough
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
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                      Dear Philip,
                      L.C.Allen's work The Greek Chronicles: The Relation of the Septuagint of 1 and 2 Chronicles to the Massoretic Text would provide a very thorough base for the kind of work that you are proposing. It has often occurred to me that his (excellent) study could do with some updating. No one has developed his thesis since 1974, I think (??).
                      Dr Ken Baker
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 10:04 PM
                      Subject: [lxx] LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

                      Dear Listees,

                      I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.

                      I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any more specific suggestions?

                      I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX and MT).

                       



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                    • Michael Jay
                      This is interesting to me also... My language as a student was Greek -- and I ve started comparing the LXX to the MT in order to learn Hebrew (I ve now made a
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2002
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                        This is interesting to me also... My language as a student was
                        Greek -- and I've started comparing the LXX to the MT in order to
                        learn Hebrew (I've now made a translation of almost half of Genesis,
                        with notes on differences and questions of whether the differences
                        were real, or a standard idiom of translation. (such as Enoch
                        pleased God (greek) and Enoch walked with God (hebrew.) I also
                        thought this would be a potential area of Ph.D. work; unfortunately
                        I'm still deep in language study and I've no solid proposal yet.

                        The most remarkable difference that I've found so far is the
                        difference in the years of life and of the birth children in the
                        lists -- both from Adam to Noe/ Noach, and from Noe to Abram. I
                        understand the the Samaritian text is different from both. If the
                        source materials could be found, this would be an interesting project.

                        I think it would be interesting to identify which areas, where the
                        translation to English would be different represent a different
                        textform, and which ones represent the translation of a standard
                        idiom (such as <name> walked with God all his days (hebrew) and
                        <Name> pleased God all his days... (Or even the use of the dual
                        Shamayim (heavens) while the Greek uses the singular Uranus. (heaven)

                        Michael Jay



                        >
                        > I wish to do a PhD in LXX translation techniques or investigation
                        into differences between the LXX and MT or proto-LXX and proto-MT.
                        >
                        > I know generally which area I wish to do it in, but are there any
                        more specific suggestions?
                        >
                        > I am at the tail end of my MPhil Thesis which was a COMPARISON OF
                        SELECTED LXX and MT VERSES where there were differences (between LXX
                        and MT).
                      • Schmuel
                        Shalom LXX Michael Jay ... This is discussed on a number of papers, fairly well represented on the Web.. Now I think the Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance was
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2, 2002
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                          Shalom LXX

                          Michael Jay
                          >The most remarkable difference that I've found so far is the
                          >difference in the years of life and of the birth children in the
                          >lists -- both from Adam to Noe/ Noach, and from Noe to Abram. I
                          >understand the the Samaritian text is different from both. If the
                          >source materials could be found, this would be an interesting project.

                          This is discussed on a number of papers, fairly well represented on the Web..

                          Now I think the Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance was one of the ones
                          that I liked the most... many are on the Web, so it shouldn't be too hard
                          to find...... I could check around for some of the other better
                          discussions, too

                          Shalom,
                          Steven Avery
                          Bayside, NY


                          Schmuel@...

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                        • Michael Jay <jaymichael@hotmail.com>
                          I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not find it in the Church Father s, (yet) but I ve not found anything on the web I couldn t
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
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                            I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not
                            find it in the Church Father's, (yet) but I've not found anything on
                            the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary. (A nice detailed
                            article pointing out what the difference is, and how they accumulate
                            to make for very different dates -- with a table or graph.) I also
                            made one of my own limited to LXX and MT.

                            By source material, I mean the things I would need to use to prepare
                            an ecclectic text, and to argue which reading was most authritative.
                            I only have the MT (both electronic and in print), two different
                            electronic LXX textforms, Brenton's LXX in print, and the Vulgate.

                            I do not know where to find a copy of the Samaritain Torah, a copy of
                            the Syric translation (which I've read was an early Christian
                            translation from the Hebrew) (and I don't read Syric.) I do not know
                            what I would learn from the Dead Sea Scrolls, nor where to find a
                            list of well cited Dead Sea variations, along whith the material I
                            needed to judge the meaning of the fragment numbers.

                            I would like to know what Origen thought of this (I guess that he
                            supported the LXX reading, but it would be nice to know how.)


                            Of course all the source material I speak of would be helpful for the
                            current location of my study (Genesis 20) as well, as there are some
                            textural issues here as well. (forcing me to attempt to translate
                            Greek into Hebrew.)

                            Michael
                          • Schmuel
                            Hi lxx, Michael ... Schmuel I had found a few good articles, I believe Arthur Custance of the Doorway Papers did an excellent one on the Genesis chronologies.
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
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                              Hi lxx,

                              Michael
                              >I've not found anything on the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary.
                              >(A nice detailed
                              >article pointing out what the difference is, and how they accumulate
                              >to make for very different dates -- with a table or graph.) I also
                              >made one of my own limited to LXX and MT.

                              Schmuel
                              I had found a few good articles, I believe Arthur Custance of the
                              Doorway Papers did an excellent one on the Genesis chronologies.

                              And Leslie McFall on the textcrit forum may have a paper on this
                              as well, although unpublished :-)

                              Shalom,
                              Schmuel

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                            • Joel Kalvesmaki
                              Dear all, ... I m sorry if this is more tantalizing than informative, but I recall reading a study (was it in the Harvard Theological Review?), from the 80 s,
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 12, 2002
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                                Dear all,

                                > I had read comments on this back a couple hundred years -- I did not
                                > find it in the Church Father's, (yet) but I've not found anything on
                                > the web I couldn't find in Clarke's commentary. (A nice detailed

                                I'm sorry if this is more tantalizing than informative, but I recall reading
                                a study (was it in the Harvard Theological Review?), from the 80's, I think,
                                presenting a strong case for how the LXX, the MT, and the Samaritan text's
                                version of the pre-Noahic genealogies depend on each other. Note, all three
                                versions diverge from each other. If I recall correctly, the author
                                suggested that no priority should be ascribed to any single text for an
                                "Ur-genealogy." Each version has reflects a change from the autograph.

                                I've lost this reference in my files, but I know that I passed it on to
                                James Miller a couple of years back. Maybe he still has that reference.

                                Best wishes,

                                jk
                                untitledJoel Kalvesmaki 16kalvesmaki@...
                                http://students.cua.edu/16kalvesmaki/ Graduate Student, Early Christian
                                Studies Catholic University of America Washington, DC
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