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Re: Did Jesus use the Septuagint?

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  • C L
    Dear Abram (et al.), As I read some of the preliminary responses to your question here, it seems helpful to distinguish between the text(s) Jesus used and the
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 1, 2012
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      Dear Abram (et al.),

      As I read some of the preliminary responses to your question here, it seems helpful to distinguish between the text(s) Jesus used and the texts employed by the Evangelists.

      Clearly, much work has already been done on what texts the gospel writers used. That question has already been addressed here, in any case, so I won't address it except to note that I think that the New Testament writers' use of the Hebrew Scriptures reflect the milieu of their time: The bulk of their citations align with the Old Greek (except Daniel, which seems to follow Theodotion); a significant number align with what may be called a Proto-Masoretic text type; and a relatively small fraction of all citations in the Old Testament (~15%, if memory serves) appear to align with textual witnesses that are neither Proto-Masoretic nor Old Greek/Septuagint in nature.

      Notably, the manuscripts found at Qumran show a similar distribution of texts that align with Old Greek/Septuagint, Proto-Masoretic, and Other. (Discounting Pesher texts and other texts that seem peculiar to the Qumran community).

      Qumran, though it probably had no direct contact with Jesus, provides a snapshot of the textual witnesses to the Hebrew Scriptures in circulation roughly during the time of Jesus. Furthermore, I believe it is telling that this highly devout community did not restrict itself to Hebrew or Aramaic, but also made extensive use of Greek texts. This is particularly noteworthy if we consider that the Qumran community was anti-Hellenist. That is, as I understand it, the Qumran community was very critical of the pervasive Greek influence in Jerusalem; yet this did not prevent them from including extensive copies of the Scriptures in Greek. This suggests that use of the Greek Scriptures was so pervasive that it infiltrated even among those who had an aversion to other things Greek.

      If the Greek Scriptures were that pervasive even in an isolated community, then I think a good case could be made that Jesus - who was not isolated and spent much of his ministry in areas (ie, the Galilee, the Pentapolis, etc.) where Greek was likely as prevalent as Aramaic - most likely used the Greek Scriptures when appropriate.


      (By the same token, the Bar-Kokhba texts also attest to wide use of Greek among the rebels who fought to depose Roman rule. Again, this is a group that I might expect to eschew the use of Greek on the basis of patriotism or piety [not that they would have distinguished patriotism from piety, necessarily]. However, they have no problem using Greek, as well as Aramaic and even Hebrew). I don't have references for Bar-Kokhba, but they should be easy to track down.


      There is probably an argument to be made from the Evangelists, as well: If the gospel writers were disciples of Jesus (either directly or indirectly), and those disciples used the Old Greek/Septuagint extensively, is it not reasonable to posit that their use of the Scripture mimics that of their teacher?

      Of course, it is possible that Jesus read his Scriptures in Hebrew and Aramaic, and his disciples BROKE with that practice by preferring the Greek. However, is such a break LIKELY? And is it likely for that switch in preference to be roughly the same for all the Evangelists/New Testament writers?

      On the other hand, if Jesus had shown a strong preference for citing the Scriptures in Hebrew or Aramaic during his ministry, would we not expect the disciples to mimic their master by reflecting the same preference?


      I'm not convinced that this is a strong argument that Jesus used the Old Greek/Septuagint. However, I do think that it is one argument among others that may merit attention.



      For details on the Greek texts at Qumran, see


      The text-critical use of the Septuagint in biblical research By: Tov, Emanuel. Jerusalem: Simor Ltd, 1997 (2d ed ). Publication Type: Book (Start with this book). 


      Textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible By: Tov, Emanuel. Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress, 2001 (2nd revised ed ). PublicationType: Book   


      You may also find these informative:


      Hebrew Bible, Greek Bible, and Qumran: collected essays By: Tov, Emanuel. Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2008 . Publication Type: Book   


      The significance of the texts from the Judean Desert for the history of the text of the Hebrew Bible : a new synthesis. By: Tov, Emanuel. Source: Qumran between the Old and New Testaments, p 277-309.Sheffield, Eng : Sheffield Academic Pr, 1998 Publication Type: Essay   



      On the question of whether Jesus SPOKE or taught in Greek, you might want to start with these:

      Did Jesus Ever Teach in Greek. By: Porter, Stanley E.. Source: Tyndale Bulletin, 44 no 2 N 1993, p 199-235. Publication Type: Article   


      Jesus spoke Greek By: Christodoulou, Christopher. Source: Patristic and Byzantine Review, 23 no 1-3 2005, p 117-129. Publication
      Type: Article   


      Jesus and the use of Greek: a response to Maurice Casey By: Porter, Stanley E.. Source: Bulletin for Biblical Research, 10 no 1
      2000, p 71-87. Publication Type: Article   


      Finally, I have to mention Barthelemy, Studies in the Text of the Old Testament (Eisenbrauns, 2012). The opening discussion on the transmission of the Hebrew Scriptures is very helpful, even though it does not deal with the Greek directly at that point. (I'm still reading this book, so I'm not sure how much Barthelemy gets into that later).

      I wish you success in your studies. Please write back to share your conclusions.

      Sincerely,

      Chris Lovelace,
      M.Div., Th.M. (Candidate)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ken Penner
      I just want to correct one point from this otherwise helpful post. The Qumran LXX fragments are few and tiny: 7Q1, with Exodus 28:4-7, and 4Q119-122. Some of
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 1, 2012
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        I just want to correct one point from this otherwise helpful post. The Qumran LXX fragments are few and tiny: 7Q1, with Exodus 28:4-7, and 4Q119-122. Some of the conclusions drawn below may need to be adjusted accordingly.

        Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
        Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
        St. Francis Xavier University
        902-867-2265
        kpenner@...




        From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C L
        Sent: August-01-12 3:29 PM
        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [lxx] Re: Did Jesus use the Septuagint?



        Dear Abram (et al.),

        As I read some of the preliminary responses to your question here, it seems helpful to distinguish between the text(s) Jesus used and the texts employed by the Evangelists.

        Clearly, much work has already been done on what texts the gospel writers used. That question has already been addressed here, in any case, so I won't address it except to note that I think that the New Testament writers' use of the Hebrew Scriptures reflect the milieu of their time: The bulk of their citations align with the Old Greek (except Daniel, which seems to follow Theodotion); a significant number align with what may be called a Proto-Masoretic text type; and a relatively small fraction of all citations in the Old Testament (~15%, if memory serves) appear to align with textual witnesses that are neither Proto-Masoretic nor Old Greek/Septuagint in nature.

        Notably, the manuscripts found at Qumran show a similar distribution of texts that align with Old Greek/Septuagint, Proto-Masoretic, and Other. (Discounting Pesher texts and other texts that seem peculiar to the Qumran community).

        Qumran, though it probably had no direct contact with Jesus, provides a snapshot of the textual witnesses to the Hebrew Scriptures in circulation roughly during the time of Jesus. Furthermore, I believe it is telling that this highly devout community did not restrict itself to Hebrew or Aramaic, but also made extensive use of Greek texts. This is particularly noteworthy if we consider that the Qumran community was anti-Hellenist. That is, as I understand it, the Qumran community was very critical of the pervasive Greek influence in Jerusalem; yet this did not prevent them from including extensive copies of the Scriptures in Greek. This suggests that use of the Greek Scriptures was so pervasive that it infiltrated even among those who had an aversion to other things Greek.

        If the Greek Scriptures were that pervasive even in an isolated community, then I think a good case could be made that Jesus - who was not isolated and spent much of his ministry in areas (ie, the Galilee, the Pentapolis, etc.) where Greek was likely as prevalent as Aramaic - most likely used the Greek Scriptures when appropriate.

        (By the same token, the Bar-Kokhba texts also attest to wide use of Greek among the rebels who fought to depose Roman rule. Again, this is a group that I might expect to eschew the use of Greek on the basis of patriotism or piety [not that they would have distinguished patriotism from piety, necessarily]. However, they have no problem using Greek, as well as Aramaic and even Hebrew). I don't have references for Bar-Kokhba, but they should be easy to track down.

        There is probably an argument to be made from the Evangelists, as well: If the gospel writers were disciples of Jesus (either directly or indirectly), and those disciples used the Old Greek/Septuagint extensively, is it not reasonable to posit that their use of the Scripture mimics that of their teacher?

        Of course, it is possible that Jesus read his Scriptures in Hebrew and Aramaic, and his disciples BROKE with that practice by preferring the Greek. However, is such a break LIKELY? And is it likely for that switch in preference to be roughly the same for all the Evangelists/New Testament writers?

        On the other hand, if Jesus had shown a strong preference for citing the Scriptures in Hebrew or Aramaic during his ministry, would we not expect the disciples to mimic their master by reflecting the same preference?

        I'm not convinced that this is a strong argument that Jesus used the Old Greek/Septuagint. However, I do think that it is one argument among others that may merit attention.

        For details on the Greek texts at Qumran, see

        The text-critical use of the Septuagint in biblical research By: Tov, Emanuel. Jerusalem: Simor Ltd, 1997 (2d ed ). Publication Type: Book (Start with this book).

        Textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible By: Tov, Emanuel. Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress, 2001 (2nd revised ed ). PublicationType: Book

        You may also find these informative:

        Hebrew Bible, Greek Bible, and Qumran: collected essays By: Tov, Emanuel. Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2008 . Publication Type: Book

        The significance of the texts from the Judean Desert for the history of the text of the Hebrew Bible : a new synthesis. By: Tov, Emanuel. Source: Qumran between the Old and New Testaments, p 277-309.Sheffield, Eng : Sheffield Academic Pr, 1998 Publication Type: Essay

        On the question of whether Jesus SPOKE or taught in Greek, you might want to start with these:

        Did Jesus Ever Teach in Greek. By: Porter, Stanley E.. Source: Tyndale Bulletin, 44 no 2 N 1993, p 199-235. Publication Type: Article

        Jesus spoke Greek By: Christodoulou, Christopher. Source: Patristic and Byzantine Review, 23 no 1-3 2005, p 117-129. Publication
        Type: Article

        Jesus and the use of Greek: a response to Maurice Casey By: Porter, Stanley E.. Source: Bulletin for Biblical Research, 10 no 1
        2000, p 71-87. Publication Type: Article

        Finally, I have to mention Barthelemy, Studies in the Text of the Old Testament (Eisenbrauns, 2012). The opening discussion on the transmission of the Hebrew Scriptures is very helpful, even though it does not deal with the Greek directly at that point. (I'm still reading this book, so I'm not sure how much Barthelemy gets into that later).

        I wish you success in your studies. Please write back to share your conclusions.

        Sincerely,

        Chris Lovelace,
        M.Div., Th.M. (Candidate)

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Kraft
        For a collection of the earliest preserved Greek fragments, with links to (some) images and (some) commentary, see
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 1, 2012
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          For a collection of the earliest preserved Greek fragments, with links
          to (some) images and (some) commentary, see
          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html --
          this material is in need of some updating, but can provide a useful
          starting point. By checking the list (see Quicklinks), you will note
          that there is more from Qumran than Ken Penner noted, although certainly
          not a flood. And perhaps of special interest is the fragment from the
          "apocryphal" Letter of Jeremiah from cave 7, where most of the Greek
          materials were found.

          Bob Kraft

          On 8/1/2012 11:55 AM, Abram Kielsmeier-Jones wrote:
          >
          > Bob, Ken, and others:
          >
          > Thanks for the replies and clarifications. Duly noted about
          > anachronisms. What I should have said/asked was something about Jesus
          > using a text that was closer to a Greek scroll available at the time
          > vs. a Hebrew one. I often fall prey to what I'm sure is the common
          > language student fallacy of thinking that by being able to work my way
          > through the BHS, NA27, or Rahlfs' LXX, I now have access to the
          > ever-elusive original. But of course that's not quite true. That's
          > why, among other good reasons, so many folks fruitfully engage in
          > textual criticism.
          >
          > If I wanted to further explore what Jesus had access to (in terms of
          > Greek scrolls, whether Isaiah or some other), does anyone (Prof.
          > Kraft?) have good recommendations on where to go?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Abram
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Robert Kraft <kraft@... <mailto:kraft%40sas.upenn.edu>>
          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 10:58 AM
          > Subject: Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
          >
          >
          >
          > Just a reminder on such questions. There was no "the LXX" in our sense
          > of "Bible" -- and no "MT" -- in the first century. It was a scroll
          > society, and while collections of scrolls may have existed in some
          > places, it is quite anachronistic to think of traveling individuals
          > having all those scrolls along. More appropriate would be to speak of
          > book by book usage (did Jesus know the Greek Isaiah scroll, for
          > example), or in many instances, of the use of excerpts. The "playing
          > field" was quite different from what is often assumed.
          >
          > Bob Kraft, emeritus UPenn
          >
          > On 7/31/2012 8:55 PM, Ken Penner wrote:
          > > Yes, the two questions are separate: (1) whether Jesus read the
          > scriptures in Greek or Hebrew, and (2) whether the Gospel writers
          > quoted from the Greek or Hebrew.
          > > Regarding the question whether the Gospels quote from the Greek or
          > Hebrew, there are some detailed data at
          > http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spexecsum.htm
          > > The answer there (to question 2) is that that the Gospel writers'
          > quotes match the "Septuagint" more often than the Masoretic Text.
          > > The answer to question 1 is less empirical, but depends on what
          > languages Jesus would have used. We have evidence that he spoke
          > Aramaic and/or Hebrew, but the evidence that he spoke Greek at all is
          > flimsy (IMO).
          > >
          > >
          > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
          > > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
          > > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
          > > kpenner@... <mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
          > [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
          > Of abramkielsmeierjones
          > > Sent: July-31-12 6:17 PM
          > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > Subject: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The reading I'm doing is leading me to believe he did not (he spoke
          > > Aramaic, etc.). I began to think and write otherwise here
          > > <http://wp.me/p2muvc-5E> , but then posted updates to what I am now
          > > afraid was a wrong-headed claim: namely, that Jesus used the Septuagint.
          > >
          > > I'm reading R.T. France and about to read Steve Moyise on the subject.
          > > What I can see being concluded with certainty is that there are *some*
          > > Gospel texts where the words the Gospel writer has Jesus saying agree
          > > with the LXX against the MT (France lists a number of these)...
          > > certainly not all cases, but that it does happen. But is this a
          > > different thing than saying Jesus himself used the Septuagint?
          > >
          > > That's my thought, but any LXX vets on here that can offer me some
          > > suggestions or even further resources on the topic would be great. I'm
          > > new here, so my apologies if this has already been discussed on this
          > > forum.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > >
          > > Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
          > > ---------------------------
          > > Abram K-J
          > > Blog: Words on the Word <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/>
          > > Septuagint <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/> posts-to-date
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ken Penner
          Bob, are you saying there are more Qumran LXX fragments than 7Q1 and 4Q119-122? I don’t see any at
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 1, 2012
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            Bob, are you saying there are more Qumran LXX fragments than 7Q1 and 4Q119-122? I don’t see any at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak/earlylxx/jewishpap.html#jewishmss , although I see 1 Enoch and the Letter of Jeremiah, as well as copies from locations other than Qumran. What am I missing?
            Ken

            Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
            Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
            http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
            kpenner@...



            From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Kraft
            Sent: August-01-12 7:19 PM
            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?



            For a collection of the earliest preserved Greek fragments, with links
            to (some) images and (some) commentary, see
            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html<http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak/earlylxx/jewishpap.html> --
            this material is in need of some updating, but can provide a useful
            starting point. By checking the list (see Quicklinks), you will note
            that there is more from Qumran than Ken Penner noted, although certainly
            not a flood. And perhaps of special interest is the fragment from the
            "apocryphal" Letter of Jeremiah from cave 7, where most of the Greek
            materials were found.

            Bob Kraft

            On 8/1/2012 11:55 AM, Abram Kielsmeier-Jones wrote:
            >
            > Bob, Ken, and others:
            >
            > Thanks for the replies and clarifications. Duly noted about
            > anachronisms. What I should have said/asked was something about Jesus
            > using a text that was closer to a Greek scroll available at the time
            > vs. a Hebrew one. I often fall prey to what I'm sure is the common
            > language student fallacy of thinking that by being able to work my way
            > through the BHS, NA27, or Rahlfs' LXX, I now have access to the
            > ever-elusive original. But of course that's not quite true. That's
            > why, among other good reasons, so many folks fruitfully engage in
            > textual criticism.
            >
            > If I wanted to further explore what Jesus had access to (in terms of
            > Greek scrolls, whether Isaiah or some other), does anyone (Prof.
            > Kraft?) have good recommendations on where to go?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Abram
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...<mailto:kraft%40sas.upenn.edu> <mailto:kraft%40sas.upenn.edu>>
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 10:58 AM
            > Subject: Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
            >
            >
            >
            > Just a reminder on such questions. There was no "the LXX" in our sense
            > of "Bible" -- and no "MT" -- in the first century. It was a scroll
            > society, and while collections of scrolls may have existed in some
            > places, it is quite anachronistic to think of traveling individuals
            > having all those scrolls along. More appropriate would be to speak of
            > book by book usage (did Jesus know the Greek Isaiah scroll, for
            > example), or in many instances, of the use of excerpts. The "playing
            > field" was quite different from what is often assumed.
            >
            > Bob Kraft, emeritus UPenn
            >
            > On 7/31/2012 8:55 PM, Ken Penner wrote:
            > > Yes, the two questions are separate: (1) whether Jesus read the
            > scriptures in Greek or Hebrew, and (2) whether the Gospel writers
            > quoted from the Greek or Hebrew.
            > > Regarding the question whether the Gospels quote from the Greek or
            > Hebrew, there are some detailed data at
            > http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spexecsum.htm
            > > The answer there (to question 2) is that that the Gospel writers'
            > quotes match the "Septuagint" more often than the Masoretic Text.
            > > The answer to question 1 is less empirical, but depends on what
            > languages Jesus would have used. We have evidence that he spoke
            > Aramaic and/or Hebrew, but the evidence that he spoke Greek at all is
            > flimsy (IMO).
            > >
            > >
            > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
            > > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
            > > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
            > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca> <mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
            > [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
            > Of abramkielsmeierjones
            > > Sent: July-31-12 6:17 PM
            > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > Subject: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The reading I'm doing is leading me to believe he did not (he spoke
            > > Aramaic, etc.). I began to think and write otherwise here
            > > <http://wp.me/p2muvc-5E> , but then posted updates to what I am now
            > > afraid was a wrong-headed claim: namely, that Jesus used the Septuagint.
            > >
            > > I'm reading R.T. France and about to read Steve Moyise on the subject.
            > > What I can see being concluded with certainty is that there are *some*
            > > Gospel texts where the words the Gospel writer has Jesus saying agree
            > > with the LXX against the MT (France lists a number of these)...
            > > certainly not all cases, but that it does happen. But is this a
            > > different thing than saying Jesus himself used the Septuagint?
            > >
            > > That's my thought, but any LXX vets on here that can offer me some
            > > suggestions or even further resources on the topic would be great. I'm
            > > new here, so my apologies if this has already been discussed on this
            > > forum.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
            > > ---------------------------
            > > Abram K-J
            > > Blog: Words on the Word <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/>
            > > Septuagint <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/> posts-to-date
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert Kraft
            I m afraid I read your original message too quickly -- I just want to correct one point from this otherwise helpful post. The Qumran LXX fragments are few and
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 1, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I'm afraid I read your original message too quickly --

              "I just want to correct one point from this otherwise helpful post. The Qumran LXX fragments are few and tiny: 7Q1, with Exodus 28:4-7, and 4Q119-122. Some of the conclusions drawn below may need to be adjusted accordingly."

              Since you identified 7QLXX Exodus explicitly, I didn't notice what was
              included in the 4Q listing (4 more fragments, Lev (2), Num, Deut).
              Sorry. I need to be more attentive.

              Bob

              On 8/1/2012 8:09 PM, Ken Penner wrote:
              > Bob, are you saying there are more Qumran LXX fragments than 7Q1 and 4Q119-122? I don’t see any at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak/earlylxx/jewishpap.html#jewishmss , although I see 1 Enoch and the Letter of Jeremiah, as well as copies from locations other than Qumran. What am I missing?
              > Ken
              >
              > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
              > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
              > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
              > kpenner@...
              >
              >
              >
              > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Kraft
              > Sent: August-01-12 7:19 PM
              > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
              >
              >
              >
              > For a collection of the earliest preserved Greek fragments, with links
              > to (some) images and (some) commentary, see
              > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html<http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak/earlylxx/jewishpap.html> --
              > this material is in need of some updating, but can provide a useful
              > starting point. By checking the list (see Quicklinks), you will note
              > that there is more from Qumran than Ken Penner noted, although certainly
              > not a flood. And perhaps of special interest is the fragment from the
              > "apocryphal" Letter of Jeremiah from cave 7, where most of the Greek
              > materials were found.
              >
              > Bob Kraft
              >
              > On 8/1/2012 11:55 AM, Abram Kielsmeier-Jones wrote:
              >> Bob, Ken, and others:
              >>
              >> Thanks for the replies and clarifications. Duly noted about
              >> anachronisms. What I should have said/asked was something about Jesus
              >> using a text that was closer to a Greek scroll available at the time
              >> vs. a Hebrew one. I often fall prey to what I'm sure is the common
              >> language student fallacy of thinking that by being able to work my way
              >> through the BHS, NA27, or Rahlfs' LXX, I now have access to the
              >> ever-elusive original. But of course that's not quite true. That's
              >> why, among other good reasons, so many folks fruitfully engage in
              >> textual criticism.
              >>
              >> If I wanted to further explore what Jesus had access to (in terms of
              >> Greek scrolls, whether Isaiah or some other), does anyone (Prof.
              >> Kraft?) have good recommendations on where to go?
              >>
              >> Thanks,
              >>
              >> Abram
              >>
              >> ________________________________
              >> From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...<mailto:kraft%40sas.upenn.edu> <mailto:kraft%40sas.upenn.edu>>
              >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 10:58 AM
              >> Subject: Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Just a reminder on such questions. There was no "the LXX" in our sense
              >> of "Bible" -- and no "MT" -- in the first century. It was a scroll
              >> society, and while collections of scrolls may have existed in some
              >> places, it is quite anachronistic to think of traveling individuals
              >> having all those scrolls along. More appropriate would be to speak of
              >> book by book usage (did Jesus know the Greek Isaiah scroll, for
              >> example), or in many instances, of the use of excerpts. The "playing
              >> field" was quite different from what is often assumed.
              >>
              >> Bob Kraft, emeritus UPenn
              >>
              >> On 7/31/2012 8:55 PM, Ken Penner wrote:
              >>> Yes, the two questions are separate: (1) whether Jesus read the
              >> scriptures in Greek or Hebrew, and (2) whether the Gospel writers
              >> quoted from the Greek or Hebrew.
              >>> Regarding the question whether the Gospels quote from the Greek or
              >> Hebrew, there are some detailed data at
              >> http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spexecsum.htm
              >>> The answer there (to question 2) is that that the Gospel writers'
              >> quotes match the "Septuagint" more often than the Masoretic Text.
              >>> The answer to question 1 is less empirical, but depends on what
              >> languages Jesus would have used. We have evidence that he spoke
              >> Aramaic and/or Hebrew, but the evidence that he spoke Greek at all is
              >> flimsy (IMO).
              >>>
              >>> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
              >>> Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
              >>> http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
              >>> kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca> <mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
              >> Of abramkielsmeierjones
              >>> Sent: July-31-12 6:17 PM
              >>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
              >>> Subject: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> The reading I'm doing is leading me to believe he did not (he spoke
              >>> Aramaic, etc.). I began to think and write otherwise here
              >>> <http://wp.me/p2muvc-5E> , but then posted updates to what I am now
              >>> afraid was a wrong-headed claim: namely, that Jesus used the Septuagint.
              >>>
              >>> I'm reading R.T. France and about to read Steve Moyise on the subject.
              >>> What I can see being concluded with certainty is that there are *some*
              >>> Gospel texts where the words the Gospel writer has Jesus saying agree
              >>> with the LXX against the MT (France lists a number of these)...
              >>> certainly not all cases, but that it does happen. But is this a
              >>> different thing than saying Jesus himself used the Septuagint?
              >>>
              >>> That's my thought, but any LXX vets on here that can offer me some
              >>> suggestions or even further resources on the topic would be great. I'm
              >>> new here, so my apologies if this has already been discussed on this
              >>> forum.
              >>>
              >>> Thanks,
              >>>
              >>> Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
              >>> ---------------------------
              >>> Abram K-J
              >>> Blog: Words on the Word <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/>
              >>> Septuagint <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/> posts-to-date
              >>>
              >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> ------------------------------------
              >>>
              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Timothy Beach
              By way of introduction, I signed on to this list a few months ago as a learner, not a scholar. Thanks you for bring up this topic which is particularly
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 1, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                By way of introduction, I signed on to this list a few months ago as a
                learner, not a scholar. Thanks you for bring up this topic which is
                particularly interesting to me. According to what I've read online
                pertaining to the rise of Aramaic and the decline of Hebrew as ancient Jews
                spoken tongue, at the time of Jesus, Aramaic was dominant through out most
                of Palestine except in the vicinity of Jerusalem where scholars still
                insisted on speak Hebrew. In region of Jerusalem a lot of people were
                reportedly bilingual. However, I've never heard the LXX being used in
                Jerusalem and would love to get a hold of references for this if anyone has
                them available to pass along. Would also appreciate receiving feedback on
                the spoken Hebrew versus Aramaic issue in first century Palestine, and
                particularly in Judea. Thank you.

                Timothy Beach
                Taichung, Taiwan

                On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Reader Arsenios George Blaisdell <
                maqhth@...> wrote:

                >
                > We can, one might imagine, safely conclude that He did NOT use the
                > Masoretic Text...
                >
                > The LXX was in wide usage among the Jews, especially in the Diaspora, but
                > also in Jerusalem then...
                >
                > The ancient Hebraic Text's 1st century existence and usage is pretty much
                > guesswork at this point...
                >
                > Reader Arsenios [George] Blaisdell
                >
                > Ellensburg, WA
                >
                >
                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > From: abramkielsmeierjones@...
                > Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 21:17:23 +0000
                > Subject: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The reading I'm doing is leading me to believe he did not (he spoke
                >
                > Aramaic, etc.). I began to think and write otherwise here
                >
                > <http://wp.me/p2muvc-5E> , but then posted updates to what I am now
                >
                > afraid was a wrong-headed claim: namely, that Jesus used the Septuagint.
                >
                >
                >
                > I'm reading R.T. France and about to read Steve Moyise on the subject.
                >
                > What I can see being concluded with certainty is that there are *some*
                >
                > Gospel texts where the words the Gospel writer has Jesus saying agree
                >
                > with the LXX against the MT (France lists a number of these)...
                >
                > certainly not all cases, but that it does happen. But is this a
                >
                > different thing than saying Jesus himself used the Septuagint?
                >
                >
                >
                > That's my thought, but any LXX vets on here that can offer me some
                >
                > suggestions or even further resources on the topic would be great. I'm
                >
                > new here, so my apologies if this has already been discussed on this
                >
                > forum.
                >
                >
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                >
                >
                > Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
                >
                > ---------------------------
                >
                > Abram K-J
                >
                > Blog: Words on the Word <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/>
                >
                > Septuagint <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/> posts-to-date
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Drew Longacre
                Chris gives a good summary of the issues. A couple of notes about the Qumran evidence are in order, however.   1) As mentioned before, the actual Greek
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 2, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Chris gives a good summary of the issues. A couple of notes about the Qumran evidence are in order, however.
                   
                  1) As mentioned before, the actual Greek manuscript evidence is relatively sparse at Qumran, with much of it coming from cave 7. It is perhaps significant that cave 7 provides so much of the Greek evidence, but not Hebrew/Aramaic evidence. The cave seems to present some kind of special circumstance, and is not reflective of the Qumran finds as a whole.
                   
                  2) New literary compositions from the Qumran community are invariably composed in Hebrew or Aramaic, rather than Greek.
                   
                  3) The Qumran community was a well-educated priestly group, so it would not be surprising if their linguistic capabilities and interests went beyond those of your average person.
                   
                  -Drew Longacre


                  ________________________________
                  From: C L <sigebryht@...>
                  To: "lxx@yahoogroups.com" <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 7:29 PM
                  Subject: [lxx] Re: Did Jesus use the Septuagint?



                   

                  Dear Abram (et al.),

                  As I read some of the preliminary responses to your question here, it seems helpful to distinguish between the text(s) Jesus used and the texts employed by the Evangelists.

                  Clearly, much work has already been done on what texts the gospel writers used. That question has already been addressed here, in any case, so I won't address it except to note that I think that the New Testament writers' use of the Hebrew Scriptures reflect the milieu of their time: The bulk of their citations align with the Old Greek (except Daniel, which seems to follow Theodotion); a significant number align with what may be called a Proto-Masoretic text type; and a relatively small fraction of all citations in the Old Testament (~15%, if memory serves) appear to align with textual witnesses that are neither Proto-Masoretic nor Old Greek/Septuagint in nature.

                  Notably, the manuscripts found at Qumran show a similar distribution of texts that align with Old Greek/Septuagint, Proto-Masoretic, and Other. (Discounting Pesher texts and other texts that seem peculiar to the Qumran community).

                  Qumran, though it probably had no direct contact with Jesus, provides a snapshot of the textual witnesses to the Hebrew Scriptures in circulation roughly during the time of Jesus. Furthermore, I believe it is telling that this highly devout community did not restrict itself to Hebrew or Aramaic, but also made extensive use of Greek texts. This is particularly noteworthy if we consider that the Qumran community was anti-Hellenist. That is, as I understand it, the Qumran community was very critical of the pervasive Greek influence in Jerusalem; yet this did not prevent them from including extensive copies of the Scriptures in Greek. This suggests that use of the Greek Scriptures was so pervasive that it infiltrated even among those who had an aversion to other things Greek.

                  If the Greek Scriptures were that pervasive even in an isolated community, then I think a good case could be made that Jesus - who was not isolated and spent much of his ministry in areas (ie, the Galilee, the Pentapolis, etc.) where Greek was likely as prevalent as Aramaic - most likely used the Greek Scriptures when appropriate.

                  (By the same token, the Bar-Kokhba texts also attest to wide use of Greek among the rebels who fought to depose Roman rule. Again, this is a group that I might expect to eschew the use of Greek on the basis of patriotism or piety [not that they would have distinguished patriotism from piety, necessarily]. However, they have no problem using Greek, as well as Aramaic and even Hebrew). I don't have references for Bar-Kokhba, but they should be easy to track down.

                  There is probably an argument to be made from the Evangelists, as well: If the gospel writers were disciples of Jesus (either directly or indirectly), and those disciples used the Old Greek/Septuagint extensively, is it not reasonable to posit that their use of the Scripture mimics that of their teacher?

                  Of course, it is possible that Jesus read his Scriptures in Hebrew and Aramaic, and his disciples BROKE with that practice by preferring the Greek. However, is such a break LIKELY? And is it likely for that switch in preference to be roughly the same for all the Evangelists/New Testament writers?

                  On the other hand, if Jesus had shown a strong preference for citing the Scriptures in Hebrew or Aramaic during his ministry, would we not expect the disciples to mimic their master by reflecting the same preference?

                  I'm not convinced that this is a strong argument that Jesus used the Old Greek/Septuagint. However, I do think that it is one argument among others that may merit attention.

                  For details on the Greek texts at Qumran, see

                  The text-critical use of the Septuagint in biblical research By: Tov, Emanuel. Jerusalem: Simor Ltd, 1997 (2d ed ). Publication Type: Book (Start with this book). 

                  Textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible By: Tov, Emanuel. Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress, 2001 (2nd revised ed ). PublicationType: Book   

                  You may also find these informative:

                  Hebrew Bible, Greek Bible, and Qumran: collected essays By: Tov, Emanuel. Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2008 . Publication Type: Book   

                  The significance of the texts from the Judean Desert for the history of the text of the Hebrew Bible : a new synthesis. By: Tov, Emanuel. Source: Qumran between the Old and New Testaments, p 277-309.Sheffield, Eng : Sheffield Academic Pr, 1998 Publication Type: Essay   

                  On the question of whether Jesus SPOKE or taught in Greek, you might want to start with these:

                  Did Jesus Ever Teach in Greek. By: Porter, Stanley E.. Source: Tyndale Bulletin, 44 no 2 N 1993, p 199-235. Publication Type: Article   

                  Jesus spoke Greek By: Christodoulou, Christopher. Source: Patristic and Byzantine Review, 23 no 1-3 2005, p 117-129. Publication
                  Type: Article   

                  Jesus and the use of Greek: a response to Maurice Casey By: Porter, Stanley E.. Source: Bulletin for Biblical Research, 10 no 1
                  2000, p 71-87. Publication Type: Article   

                  Finally, I have to mention Barthelemy, Studies in the Text of the Old Testament (Eisenbrauns, 2012). The opening discussion on the transmission of the Hebrew Scriptures is very helpful, even though it does not deal with the Greek directly at that point. (I'm still reading this book, so I'm not sure how much Barthelemy gets into that later).

                  I wish you success in your studies. Please write back to share your conclusions.

                  Sincerely,

                  Chris Lovelace,
                  M.Div., Th.M. (Candidate)

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ken Penner
                  On the Hebrew vs. Aramaic question, at a popular level, you could start with Doug Hamp s book, at http://www.douglashamp.com/discovering-the-language-of-jesus/
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 2, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On the Hebrew vs. Aramaic question, at a popular level, you could start with Doug Hamp's book, at http://www.douglashamp.com/discovering-the-language-of-jesus/ and follow up with the articles mentioned in his notes and bibliography.
                    I hope this helps,
                    Ken

                    Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                    Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                    http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                    St. Francis Xavier University
                    kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner@...>




                    From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Timothy Beach
                    Sent: August-01-12 11:42 PM
                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?



                    By way of introduction, I signed on to this list a few months ago as a
                    learner, not a scholar. Thanks you for bring up this topic which is
                    particularly interesting to me. According to what I've read online
                    pertaining to the rise of Aramaic and the decline of Hebrew as ancient Jews
                    spoken tongue, at the time of Jesus, Aramaic was dominant through out most
                    of Palestine except in the vicinity of Jerusalem where scholars still
                    insisted on speak Hebrew. In region of Jerusalem a lot of people were
                    reportedly bilingual. However, I've never heard the LXX being used in
                    Jerusalem and would love to get a hold of references for this if anyone has
                    them available to pass along. Would also appreciate receiving feedback on
                    the spoken Hebrew versus Aramaic issue in first century Palestine, and
                    particularly in Judea. Thank you.

                    Timothy Beach
                    Taichung, Taiwan

                    On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Reader Arsenios George Blaisdell <
                    maqhth@...<mailto:maqhth%40hotmail.com>> wrote:

                    >
                    > We can, one might imagine, safely conclude that He did NOT use the
                    > Masoretic Text...
                    >
                    > The LXX was in wide usage among the Jews, especially in the Diaspora, but
                    > also in Jerusalem then...
                    >
                    > The ancient Hebraic Text's 1st century existence and usage is pretty much
                    > guesswork at this point...
                    >
                    > Reader Arsenios [George] Blaisdell
                    >
                    > Ellensburg, WA
                    >
                    >
                    > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > From: abramkielsmeierjones@...<mailto:abramkielsmeierjones%40yahoo.com>
                    > Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 21:17:23 +0000
                    > Subject: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The reading I'm doing is leading me to believe he did not (he spoke
                    >
                    > Aramaic, etc.). I began to think and write otherwise here
                    >
                    > <http://wp.me/p2muvc-5E> , but then posted updates to what I am now
                    >
                    > afraid was a wrong-headed claim: namely, that Jesus used the Septuagint.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm reading R.T. France and about to read Steve Moyise on the subject.
                    >
                    > What I can see being concluded with certainty is that there are *some*
                    >
                    > Gospel texts where the words the Gospel writer has Jesus saying agree
                    >
                    > with the LXX against the MT (France lists a number of these)...
                    >
                    > certainly not all cases, but that it does happen. But is this a
                    >
                    > different thing than saying Jesus himself used the Septuagint?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > That's my thought, but any LXX vets on here that can offer me some
                    >
                    > suggestions or even further resources on the topic would be great. I'm
                    >
                    > new here, so my apologies if this has already been discussed on this
                    >
                    > forum.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
                    >
                    > ---------------------------
                    >
                    > Abram K-J
                    >
                    > Blog: Words on the Word <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/>
                    >
                    > Septuagint <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/> posts-to-date
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sean Rhoades
                    Hi Abram     I wonder what Jesus read from in the account of Luke 4.16-22? It might depend on what language Luke was more familiar with, and upon his
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 2, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Abram
                          I wonder what Jesus read from in the account of Luke 4.16-22? It might depend on what language Luke was more familiar with, and upon his education. In other words, if Luke was more familiar with greek, one might expect him to quote from the LXX, even though Jesus used something else.
                       

                      Sean



                      ________________________________
                      From: abramkielsmeierjones <abramkielsmeierjones@...>
                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:17 PM
                      Subject: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?


                       
                      The reading I'm doing is leading me to believe he did not (he spoke
                      Aramaic, etc.). I began to think and write otherwise here
                      <http://wp.me/p2muvc-5E> , but then posted updates to what I am now
                      afraid was a wrong-headed claim: namely, that Jesus used the Septuagint.

                      I'm reading R.T. France and about to read Steve Moyise on the subject.
                      What I can see being concluded with certainty is that there are *some*
                      Gospel texts where the words the Gospel writer has Jesus saying agree
                      with the LXX against the MT (France lists a number of these)...
                      certainly not all cases, but that it does happen. But is this a
                      different thing than saying Jesus himself used the Septuagint?

                      That's my thought, but any LXX vets on here that can offer me some
                      suggestions or even further resources on the topic would be great. I'm
                      new here, so my apologies if this has already been discussed on this
                      forum.

                      Thanks,

                      Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
                      ---------------------------
                      Abram K-J
                      Blog: Words on the Word <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/>
                      Septuagint <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/> posts-to-date

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ken Penner
                      For a fuller bibliography on the use of Hebrew and Aramaic in the first century, see
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 2, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        For a fuller bibliography on the use of Hebrew and Aramaic in the first century, see https://www.zotero.org/groups/new_testament_greek/items/collectionKey/AMF37293
                        Ken


                        From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                        Sent: August-02-12 6:47 AM
                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?



                        On the Hebrew vs. Aramaic question, at a popular level, you could start with Doug Hamp's book, at http://www.douglashamp.com/discovering-the-language-of-jesus/ and follow up with the articles mentioned in his notes and bibliography.
                        I hope this helps,
                        Ken

                        Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                        Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                        http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                        St. Francis Xavier University
                        kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>

                        From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Timothy Beach
                        Sent: August-01-12 11:42 PM
                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?

                        By way of introduction, I signed on to this list a few months ago as a
                        learner, not a scholar. Thanks you for bring up this topic which is
                        particularly interesting to me. According to what I've read online
                        pertaining to the rise of Aramaic and the decline of Hebrew as ancient Jews
                        spoken tongue, at the time of Jesus, Aramaic was dominant through out most
                        of Palestine except in the vicinity of Jerusalem where scholars still
                        insisted on speak Hebrew. In region of Jerusalem a lot of people were
                        reportedly bilingual. However, I've never heard the LXX being used in
                        Jerusalem and would love to get a hold of references for this if anyone has
                        them available to pass along. Would also appreciate receiving feedback on
                        the spoken Hebrew versus Aramaic issue in first century Palestine, and
                        particularly in Judea. Thank you.

                        Timothy Beach
                        Taichung, Taiwan

                        On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Reader Arsenios George Blaisdell <
                        maqhth@...<mailto:maqhth%40hotmail.com><mailto:maqhth%40hotmail.com>> wrote:

                        >
                        > We can, one might imagine, safely conclude that He did NOT use the
                        > Masoretic Text...
                        >
                        > The LXX was in wide usage among the Jews, especially in the Diaspora, but
                        > also in Jerusalem then...
                        >
                        > The ancient Hebraic Text's 1st century existence and usage is pretty much
                        > guesswork at this point...
                        >
                        > Reader Arsenios [George] Blaisdell
                        >
                        > Ellensburg, WA
                        >
                        >
                        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > From: abramkielsmeierjones@...<mailto:abramkielsmeierjones%40yahoo.com><mailto:abramkielsmeierjones%40yahoo.com>
                        > Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 21:17:23 +0000
                        > Subject: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The reading I'm doing is leading me to believe he did not (he spoke
                        >
                        > Aramaic, etc.). I began to think and write otherwise here
                        >
                        > <http://wp.me/p2muvc-5E> , but then posted updates to what I am now
                        >
                        > afraid was a wrong-headed claim: namely, that Jesus used the Septuagint.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I'm reading R.T. France and about to read Steve Moyise on the subject.
                        >
                        > What I can see being concluded with certainty is that there are *some*
                        >
                        > Gospel texts where the words the Gospel writer has Jesus saying agree
                        >
                        > with the LXX against the MT (France lists a number of these)...
                        >
                        > certainly not all cases, but that it does happen. But is this a
                        >
                        > different thing than saying Jesus himself used the Septuagint?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > That's my thought, but any LXX vets on here that can offer me some
                        >
                        > suggestions or even further resources on the topic would be great. I'm
                        >
                        > new here, so my apologies if this has already been discussed on this
                        >
                        > forum.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
                        >
                        > ---------------------------
                        >
                        > Abram K-J
                        >
                        > Blog: Words on the Word <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/>
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                      • C L
                        Drs. Penner, Kraft, et al. Please let me say that it is an honor to interact with you on this forum. I admire your work very much, Dr. Kraft. Dr. Penner, I
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 2, 2012
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                          Drs. Penner, Kraft, et al.

                          Please let me say that it is an honor to interact with you on this forum. I admire your work very much, Dr. Kraft.

                          Dr. Penner, I appreciate your site, and will be keeping an eye out for your written work in my continuing studies.


                          Thank you for the clarifications on the Qumran materials.


                          It would seem that my previous comments should be amended to reflect that the community did not possess an abundance of Greek scrolls.
                          The general point still apparently obtains, however, that the anti-Hellenistic Qumran community made use of Greek texts.
                          Therefore, the presence of Greek mss. there supports the claim that such texts were widely used in general and probably available to Jesus.

                          I have not had time to look at the link with the Qumran materials.

                          However, I am curious: Does this include the Nahal Hever materials? I'm thinking specifically of the Minor Prophets scroll (8HevXIIgr), which Barthelemy and Tov described in detail in their book on the Greek Dodekapropheton.
                          Though technical distinction should probably be made between Nahal Hever and Khirbet Qumran, couldn't we consider them together for the purposes of establishing.supporting the notion that Septuagintal mss. were available in Palestine during the time of Jesus?

                          Sincerely,

                          Chris Lovelace, M.Div., Th.M (Candidate)
                          Mar del Plata, Argentina

                          PS - I would be very interested in seeing the 8HevXIIgr materials, if anyone knows where I can find them online. They may have some slight bearing on my thesis.

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                        • Yeho natan
                          Hi LXX ers! Various thoughts and comments regarding recent posts: A) is a helper in certain places below to know when I begin commenting. 1)
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 5, 2012
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                            Hi LXX'ers!









                            Various thoughts and comments regarding recent posts: "A)" is a helper in certain places below to know when I begin commenting.
                            1) Messiah used the Septuagint? A) No Scriptural evidence.
                            2) Messiah spoke Aramaic? A) No Scriptural evidence.
                            3) Regarding: "Some [Mt. thru Jn.] texts have [Messiah] seemingly quoting from the LXX." A) Yeah, and the KJV has at Acts 12:4 the abominable term "easter" instead of the correct term Pesach. Men can alter the Word in any way they want to. They do it today and they did it back then(Jer. 8:8). They do it at their own peril(Dt. 4:2, Prov. 30:6), but they still do it. One of the greatest fallacies going is that the earliest known Mt. thru Rev. Greek mss. represent the exact Words of Messiah or even the exact Words penned by the original authors. Those who copied and/or translated the earliest Greek manuscripts more than likely had access to Septuagint manuscripts for referencing purposes when translating OT quotes. At least, noting Septuagint-derived quotes in the earliest Greek NT manuscripts does not prove Messiah quoted from there.
                            I liked fellow heretic Joe Dan Boyd's postulate that Messiah actually used, spoke from, and taught from the Scriptures in their originally-breathed, true autograph form. He could actually do that today in many synagogues. Of course, I will take into account that my Greek Messiah with the Greek/Norman name would be so rebellious as to ignore what the Scriptures say about Elohim preserving His Words from this generation forever(Ps. 12:6-7). I'm sure Messiah is about Hellenizing everything considering that He is given the throne of His father D'ud/David and reigns over the house of Ya'akob forever(Lk. 1:31-33).
                            True Yisrael has a Greek King Who leads His people to a Greek legitimacy for His Father's Word and is OK with bringing His Father's true name(yod-hey-uau-hey) to shoah(ruin, destruction, void, naught) counter to the 3rd Command and supports blotting it out with words from the goyim/gentiles like kurios, lord, god, or any of the baals! Right? Messiah is all about encouraging us to just "coexist" and accept full translations into Greek or English or whatever and just forget Hs Father's name(Jer. 23:26-27, Jn. 17:6) and many other key facts.
                            4) Even if you could prove that the LXX was "in wide usage among 'the Jews'"..."also in Yerushalayim"...that wouldn't prove that Messiah had anything to do with it(more probably the contrary considering how taken He was with the popular opinion around those parts and in those days and among the Yehudim) nor that that was what was read in the hekal. I'm still of the camp that they'd sooner be cleaning pig's blood out of the Set-apart Place than have a Greek translation of the Torah, Nebiim, and Ketubim being read from there. Check the last sentence of Acts 21:28.
                            5) Dr. Penner makes a great point that "support for Messiah's speaking of Greek is flimsy." I would add that I know of not one reference in Gen. thru Rev. to His speaking of Greek. Of all the places He might have spoken Greek(or even Aramaic) might have been to Sha'ul/Paul on his way to Dammeseq(Acts 26:14-15), but it says He spoke in Hebrais. Now I'm just gonna play dumb here...Hebrais/Ebrais means Hebrew and Hebraisti/Ebraisti means "in Hebrew" and Hebrais in its Greek form is a transliteration of Ibrit(which of course is found in the OT), until proven otherwise. And call me crazy but I posit that Aramit(word used in the OT) and Syristi(a word used by Josephus) are more likely to be synonymous with each other than they are with anything else. You make a big assumption if you claim that Paul made his defense before the people of Yerushalayim not in Ibrit but rather in Syristi or in Aramais/Aramaisti or something(Acts 21:40 to 21:2). Also note in Acts 26:14-15 Messiah spoke His name in Hebrais. I'll follow His example on that one, for the only name given among men by which we need to be saved.
                            6) Robert Kraft says "the playing field was quite different from what is often assumed." I just wrote that because I thought it was worth repeating.
                            7) Regarding CL's comments I would add that there is no evidence that Mt., Mk., Lk., or Jn. used Greek translations extensively or at all, nor that they mimicked Messiah in this activity. Is it not more reasonable to expect that Messiah's use of the Scriptures mimics(rather, is identical to) His Teacher's: YHUH Elohim, the qadosh One of Yisrael? There's no evidence that Messiah used any part of the Septuagint: there's not even a suggestion in the Word that He did such a thing. As if the "Word come in the flesh" had to consult Greek scroll bearers on anything.
                            8) Regarding "I wonder what [YHUSh(U)A] read from in the account of Lk. 4:16-22." A) No doubt in that congregation in little Natsarit of Galil, the Son of D'ud did not read to the Yisralits from Greek scrolls(even using kurios instead of His Father's true name)! If He blotted out the name He came in(Jn. 5:43), wouldn't you be a little suspicious? "Hoshia-na! Baruk haba b'shem YHUH(Ps. 118:26, Mk. 11:9)! Blessed is the coming Reign of our father D'ud--in the name of YHUH(Mk. 11:10, Lk. 1:32-33)! Has D'ud then gone Greek? May it never be!
                            9) 2%...that's about how much KJV I have in my library. I'd better get rid of it though because when I die they'll claim I made extensive use of it!
                            Blessings all! Yehonatan Note: For the Scriptural references above I used the most identifiable names of the Books of Scripture for ease of recognition, including OT and NT which are merely traditional.



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                          • C L
                            Dear Yeho natan, Thank you for your response. At first, I wasn t sure if I should reply. The tone of your letter seems needlessly combative. Indeed, it feels
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 6, 2012
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                              Dear Yeho natan,

                              Thank you for your response. At first, I wasn't sure if I should reply. The tone of your letter seems needlessly combative. Indeed, it feels like more of an attack than part of a dialogue.
                              I mention this only to let you know how these comments come across. Such a tone is neither necessary nor appropriate in this forum. I trust that your use of such a tone was unintentional.

                              Regarding your points:

                              #1 The entire discussion, as I understand it, is about the PROBABILITY that Jesus would have or could have used the Septuagint. The Scriptural evidence available is that the Gospel writers did use the Septuagint when citing some of the words of Jesus. It's not explicitly clear from the text whether what the Evangelists record Jesus citing the LXX/Old Greek, or whether the presence of Old Greek citations comes from the Evangelists as they record Christ's words.

                              #2 There certainly is Scriptural support that Jesus spoke Aramaic. Jesus is recorded as uttering specific Aramaic phrases or words in Mark 5:41, Mark 7:34, Mark 14:36, Matthew 5:22, Matthe 6:24, Matthew 27:46 (Mark 15:34).

                              #7: The gospels most often cite the Old Testament from the Old Greek/Septuagint, as evidenced by comparing their citations against the Greek text. A quick way to see examples of this is to note the "Septuagint" siglum in the margins of Nestle-Aland27 in the Gospels to see some of the places where the citations align with Septuagint witnesses. Occasionally, the marginal notes are in error or are unclear, but they are usually correct (as you can see yourself).

                              Finally, my point about Qumran is simply one of AVAILABILITY: That is, Qumran demonstrates that the Septuagint was available even in such a remote area. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the Septuagint was also available to Jesus, so he could have used it if he wanted to do so.
                              The example you give of KJV texts in your own library supports my point here: You are aware of the text and have it available if you choose to cite it.

                              Please note that, following Dr. Penner's comments about the low percentage of Greek texts, I immediately amended my comments appropriately at that time. Therefore, there is no need to claim that I am making a case for "extensive" use of Greek materials at Qumran.

                              I admire your zeal, sir.

                              May God bless your further study.

                              Sincerely,

                              Chris Lovelace,
                              M.Div., Th.M. (Candidate)


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                            • Yeho natan
                              Hi Chris, Thanks for your heartfelt response. Tone is hard to gauge through text. I merely mean to be separate from all philosophy, dogma, assumption, and
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 6, 2012
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                                Hi Chris,

                                Thanks for your heartfelt response. Tone is hard to gauge through text. I merely mean to be separate from all philosophy, dogma, assumption, and false tradition. They offer nothing of a lasting nature. Hey, I didn't fashion cords and chase anyone out of the hekal. I didn't call anyone pit of vipers or brood of adders. I didn't say anybody's father was shatan. But, I guess if I am conforming to the likeness of Messiah those things might be open to me in certain situations. Distinguishing between combativeness and qinah for my Father's house can be difficult. I certainly didn't mean to single anyone out for any particular purpose but just bring a view that sadly appears to be so non-existent these days with the massive influence of Greco-Roman-Lutheran-English-American religion that is hard to see as other than a merchant system resembling a nation in its own right with indoctrination, taxation, and merchant heads ruling from the top. It appears to resemble nothing that Messiah engendered.

                                Regarding your points:

                                #1 If the entire discussion is about "the PROBABILITY of this or the PROBABILITY of that" then it has totally lost its appeal to me. Respectfully I will hold my tongue, so to speak, on those topics. Regarding your second sentence, when I say Scriptural evidence I mean evidence related to content. Example: "See Spot run." OK, there's an imperative there, Spot I believe is a dog, and we're kinda being guided towards seeing that canine ambulate. But here's the problem: they forgot to write on the book I have which edition it was, so I can't really be sure that it's the first edition. The first edition may have actually said "Vea Spotito correr." I JUST DON"T KNOW. So I can't just assume that it was originally written in English and that others through the years didn't make changes for all the myriad reasons men change things. At least I can't. The points I made about Messiah's speaking of Greek especially in relation to OT quotes and the Father's true name still stand. But I will turn immediately with REAL proof. I'm not expecting any.

                                #2 I think in the legal world they would call that circumstantial evidence. Do please realize that I'm not just messing with you on any of these things: I'm just trying to be real and separate fact from fiction because men intentionally or unintentionally leave chicken scratches on the history of the world and certainly on the course that Scripture has taken. Of course I realized that the "no Scriptural evidence for Messiah's speaking of Aramaic" would be one of the most contentious things that I wrote. And these verses have always intrigued me because there's so much else that doesn't come through as Aramaic. Can't put my finger on it. Somebody later made some choices here and there or used available manuscripts on organizing the early Greek NT manuscripts or had an agenda? We're all familiar with that among handlers of the Word. That some Aramaic texts were floating around and words got incorporated wouldn't be a shocker. I have some Aramaic texts myself. In Mark 14:36 He speaks to YHUH Elohim not in the lashon h'qodesh but in Aramaic? Huh? It makes me want to pick up snakes and drink a deadly drink. From Lk. 23:43 are we to assume that Luqas is telling us that Messiah also spoke Persian? "Paradeisos" would be an interesting choice of words to throw into His dialogue since just about any thief on the street even today would recognize the term "gan eden" if you pronounced it as though it were English and even more so if you spliced an "rde" into gan. And yes, a study of gan eden and paradeisos from the beginning to the end of Scripture is quite revealing. The seeming quote by Messiah of the very-Hebrew-in-origin Psalm 22:1 is baffling. Why would there actually be some times when Messiah is speaking/praying to the Most High El in Aramaic?, and other times in Greek?? I've found it very hard to draw any end-of-discussion conclusions from the verses you've cited. Certainly this does not add up to believing that the word Hebrais actually means Aramaic, and I cannot conclude from this information that Messiah spoke Aramaic, though I believe He had the power to do anything He wanted to, even cause a Septuagint to appear in front of Him in order to consult it. I just can't prove that it actually happened and wouldn't understand why He'd do it.

                                #7 I want you to know that that kind of information does intrigue me or I wouldn't be here and I look for anything valuable in what I hear, but what I hear right here is your using of language like."the 'gospels' most often cite the OT from the Old Greek... " rather than "early Greek manuscripts most often cite..." It's like leading the witness. It's that the information can be interesting but the conclusions that are drawn: be wary! Just because a text is received doesn't mean it's free of corruption. Need examples?

                                I do believe you are a respectable group of folks, and NO disrespect is ever meant by me. I actually feel challenged by you all. That's a great thing! Chris, I don't question your genuine seeking of the truth. We need more fire like you display, and full respect is definitely the way it will be here, for my part.

                                Blessings! Yehonatan

                                P.S. My point was that I have a KJV but I wouldn't choose to cite it, except when showing where it's in err.





                                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                From: sigebryht@...
                                Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 13:21:50 -0700
                                Subject: [lxx] Re: Did Jesus use the Septuagint?


























                                Dear Yeho natan,



                                Thank you for your response. At first, I wasn't sure if I should reply. The tone of your letter seems needlessly combative. Indeed, it feels like more of an attack than part of a dialogue.

                                I mention this only to let you know how these comments come across. Such a tone is neither necessary nor appropriate in this forum. I trust that your use of such a tone was unintentional.



                                Regarding your points:



                                #1 The entire discussion, as I understand it, is about the PROBABILITY that Jesus would have or could have used the Septuagint. The Scriptural evidence available is that the Gospel writers did use the Septuagint when citing some of the words of Jesus. It's not explicitly clear from the text whether what the Evangelists record Jesus citing the LXX/Old Greek, or whether the presence of Old Greek citations comes from the Evangelists as they record Christ's words.



                                #2 There certainly is Scriptural support that Jesus spoke Aramaic. Jesus is recorded as uttering specific Aramaic phrases or words in Mark 5:41, Mark 7:34, Mark 14:36, Matthew 5:22, Matthe 6:24, Matthew 27:46 (Mark 15:34).



                                #7: The gospels most often cite the Old Testament from the Old Greek/Septuagint, as evidenced by comparing their citations against the Greek text. A quick way to see examples of this is to note the "Septuagint" siglum in the margins of Nestle-Aland27 in the Gospels to see some of the places where the citations align with Septuagint witnesses. Occasionally, the marginal notes are in error or are unclear, but they are usually correct (as you can see yourself).



                                Finally, my point about Qumran is simply one of AVAILABILITY: That is, Qumran demonstrates that the Septuagint was available even in such a remote area. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the Septuagint was also available to Jesus, so he could have used it if he wanted to do so.

                                The example you give of KJV texts in your own library supports my point here: You are aware of the text and have it available if you choose to cite it.



                                Please note that, following Dr. Penner's comments about the low percentage of Greek texts, I immediately amended my comments appropriately at that time. Therefore, there is no need to claim that I am making a case for "extensive" use of Greek materials at Qumran.



                                I admire your zeal, sir.



                                May God bless your further study.



                                Sincerely,



                                Chris Lovelace,

                                M.Div., Th.M. (Candidate)



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















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                              • C L
                                Dear Yehonatan, Thank you for your response. Indeed, tone IS - as you say - often hard to gauge in e-mail. I m glad that no hostility was intended. In response
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 9, 2012
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                                  Dear Yehonatan,

                                  Thank you for your response. Indeed, tone IS - as you say - often hard to gauge in e-mail. I'm glad that no hostility was intended.

                                  In response to the point about probability:

                                  Yes, not only is this discussion about the probability of Jesus using the Septuagint (in the broad sense of the term), but this is normative for scholarship.
                                  To my knowledge, there is no direct statement that says "Jesus read from the Greek Isaiah scroll."
                                  So, we look at supporting evidence. The discussion IS about establishing probability in the absence of direct attestations. This is the norm in scholarship.
                                  Of course, since we are in a scholarly forum - not a court of law - the rigors of what is acceptable as evidence conform to the commonly accepted norms for textual criticism, not jurisprudence.

                                  In response to the example of "paradeisos" from Luke 23:43...
                                  There is quite a difference between several phrases or full sentences in Aramaic directly attributed to Jesus as his actual utterances, versus one isolated term of Persian origin in Luke that is well attested as a loan word in the Septuagint.

                                  The evidence we have available - specific quotes of the actual words of Jesus - support that he uttered sentences in Aramaic. We have no such sentences in Hebrew attested to Jesus. That is the actual evidence.

                                  So if we argue that Jesus spoke Hebrew, it has to be from indirect evidence or inference - which is in fact the kind of argumentation you present.


                                  On point #7, I don't understand your objection. Respectfully, I am not leading the witness there at all. When the extant Gospel mss. cite the Old Testament (actually, I prefer "First Testament"), those citations most often line up with Greek Septuagint translations that can be shown to predate the composition of the Gospels.


                                  I'm not sure what you are referring to by "textual corruption" here. (Certainly, this forum would not exist if "Received Texts" were not subject to corruption.) However, I don't follow what that has to with your argument.


                                  In any case, I wish you the best in your continuing studies.

                                  Sincerely,

                                  Chris

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                                • Yeho natan
                                  This discussion is veering into an area--namely, what language Jesus used primarily--of only marginal relevance to this list s focus, which is the Septuagint.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 5, 2012
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                                    This discussion is veering into an area--namely, what language Jesus used primarily--of only marginal relevance to this list's focus, which is the Septuagint. This thread and topic, subsequent to the final entry we're approving below, should be considered closed for purposes of this list. Further discussion about the everyday language Jesus used should be pursued off-list between members or on other lists to which the topic is more germane.

                                    Mods

                                    Final message in thread follows:

                                    Hi Chris,
                                    A moment of calm is always refreshing. Regarding Abram KJ's original question(as stated above in the subject), I wouldn't assume that he sought "the probability of that action taking place," and moreover, upon reading the text of his e-mail it appears that he seeks an establishment of unassailable facts to work from. What appears normative for scholarship among the Greco-Roman-based folks would not necessarily be normative for a qadosh Believer set-apart by the Ruach and following Messiah in truth out of all fleshliness/worldliness/teachings of men. We look at what was said in the full context rather than how men(at a superficial level) say they said it, and any disruption along the way is considered as such. A true one faced with the fact that "there is no direct statement that says '[Yehoshua] read from the Greek [Yeshayahu] scroll" would never be swayed by those scrambling after evidence that ultimately is weaker than the fact that Scripture never said it.
                                    Naturally I respect that this forum is probability-based rather than truth-based, and if I understand correctly I now realize that inherent in "textual criticism" is the assumption that, because a text is the earliest known text(not without some merit regarding some questions) or "the most favored text or collection of fragments," it establishes over-ridingly the precedent regarding the language that the writers wrote in or the language of the quotations that are attributed to those being quoted: essentially that "face value" is the over-riding principle. Accepting that "a full understanding of the context of Scripture would establish that Messiah spoke Greek almost always except for a few times where He inexplicably was moved to speak Aramaic" would not reflect the deeper understanding that a chosen one is blessed with, nor do I believe(at least I hope this is the case) that you are suggesting that one should establish their Belief on the notions that those in the "textual criticism" world arrive at or on the "conclusions" that those pursuing probabilities present.
                                    Regarding "paradeisos," it actually IS critically important to realize that we cannot establish that Messiah actually spoke Greek, Aramaic, or even derivatives of Persian other that by inherently limited archeological means(we find a fragment of bone and say it's a pterodactyl) and cannot establish that(or even why) Messiah might substitute for the words "gan eden" that essentially are used and understood to this day and is critical for understanding the continuum of the gan from the beginning of Creation all the way to its ultimate destination, the descended New Yerushalayim.
                                    And it is critically important for all on this site and elsewhere to understand the actual limitations as far as the applicability of these "probability conclusions" so they are not moved to accept as fact that which is merely in the "kicking the tires but haven't bought it" realm, in order to avoid any possibility of "leading one of His little ones astray."
                                    The interesting thing is that you put other "evidence" as more important than the fact that Scripture actually SAYS that Messiah spoke Hebrais. You call that "indirect evidence or inference?" Much less that Sha'ul spoke to all Yerushalayim in Hebrais. "Hmm...you're the Messiah prophecied from Yisrael's Torah? Sounds like you're from Athens." You clearly misrepresented the "kind of 'argumentation' [I] present."
                                    I appreciate by your final comment that this forum is about sorting through texts and determining where man's fingerprints are smudging things. I just think that based on your biases you are prevented from going far enough, so really it has everything to do with what I am supporting.
                                    It appears from your explanation of #7 that you really are basing your "belief" on archeological types of evidence rather than on internal Scriptural reality but I pray that really you are aware that you remain in the probability realm, although I can't see that it's even in the realm of probability, with all due respect.
                                    The most learned men in all Yisrael had documentation to the nth degree about the prophecies related to Messiah and they did not know the time of their visitation. Respectfully, could a similar dynamic be going on here?
                                    Blessings all! Yehonatan P.S. No hostility...just separation.


                                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: sigebryht@...
                                    Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 09:45:56 -0700
                                    Subject: [lxx] Re: Did Jesus use the Septuagint?


























                                    Dear Yehonatan,



                                    Thank you for your response. Indeed, tone IS - as you say - often hard to gauge in e-mail. I'm glad that no hostility was intended.



                                    In response to the point about probability:



                                    Yes, not only is this discussion about the probability of Jesus using the Septuagint (in the broad sense of the term), but this is normative for scholarship.

                                    To my knowledge, there is no direct statement that says "Jesus read from the Greek Isaiah scroll."

                                    So, we look at supporting evidence. The discussion IS about establishing probability in the absence of direct attestations. This is the norm in scholarship.

                                    Of course, since we are in a scholarly forum - not a court of law - the rigors of what is acceptable as evidence conform to the commonly accepted norms for textual criticism, not jurisprudence.



                                    In response to the example of "paradeisos" from Luke 23:43...

                                    There is quite a difference between several phrases or full sentences in Aramaic directly attributed to Jesus as his actual utterances, versus one isolated term of Persian origin in Luke that is well attested as a loan word in the Septuagint.



                                    The evidence we have available - specific quotes of the actual words of Jesus - support that he uttered sentences in Aramaic. We have no such sentences in Hebrew attested to Jesus. That is the actual evidence.



                                    So if we argue that Jesus spoke Hebrew, it has to be from indirect evidence or inference - which is in fact the kind of argumentation you present.



                                    On point #7, I don't understand your objection. Respectfully, I am not leading the witness there at all. When the extant Gospel mss. cite the Old Testament (actually, I prefer "First Testament"), those citations most often line up with Greek Septuagint translations that can be shown to predate the composition of the Gospels.



                                    I'm not sure what you are referring to by "textual corruption" here. (Certainly, this forum would not exist if "Received Texts" were not subject to corruption.) However, I don't follow what that has to with your argument.



                                    In any case, I wish you the best in your continuing studies.



                                    Sincerely,



                                    Chris



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