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Ancient Of Days

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  • rhoadess
    Dear LXX Scholars I was wondering how one can understand the title Ancient of Days as seen in Daniel chapter seven in relation to the six Creation Days in
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 11, 2012
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      Dear LXX Scholars
      I was wondering how one can understand the title Ancient of Days as seen in Daniel chapter seven in relation to the six Creation Days in Genesis Chapter 1. Let us fist accept that the idea of time and thus the passage of days or any measure of time makes no sense unless the universe exist. This is proven by Einstein's theory of general relativity i.e. Space-Time. Might one be able to conclude that the use of the word days in the title Ancient of Days, implies many days, say thousands, or even millions of days, as far as we measure the passage of one 24/12 hour period. This conclusion would then force the use of the word day in Genesis 1 to take on the definition of long periods of time, rather than a 24 hour period. The reason I bring this up is that Ancient of Days makes no sense if we assume Genesis chapter 1's use of day is the 24/12 hour definition. That would mean that the title Ancient of Days could apply to anyone who is at lest 5 days older than someone else.

      Godspeed
      Christopher
    • Barry
      ... And this theological question/observation has what to do with the LXX? -- N.E. Barry Hofstetter Semper melius Latine sonat The American Academy
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 11, 2012
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        On 12/11/2012 1:35 PM, rhoadess wrote:
        > Dear LXX Scholars
        > I was wondering how one can understand the title Ancient of Days as seen
        > in Daniel chapter seven in relation to the six Creation Days in Genesis
        > Chapter 1. Let us fist accept that the idea of time and thus the passage
        > of days or any measure of time makes no sense unless the universe exist.
        > This is proven by Einstein's theory of general relativity i.e.
        > Space-Time. Might one be able to conclude that the use of the word days
        > in the title Ancient of Days, implies many days, say thousands, or even
        > millions of days, as far as we measure the passage of one 24/12 hour
        > period. This conclusion would then force the use of the word day in
        > Genesis 1 to take on the definition of long periods of time, rather than
        > a 24 hour period. The reason I bring this up is that Ancient of Days
        > makes no sense if we assume Genesis chapter 1's use of day is the 24/12
        > hour definition. That would mean that the title Ancient of Days could
        > apply to anyone who is at lest 5 days older than someone else.

        And this theological question/observation has what to do with the LXX?

        --
        N.E. Barry Hofstetter
        Semper melius Latine sonat
        The American Academy
        http://www.theamericanacademy.net
        The North American Reformed Seminary
        http://www.tnars.net
        Bible Translation Magazine
        http://www.bible-translation.net

        http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
      • Christopher
        Hi Barry The Greek word/s for day , I am wondering if there might be a distinction of some kind, or if we can use deduction to figure out the context. So in
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 11, 2012
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          Hi Barry
          The Greek word/s for "day", I am wondering if there might be a distinction of some kind, or if we can use deduction to figure out the context. So in Gen 2:4 lxx day is used to mean a long period of time, also in Genesis 5:1 lxx , as in other places. Why not also in Gen chapter 1 lxx, based on Daniel's Ancient of Days.  


          Christopher



          ________________________________
          From: Barry <nebarry@...>
          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 10:37 PM
          Subject: Re: [lxx] Ancient Of Days


           
          On 12/11/2012 1:35 PM, rhoadess wrote:
          > Dear LXX Scholars
          > I was wondering how one can understand the title Ancient of Days as seen
          > in Daniel chapter seven in relation to the six Creation Days in Genesis
          > Chapter 1. Let us fist accept that the idea of time and thus the passage
          > of days or any measure of time makes no sense unless the universe exist.
          > This is proven by Einstein's theory of general relativity i.e.
          > Space-Time. Might one be able to conclude that the use of the word days
          > in the title Ancient of Days, implies many days, say thousands, or even
          > millions of days, as far as we measure the passage of one 24/12 hour
          > period. This conclusion would then force the use of the word day in
          > Genesis 1 to take on the definition of long periods of time, rather than
          > a 24 hour period. The reason I bring this up is that Ancient of Days
          > makes no sense if we assume Genesis chapter 1's use of day is the 24/12
          > hour definition. That would mean that the title Ancient of Days could
          > apply to anyone who is at lest 5 days older than someone else.

          And this theological question/observation has what to do with the LXX?

          --
          N.E. Barry Hofstetter
          Semper melius Latine sonat
          The American Academy
          http://www.theamericanacademy.net
          The North American Reformed Seminary
          http://www.tnars.net
          Bible Translation Magazine
          http://www.bible-translation.net

          http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Barry
          ... The same word for day, ἡμέρα, is used in each context. Ancient of Days is simply a way of saying eternal or from ancient times. I don t think
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 11, 2012
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            On 12/12/2012 12:02 AM, Christopher wrote:
            > Hi Barry
            > The Greek word/s for "day", I am wondering if there might be a
            > distinction of some kind, or if we can use deduction to figure out the
            > context. So in Gen 2:4 lxx day is used to mean a long period of time,
            > also in Genesis 5:1 lxx , as in other places. Why not also in Gen
            > chapter 1 lxx, based on Daniel's Ancient of Days.

            The same word for day, ἡμέρα, is used in each context. "Ancient of Days"
            is simply a way of saying "eternal" or "from ancient times." I don't
            think anything in the Greek will help you. You have to go back to the
            Hebrew, and even then context will be the key factor. Nothing in the
            Greek per se will help you resolve this question.

            --
            N.E. Barry Hofstetter
            Semper melius Latine sonat
            The American Academy
            http://www.theamericanacademy.net
            The North American Reformed Seminary
            http://www.tnars.net
            Bible Translation Magazine
            http://www.bible-translation.net

            http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
          • Reader Arsenios George Blaisdell
            You might do better by getting and reading a copy of Fr. Seraphim Rose s Genesis, Creation and Early Man ...
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 11, 2012
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              You might do better by getting and reading a copy of Fr. Seraphim Rose's "Genesis, Creation and Early Man"...
              http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Creation-Early-Seraphim-Rose/dp/1887904026
              Yours is an exegetical question seeking an understanding the term hemera/day in the context of Gen 1...
              It is not a translational or textual question of the LXX...

              Reader Arsenios

              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              From: rhoadess@...
              Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:02:27 -0800
              Subject: Re: [lxx] Ancient Of Days


























              Hi Barry

              The Greek word/s for "day", I am wondering if there might be a distinction of some kind, or if we can use deduction to figure out the context. So in Gen 2:4 lxx day is used to mean a long period of time, also in Genesis 5:1 lxx , as in other places. Why not also in Gen chapter 1 lxx, based on Daniel's Ancient of Days.



              Christopher



              ________________________________

              From: Barry <nebarry@...>

              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com

              Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 10:37 PM

              Subject: Re: [lxx] Ancient Of Days







              On 12/11/2012 1:35 PM, rhoadess wrote:

              > Dear LXX Scholars

              > I was wondering how one can understand the title Ancient of Days as seen

              > in Daniel chapter seven in relation to the six Creation Days in Genesis

              > Chapter 1. Let us fist accept that the idea of time and thus the passage

              > of days or any measure of time makes no sense unless the universe exist.

              > This is proven by Einstein's theory of general relativity i.e.

              > Space-Time. Might one be able to conclude that the use of the word days

              > in the title Ancient of Days, implies many days, say thousands, or even

              > millions of days, as far as we measure the passage of one 24/12 hour

              > period. This conclusion would then force the use of the word day in

              > Genesis 1 to take on the definition of long periods of time, rather than

              > a 24 hour period. The reason I bring this up is that Ancient of Days

              > makes no sense if we assume Genesis chapter 1's use of day is the 24/12

              > hour definition. That would mean that the title Ancient of Days could

              > apply to anyone who is at lest 5 days older than someone else.



              And this theological question/observation has what to do with the LXX?



              --

              N.E. Barry Hofstetter

              Semper melius Latine sonat

              The American Academy

              http://www.theamericanacademy.net

              The North American Reformed Seminary

              http://www.tnars.net

              Bible Translation Magazine

              http://www.bible-translation.net



              http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • andrew fincke
              Christopher,The ancient of days is Samuel. See 1 Sam. 15:12: And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 12, 2012
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                Christopher,The "ancient of days" is Samuel. See 1 Sam. 15:12: "And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal." LXX ends the verse quite a bit differently, starting with "place" (lit. "hand") it says: "And he turned the chariot and went down to Gilgal to Saul. And - look! - he offered up a burnt offering to the Lord, the firstfruits of the plunder he took from Amalek!" Samuel was a judge - 1 Sam. 7:15-17 - who worked in one place (verse 17) but also made circuits (verses 15-16). Thus he had a throne with "wheels" as Dan. 7:9 describes it. That's the chariot of 1 Sam. 15:12 LXX. The wheels were fiery, since they brought him to the burnt offering Saul was engaged in. Samuel at that time was an old man - see 1 Sam. 12:2 - and Saul a king on the verge of disenfranchisement. Dan 7:14 has Saul meeting Samuel, and verse 23 describes Saul's oppressive kingdom - see 1 Samuel 8:11-17 about "devour the whole earth." Verse 26 describes the destruction of the Davidic dynasty and verse 27 the establishment of the Christian church. Andrw Fincke
                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                From: rhoadess@...
                Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:35:40 +0000
                Subject: [lxx] Ancient Of Days


























                Dear LXX Scholars

                I was wondering how one can understand the title Ancient of Days as seen in Daniel chapter seven in relation to the six Creation Days in Genesis Chapter 1. Let us fist accept that the idea of time and thus the passage of days or any measure of time makes no sense unless the universe exist. This is proven by Einstein's theory of general relativity i.e. Space-Time. Might one be able to conclude that the use of the word days in the title Ancient of Days, implies many days, say thousands, or even millions of days, as far as we measure the passage of one 24/12 hour period. This conclusion would then force the use of the word day in Genesis 1 to take on the definition of long periods of time, rather than a 24 hour period. The reason I bring this up is that Ancient of Days makes no sense if we assume Genesis chapter 1's use of day is the 24/12 hour definition. That would mean that the title Ancient of Days could apply to anyone who is at lest 5 days older than someone else.



                Godspeed

                Christopher


















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Peter Papoutsis
                Christopher:   The Ancient of Day as described in Daniel 7 of the LXX is  Jesus Christ as declared by the Tome of the Great Council of Moscow (1666-1667
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 12, 2012
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                  Christopher:
                   
                  The "Ancient of Day" as described in Daniel 7 of the LXX is "Jesus Christ" as declared by the Tome of the Great Council of Moscow (1666-1667 A.D.), Ch.2, pgs. 43-45.
                   
                  I hope this helps.

                  Peter A. Papoutsis



                  ________________________________
                  From: andrew fincke <finckea@...>
                  To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:08 AM
                  Subject: RE: [lxx] Ancient Of Days

                   

                  Christopher,The "ancient of days" is Samuel. See 1 Sam. 15:12: "And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal." LXX ends the verse quite a bit differently, starting with "place" (lit. "hand") it says: "And he turned the chariot and went down to Gilgal to Saul. And - look! - he offered up a burnt offering to the Lord, the firstfruits of the plunder he took from Amalek!" Samuel was a judge - 1 Sam. 7:15-17 - who worked in one place (verse 17) but also made circuits (verses 15-16). Thus he had a throne with "wheels" as Dan. 7:9 describes it. That's the chariot of 1 Sam. 15:12 LXX. The wheels were fiery, since they brought him to the burnt offering Saul was engaged in. Samuel at that time was an old man - see 1 Sam. 12:2 - and Saul a king on the verge of disenfranchisement. Dan 7:14 has Saul meeting Samuel,
                  and verse 23 describes Saul's oppressive kingdom - see 1 Samuel 8:11-17 about "devour the whole earth." Verse 26 describes the destruction of the Davidic dynasty and verse 27 the establishment of the Christian church. Andrw Fincke
                  To: mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com
                  From: mailto:rhoadess%40yahoo.com
                  Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:35:40 +0000
                  Subject: [lxx] Ancient Of Days

                  Dear LXX Scholars

                  I was wondering how one can understand the title Ancient of Days as seen in Daniel chapter seven in relation to the six Creation Days in Genesis Chapter 1. Let us fist accept that the idea of time and thus the passage of days or any measure of time makes no sense unless the universe exist. This is proven by Einstein's theory of general relativity i.e. Space-Time. Might one be able to conclude that the use of the word days in the title Ancient of Days, implies many days, say thousands, or even millions of days, as far as we measure the passage of one 24/12 hour period. This conclusion would then force the use of the word day in Genesis 1 to take on the definition of long periods of time, rather than a 24 hour period. The reason I bring this up is that Ancient of Days makes no sense if we assume Genesis chapter 1's use of day is the 24/12 hour definition. That would mean that the title Ancient of Days could apply to anyone who is at lest 5 days older than
                  someone else.

                  Godspeed

                  Christopher



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Barry
                  ... This is just horribly silly. Andrew, if you are serious, I m archiving this to show students how not to do exegesis -- you have invalid comparison of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 12, 2012
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                    On 12/12/2012 11:08 AM, andrew fincke wrote:
                    >
                    > Christopher,The "ancient of days" is Samuel. See 1 Sam. 15:12: "And when
                    > Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning it was told Samuel,
                    > saying, Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set him up a place, and is
                    > gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal." LXX ends the verse
                    > quite a bit differently, starting with "place" (lit. "hand") it says:
                    > "And he turned the chariot and went down to Gilgal to Saul. And - look!
                    > - he offered up a burnt offering to the Lord, the firstfruits of the
                    > plunder he took from Amalek!" Samuel was a judge - 1 Sam. 7:15-17 - who
                    > worked in one place (verse 17) but also made circuits (verses 15-16).
                    > Thus he had a throne with "wheels" as Dan. 7:9 describes it. That's the
                    > chariot of 1 Sam. 15:12 LXX. The wheels were fiery, since they brought
                    > him to the burnt offering Saul was engaged in. Samuel at that time was
                    > an old man - see 1 Sam. 12:2 - and Saul a king on the verge of
                    > disenfranchisement. Dan 7:14 has Saul meeting Samuel, and verse 23
                    > describes Saul's oppressive kingdom - see 1 Samuel 8:11-17 about "devour
                    > the whole earth." Verse 26 describes the destruction of the Davidic
                    > dynasty and verse 27 the establishment of the Christian church. Andrw Fincke

                    This is just horribly silly. Andrew, if you are serious, I'm archiving
                    this to show students how not to do exegesis -- you have invalid
                    comparison of contexts and genre mis-identification neatly in one short
                    paragraph. Modern translations recognize that NaTsYiB LYi YaD is better
                    translated to set up a monument or trophy:

                    1Sa 15:12 And Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning. And it was
                    told Samuel, "Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for
                    himself and turned and passed on and went down to Gilgal." [ESV]

                    Yes, the LXX translates literally the Hebrew idiom literally here,
                    ἀπέστακεν αὐτῷ χεῖρα (raised a hand for himself) and loses the meaning
                    altogether. Interestingly enough, Jerome renders "formicem triumphalem,"
                    a triumphal arch.


                    --
                    N.E. Barry Hofstetter
                    Semper melius Latine sonat
                    The American Academy
                    http://www.theamericanacademy.net
                    The North American Reformed Seminary
                    http://www.tnars.net
                    Bible Translation Magazine
                    http://www.bible-translation.net

                    http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
                  • Christopher
                    Hi Peter     As long as we can agree that the Ancient of Days is God, that is all I will need for my particular cause, although Ancient of Days seems to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 13, 2012
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                      Hi Peter
                          As long as we can agree that the "Ancient of Days" is God, that is all I will need for my particular cause, although "Ancient of Days" seems to be the Father, from my objective reading of Daniel chapter 7 (from an English translation). However, if the Son existed before our Universe came to be, he also can take on the title. This can only be true if I can answer the question of whether or not the term "day" in every sense of its Hebrew definition, applies to time within our Universe alone. The use of the words "Ancient" and "Days" is what is important in what I am setting out to prove. Ancient as far as my understanding of the English language denotes something that has existed for a very long time. The use of the word "Days" is also important to my argument, and I claim it means a unit of time that Adam and his prodigy are familiar with, namely the period of time needed for one full rotation of the Earth. There are a few premises I am building
                      upon, each following from the other. The first is proven by science. We have empirical evidence that time and space are all part of our expanding Universe. In other words, we cannot talk about the three spacial dimensions without also including a time dimension based on Special and General Relativity. I am also familiar with Scripture that makes a similar claim about our expanding Universe. The second is that we know our Universe had a beginning point, and therefore the passage of time (within our Universe) also had a beginning point. So I would conclude that "Day" can only refer to a measurement of time within the entire history of our Universe and not to anything outside of that history. Whatever is outside of our Universe is beyond our ability to measure. In Genesis chapter 1.1-5 we see the first "Day" of History end at the dawn of some, yet to be defined time period. It is not until the forth Day of creation that we see God bestow the sun, moon, and
                      stars as signs (clocks) for the inhabitants of Earth. So it follows that because God defines a "day" on creation "Day" four I conclude that the creation "Days" are some other passage of time, different from, but perhaps similar to the days defined by the rotation of the Earth. Moreover, it seems that on creation "Day" four, it is not until God sees that what has been done is good, that he moves on to the next project. This would imply that not only did God set the celestial clocks, but he also made sure they were working correctly before moving on to the end of this forth "Day". It follows then that in order for God to inspect the goodness of his clock, he would allow a full rotation of the Earth for one 24 hour "day", a full orbit of the Moon for one lunar "month", a full orbit of the Earth around the Sun allowing all four seasons and a "Year", thus at least 360 rotations of the Earth, all within creation "Day" four. I must also address the evenings
                      and mornings of the six creation "Days". Because there was no defined earth day until creation "Day" four, these evenings and mornings are not the same as those that occur by the rotation of the Earth outside of the light of the Sun, namely the 'evening', and then back into the light of the Sun, namely the 'morning'. From scripture, it is my claim that these are periods of inactivity as far as the creation process of each "Day" is concerned. I say this because each of the six creation "Days" has an evening and morning, that leads into the next creation "Day" in which no activity is mentioned. Is not our behavior during our 24 hour days a shadow of God's behavior during his "Days", in that we tend to retire at evening, and rise again for a new day in the morning. Were we not made in the Image of God? This then is why I think it makes little sense to conclude from Scripture, that the six "Days" of creation were merely a passage of 144 hours. However, it
                      does make sense that the "Ancient of Days" is Ancient because many more days, between the point in time Adam was created up to now have gone by. No creation can take on that title, not even the Angels, only the Creator.



                      Christopher


                      ________________________________
                      From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
                      To: "lxx@yahoogroups.com" <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:18 PM
                      Subject: Re: [lxx] Ancient Of Days


                       
                      Christopher:
                       
                      The "Ancient of Day" as described in Daniel 7 of the LXX is "Jesus Christ" as declared by the Tome of the Great Council of Moscow (1666-1667 A.D.), Ch.2, pgs. 43-45.
                       
                      I hope this helps.

                      Peter A. Papoutsis

                      ________________________________
                      From: andrew fincke <finckea@...>
                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:08 AM
                      Subject: RE: [lxx] Ancient Of Days

                       

                      Christopher,The "ancient of days" is Samuel. See 1 Sam. 15:12: "And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal." LXX ends the verse quite a bit differently, starting with "place" (lit. "hand") it says: "And he turned the chariot and went down to Gilgal to Saul. And - look! - he offered up a burnt offering to the Lord, the firstfruits of the plunder he took from Amalek!" Samuel was a judge - 1 Sam. 7:15-17 - who worked in one place (verse 17) but also made circuits (verses 15-16). Thus he had a throne with "wheels" as Dan. 7:9 describes it. That's the chariot of 1 Sam. 15:12 LXX. The wheels were fiery, since they brought him to the burnt offering Saul was engaged in. Samuel at that time was an old man - see 1 Sam. 12:2 - and Saul a king on the verge of disenfranchisement. Dan 7:14 has Saul meeting Samuel,
                      and verse 23 describes Saul's oppressive kingdom - see 1 Samuel 8:11-17 about "devour the whole earth." Verse 26 describes the destruction of the Davidic dynasty and verse 27 the establishment of the Christian church. Andrw Fincke
                      To: mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com
                      From: mailto:rhoadess%40yahoo.com
                      Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:35:40 +0000
                      Subject: [lxx] Ancient Of Days

                      Dear LXX Scholars

                      I was wondering how one can understand the title Ancient of Days as seen in Daniel chapter seven in relation to the six Creation Days in Genesis Chapter 1. Let us fist accept that the idea of time and thus the passage of days or any measure of time makes no sense unless the universe exist. This is proven by Einstein's theory of general relativity i.e. Space-Time. Might one be able to conclude that the use of the word days in the title Ancient of Days, implies many days, say thousands, or even millions of days, as far as we measure the passage of one 24/12 hour period. This conclusion would then force the use of the word day in Genesis 1 to take on the definition of long periods of time, rather than a 24 hour period. The reason I bring this up is that Ancient of Days makes no sense if we assume Genesis chapter 1's use of day is the 24/12 hour definition. That would mean that the title Ancient of Days could apply to anyone who is at lest 5 days older than
                      someone else.

                      Godspeed

                      Christopher

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Peter Papoutsis
                      Christopher, I simply stated the teaching of the Orthodox Church, what you want to do with the rest of it is up to you. Peace. [Non-text portions of this
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 13, 2012
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                        Christopher,
                        I simply stated the teaching of the Orthodox Church, what you want to do with the rest of it is up to you. Peace.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Wieland Willker
                        It may be noted that the text is not secure at this position. Is it KAI hWS PALAIOS hHMERWN Or KAI hEWS TOU PALAIOU TWN hHMERWN Best wishes Wieland
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 15, 2012
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                          It may be noted that the text is not secure at this
                          position.
                          Is it
                          KAI hWS PALAIOS hHMERWN
                          Or
                          KAI hEWS TOU PALAIOU TWN hHMERWN


                          Best wishes
                          Wieland
                          <><
                          --------------------------
                          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                          http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                          Textcritical commentary:
                          http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
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