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RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

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  • andrew fincke
    Dear John: 1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 18, 2011
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      Dear John:
      1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only prefigured – “was like” - Him.
      2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in 1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support this view.
      3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some additions from 4QSam-b.
      1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
      1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place called ‘Faith of God.’
      1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
      1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
      1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the was heavy on Saul.
      2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the king lamented over Abner.
      2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic: Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [ ] to Benjamin.
      There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls. The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then “to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
      Andrew Fincke





      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      From: johnisaacmilton@...
      Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
      Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





      Hi Ken and Dick,

      It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
      sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
      Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
      the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
      Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
      a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
      accent)?

      Best,

      John

      On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Hi Ken,
      >
      > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
      > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
      > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
      > . .
      >
      > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
      > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
      > recension."
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Dick
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
      > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
      > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
      > Harvard University
      > Six Divinity Avenue
      > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
      > Tel: 617-495-4239
      > Fax: 617-496-8904
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > ________________________________________
      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
      > kpenner@...]
      > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
      > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
      >
      >
      >
      > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
      > επι?
      >
      > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
      > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
      > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      >
      > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
      >
      > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
      >
      > kpenner@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
      > Richard
      >
      > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Cc: Saley, Richard
      >
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Ken,
      >
      >
      >
      > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
      > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
      > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
      > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
      > Let me see if I can explain:
      >
      >
      >
      > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
      > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
      > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
      > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
      > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
      > Hebrew על as you have noted.
      >
      >
      >
      > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
      > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
      >
      >
      >
      > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
      > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
      > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
      > reflects Hebrew אל.
      >
      >
      >
      > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
      > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
      > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
      > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
      > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
      > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
      > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
      >
      >
      >
      > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
      > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
      > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
      > Lucianic tradition).
      >
      >
      >
      > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
      > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
      > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
      > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
      > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
      > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
      > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
      >
      >
      >
      > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
      >
      >
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Dick
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
      >
      > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
      >
      > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
      >
      > Harvard University
      >
      > Six Divinity Avenue
      >
      > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
      >
      > Tel: 617-495-4239
      >
      > Fax: 617-496-8904
      >
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________
      >
      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
      > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
      > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
      >
      > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks, Andy.
      >
      >
      >
      > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
      > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
      > come from, if not from על?
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
      > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
      > fincke
      >
      >
      >
      > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
      >
      >
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear Ken,
      >
      >
      >
      > Here it is!
      >
      >
      >
      > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
      > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
      > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
      > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
      > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
      > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
      > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
      > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
      > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
      > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
      > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
      > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
      >
      >
      >
      > Andrew Fincke
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >
      > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
      >
      >
      >
      > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
      >
      >
      >
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
      > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
      >
      >
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      >
      >
      >
      > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
      >
      >
      >
      > St. Francis Xavier University
      >
      >
      >
      > 902-867-2265
      >
      >
      >
      > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
      >
      >
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      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
      > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
      > Milton
      >
      >
      >
      > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
      >
      >
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >
      > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      > Hi Ken,
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > J
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
      > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
      > wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > **
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > > Dick wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
      >
      >
      >
      > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
      >
      >
      >
      > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
      > the
      >
      >
      >
      > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
      > me
      >
      >
      >
      > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
      > Hebrew
      >
      >
      >
      > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
      >
      >
      >
      > > typical translation of אל.
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > > Ken
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      >
      >
      >
      > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
      >
      >
      >
      > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
      >
      >
      >
      > > St. Francis Xavier University
      >
      >
      >
      > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
      > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
      > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
      >
      >
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    • andrew fincke
      Dear List! To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3 4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 6, 2011
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        Dear List!
        To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3 4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s the relevant quote from DJD 17, 235:
        “יעדתי V] חודעתי M; cf. S; העידתי G (διαμεμαρτυρημαι ). The reading of 4QSamb is original. Already Wellhausen, Bücher Samuelis, 121 had recognized that the original Hebrew text had some form of the root יעד. G reads διαμεμαρτυρημαι, the verb regularly used to render the Hip‘il of עוד in G. The reading of V, condixi, would appear to represent יעדתי, a putative Po‘el of ידע, which is clearly a corruption and may now be safely dropped.”
        4QSamb certainly agrees with the Septuagint against the masoretic text. But what is “faith of God” in the Septuagint? Here are the two versions:
        Masoretic text: “And the lads I made acquainted with the place of a certain unnamed individual.”
        Septuagint: “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God.’”
        Apart from the “certain unnamed individual” the problem of 1 Samuel 21:3 is the identity of the “lads,” who have no part in the story. David had just completed three days in hiding (1 Samuel 20:5, 11-12, 24, 35) with an emotional leave-taking of Jonathan (20:42), who advised him to run for his skin. The “companions” Ahimelek expected were remnants of a bygone era – the “men” who helped David win Mikal as bride by delivering a dowry of 100 Philistine foreskins to Saul (18:27). Once David achieved his marital object, he became companionless; and his flight from Mikal’s house (19:11 ff.) further isolated him from the outside world, contact with which only fleeting brushes with Jonathan (19:2) and Samuel (19:18) provided. In the eyes of the author of the Septuagint, David’s lads resembled the friends of the bridegroom who mourned the loss of their companion (Mark 2:19-20). The context of Mark 2 makes clear that these mourning friends of the groom represent the disciples, whose teacher they are destined to lose. The anonymous bridegroom-friends emerge in the following pericope as disciples plucking their way through a field ready to harvest (2:23), and the continuation at 2:25-28 identifies them with David's companions at Nov (“and he gave also to those with him” end of v. 26). “I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God’” refers the reader to the only other book of the Bible containing the phrase πίστις θεοῦ - i.e. Mark*, where the reader learns through a “testimony” (i.e. the parable of the mourning bridegroom-friends) the identity of the priest and the lads. Lacking the Mark gospel – which had not yet been published – the author of 4QSamb omitted the part about “faith of God,” which apparently entered the Gospel of Mark at an advanced stage of its development. “Certain unnamed individual” specifies in 4QSamb an amorphous body of unfixed testimonies to which אל vaguely refers. See J. Rendel Harris, Testimonies, Cambridge, 1916-1920.
        Andrew Fincke
        *Mark 11:22






        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        From: finckea@...
        Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:29 -0400
        Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







        Dear John:
        1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only prefigured – “was like” - Him.
        2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in 1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support this view.
        3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some additions from 4QSam-b.
        1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
        1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place called ‘Faith of God.’
        1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
        1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
        1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the was heavy on Saul.
        2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the king lamented over Abner.
        2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic: Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [ ] to Benjamin.
        There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls. The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then “to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
        Andrew Fincke





        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        From: johnisaacmilton@...
        Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
        Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





        Hi Ken and Dick,

        It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
        sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
        Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
        the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
        Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
        a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
        accent)?

        Best,

        John

        On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Hi Ken,
        >
        > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
        > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
        > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
        > . .
        >
        > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
        > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
        > recension."
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Dick
        > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
        > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
        > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
        > Harvard University
        > Six Divinity Avenue
        > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
        > Tel: 617-495-4239
        > Fax: 617-496-8904
        > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        > ________________________________________
        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
        > kpenner@...]
        > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
        >
        > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
        >
        >
        >
        > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
        > επι?
        >
        > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
        > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
        > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
        >
        >
        >
        > Ken
        >
        >
        >
        > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
        >
        > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
        >
        > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
        >
        > kpenner@...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
        > Richard
        >
        > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
        >
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Cc: Saley, Richard
        >
        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Ken,
        >
        >
        >
        > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
        > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
        > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
        > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
        > Let me see if I can explain:
        >
        >
        >
        > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
        > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
        > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
        > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
        > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
        > Hebrew על as you have noted.
        >
        >
        >
        > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
        > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
        >
        >
        >
        > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
        > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
        > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
        > reflects Hebrew אל.
        >
        >
        >
        > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
        > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
        > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
        > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
        > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
        > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
        > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
        >
        >
        >
        > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
        > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
        > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
        > Lucianic tradition).
        >
        >
        >
        > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
        > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
        > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
        > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
        > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
        > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
        > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
        >
        >
        >
        > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
        >
        >
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > Dick
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
        >
        > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
        >
        > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
        >
        > Harvard University
        >
        > Six Divinity Avenue
        >
        > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
        >
        > Tel: 617-495-4239
        >
        > Fax: 617-496-8904
        >
        > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________________
        >
        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
        > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
        > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
        >
        > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
        >
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks, Andy.
        >
        >
        >
        > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
        > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
        > come from, if not from על?
        >
        >
        >
        > Ken
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
        > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
        > fincke
        >
        >
        >
        > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
        >
        >
        >
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        >
        >
        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Ken,
        >
        >
        >
        > Here it is!
        >
        >
        >
        > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
        > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
        > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
        > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
        > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
        > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
        > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
        > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
        > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
        > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
        > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
        > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
        >
        >
        >
        > Andrew Fincke
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
        > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        >
        >
        > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
        >
        >
        >
        > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
        >
        >
        >
        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
        > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
        >
        >
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        >
        >
        > Ken
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
        >
        >
        >
        > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
        >
        >
        >
        > St. Francis Xavier University
        >
        >
        >
        > 902-867-2265
        >
        >
        >
        > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
        > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
        > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
        > Milton
        >
        >
        >
        > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
        >
        >
        >
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
        > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        >
        >
        > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Ken,
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > J
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
        > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
        > wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > **
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > > Dick wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
        >
        >
        >
        > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
        >
        >
        >
        > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
        > the
        >
        >
        >
        > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
        > me
        >
        >
        >
        > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
        > Hebrew
        >
        >
        >
        > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
        >
        >
        >
        > > typical translation of אל.
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > > Ken
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
        >
        >
        >
        > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
        >
        >
        >
        > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
        >
        >
        >
        > > St. Francis Xavier University
        >
        >
        >
        > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
        > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
        > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
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        > >
        >
        >
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      • andrew fincke
        List! Sorry about the mistranslation of the Septuagint at 1 Sam. 21:3, which says, “And to the lads I testified in the place (where) it is said, ‘Faith of
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 8, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          List!
          Sorry about the mistranslation of the Septuagint at 1 Sam. 21:3, which says, “And to the lads I testified in the place (where) it is said, ‘Faith of God’” not “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God.’” The Greek is καὶ τοῖς παιδαρίοις διαμεμαρτύρημαι ἐν τῷ τόπῳ τῷ λεγομένῳ θεοῦ πίστις φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί. In any case, it’s not “in a place called “Faith of God,’” since the verb in the participle is λέγω not καλέω. That means the continuation in Vaticanus: φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί is a corruption of Jer. 32(39):27: הִנֵּה אֲנִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי כָּל בָּשָׂר הֲמִמֶּנִּי יִפָּלֵא כָּל דָּבָר “Look! I’m the Lord God of all flesh! Is anything too awesome for me?” to הִנֵּה אֲנִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי כָּל בְּשׂרָה מִמֶּנִּי יִפָּלֵא כָּל דָּבָר “Look! I’m the Lord God of all gospel! Every word (going forth) from me is wonderful!” The key is μαεμωνεί, which turns הֲמִמֶּנִּי “Is from me?” at Jeremiah into מִמֶּנִּי “from me” and בָּשָׂר “flesh” into בְּשׂרָה “gospel” (εὐαγγέλιον). That turns θεὸς πάσης σαρκός at Jeremiah into θεοῦ πίστις εὐαγγελίῳ and 1 Sam. 21:3 into “And I testified to the lads (disciples) in the place in the gospel (of Mark) where (it) is said, ‘Faith of God.’” Recorded at Mark 2:25-27 is the good news to the disciples about the temple-bread that was about to replace the raw kernels they were rubbing. It was a “testimony” by virtue of its being drawn from Scripture – 1 Sam. 21:3-7.
          Andrew Fincke








          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          From: finckea@...
          Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:24:02 -0500
          Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







          Dear List!
          To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3 4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s the relevant quote from DJD 17, 235:
          “יעדתי V] חודעתי M; cf. S; העידתי G (διαμεμαρτυρημαι ). The reading of 4QSamb is original. Already Wellhausen, Bücher Samuelis, 121 had recognized that the original Hebrew text had some form of the root יעד. G reads διαμεμαρτυρημαι, the verb regularly used to render the Hip‘il of עוד in G. The reading of V, condixi, would appear to represent יעדתי, a putative Po‘el of ידע, which is clearly a corruption and may now be safely dropped.”
          4QSamb certainly agrees with the Septuagint against the masoretic text. But what is “faith of God” in the Septuagint? Here are the two versions:
          Masoretic text: “And the lads I made acquainted with the place of a certain unnamed individual.”
          Septuagint: “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God.’”
          Apart from the “certain unnamed individual” the problem of 1 Samuel 21:3 is the identity of the “lads,” who have no part in the story. David had just completed three days in hiding (1 Samuel 20:5, 11-12, 24, 35) with an emotional leave-taking of Jonathan (20:42), who advised him to run for his skin. The “companions” Ahimelek expected were remnants of a bygone era – the “men” who helped David win Mikal as bride by delivering a dowry of 100 Philistine foreskins to Saul (18:27). Once David achieved his marital object, he became companionless; and his flight from Mikal’s house (19:11 ff.) further isolated him from the outside world, contact with which only fleeting brushes with Jonathan (19:2) and Samuel (19:18) provided. In the eyes of the author of the Septuagint, David’s lads resembled the friends of the bridegroom who mourned the loss of their companion (Mark 2:19-20). The context of Mark 2 makes clear that these mourning friends of the groom represent the disciples, whose teacher they are destined to lose. The anonymous bridegroom-friends emerge in the following pericope as disciples plucking their way through a field ready to harvest (2:23), and the continuation at 2:25-28 identifies them with David's companions at Nov (“and he gave also to those with him” end of v. 26). “I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God’” refers the reader to the only other book of the Bible containing the phrase πίστις θεοῦ - i.e. Mark*, where the reader learns through a “testimony” (i.e. the parable of the mourning bridegroom-friends) the identity of the priest and the lads. Lacking the Mark gospel – which had not yet been published – the author of 4QSamb omitted the part about “faith of God,” which apparently entered the Gospel of Mark at an advanced stage of its development. “Certain unnamed individual” specifies in 4QSamb an amorphous body of unfixed testimonies to which אל vaguely refers. See J. Rendel Harris, Testimonies, Cambridge, 1916-1920.
          Andrew Fincke
          *Mark 11:22






          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          From: finckea@...
          Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:29 -0400
          Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







          Dear John:
          1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only prefigured – “was like” - Him.
          2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in 1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support this view.
          3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some additions from 4QSam-b.
          1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
          1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place called ‘Faith of God.’
          1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
          1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
          1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the was heavy on Saul.
          2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the king lamented over Abner.
          2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic: Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [ ] to Benjamin.
          There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls. The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then “to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
          Andrew Fincke





          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          From: johnisaacmilton@...
          Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
          Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





          Hi Ken and Dick,

          It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
          sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
          Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
          the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
          Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
          a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
          accent)?

          Best,

          John

          On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Hi Ken,
          >
          > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
          > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
          > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
          > . .
          >
          > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
          > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
          > recension."
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Dick
          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
          > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
          > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
          > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
          > Harvard University
          > Six Divinity Avenue
          > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
          > Tel: 617-495-4239
          > Fax: 617-496-8904
          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
          >
          > ________________________________________
          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
          > kpenner@...]
          > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
          >
          > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
          >
          >
          >
          > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
          > επι?
          >
          > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
          > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
          > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
          >
          >
          >
          > Ken
          >
          >
          >
          > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
          >
          > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
          >
          > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
          >
          > kpenner@...
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
          > Richard
          >
          > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
          >
          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Cc: Saley, Richard
          >
          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Ken,
          >
          >
          >
          > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
          > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
          > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
          > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
          > Let me see if I can explain:
          >
          >
          >
          > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
          > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
          > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
          > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
          > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
          > Hebrew על as you have noted.
          >
          >
          >
          > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
          > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
          >
          >
          >
          > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
          > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
          > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
          > reflects Hebrew אל.
          >
          >
          >
          > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
          > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
          > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
          > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
          > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
          > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
          > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
          >
          >
          >
          > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
          > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
          > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
          > Lucianic tradition).
          >
          >
          >
          > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
          > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
          > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
          > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
          > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
          > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
          > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
          >
          >
          >
          > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
          >
          >
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Dick
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
          >
          > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
          >
          > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
          >
          > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
          >
          > Harvard University
          >
          > Six Divinity Avenue
          >
          > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
          >
          > Tel: 617-495-4239
          >
          > Fax: 617-496-8904
          >
          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________________
          >
          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
          > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
          > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
          >
          > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
          >
          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
          >
          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks, Andy.
          >
          >
          >
          > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
          > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
          > come from, if not from על?
          >
          >
          >
          > Ken
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
          > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
          > fincke
          >
          >
          >
          > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
          >
          >
          >
          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
          >
          >
          >
          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Ken,
          >
          >
          >
          > Here it is!
          >
          >
          >
          > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
          > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
          > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
          > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
          > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
          > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
          > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
          > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
          > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
          > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
          > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
          > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
          >
          >
          >
          > Andrew Fincke
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
          >
          >
          >
          > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
          >
          >
          >
          > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
          >
          >
          >
          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
          > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
          >
          >
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          >
          >
          > Ken
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
          >
          >
          >
          > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
          >
          >
          >
          > St. Francis Xavier University
          >
          >
          >
          > 902-867-2265
          >
          >
          >
          > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
          > Milton
          >
          >
          >
          > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
          >
          >
          >
          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
          >
          >
          >
          > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Ken,
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > J
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
          > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
          > wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > **
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > > Dick wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
          >
          >
          >
          > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
          >
          >
          >
          > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
          > the
          >
          >
          >
          > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
          > me
          >
          >
          >
          > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
          > Hebrew
          >
          >
          >
          > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
          >
          >
          >
          > > typical translation of אל.
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > > Ken
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
          >
          >
          >
          > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
          >
          >
          >
          > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
          >
          >
          >
          > > St. Francis Xavier University
          >
          >
          >
          > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
          > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
          > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          >
          >
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          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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        • andrew fincke
          Dear List, It doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to see that φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί ending 1 Sam. 21:3 in Vaticanus is the transcription
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 10, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear List,
            It doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to see that φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί ending 1 Sam. 21:3 in Vaticanus is the transcription or partial transcription of something in Hebrew. But if not the פְּלֹנִי אַלְמוֹנִי of M and the פלני אלמני of 4QSamb, then what? How did the Hebrew phrase, which means “some anonymous individual,” get so corrupted in the Greek? And what bearing does this corrupt Greek have on the preceding “I testified to the lads in a place said ‘Faith of God’”? The first word isn’t so bad - φελλανεὶ fairly well represents פלני. The difference is in the punctuation – the masoretes have peloni (פְּלֹנִי), Vaticanus fellani, which transcribes not פלני but rather פֶלֶא אֲנִי “I am wonderful” or, rather, “I am Wonderful,” since Isaiah 9:6 says, “His name shall be called ‘Wonderful’ (פֶּלֶא).” The identity of the “I” of 1 Sam. 21:3: “I testified to the lads” is revealed – the man called “Wonderful,” whose testimony to the lads is recorded in the Gospel of Mark, where “Faith of God” appears. Now μαεμωνεί is a different case. The Septuagint knew how to transcribe אַלְמוֹנִי – see ελμωνι at 2 Kings 6:8. Here the author had something else in mind - אֵמוּנִי “my faithfulness.” For אֵמוּן “faithfulness” see Deut. 32:20. His idea was “I am Wonderful due to My faithfulness (מֵאֵמוּנִי = μαεμωνεί),” which explains “faith of God!” at Mark 11:22. The “anonymous person” turns out to be the priest that met David – Ahimelek according to 1 Samuel, Abiathar, son of Ahimelek, according to Mark 2:26. Turns out Mark is right, since Isaiah 9:6 ends the list of divine names with אֲבִיעַד שַׂר שׁלוֺם “The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.” With all due respect to Lancelot Andrewes and the King James translators, אֲבִיעַד שַׂר is best understood אֶבְיָתָר “Abiathar,” and שׁלוֺם “Completion!” is the “Amen” of the litany.
            Andrew Fincke





            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            From: finckea@...
            Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:24:02 -0500
            Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







            Dear List!
            To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3 4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s the relevant quote from DJD 17, 235:
            “יעדתי V] חודעתי M; cf. S; העידתי G (διαμεμαρτυρημαι ). The reading of 4QSamb is original. Already Wellhausen, Bücher Samuelis, 121 had recognized that the original Hebrew text had some form of the root יעד. G reads διαμεμαρτυρημαι, the verb regularly used to render the Hip‘il of עוד in G. The reading of V, condixi, would appear to represent יעדתי, a putative Po‘el of ידע, which is clearly a corruption and may now be safely dropped.”
            4QSamb certainly agrees with the Septuagint against the masoretic text. But what is “faith of God” in the Septuagint? Here are the two versions:
            Masoretic text: “And the lads I made acquainted with the place of a certain unnamed individual.”
            Septuagint: “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God.’”
            Apart from the “certain unnamed individual” the problem of 1 Samuel 21:3 is the identity of the “lads,” who have no part in the story. David had just completed three days in hiding (1 Samuel 20:5, 11-12, 24, 35) with an emotional leave-taking of Jonathan (20:42), who advised him to run for his skin. The “companions” Ahimelek expected were remnants of a bygone era – the “men” who helped David win Mikal as bride by delivering a dowry of 100 Philistine foreskins to Saul (18:27). Once David achieved his marital object, he became companionless; and his flight from Mikal’s house (19:11 ff.) further isolated him from the outside world, contact with which only fleeting brushes with Jonathan (19:2) and Samuel (19:18) provided. In the eyes of the author of the Septuagint, David’s lads resembled the friends of the bridegroom who mourned the loss of their companion (Mark 2:19-20). The context of Mark 2 makes clear that these mourning friends of the groom represent the disciples, whose teacher they are destined to lose. The anonymous bridegroom-friends emerge in the following pericope as disciples plucking their way through a field ready to harvest (2:23), and the continuation at 2:25-28 identifies them with David's companions at Nov (“and he gave also to those with him” end of v. 26). “I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God’” refers the reader to the only other book of the Bible containing the phrase πίστις θεοῦ - i.e. Mark*, where the reader learns through a “testimony” (i.e. the parable of the mourning bridegroom-friends) the identity of the priest and the lads. Lacking the Mark gospel – which had not yet been published – the author of 4QSamb omitted the part about “faith of God,” which apparently entered the Gospel of Mark at an advanced stage of its development. “Certain unnamed individual” specifies in 4QSamb an amorphous body of unfixed testimonies to which אל vaguely refers. See J. Rendel Harris, Testimonies, Cambridge, 1916-1920.
            Andrew Fincke
            *Mark 11:22






            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            From: finckea@...
            Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:29 -0400
            Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







            Dear John:
            1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only prefigured – “was like” - Him.
            2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in 1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support this view.
            3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some additions from 4QSam-b.
            1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
            1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place called ‘Faith of God.’
            1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
            1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
            1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the was heavy on Saul.
            2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the king lamented over Abner.
            2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic: Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [ ] to Benjamin.
            There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls. The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then “to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
            Andrew Fincke





            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            From: johnisaacmilton@...
            Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
            Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





            Hi Ken and Dick,

            It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
            sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
            Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
            the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
            Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
            a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
            accent)?

            Best,

            John

            On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Hi Ken,
            >
            > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
            > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
            > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
            > . .
            >
            > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
            > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
            > recension."
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Dick
            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
            > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
            > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
            > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
            > Harvard University
            > Six Divinity Avenue
            > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
            > Tel: 617-495-4239
            > Fax: 617-496-8904
            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
            >
            > ________________________________________
            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
            > kpenner@...]
            > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
            >
            > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
            >
            >
            >
            > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
            > επι?
            >
            > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
            > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
            > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
            >
            >
            >
            > Ken
            >
            >
            >
            > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
            >
            > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
            >
            > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
            >
            > kpenner@...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
            > Richard
            >
            > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
            >
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Cc: Saley, Richard
            >
            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Ken,
            >
            >
            >
            > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
            > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
            > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
            > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
            > Let me see if I can explain:
            >
            >
            >
            > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
            > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
            > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
            > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
            > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
            > Hebrew על as you have noted.
            >
            >
            >
            > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
            > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
            >
            >
            >
            > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
            > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
            > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
            > reflects Hebrew אל.
            >
            >
            >
            > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
            > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
            > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
            > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
            > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
            > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
            > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
            >
            >
            >
            > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
            > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
            > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
            > Lucianic tradition).
            >
            >
            >
            > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
            > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
            > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
            > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
            > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
            > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
            > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
            >
            >
            >
            > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
            >
            >
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Dick
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
            >
            > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
            >
            > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
            >
            > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
            >
            > Harvard University
            >
            > Six Divinity Avenue
            >
            > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
            >
            > Tel: 617-495-4239
            >
            > Fax: 617-496-8904
            >
            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________________
            >
            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
            > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
            > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
            >
            > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
            >
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks, Andy.
            >
            >
            >
            > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
            > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
            > come from, if not from על?
            >
            >
            >
            > Ken
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
            > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
            > fincke
            >
            >
            >
            > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
            >
            >
            >
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
            >
            >
            >
            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear Ken,
            >
            >
            >
            > Here it is!
            >
            >
            >
            > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
            > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
            > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
            > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
            > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
            > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
            > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
            > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
            > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
            > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
            > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
            > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
            >
            >
            >
            > Andrew Fincke
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
            >
            >
            >
            > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
            >
            >
            >
            > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
            >
            >
            >
            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
            > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
            >
            >
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            >
            >
            > Ken
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
            >
            >
            >
            > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
            >
            >
            >
            > St. Francis Xavier University
            >
            >
            >
            > 902-867-2265
            >
            >
            >
            > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
            > Milton
            >
            >
            >
            > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
            >
            >
            >
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
            >
            >
            >
            > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Ken,
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > J
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
            > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
            > wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > > **
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > > Dick wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
            >
            >
            >
            > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
            >
            >
            >
            > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
            > the
            >
            >
            >
            > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
            > me
            >
            >
            >
            > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
            > Hebrew
            >
            >
            >
            > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
            >
            >
            >
            > > typical translation of אל.
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > > Ken
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
            >
            >
            >
            > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
            >
            >
            >
            > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
            >
            >
            >
            > > St. Francis Xavier University
            >
            >
            >
            > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
            > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
            > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
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            >
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            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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            > ------------------------------------
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