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The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel

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  • summascriptura
    Many times over the years I ve wondered what point on the earth matches the Book of Enoch s calendar. I knew this should be possible to pinpoint, I just did
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 7, 2012
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      Many times over the years I've wondered what point on the earth matches
      the Book of Enoch's calendar. I knew this should be possible to
      pinpoint, I just did not know how. I always figured this would likely
      point to some location in Israel. It does not.

      In Enoch 72 it says the longest day of light is 16 hours with 8 hours of
      darkness. It also says the shortest day of daylight is 8 hours with 16
      hours of darkness. This is a definite location, or string of locations
      on our globe. The 16-hour daylight summer solstice and 8-hour daylight
      winter solstice define the perspective of an observer at Earth's 49th
      parallel or thereabouts. The 49th parallel is the border between US and
      Canada, it also runs thru France, Germany, Russia and Mongolia.

      Now we know the rabbis would not be able to observe these phenomena from
      Israel.

      I'm truly stumped, I cannot figure out any scenario in which someone
      would put this down as a practical calendar for anyone in Israel.

      Here's an online tool I used to find the parallel:
      http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/daylighthoursex\
      plorer.html
      <http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/daylighthourse\
      xplorer.html>

      I wonder why none of my Enoch commentaries (Vanderkam, Nickelsburg,
      Olsen, etc) mention this.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • summascriptura
      By the way, I felt okay to post this here because my Logos Bible software includes Greek fragments of Enoch as Septuagint Alternate Texts! ;-) Bob Burns San
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 7, 2012
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        By the way, I felt okay to post this here because my Logos Bible
        software includes Greek fragments of Enoch as Septuagint Alternate
        Texts! ;-)

        Bob Burns
        San Francisco
        --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "summascriptura" <summascriptura@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Many times over the years I've wondered what point on the earth
        matches
        > the Book of Enoch's calendar. I knew this should be possible to
        > pinpoint, I just did not know how. I always figured this would likely
        > point to some location in Israel. It does not.
        >
        > In Enoch 72 it says the longest day of light is 16 hours with 8 hours
        of
        > darkness. It also says the shortest day of daylight is 8 hours with 16
        > hours of darkness. This is a definite location, or string of locations
        > on our globe. The 16-hour daylight summer solstice and 8-hour daylight
        > winter solstice define the perspective of an observer at Earth's 49th
        > parallel or thereabouts. The 49th parallel is the border between US
        and
        > Canada, it also runs thru France, Germany, Russia and Mongolia.
        >
        > Now we know the rabbis would not be able to observe these phenomena
        from
        > Israel.
        >
        > I'm truly stumped, I cannot figure out any scenario in which someone
        > would put this down as a practical calendar for anyone in Israel.
        >
        > Here's an online tool I used to find the parallel:
        >
        http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/daylighthoursex\
        \
        > plorer.html
        >
        <http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/daylighthourse\
        \
        > xplorer.html>
        >
        > I wonder why none of my Enoch commentaries (Vanderkam, Nickelsburg,
        > Olsen, etc) mention this.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • C L
        Dear Summa, It occurs to me that the reason for the division of the day into periods of 16 and 8 hours is generally consistent with the organizational
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 8, 2012
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          Dear Summa,

          It occurs to me that the reason for the division of the day into periods of 16 and 8 hours is generally consistent with the organizational principle that operates in Ancient Near Eastern (ANE) cosmology. (John H. Walton describes ANE cosmology as organizational in his book Genesis 1 as Ancient Cosmology[Eisenbrauns, 2011], though I'm not sure if he goes into detail about 1 Enoch; I have only read the first couple of chapters thus far.)


          In ANE cosmology, there is a tendency to idealize or to reduce phenomena to their basic forms. There's probably a link between that concept and the Platonic ideal; after all, Plato operated in the Ancient Mediterranean, as well.

          I wonder, then, if dividing the day into 16 and 8 hours - that is, into periods of 2/3 and 1/3, respectively - has something to do with cosmological idealism. In other words, the longest and shortest days are presented in their ideal forms at the opposing ends of the calendar given by the solstices.

          It would be interesting to see if any research has been done to place 1 Enoch within the corpus of ANE cosmology.

          Sincerely,

          Chris Lovelace,
          Mar del Plata, Argentina



          That is, period 16 and 8 hours


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • summascriptura
          If this is in fact an accurate description of ANE cosmologies in general, it would seem they took an artistic approach rather than a practical one. But don t
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 8, 2012
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            If this is in fact an accurate description of ANE cosmologies in
            general, it would seem they took an artistic approach rather than a
            practical one. But don't we see ANE cosmology in action in the
            construction of Egyptian pyramids? If yes, it would seem to go against
            this generalization as the Egyptians seemed to be very precise in their
            calcualtions of the constructions to capture something of the state of
            the stars. What do you think?


            --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, C L <sigebryht@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Summa,
            >
            > It occurs to me that the reason for the division of the day into
            periods of 16 and 8 hours is generally consistent with the
            organizational principle that operates in Ancient Near Eastern (ANE)
            cosmology. (John H. Walton describes ANE cosmology as organizational in
            his book Genesis 1 as Ancient Cosmology[Eisenbrauns, 2011], though I'm
            not sure if he goes into detail about 1 Enoch; I have only read the
            first couple of chapters thus far.)
            >
            >
            > In ANE cosmology, there is a tendency to idealize or to reduce
            phenomena to their basic forms. There's probably a link between that
            concept and the Platonic ideal; after all, Plato operated in the Ancient
            Mediterranean, as well.
            >
            > I wonder, then, if dividing the day into 16 and 8 hours - that is,
            into periods of 2/3 and 1/3, respectively - has something to do with
            cosmological idealism. In other words, the longest and shortest days are
            presented in their ideal forms at the opposing ends of the calendar
            given by the solstices.
            >
            > It would be interesting to see if any research has been done to place
            1 Enoch within the corpus of ANE cosmology.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            >
            > Chris Lovelace,
            > Mar del Plata, Argentina
            >
            >
            >
            > That is, period 16 and 8 hours
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • David Hindley
            Summa, While parts of the Books of Enoch have survived in Greek, the Astronomical Book (section 3 of Eth. Enoch) is only represented by P. Oxy 2069, fragment 3
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 8, 2012
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              Summa,

              While parts of the Books of Enoch have survived in Greek, the Astronomical Book
              (section 3 of Eth. Enoch) is only represented by P. Oxy 2069, fragment 3 (verso
              & recto) corresponding to 1 En 77:7-78:1 & 78:8.

              There is also an allusion to the Greek title of the Astronomical book (MAQHMATA
              ENWC) in Eusebius' quotation of a work written by Anatolius the Alexandrian, bp.
              of Laodicea (Hist. Eccl. 7.32.19).

              There is also allusions to some of the technical terms of the Astronomic book in
              Syncellus' _Chronography_, who got it from Ananias, who in turn got it from
              Panodorus, Bibl. Nat. MS. grec 1711 (Paris) and Vat. Barberini Gr. MS. 227
              (Rome). This same passage from Syncellus is in turn summarized by George
              Cedrenus (Sinai Gr. MS. 227 & PG 121).

              From reading J T Milik's _The Books of Enoch_, (1974) one of the problems with
              the Astronomical book in 1 Enoch is that the Ethiopic version is a dramatically
              abridged epitome of the much longer Aramaic versions found near Qumran.

              P. Oxy, 2069 represents a text closer to the longer Aramaic, with the codex
              written roughly about the time of Panodorus (early 5th century).

              Panodorus (ca. 400 AD) also does so, citing a portion at the end of Aramaic
              version that is not found in the Ethiopic.

              Milik thinks that the original Aramaic version of the Astronomical book was
              written on a separate scroll(s) than the Watchers, Epistle, Dream Visions, and
              the Book of Giants (not preserved except in fragments of Manichean sources). He
              says that there was a Greek version of the Astronomical book before 400 AD. By
              Syncellus' time (806-10 AD), the Book of Giants had dropped out. Then there were
              two books in Greek, one containing Watchers, the abridged Astronomical book,
              Epistle & Dream Vision, and the other the Book of Parables.

              The Stichometry of Nicephorus (ca. 806-814 AD, a revision of an earlier
              stichometry probably compose in the 6th-7th century), attributes 4,800 stichoi
              to the "Book of Enoch", which roughly corresponds to Ethiopic Enoch as we have
              it. He concludes that the Ethiopic abridgement was made sometime between 400-800
              AD, incorporating elements of Hellenistic astronomy to bring it "up to date."

              Otto Neugebauer discusses problems with ancient Ethiopic astronomy and the Book
              of Enoch in general in Orientalia 33-1 pp. 49-71 (1964), and reprinted in his
              Astronomy and History: Selected Essays, pp. 467-489 (Springer-Verlag, 1983). The
              movement of the Sun and Moon is entirely based on the horizon system, with 6
              "gates" counted from south to north covering the full range of the horizon in
              which the Sun might appear (East) or set (West) with each "gate" representing an
              equal portion of those arcs. This was made to fit a 364 day calendar using
              linear progressions, not observation:

              Gate-Month-Days-Day-Night (hours)
              4 I 30 10 8 13-11
              5 II 30 11 7 15-9
              6 III 31 12 6 16-8
              6 IV 30 11 7 15-9
              5 V 30 10 8 13-11
              4 VI 31 9 9 12-12
              3 VII 30 8 10 11-13
              2 VIII 30 7 11 9-5
              1 IX 31 6 12 8-9
              1 X 30 7 11 9-15
              2 XI 30 8 10 11-13
              3 XII 31 9 9 12-12

              Your figures translated these "parts" (18 parts total) of day and night into
              hours (24 total, an equinoctial hour representing 75% of a "part"). So I have
              converted parts into hours. The source is a Table on page 59 (476). Hopefully it
              will come out OK.

              Neugebauer says: "The author (of the Ethiopic Astronomical book) has no idea of
              the inequality of the seasons [p. 59] ... the speculations of modern authors
              about an early form of the Hebrew calendar ... completely misunderstood the
              purely schematic character of our text. ... It is amusing to see modern authors
              looking for geographical regions where a ratio of 2:1 for the extremal daylight
              would be correct, ignoring the fact that nowhere on earth can the scheme [of the
              gates] as a whole be based on reality [p. 60]."

              So I wouldn't be surprised if the extremal ratio of day/night doesn't fit the
              region of the Middle East or Alexandria (30 degrees N), much less Ethiopia (11
              to 15 degrees). Unless we want to postulate an origin in Luxembourg.

              Dave Hindley
              Newton Falls, Ohio, USA

              -----Original Message-----
              Fro1m2: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              summascriptura
              Sent1: Friday, September 07, 2012 7:28 PM
              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [lxx] The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel


              Many times over the years I've wondered what point on the earth matches the Book
              of Enoch's calendar. I knew this should be possible to pinpoint, I just did not
              know how. I always figured this would likely point to some location in Israel.
              It does not.


              In Enoch 72 it says the longest day of light is 16 hours with 8 hours of
              darkness. It also says the shortest day of daylight is 8 hours with 16 hours of
              darkness. This is a definite location, or string of locations on our globe.
              The 16-hour daylight summer solstice and 8-hour daylight winter solstice define
              the perspective of an observer at Earth's 49th parallel or thereabouts. The
              49th parallel is the border between US and Canada, it also runs thru France,
              Germany, Russia and Mongolia.

              Now we know the rabbis would not be able to observe these phenomena from Israel.

              I'm truly stumped, I cannot figure out any scenario in which someone would put
              this down as a practical calendar for anyone in Israel.

              Here's an online tool I used to find the parallel:
              http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/daylighthoursex\
              plorer.html
              <http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/daylighthourse\
              xplorer.html>

              I wonder why none of my Enoch commentaries (Vanderkam, Nickelsburg, Olsen, etc)
              mention this.




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Scott Rhodes
              ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 8, 2012
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                On Sep 8, 2012, at 3:21 PM, "David Hindley" <dhindley@...> wrote:

                > Summa,
                >
                > While parts of the Books of Enoch have survived in Greek, the Astronomical Book
                > (section 3 of Eth. Enoch) is only represented by P. Oxy 2069, fragment 3 (verso
                > & recto) corresponding to 1 En 77:7-78:1 & 78:8.
                >
                > There is also an allusion to the Greek title of the Astronomical book (MAQHMATA
                > ENWC) in Eusebius' quotation of a work written by Anatolius the Alexandrian, bp.
                > of Laodicea (Hist. Eccl. 7.32.19).
                >
                > There is also allusions to some of the technical terms of the Astronomic book in
                > Syncellus' _Chronography_, who got it from Ananias, who in turn got it from
                > Panodorus, Bibl. Nat. MS. grec 1711 (Paris) and Vat. Barberini Gr. MS. 227
                > (Rome). This same passage from Syncellus is in turn summarized by George
                > Cedrenus (Sinai Gr. MS. 227 & PG 121).
                >
                > From reading J T Milik's _The Books of Enoch_, (1974) one of the problems with
                > the Astronomical book in 1 Enoch is that the Ethiopic version is a dramatically
                > abridged epitome of the much longer Aramaic versions found near Qumran.
                >
                > P. Oxy, 2069 represents a text closer to the longer Aramaic, with the codex
                > written roughly about the time of Panodorus (early 5th century).
                >
                > Panodorus (ca. 400 AD) also does so, citing a portion at the end of Aramaic
                > version that is not found in the Ethiopic.
                >
                > Milik thinks that the original Aramaic version of the Astronomical book was
                > written on a separate scroll(s) than the Watchers, Epistle, Dream Visions, and
                > the Book of Giants (not preserved except in fragments of Manichean sources). He
                > says that there was a Greek version of the Astronomical book before 400 AD. By
                > Syncellus' time (806-10 AD), the Book of Giants had dropped out. Then there were
                > two books in Greek, one containing Watchers, the abridged Astronomical book,
                > Epistle & Dream Vision, and the other the Book of Parables.
                >
                > The Stichometry of Nicephorus (ca. 806-814 AD, a revision of an earlier
                > stichometry probably compose in the 6th-7th century), attributes 4,800 stichoi
                > to the "Book of Enoch", which roughly corresponds to Ethiopic Enoch as we have
                > it. He concludes that the Ethiopic abridgement was made sometime between 400-800
                > AD, incorporating elements of Hellenistic astronomy to bring it "up to date."
                >
                > Otto Neugebauer discusses problems with ancient Ethiopic astronomy and the Book
                > of Enoch in general in Orientalia 33-1 pp. 49-71 (1964), and reprinted in his
                > Astronomy and History: Selected Essays, pp. 467-489 (Springer-Verlag, 1983). The
                > movement of the Sun and Moon is entirely based on the horizon system, with 6
                > "gates" counted from south to north covering the full range of the horizon in
                > which the Sun might appear (East) or set (West) with each "gate" representing an
                > equal portion of those arcs. This was made to fit a 364 day calendar using
                > linear progressions, not observation:
                >
                > Gate-Month-Days-Day-Night (hours)
                > 4 I 30 10 8 13-11
                > 5 II 30 11 7 15-9
                > 6 III 31 12 6 16-8
                > 6 IV 30 11 7 15-9
                > 5 V 30 10 8 13-11
                > 4 VI 31 9 9 12-12
                > 3 VII 30 8 10 11-13
                > 2 VIII 30 7 11 9-5
                > 1 IX 31 6 12 8-9
                > 1 X 30 7 11 9-15
                > 2 XI 30 8 10 11-13
                > 3 XII 31 9 9 12-12
                >
                > Your figures translated these "parts" (18 parts total) of day and night into
                > hours (24 total, an equinoctial hour representing 75% of a "part"). So I have
                > converted parts into hours. The source is a Table on page 59 (476). Hopefully it
                > will come out OK.
                >
                > Neugebauer says: "The author (of the Ethiopic Astronomical book) has no idea of
                > the inequality of the seasons [p. 59] ... the speculations of modern authors
                > about an early form of the Hebrew calendar ... completely misunderstood the
                > purely schematic character of our text. ... It is amusing to see modern authors
                > looking for geographical regions where a ratio of 2:1 for the extremal daylight
                > would be correct, ignoring the fact that nowhere on earth can the scheme [of the
                > gates] as a whole be based on reality [p. 60]."
                >
                > So I wouldn't be surprised if the extremal ratio of day/night doesn't fit the
                > region of the Middle East or Alexandria (30 degrees N), much less Ethiopia (11
                > to 15 degrees). Unless we want to postulate an origin in Luxembourg.
                >
                > Dave Hindley
                > Newton Falls, Ohio, USA
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > Fro1m2: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                > summascriptura
                > Sent1: Friday, September 07, 2012 7:28 PM
                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [lxx] The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel
                >
                > Many times over the years I've wondered what point on the earth matches the Book
                > of Enoch's calendar. I knew this should be possible to pinpoint, I just did not
                > know how. I always figured this would likely point to some location in Israel.
                > It does not.
                >
                > In Enoch 72 it says the longest day of light is 16 hours with 8 hours of
                > darkness. It also says the shortest day of daylight is 8 hours with 16 hours of
                > darkness. This is a definite location, or string of locations on our globe.
                > The 16-hour daylight summer solstice and 8-hour daylight winter solstice define
                > the perspective of an observer at Earth's 49th parallel or thereabouts. The
                > 49th parallel is the border between US and Canada, it also runs thru France,
                > Germany, Russia and Mongolia.
                >
                > Now we know the rabbis would not be able to observe these phenomena from Israel.
                >
                > I'm truly stumped, I cannot figure out any scenario in which someone would put
                > this down as a practical calendar for anyone in Israel.
                >
                > Here's an online tool I used to find the parallel:
                > http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/daylighthoursex\
                > plorer.html
                > <http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/daylighthourse\
                > xplorer.html>
                >
                > I wonder why none of my Enoch commentaries (Vanderkam, Nickelsburg, Olsen, etc)
                > mention this.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • C L
                4 New Messages Digest #1070 1a Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth s 49th parallel by C L sigebryht 1b Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 9, 2012
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                  4 New Messages
                  Digest #1070

                  1a
                  Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel by "C L" sigebryht
                  1b
                  Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel by "summascriptura" summascriptura
                  1c
                  Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel by "David Hindley" dchindley
                  1d
                  The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel by "Scott Rhodes" khrodos
                  "If this is in fact an accurate description of ANE cosmologies in
                  general, it would seem they took an artistic approach rather than a
                  practical one. But don't we see ANE cosmology in action in the
                  construction of Egyptian pyramids? If yes, it would seem to go against
                  this generalization as the Egyptians seemed to be very precise in their
                  calcualtions of the constructions to capture something of the state of
                  the stars. What do you think?"


                  Since the pyramids and 1 Enoch are in different categories as "building" and "text, respectively, I don't see a conflict. That is, buildings would require architectural precision by their nature, at least to maintain structural integrity. However, artistic texts do not have to follow the same rules as buildings. Besides that, 1 Enoch is not an Egyptian text, if I understand Van der Kam's work on that text correctly. So, 1 Enoch may share general cosmological features in common with Egyptian texts, but they may also differ in specifics. But more importantly: for the comparison to be fruitful, I think it's better to compare "like objects," ie, texts to texts. How do Egyptian texts compare to 1 Enoch, first of all? And second, are Egyptiantexts the best source to compare? On the surface, I see the similarity. However, 1 Enoch may bear more affinity on closer inspection to, say, Akkadian or Sumerian texts. If so, maybe it would be more profitable to compare,
                  say. Babylonian astronomical works with 1 Enoch to see if they share some of the features you describe.

                  Just food for thought. These are some of the questions I think might be helpful in wrestling with the issue(s) you describe.

                  Sincerely,

                  Chris Lovelace,
                  Mar del Plata, Argentina




                  Messages
                  1a
                  Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel
                  Sat Sep 8, 2012 8:22 am (PDT) . Posted by:
                  "C L" sigebryht
                  Dear Summa,

                  It occurs to me that the reason for the division of the day into periods
                  of 16 and 8 hours is generally consistent with the organizational
                  principle that operates in Ancient Near Eastern (ANE) cosmology. (John
                  H. Walton describes ANE cosmology as organizational in his book Genesis 1
                  as Ancient Cosmology[Eisenbrau ns, 2011], though I'm not sure if he
                  goes into detail about 1 Enoch; I have only read the first couple of
                  chapters thus far.)

                  In ANE cosmology, there is a tendency to idealize or to reduce phenomena
                  to their basic forms. There's probably a link between that concept and
                  the Platonic ideal; after all, Plato operated in the Ancient
                  Mediterranean, as well.

                  I wonder, then, if dividing the day into 16 and 8 hours - that is, into
                  periods of 2/3 and 1/3, respectively - has something to do with
                  cosmological idealism. In other words, the longest and shortest days are
                  presented in their ideal forms at the opposing ends of the calendar
                  given by the solstices.

                  It would be interesting to see if any research has been done to place 1 Enoch within the corpus of ANE cosmology.

                  Sincerely,

                  Chris Lovelace,
                  Mar del Plata, Argentina

                  That is, period 16 and 8 hours

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                  Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (6) . Top ^
                  1b
                  Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel
                  Sat Sep 8, 2012 11:21 am (PDT) . Posted by:
                  "summascriptura" summascriptura
                  If this is in fact an accurate description of ANE cosmologies in
                  general, it would seem they took an artistic approach rather than a
                  practical one. But don't we see ANE cosmology in action in the
                  construction of Egyptian pyramids? If yes, it would seem to go against
                  this generalization as the Egyptians seemed to be very precise in their
                  calcualtions of the constructions to capture something of the state of
                  the stars. What do you think?

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Hindley
                  C L, To be honest, I sincerely doubt that any Egyptian number symbolism is involved here. I just remembered that Otto Neugebauer, one of the foremost
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 10, 2012
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                    C L,

                    To be honest, I sincerely doubt that any Egyptian number symbolism is involved
                    here.

                    I just remembered that Otto Neugebauer, one of the foremost authorities on
                    ancient astronomy, also has edited a translation of the Astronomical Book of
                    Ethiopic Enoch in Appendix A to _The Book of Enoch Or I Enoch: A New English
                    Edition with Commentary and Textual Notes_, ed. by Matthew Black and James C
                    VanderKam (Brill: 1985, pp 386-417). The four Aramaic fragments are dealt with
                    in the body of the book, because they describe a much more complicated system
                    than does the Ethiopic version, which is much simplified. Hint: he has not
                    changed his low regard of the astronomical knowledge of the ancient Ethiopians,
                    Jews or even Egyptians.

                    Dave Hindley
                    Newton Falls, Ohio, USA

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C L
                    Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 1:05 PM
                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [lxx] Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th
                    parallel

                    Digest #1070

                    Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel by "Scott
                    Rhodes" khrodos

                    "If this is in fact an accurate description of ANE cosmologies in general, it
                    would seem they took an artistic approach rather than a practical one. But
                    don't we see ANE cosmology in action in the construction of Egyptian pyramids?
                    If yes, it would seem to go against this generalization as the Egyptians seemed
                    to be very precise in their calcualtions of the constructions to capture
                    something of the state of the stars. What do you think?"

                    Since the pyramids and 1 Enoch are in different categories as "building" and
                    "text, respectively, I don't see a conflict. That is, buildings would require
                    architectural precision by their nature, at least to maintain structural
                    integrity. However, artistic texts do not have to follow the same rules as
                    buildings. Besides that, 1 Enoch is not an Egyptian text, if I understand Van
                    der Kam's work on that text correctly. So, 1 Enoch may share general
                    cosmological features in common with Egyptian texts, but they may also differ in
                    specifics. But more importantly: for the comparison to be fruitful, I think it's
                    better to compare "like objects," ie, texts to texts. How do Egyptian texts
                    compare to 1 Enoch, first of all? And second, are Egyptiantexts the best source
                    to compare? On the surface, I see the similarity. However, 1 Enoch may bear more
                    affinity on closer inspection to, say, Akkadian or Sumerian texts. If so, maybe
                    it would be more profitable to compare, say. Babylonian astronomical works with
                    1 Enoch to see if they share some of the features you describe.

                    Just food for thought. These are some of the questions I think might be helpful
                    in wrestling with the issue(s) you describe.

                    Sincerely,

                    Chris Lovelace,
                    Mar del Plata, Argentina




                    Messages
                    1a
                    Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel
                    Sat Sep 8, 2012 8:22 am (PDT) . Posted by:
                    "C L" sigebryht
                    Dear Summa,

                    It occurs to me that the reason for the division of the day into periods of 16
                    and 8 hours is generally consistent with the organizational principle that
                    operates in Ancient Near Eastern (ANE) cosmology. (John H. Walton describes ANE
                    cosmology as organizational in his book Genesis 1 as Ancient
                    Cosmology[Eisenbrau ns, 2011], though I'm not sure if he goes into detail about
                    1 Enoch; I have only read the first couple of chapters thus far.)

                    In ANE cosmology, there is a tendency to idealize or to reduce phenomena to
                    their basic forms. There's probably a link between that concept and the Platonic
                    ideal; after all, Plato operated in the Ancient Mediterranean, as well.

                    I wonder, then, if dividing the day into 16 and 8 hours - that is, into periods
                    of 2/3 and 1/3, respectively - has something to do with cosmological idealism.
                    In other words, the longest and shortest days are presented in their ideal
                    forms at the opposing ends of the calendar given by the solstices.

                    It would be interesting to see if any research has been done to place 1 Enoch
                    within the corpus of ANE cosmology.

                    Sincerely,

                    Chris Lovelace,
                    Mar del Plata, Argentina

                    That is, period 16 and 8 hours

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                    1b
                    Re: The Enochan calendar in Enoch 72 points to Earth's 49th parallel
                    Sat Sep 8, 2012 11:21 am (PDT) . Posted by:
                    "summascriptura" summascriptura
                    If this is in fact an accurate description of ANE cosmologies in general, it
                    would seem they took an artistic approach rather than a practical one. But
                    don't we see ANE cosmology in action in the construction of Egyptian pyramids?
                    If yes, it would seem to go against this generalization as the Egyptians seemed
                    to be very precise in their calcualtions of the constructions to capture
                    something of the state of the stars. What do you think?

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  • C L
                    Dave, Right. To clarify, I don t think that Egyptian symbolism is involved. I merely mentioned the Egyptians in response to Summa s comments that brought up
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 11, 2012
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                      Dave,

                      Right. To clarify, I don't think that Egyptian symbolism is involved. I merely mentioned the Egyptians in response to Summa's comments that brought up the Egyptians.

                      My only point is that 1 Enoch, being a text, should be compared with other texts to see how we should read 1 Enoch.

                      For instance, it seems to have a lot in in common with Apocalyptic, even in the Astronomical Book: The section where Enoch receives revelation via Uriel seems comparable to Zechariah 1-2, where the prophet receives revelation via an angelic messenger; or Daniel's dialogues with Gabriel, et al.

                      It is possible that, if we read the various books* that comprise 1 Enoch as apocalyptic rather than astronomical treatise, then this may result in a better understanding of what the text is trying to communicate.

                      *By "various books, I want to point out that each of the sections in 1 Enoch may be separate books. Therefore, we should consider reading each book separately.
                      For example, the Book of the Watchers should probably be read as apocalyptic. Maybe the Astronomical Book and the Book of Dreams should also be read primarily as apocalyptic.
                      But the Book of Parables might have more in common with Wisdom Literature, so the hermeneutic for interpreting it would need to be nuanced accordingly.

                      Just some thoughts on methodology here.

                      Best,

                      Chris



                      C L,

                      To be honest, I sincerely doubt that any Egyptian number symbolism is involved
                      here.

                      I just remembered that Otto Neugebauer, one of the foremost authorities on
                      ancient astronomy, also has edited a translation of the Astronomical Book of
                      Ethiopic Enoch in Appendix A to _The Book of Enoch Or I Enoch: A New English
                      Edition with Commentary and Textual Notes_, ed. by Matthew Black and James C
                      VanderKam (Brill: 1985, pp 386-417). The four Aramaic fragments are dealt with
                      in the body of the book, because they describe a much more complicated system
                      than does the Ethiopic version, which is much simplified. Hint: he has not
                      changed his low regard of the astronomical knowledge of the ancient Ethiopians,
                      Jews or even Egyptians.

                      Dave Hindley
                      Newton Falls, Ohio, USA


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • summascriptura
                      ... Enoch as apocalyptic rather than astronomical treatise, then this may result in a better understanding of what the text is trying to communicate.
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 11, 2012
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                        --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, C L <sigebryht@...> wrote:
                        > It is possible that, if we read the various books* that comprise 1
                        Enoch as apocalyptic rather than astronomical treatise, then this may
                        result in a better understanding of what the text is trying to
                        communicate.

                        Interesting observation, I will ahve to revisit the book(s) with this in
                        mind...
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