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2 Sam 23:1

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  • John Milton
    I wondered if someone could give me an opinion of the LXX s rendering of the * al* ( on high ) in 2 Sam 23:1. How would one translate the *epi* in that
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 13, 2011
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      I wondered if someone could give me an opinion of the LXX's rendering of the
      * 'al* ('on high') in 2 Sam 23:1. How would one translate the *epi* in that
      verse? Also is the accent conjunctive or disjunctive? I'm interested to know
      if the *epi* could be translated as 'concerning' or 'about' as if it is
      reading the *'al *with a *patach* and not a *qamets* in the MT, changing the
      reading of *'al* as a substantive and instead reading it as a
      preposition. interesting
      variants? Any help would be great. Much Thanks.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Drew Longacre
      Hi John,   Brenton translated the LXX phrase  and faithful the man whom the Lord raised up to be the anointed of the God of Jacob. The epi is probably not
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 14, 2011
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        Hi John,
         
        Brenton translated the LXX phrase "and faithful the man whom the Lord raised up to be the anointed of the God of Jacob." The epi is probably not to be translated "about" or "concerning," because that would seem to imply that the anointed is one other than David, which in this context does not fit well. There appear to be significant differences in the Greek texts as well, which must be considered. The MT, however, breaks the sentence up between'al and meshiah. Another complicating factor is that 4QSam(a) reads heqim 'el mashiah in this verse. The Hiphil clearly aligns with the LXX against the MT.
         
        The LXX text could probably be reconstructed in one of two ways:
         
        1) heqim 'el mashiah as in 4QSam(a), "whom God raised up to be the anointed..."
         
        2) heqim 'al mashiah, "whom he [secondarily explicated with "the Lord"] raised up to be the anointed..."
         
        The first reconstruction is probably more grammatical in Hebrew, but the second accounts more easily for the Greek epi.
         
        Have fun!
         
        Drew Longacre
         
         
         
         
         


        ________________________________
        From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:49 AM
        Subject: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



         

        I wondered if someone could give me an opinion of the LXX's rendering of the
        * 'al* ('on high') in 2 Sam 23:1. How would one translate the *epi* in that
        verse? Also is the accent conjunctive or disjunctive? I'm interested to know
        if the *epi* could be translated as 'concerning' or 'about' as if it is
        reading the *'al *with a *patach* and not a *qamets* in the MT, changing the
        reading of *'al* as a substantive and instead reading it as a
        preposition. interesting
        variants? Any help would be great. Much Thanks.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John Milton
        Hi Drew, Thanks for your response to my query. I am aware of Brenton s translation and the fact that translating the epi as concerning would not align with
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 14, 2011
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          Hi Drew,

          Thanks for your response to my query. I am aware of Brenton's translation
          and the fact that translating the epi as concerning would not align with
          the MT. However, it seems that the LXX is reading the 'al' as a preposition
          and not with a disjunctive accent (as well as the Vulgate). I'm interested
          to know if it is possible to translate the epi as 'concerning' without the
          influence of Brenton's translation or the MT's late vocalized reading.
          Perhaps there is more going on in the translation - like in the targumim or
          the LXX of Jeremiah.

          Best,

          J

          On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Drew Longacre <drewlongacre@...>wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Hi John,
          >
          > Brenton translated the LXX phrase "and faithful the man whom the Lord
          > raised up to be the anointed of the God of Jacob." The epi is probably not
          > to be translated "about" or "concerning," because that would seem to imply
          > that the anointed is one other than David, which in this context does not
          > fit well. There appear to be significant differences in the Greek texts as
          > well, which must be considered. The MT, however, breaks the sentence up
          > between'al and meshiah. Another complicating factor is that 4QSam(a) reads
          > heqim 'el mashiah in this verse. The Hiphil clearly aligns with the LXX
          > against the MT.
          >
          > The LXX text could probably be reconstructed in one of two ways:
          >
          > 1) heqim 'el mashiah as in 4QSam(a), "whom God raised up to be the
          > anointed..."
          >
          > 2) heqim 'al mashiah, "whom he [secondarily explicated with "the Lord"]
          > raised up to be the anointed..."
          >
          > The first reconstruction is probably more grammatical in Hebrew, but the
          > second accounts more easily for the Greek epi.
          >
          > Have fun!
          >
          > Drew Longacre
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:49 AM
          > Subject: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I wondered if someone could give me an opinion of the LXX's rendering of
          > the
          > * 'al* ('on high') in 2 Sam 23:1. How would one translate the *epi* in that
          >
          > verse? Also is the accent conjunctive or disjunctive? I'm interested to
          > know
          > if the *epi* could be translated as 'concerning' or 'about' as if it is
          > reading the *'al *with a *patach* and not a *qamets* in the MT, changing
          > the
          > reading of *'al* as a substantive and instead reading it as a
          >
          > preposition. interesting
          > variants? Any help would be great. Much Thanks.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Drew Longacre
          Hi John,   I would say for starters that such a use of the pronoun seems unlikely in the Hebrew. heqim al is usually used for someone being established as
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 14, 2011
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            Hi John,
             
            I would say for starters that such a use of the pronoun seems unlikely in the Hebrew. "heqim 'al" is usually used for someone being established as an authority over someone or else as an enemy against someone. Neither of these fits the context here, and it is intrinsically unlikely that the LXX would have understood it any other way.
             
            As far as the Greek pronoun goes, Liddell and Scott mention both the concepts of authority and enmity, but never a vague "concerning." The "Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint" says exactly the same thing. Unless you are prepared to say that David is set as an authority over or enemy against the anointed, you would be hard-pressed to argue that epi + accusative in this context means anything but how Brenton translated it.
             
            Thus, the translation "concerning" has problems on both the Hebrew and Greek levels and is quite unlikely. Unless there are strong contextual indicators to indicate otherwise, Brenton's translation should probably be accepted. It seems like both the MT and LXX present David as the anointed in 23:1.
             
            -Drew
             

             

            ________________________________
            From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:12 PM
            Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

            Hi Drew,

            Thanks for your response to my query. I am aware of Brenton's translation
            and the fact that translating the epi as concerning  would not align with
            the MT. However, it seems that the LXX is reading the 'al' as a preposition
            and not with a disjunctive accent (as well as the Vulgate). I'm interested
            to know if it is possible to translate the epi as 'concerning' without the
            influence of Brenton's translation or the MT's late vocalized reading.
            Perhaps there is more going on in the translation - like in the targumim or
            the LXX of Jeremiah.

            Best,

            J

            On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Drew Longacre <drewlongacre@...>wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Hi John,
            >
            > Brenton translated the LXX phrase "and faithful the man whom the Lord
            > raised up to be the anointed of the God of Jacob." The epi is probably not
            > to be translated "about" or "concerning," because that would seem to imply
            > that the anointed is one other than David, which in this context does not
            > fit well. There appear to be significant differences in the Greek texts as
            > well, which must be considered. The MT, however, breaks the sentence up
            > between'al and meshiah. Another complicating factor is that 4QSam(a) reads
            > heqim 'el mashiah in this verse. The Hiphil clearly aligns with the LXX
            > against the MT.
            >
            > The LXX text could probably be reconstructed in one of two ways:
            >
            > 1) heqim 'el mashiah as in 4QSam(a), "whom God raised up to be the
            > anointed..."
            >
            > 2) heqim 'al mashiah, "whom he [secondarily explicated with "the Lord"]
            > raised up to be the anointed..."
            >
            > The first reconstruction is probably more grammatical in Hebrew, but the
            > second accounts more easily for the Greek epi.
            >
            > Have fun!
            >
            > Drew Longacre
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:49 AM
            > Subject: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I wondered if someone could give me an opinion of the LXX's rendering of
            > the
            > * 'al* ('on high') in 2 Sam 23:1. How would one translate the *epi* in that
            >
            > verse? Also is the accent conjunctive or disjunctive? I'm interested to
            > know
            > if the *epi* could be translated as 'concerning' or 'about' as if it is
            > reading the *'al *with a *patach* and not a *qamets* in the MT, changing
            > the
            > reading of *'al* as a substantive and instead reading it as a
            >
            > preposition. interesting
            > variants? Any help would be great. Much Thanks.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >

            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Saley, Richard
            Hi John, The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out. The על of MT is best taken as
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 14, 2011
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              Hi John,

              The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out. The על of MT is best taken as exhibiting the widespread confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew, found with great frequency in the books of Samuel. The cause of the confusion seems to have been the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound, i.e., both אל and על came to be pronounced the same. If you’re interested, you can find a fuller treatment of the varied texts of this verse on p. 186 of the official publication of 4QSam-a (Cross, Frank Moore, Donald W. Parry, Richard J. Saley and Eugene Ulrich, eds., Qumran Cave 4. XII:1-2 Samuel. DJD 17. Oxford, 2005).

              Also, I would highly recommend 'A New English Translation of the Septuagint' rather than Brenton which must now be considered obsolete.

              Cheers,
              Dick

              <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
              Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
              Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
              Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
              Harvard University
              Six Divinity Avenue
              Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
              Tel: 617-495-4239
              Fax: 617-496-8904
              <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

              ________________________________________
              From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Drew Longacre [drewlongacre@...]
              Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:29 AM
              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

              Hi John,

              I would say for starters that such a use of the pronoun seems unlikely in the Hebrew. "heqim 'al" is usually used for someone being established as an authority over someone or else as an enemy against someone. Neither of these fits the context here, and it is intrinsically unlikely that the LXX would have understood it any other way.

              As far as the Greek pronoun goes, Liddell and Scott mention both the concepts of authority and enmity, but never a vague "concerning." The "Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint" says exactly the same thing. Unless you are prepared to say that David is set as an authority over or enemy against the anointed, you would be hard-pressed to argue that epi + accusative in this context means anything but how Brenton translated it.

              Thus, the translation "concerning" has problems on both the Hebrew and Greek levels and is quite unlikely. Unless there are strong contextual indicators to indicate otherwise, Brenton's translation should probably be accepted. It seems like both the MT and LXX present David as the anointed in 23:1.

              -Drew




              ________________________________
              From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:12 PM
              Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

              Hi Drew,

              Thanks for your response to my query. I am aware of Brenton's translation
              and the fact that translating the epi as concerning would not align with
              the MT. However, it seems that the LXX is reading the 'al' as a preposition
              and not with a disjunctive accent (as well as the Vulgate). I'm interested
              to know if it is possible to translate the epi as 'concerning' without the
              influence of Brenton's translation or the MT's late vocalized reading.
              Perhaps there is more going on in the translation - like in the targumim or
              the LXX of Jeremiah.

              Best,

              J

              On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Drew Longacre <drewlongacre@...>wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Hi John,
              >
              > Brenton translated the LXX phrase "and faithful the man whom the Lord
              > raised up to be the anointed of the God of Jacob." The epi is probably not
              > to be translated "about" or "concerning," because that would seem to imply
              > that the anointed is one other than David, which in this context does not
              > fit well. There appear to be significant differences in the Greek texts as
              > well, which must be considered. The MT, however, breaks the sentence up
              > between'al and meshiah. Another complicating factor is that 4QSam(a) reads
              > heqim 'el mashiah in this verse. The Hiphil clearly aligns with the LXX
              > against the MT.
              >
              > The LXX text could probably be reconstructed in one of two ways:
              >
              > 1) heqim 'el mashiah as in 4QSam(a), "whom God raised up to be the
              > anointed..."
              >
              > 2) heqim 'al mashiah, "whom he [secondarily explicated with "the Lord"]
              > raised up to be the anointed..."
              >
              > The first reconstruction is probably more grammatical in Hebrew, but the
              > second accounts more easily for the Greek epi.
              >
              > Have fun!
              >
              > Drew Longacre
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
              > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:49 AM
              > Subject: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I wondered if someone could give me an opinion of the LXX's rendering of
              > the
              > * 'al* ('on high') in 2 Sam 23:1. How would one translate the *epi* in that
              >
              > verse? Also is the accent conjunctive or disjunctive? I'm interested to
              > know
              > if the *epi* could be translated as 'concerning' or 'about' as if it is
              > reading the *'al *with a *patach* and not a *qamets* in the MT, changing
              > the
              > reading of *'al* as a substantive and instead reading it as a
              >
              > preposition. interesting
              > variants? Any help would be great. Much Thanks.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >

              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • John Milton
              Hi Drew, Just to follow up - I was intrigued with a note in John Sailhamer s Introduction to OT Theology (pp 215-23?) where he make mention of the LXX reading
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 14, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Drew,

                Just to follow up - I was intrigued with a note in John Sailhamer's
                Introduction to OT Theology (pp 215-23?) where he make mention of the LXX
                reading it as concerning or about. This makes the 'oracle' of David about
                the anointed or concerning the anointed of the God . . . It seems like a
                stretch, however Sailhamer is expert on LXX translation. What do you think?

                Best,

                J

                On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Drew Longacre <drewlongacre@...>wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > Hi John,
                >
                > I would say for starters that such a use of the pronoun seems unlikely in
                > the Hebrew. "heqim 'al" is usually used for someone being established as an
                > authority over someone or else as an enemy against someone. Neither of these
                > fits the context here, and it is intrinsically unlikely that the LXX would
                > have understood it any other way.
                >
                > As far as the Greek pronoun goes, Liddell and Scott mention both the
                > concepts of authority and enmity, but never a vague "concerning." The
                > "Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint" says exactly the same thing.
                > Unless you are prepared to say that David is set as an authority over or
                > enemy against the anointed, you would be hard-pressed to argue that epi +
                > accusative in this context means anything but how Brenton translated it.
                >
                > Thus, the translation "concerning" has problems on both the Hebrew and
                > Greek levels and is quite unlikely. Unless there are strong contextual
                > indicators to indicate otherwise, Brenton's translation should probably be
                > accepted. It seems like both the MT and LXX present David as the anointed in
                > 23:1.
                >
                > -Drew
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:12 PM
                > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                >
                >
                > Hi Drew,
                >
                > Thanks for your response to my query. I am aware of Brenton's translation
                > and the fact that translating the epi as concerning would not align with
                > the MT. However, it seems that the LXX is reading the 'al' as a preposition
                > and not with a disjunctive accent (as well as the Vulgate). I'm interested
                > to know if it is possible to translate the epi as 'concerning' without the
                > influence of Brenton's translation or the MT's late vocalized reading.
                > Perhaps there is more going on in the translation - like in the targumim or
                > the LXX of Jeremiah.
                >
                > Best,
                >
                > J
                >
                > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Drew Longacre <drewlongacre@...
                > >wrote:
                >
                > > **
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi John,
                > >
                > > Brenton translated the LXX phrase "and faithful the man whom the Lord
                > > raised up to be the anointed of the God of Jacob." The epi is probably
                > not
                > > to be translated "about" or "concerning," because that would seem to
                > imply
                > > that the anointed is one other than David, which in this context does not
                > > fit well. There appear to be significant differences in the Greek texts
                > as
                > > well, which must be considered. The MT, however, breaks the sentence up
                > > between'al and meshiah. Another complicating factor is that 4QSam(a)
                > reads
                > > heqim 'el mashiah in this verse. The Hiphil clearly aligns with the LXX
                > > against the MT.
                > >
                > > The LXX text could probably be reconstructed in one of two ways:
                > >
                > > 1) heqim 'el mashiah as in 4QSam(a), "whom God raised up to be the
                > > anointed..."
                > >
                > > 2) heqim 'al mashiah, "whom he [secondarily explicated with "the Lord"]
                > > raised up to be the anointed..."
                > >
                > > The first reconstruction is probably more grammatical in Hebrew, but the
                > > second accounts more easily for the Greek epi.
                > >
                > > Have fun!
                > >
                > > Drew Longacre
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
                > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:49 AM
                > > Subject: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > I wondered if someone could give me an opinion of the LXX's rendering of
                > > the
                > > * 'al* ('on high') in 2 Sam 23:1. How would one translate the *epi* in
                > that
                > >
                > > verse? Also is the accent conjunctive or disjunctive? I'm interested to
                > > know
                > > if the *epi* could be translated as 'concerning' or 'about' as if it is
                > > reading the *'al *with a *patach* and not a *qamets* in the MT, changing
                > > the
                > > reading of *'al* as a substantive and instead reading it as a
                > >
                > > preposition. interesting
                > > variants? Any help would be great. Much Thanks.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Drew Longacre
                Hi John,   I d be skeptical, because of the grammatical reasons already mentioned.   Additionally, the lack of the article before anointed in the Greek
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 14, 2011
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                  Hi John,
                   
                  I'd be skeptical, because of the grammatical reasons already mentioned.
                   
                  Additionally, the lack of the article before "anointed" in the Greek probably is more natural if understood as David being appointed as the Lord's anointed, rather than the oracle being about "the" Messianic anointed one.
                   
                  Also, the LXX does not translate the Hebrew ne'um as "oracle," but rather as "faithful," with reference to David. This further indicates that the LXX did not understand the anointed as the Messiah, because the phrase cannot even be taken to refer to the oracle at all, but is part of David's introduction of himself. In order for the phrase to mean that the oracle is "concerning the Messiah," it would have to be attached grammatically to the "last words of David" rather than a further description of David's faithfulness in the LXX.
                   
                  -Drew


                  ________________________________
                  From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
                  To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 6:17 PM
                  Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

                  Hi Drew,

                  Just to follow up - I was intrigued with a note in John Sailhamer's
                  Introduction to OT Theology (pp 215-23?) where he make mention of the LXX
                  reading it as concerning or about. This makes the 'oracle' of David  about
                  the anointed or concerning the anointed of the God . . . It seems like a
                  stretch, however Sailhamer is expert on LXX translation. What do you think?

                  Best,

                  J

                  On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Drew Longacre <drewlongacre@...>wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi John,
                  >
                  > I would say for starters that such a use of the pronoun seems unlikely in
                  > the Hebrew. "heqim 'al" is usually used for someone being established as an
                  > authority over someone or else as an enemy against someone. Neither of these
                  > fits the context here, and it is intrinsically unlikely that the LXX would
                  > have understood it any other way.
                  >
                  > As far as the Greek pronoun goes, Liddell and Scott mention both the
                  > concepts of authority and enmity, but never a vague "concerning." The
                  > "Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint" says exactly the same thing.
                  > Unless you are prepared to say that David is set as an authority over or
                  > enemy against the anointed, you would be hard-pressed to argue that epi +
                  > accusative in this context means anything but how Brenton translated it.
                  >
                  > Thus, the translation "concerning" has problems on both the Hebrew and
                  > Greek levels and is quite unlikely. Unless there are strong contextual
                  > indicators to indicate otherwise, Brenton's translation should probably be
                  > accepted. It seems like both the MT and LXX present David as the anointed in
                  > 23:1.
                  >
                  > -Drew
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
                  > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:12 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Drew,
                  >
                  > Thanks for your response to my query. I am aware of Brenton's translation
                  > and the fact that translating the epi as concerning  would not align with
                  > the MT. However, it seems that the LXX is reading the 'al' as a preposition
                  > and not with a disjunctive accent (as well as the Vulgate). I'm interested
                  > to know if it is possible to translate the epi as 'concerning' without the
                  > influence of Brenton's translation or the MT's late vocalized reading.
                  > Perhaps there is more going on in the translation - like in the targumim or
                  > the LXX of Jeremiah.
                  >
                  > Best,
                  >
                  > J
                  >
                  > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Drew Longacre <drewlongacre@...
                  > >wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi John,
                  > >
                  > > Brenton translated the LXX phrase "and faithful the man whom the Lord
                  > > raised up to be the anointed of the God of Jacob." The epi is probably
                  > not
                  > > to be translated "about" or "concerning," because that would seem to
                  > imply
                  > > that the anointed is one other than David, which in this context does not
                  > > fit well. There appear to be significant differences in the Greek texts
                  > as
                  > > well, which must be considered. The MT, however, breaks the sentence up
                  > > between'al and meshiah. Another complicating factor is that 4QSam(a)
                  > reads
                  > > heqim 'el mashiah in this verse. The Hiphil clearly aligns with the LXX
                  > > against the MT.
                  > >
                  > > The LXX text could probably be reconstructed in one of two ways:
                  > >
                  > > 1) heqim 'el mashiah as in 4QSam(a), "whom God raised up to be the
                  > > anointed..."
                  > >
                  > > 2) heqim 'al mashiah, "whom he [secondarily explicated with "the Lord"]
                  > > raised up to be the anointed..."
                  > >
                  > > The first reconstruction is probably more grammatical in Hebrew, but the
                  > > second accounts more easily for the Greek epi.
                  > >
                  > > Have fun!
                  > >
                  > > Drew Longacre
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
                  > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:49 AM
                  > > Subject: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I wondered if someone could give me an opinion of the LXX's rendering of
                  > > the
                  > > * 'al* ('on high') in 2 Sam 23:1. How would one translate the *epi* in
                  > that
                  > >
                  > > verse? Also is the accent conjunctive or disjunctive? I'm interested to
                  > > know
                  > > if the *epi* could be translated as 'concerning' or 'about' as if it is
                  > > reading the *'al *with a *patach* and not a *qamets* in the MT, changing
                  > > the
                  > > reading of *'al* as a substantive and instead reading it as a
                  > >
                  > > preposition. interesting
                  > > variants? Any help would be great. Much Thanks.
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >

                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • andrew fincke
                  Dear John, If you have a copy of Brooke-McLean, The Old Testament in Greek According to Codex Vaticanus II,1, you can check my translations. I ve included the
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 14, 2011
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                    Dear John,
                    If you have a copy of Brooke-McLean, The Old Testament in Greek According to Codex Vaticanus II,1, you can check my translations. I've included the Peshitta, KIng James and ESV for comparison; they are not in Brooke-McLean's apparatus. If the scripts don't come through, just check my (for the Coptic, Drescher's) translations. To spare the list, I give the Ge'ez in transcription. To retrovert it back to Ge'ez letters use Lambdin's grammar. The purpose of all this is not to overwhelm but rather to show the fluidity in the transmission. If you're scratching your head, it's the same fleas that bothered the monks in the Coptic and Ethiopian monasteries as they struggled with the text.
                    Masoretic text: וּנְאֻם הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב
                    And the utterance of the man, he was stood upon the anointed of the God of Jacob
                    וְאֵימַר גֻברָא דִמרַבַא לְמַלכֻו מַשִׁיחַ בְמֵימַר אְלָהֵיה 1 דְיַעְקֹב 2 דישׁראלTargum:
                    And the utterance of the man who was anointed to the kingdom of the Anointed by the word of the God of Jacob (Israel)
                    Vaticanus: καὶ πιστὸς ἀνήρ ὃν ἀνέστησεν κύριος ἐπὶ χριστὸν θεοῦ Ιακωβ
                    And faithful (is the) man whom the Lord stood upon the anointed of the God (of?) Jacob
                    Lucianic: πιστὸς ἀνήρ ὃν ἀνέστησεν ὁ θς̄ χριστὸν θς̄ Ιακωβ
                    Faithful (is the) man whom God stood anointed – God (of?) Jacob
                    KJV: and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob … said
                    ESV: the oracle of the man who was raised on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob,
                    Ge’ez: wame’eman be’esi za’aqama ’egzi’abḥēr ’amlāka yā‘eqob
                    And faithful (is the) man whom the Lord God of Jacob stood
                    Coptic: ⲁγⲱ ⲟⲩⲡⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲣⲱⲙⲉ ⲡⲁⲓ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁ ⲡϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ̅ ⲧⲟⲩⲛⲟⲥϥ̅ ⲉϫⲉⲙ ⲡⲉϥⲗⲁⲟⲥ ⲓⲁⲕⲱⲃ
                    and faithful is the man〈this〉whom the Lord raised over his people, Iakob (tr. Drescher, The Coptic (Sahidic) Version of Kingdoms I,II, 139)
                    Jacob of Edessa: ܐܡܪ ܓܒܪܐ ܡܗܝܡܢܐ ܕܐܩܝܡ ܡܪܝܐ ܡܫܝܚܐ ܐܠܗܐ ܕܝܥܩܘܒ
                    A faithful man said that the Lord stood an anointed God of Jacob
                    Peshitta: ܐܡܪ ܓܒܪܐ ܕܐܩܝܡ ܢܝܪܐ ܕܡܫܝܚܗ ܘܐܠܗܗ ܕܝܥܩܘܒ
                    A man said that he stood the yoke of his anointed and of the God of Jacob
                    Armenian: և հաւաստարիմ աեր զոր կացոյց Տէր յօծէալ աստուծոյ ʼի վէրայ Յակօբայ
                    And faithful (is the) man which God set in the anointed God over Jacob
                    Wellhausen, Der Text der Bücher Samuelis, 211:
                    LXX has twice אמן “faithful” for נאם. That the Masoretes correctly punctuated הקם על (with hofal for the verb and non-prepositional על in the sense “somewhere up there” – F.) and thus separated the phrase from what comes next, is proven by Numbers 24:3. Thenius’ support of LXX: “Whom the Lord stood upon the anointed of the God if Jacob” is ridiculous. The sentence is hogwash and unaesthetic and lacks any logical connection with the following “And the songs of Israel are lovely” (LXX).”
                    McCarter, II Samuel, 476-77 corrects Wellhausen, who this time also has 4QSama against him, in that he (McCarter) sees behind πιστος נאמן not אמן. Cross/Saley, Qumran Cave 4: 1-2 Samuel, 186 come down decidedly in favor of 4QSama: אל for על of the masoretic text and Varicanus. Through the omission of επι, the Lucianic manuscripts support the scroll reading, since אֵל is “God” - ὁ θς̅. Apart from the Lucianic, which has an extraneous “God of Jacob,” only Ge’ez, Coptic and Jacob of Edessa make sense. Peshitta reads על as עֺל “yoke.” Budde, Die Bücher Samuel, 315 was the first to catch the glory of the Lucianic/4QSama reading: “הַקִם אֵל connects to the following and restores the sense.”
                    Andrew Fincke




                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    From: drewlongacre@...
                    Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:45:21 -0700
                    Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1






                    Hi John,

                    I'd be skeptical, because of the grammatical reasons already mentioned.

                    Additionally, the lack of the article before "anointed" in the Greek probably is more natural if understood as David being appointed as the Lord's anointed, rather than the oracle being about "the" Messianic anointed one.

                    Also, the LXX does not translate the Hebrew ne'um as "oracle," but rather as "faithful," with reference to David. This further indicates that the LXX did not understand the anointed as the Messiah, because the phrase cannot even be taken to refer to the oracle at all, but is part of David's introduction of himself. In order for the phrase to mean that the oracle is "concerning the Messiah," it would have to be attached grammatically to the "last words of David" rather than a further description of David's faithfulness in the LXX.

                    -Drew

                    ________________________________
                    From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 6:17 PM
                    Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

                    Hi Drew,

                    Just to follow up - I was intrigued with a note in John Sailhamer's
                    Introduction to OT Theology (pp 215-23?) where he make mention of the LXX
                    reading it as concerning or about. This makes the 'oracle' of David about
                    the anointed or concerning the anointed of the God . . . It seems like a
                    stretch, however Sailhamer is expert on LXX translation. What do you think?

                    Best,

                    J

                    On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Drew Longacre <drewlongacre@...>wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi John,
                    >
                    > I would say for starters that such a use of the pronoun seems unlikely in
                    > the Hebrew. "heqim 'al" is usually used for someone being established as an
                    > authority over someone or else as an enemy against someone. Neither of these
                    > fits the context here, and it is intrinsically unlikely that the LXX would
                    > have understood it any other way.
                    >
                    > As far as the Greek pronoun goes, Liddell and Scott mention both the
                    > concepts of authority and enmity, but never a vague "concerning." The
                    > "Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint" says exactly the same thing.
                    > Unless you are prepared to say that David is set as an authority over or
                    > enemy against the anointed, you would be hard-pressed to argue that epi +
                    > accusative in this context means anything but how Brenton translated it.
                    >
                    > Thus, the translation "concerning" has problems on both the Hebrew and
                    > Greek levels and is quite unlikely. Unless there are strong contextual
                    > indicators to indicate otherwise, Brenton's translation should probably be
                    > accepted. It seems like both the MT and LXX present David as the anointed in
                    > 23:1.
                    >
                    > -Drew
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
                    > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:12 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Drew,
                    >
                    > Thanks for your response to my query. I am aware of Brenton's translation
                    > and the fact that translating the epi as concerning would not align with
                    > the MT. However, it seems that the LXX is reading the 'al' as a preposition
                    > and not with a disjunctive accent (as well as the Vulgate). I'm interested
                    > to know if it is possible to translate the epi as 'concerning' without the
                    > influence of Brenton's translation or the MT's late vocalized reading.
                    > Perhaps there is more going on in the translation - like in the targumim or
                    > the LXX of Jeremiah.
                    >
                    > Best,
                    >
                    > J
                    >
                    > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Drew Longacre <drewlongacre@...
                    > >wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi John,
                    > >
                    > > Brenton translated the LXX phrase "and faithful the man whom the Lord
                    > > raised up to be the anointed of the God of Jacob." The epi is probably
                    > not
                    > > to be translated "about" or "concerning," because that would seem to
                    > imply
                    > > that the anointed is one other than David, which in this context does not
                    > > fit well. There appear to be significant differences in the Greek texts
                    > as
                    > > well, which must be considered. The MT, however, breaks the sentence up
                    > > between'al and meshiah. Another complicating factor is that 4QSam(a)
                    > reads
                    > > heqim 'el mashiah in this verse. The Hiphil clearly aligns with the LXX
                    > > against the MT.
                    > >
                    > > The LXX text could probably be reconstructed in one of two ways:
                    > >
                    > > 1) heqim 'el mashiah as in 4QSam(a), "whom God raised up to be the
                    > > anointed..."
                    > >
                    > > 2) heqim 'al mashiah, "whom he [secondarily explicated with "the Lord"]
                    > > raised up to be the anointed..."
                    > >
                    > > The first reconstruction is probably more grammatical in Hebrew, but the
                    > > second accounts more easily for the Greek epi.
                    > >
                    > > Have fun!
                    > >
                    > > Drew Longacre
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>
                    > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 3:49 AM
                    > > Subject: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I wondered if someone could give me an opinion of the LXX's rendering of
                    > > the
                    > > * 'al* ('on high') in 2 Sam 23:1. How would one translate the *epi* in
                    > that
                    > >
                    > > verse? Also is the accent conjunctive or disjunctive? I'm interested to
                    > > know
                    > > if the *epi* could be translated as 'concerning' or 'about' as if it is
                    > > reading the *'al *with a *patach* and not a *qamets* in the MT, changing
                    > > the
                    > > reading of *'al* as a substantive and instead reading it as a
                    > >
                    > > preposition. interesting
                    > > variants? Any help would be great. Much Thanks.
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ken Penner
                    Dick wrote: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.” I don’t have DJD 17
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 15, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dick wrote:
                      “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                      I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the typical translation of אל.

                      Ken


                      Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                      Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                      http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                      St. Francis Xavier University
                      kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner@...>




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John Milton
                      Hi Ken, I ve attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17. Thanks, J ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 15, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Ken,

                        I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.

                        Thanks,

                        J

                        On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > Dick wrote:
                        > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                        > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                        > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the
                        > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me
                        > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew
                        > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                        > typical translation of אל.
                        >
                        > Ken
                        >
                        >
                        > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                        > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                        > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                        > St. Francis Xavier University
                        > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner@...>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ken Penner
                        Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great. Cheers, Ken Ken M. Penner,
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 15, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                          Cheers,
                          Ken

                          Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                          Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                          St. Francis Xavier University
                          902-867-2265
                          kpenner@...



                          From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Milton
                          Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



                          Hi Ken,

                          I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.

                          Thanks,

                          J

                          On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Dick wrote:
                          > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                          > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                          > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the
                          > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me
                          > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew
                          > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                          > typical translation of אל.
                          >
                          > Ken
                          >
                          >
                          > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                          > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                          > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                          > St. Francis Xavier University
                          > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • andrew fincke
                          Dear Ken, Here it is! The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 15, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Ken,
                            Here it is!
                            The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                            Andrew Fincke


                            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            From: kpenner@...
                            Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                            Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                            Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                            Cheers,
                            Ken

                            Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                            Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                            St. Francis Xavier University
                            902-867-2265
                            kpenner@...



                            From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Milton
                            Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



                            Hi Ken,

                            I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.

                            Thanks,

                            J

                            On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > Dick wrote:
                            > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                            > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                            > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the
                            > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me
                            > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew
                            > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                            > typical translation of אל.
                            >
                            > Ken
                            >
                            >
                            > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                            > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                            > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                            > St. Francis Xavier University
                            > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ken Penner
                            Thanks, Andy. I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 16, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks, Andy.
                              I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?
                              Ken


                              From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrew fincke
                              Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



                              Dear Ken,
                              Here it is!
                              The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                              Andrew Fincke


                              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                              From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                              Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                              Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                              Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                              Cheers,
                              Ken

                              Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                              Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                              St. Francis Xavier University
                              902-867-2265
                              kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>



                              From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John Milton
                              Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



                              Hi Ken,

                              I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.

                              Thanks,

                              J

                              On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > Dick wrote:
                              > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                              > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                              > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the
                              > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me
                              > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew
                              > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                              > typical translation of אל.
                              >
                              > Ken
                              >
                              >
                              > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                              > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                              > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                              > St. Francis Xavier University
                              > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • andrew fincke
                              Ken et al., Sorry about the 1) s. They are displaced and belong before the Kgs : 1 Kgs 14:14 and 1 Kgs 15:4. Otherwise the citation of DJD 17 is
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 16, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                'Ken et al.,
                                Sorry about the "1)"s. They are displaced and belong before the "Kgs": "1 Kgs 14:14" and "1 Kgs 15:4." Otherwise the citation of DJD 17 is correct with the exception that the Gothic symbol for "masoretic text" is a nonGothic "M," and the Gothic symbol for "Old Latin" has been expanded to "Lucianic Greek manuscripts." The discussion in DJD 17 seeks nothing but to advance 4QSam-a, which Cross discovered and made readable and most of whose fragments he identified. That in his latter days he went a little overboard in making speculative identifications of illegible fragments doesn't detract from his epochal achievement, nor from Dick Saley's contribution in getting Cross' thinking - reminiscences? - in print. The fly in the ointment is "Old Greek," a term which McCarter, 477 (see the DJD quote) studiously avoids. Best I can do is give you this citation from Herbert, Reconstructing Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Method Applied to the Reconstruction of 4QSam-a, STJD 22, Leiden (Brill), 1977, 190: "Ulrich (113-114) claims that "Vaticanus failed to understand M and in its literalism inserted into the OG text επι (for על) before χριστον, thus distorting the meaning,' but this is ... conjectural." By "Ulrich" I assume he means The Qumran Text of Samuel and Josephus, 1978.
                                Andrew Fincke





                                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                From: kpenner@...
                                Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:06:58 -0300
                                Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





                                Thanks, Andy.
                                I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?
                                Ken


                                From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrew fincke
                                Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



                                Dear Ken,
                                Here it is!
                                The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                Andrew Fincke


                                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                Cheers,
                                Ken

                                Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                St. Francis Xavier University
                                902-867-2265
                                kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>



                                From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John Milton
                                Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



                                Hi Ken,

                                I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.

                                Thanks,

                                J

                                On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                > Dick wrote:
                                > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                                > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the
                                > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me
                                > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew
                                > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                                > typical translation of אל.
                                >
                                > Ken
                                >
                                >
                                > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                > St. Francis Xavier University
                                > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Saley, Richard
                                Hi Ken, In your last comments on the subject you state: I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 16, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Ken,

                                  In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?' Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Let me see if I can explain:

                                  1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes Hebrew על as you have noted.

                                  2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι, presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.

                                  3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also reflects Hebrew אל.

                                  4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S) and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance, completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).

                                  5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the Lucianic tradition).

                                  6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.

                                  I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Dick


                                  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                  Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                  Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                  Harvard University
                                  Six Divinity Avenue
                                  Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                  Tel: 617-495-4239
                                  Fax: 617-496-8904
                                  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                  ________________________________________
                                  From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...]
                                  Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                  To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

                                  Thanks, Andy.

                                  I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?

                                  Ken





                                  From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrew fincke

                                  Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM

                                  To: lxx@yahoogroups.com

                                  Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                  Dear Ken,

                                  Here it is!

                                  The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).

                                  Andrew Fincke





                                  To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>

                                  From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>

                                  Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300

                                  Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















                                  Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Ken



                                  Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.

                                  Assistant Professor, Religious Studies

                                  St. Francis Xavier University

                                  902-867-2265

                                  kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>







                                  From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John Milton

                                  Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM

                                  To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>

                                  Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                  Hi Ken,



                                  I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.



                                  Thanks,



                                  J



                                  On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:



                                  > **

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Dick wrote:

                                  > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of

                                  > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”

                                  > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the

                                  > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me

                                  > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew

                                  > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the

                                  > typical translation of אל.

                                  >

                                  > Ken

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.

                                  > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:

                                  > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot

                                  > St. Francis Xavier University

                                  > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Ken Penner
                                  Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick. One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or επι? In point #5 and 6 below,
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 17, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.

                                    One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or επι?
                                    In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.

                                    Ken

                                    Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                    Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                    http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                    kpenner@...



                                    From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley, Richard
                                    Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                    Cc: Saley, Richard
                                    Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



                                    Hi Ken,

                                    In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?' Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Let me see if I can explain:

                                    1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes Hebrew על as you have noted.

                                    2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι, presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.

                                    3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also reflects Hebrew אל.

                                    4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S) and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance, completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).

                                    5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the Lucianic tradition).

                                    6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.

                                    I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.

                                    Cheers,
                                    Dick


                                    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                    Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                    Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                    Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                    Harvard University
                                    Six Divinity Avenue
                                    Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                    Tel: 617-495-4239
                                    Fax: 617-496-8904
                                    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                    ________________________________________
                                    From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                    Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

                                    Thanks, Andy.

                                    I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?

                                    Ken





                                    From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew fincke

                                    Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM

                                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>

                                    Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                    Dear Ken,

                                    Here it is!

                                    The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).

                                    Andrew Fincke





                                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>

                                    From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>

                                    Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300

                                    Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















                                    Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Ken



                                    Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.

                                    Assistant Professor, Religious Studies

                                    St. Francis Xavier University

                                    902-867-2265

                                    kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>







                                    From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John Milton

                                    Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM

                                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>

                                    Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                    Hi Ken,



                                    I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.



                                    Thanks,



                                    J



                                    On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:



                                    > **

                                    >

                                    >

                                    > Dick wrote:

                                    > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of

                                    > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”

                                    > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the

                                    > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me

                                    > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew

                                    > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the

                                    > typical translation of אל.

                                    >

                                    > Ken

                                    >

                                    >

                                    > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.

                                    > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:

                                    > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot

                                    > St. Francis Xavier University

                                    > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>

                                    >

                                    >

                                    >

                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                    >

                                    >

                                    >



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Saley, Richard
                                    Hi Ken, No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous!
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 17, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Ken,

                                      No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies . . .

                                      I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige recension."

                                      Cheers,
                                      Dick
                                      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                      Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                      Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                      Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                      Harvard University
                                      Six Divinity Avenue
                                      Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                      Tel: 617-495-4239
                                      Fax: 617-496-8904
                                      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                      ________________________________________
                                      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...]
                                      Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

                                      Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.



                                      One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or επι?

                                      In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.



                                      Ken



                                      Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.

                                      Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:

                                      http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/

                                      kpenner@...







                                      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley, Richard

                                      Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM

                                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com

                                      Cc: Saley, Richard

                                      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                      Hi Ken,



                                      In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?' Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Let me see if I can explain:



                                      1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes Hebrew על as you have noted.



                                      2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι, presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.



                                      3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also reflects Hebrew אל.



                                      4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S) and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance, completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).



                                      5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the Lucianic tradition).



                                      6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.



                                      I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.



                                      Cheers,

                                      Dick





                                      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                      Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.

                                      Lecturer on the Ancient Near East

                                      Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations

                                      Harvard University

                                      Six Divinity Avenue

                                      Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA

                                      Tel: 617-495-4239

                                      Fax: 617-496-8904

                                      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



                                      ________________________________________

                                      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]

                                      Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM

                                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>

                                      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



                                      Thanks, Andy.



                                      I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?



                                      Ken











                                      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew fincke



                                      Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM



                                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



                                      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















                                      Dear Ken,



                                      Here it is!



                                      The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).



                                      Andrew Fincke











                                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



                                      From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>



                                      Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300



                                      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1































                                      Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.



                                      Cheers,



                                      Ken







                                      Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.



                                      Assistant Professor, Religious Studies



                                      St. Francis Xavier University



                                      902-867-2265



                                      kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>















                                      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John Milton



                                      Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM



                                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



                                      Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















                                      Hi Ken,







                                      I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.







                                      Thanks,







                                      J







                                      On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:







                                      > **



                                      >



                                      >



                                      > Dick wrote:



                                      > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of



                                      > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”



                                      > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the



                                      > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me



                                      > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew



                                      > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the



                                      > typical translation of אל.



                                      >



                                      > Ken



                                      >



                                      >



                                      > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.



                                      > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:



                                      > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot



                                      > St. Francis Xavier University



                                      > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>



                                      >



                                      >



                                      >



                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      >



                                      >



                                      >







                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











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                                    • andrew fincke
                                      Dear Ken and Dick, Here’s a selection of places where אל and על are confused in 1-2 Samuel. Underlined is the evidence from 4QSam-a. The three
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 17, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Ken and Dick,
                                        Here’s a selection of places where אל and על are confused in 1-2 Samuel. Underlined is the evidence from 4QSam-a. The three interesting places are 12710, 20327 and 22405. At 12710 I considered κατα to be the equivalent of “into” and translated Vaticanus/Lucianic “and to the south of the Kenezei.” But the evidence of 4QSam-a, which agrees with Vaticanus and Lucianic at the second member of the trio with אל = κατα for על of the masoretic text suggests that κατα can be interpreted both ways – אל and על. At 20327 – treated extensively by Cross/Saley at p. 114 – we have עד in 4QSam-a for nothing in the masoretic text and εις in Vaticanus and επι in the Lucianic group. Here the Lucianic Greek scribes read 4QSam-a עד as על – a common mistake. Lamed and dalet are identical when lamed has its shaft stripped, and delta δ and lamda λ are identical in uncial script (Δ and Λ). At 22405, where we have no 4QSam-a evidence, Vaticanus incorporates אֵל into the place-name “Yezer” to get “Eliezer.” For the unitiated, “into” and “to” correspond to אל, while “on” and “upon” correspond to על. Where we have περι “concerning” in the Greek, that is the equivalent of על as in “spoke over” = “spoke about.” To the form: "10227" is 1 Samuel 2:27.





                                        Verse

                                        Hebrew

                                        Greek-Vaticanus

                                        Greek-Lucianic


                                        10110

                                        She prayed on the Lord

                                        She prayed to the Lord

                                        (same)


                                        10113

                                        on her heart

                                        in her heart

                                        (same)


                                        10127

                                        I prayed to this lad

                                        I prayed over this lad

                                        (same)


                                        10211

                                        And Alkana walked … upon his house

                                        (omit)

                                        And they walked … to their house


                                        10312

                                        I will fulfill to Eli all that I said to his house

                                        I will fulfill over Eli all that I said to his house

                                        I will fulfill over Eli all that I said over his house


                                        10314

                                        I swore to Eli’s house

                                        (same)

                                        (same)


                                        10419

                                        into the capture of the ark

                                        that the ark was captured

                                        (same)


                                        10420

                                        standing on her

                                        standing to her

                                        (same)


                                        10421

                                        into the capture of the ark of God and into her father-in-law and her husband

                                        over the capture of the ark of God and over her father-in-law and over her husband

                                        (same)


                                        10504

                                        to the threshold

                                        on the threshold … on the doorstep

                                        (same)


                                        10506

                                        And the Lord’s hand was heavy to the Ashdodites

                                        And the Lord’s hand was heavy on Azota

                                        (same)


                                        10608

                                        put the ark … to the cart

                                        put the ark … on the cart

                                        (same)


                                        10611

                                        put the ark … to the cart

                                        put the ark … on the cart

                                        (same)


                                        10612

                                        on the way of Beyt Shemesh

                                        to the way of Beyt Shemesh

                                        (same)


                                        10615

                                        and they placed (it) to the rock

                                        and they placed (it) on the rock

                                        (same)


                                        10906

                                        we walked upon it

                                        we walked to it

                                        (same)


                                        11219

                                        we added upon all our sins

                                        we added to all our sins

                                        we added upon all our sins


                                        11404

                                        to pass over on the Philistine outpost

                                        to pass over the Philistine outpost

                                        to pass over to the Philistine outpost


                                        11410

                                        Come up on us!

                                        Come up to us!

                                        (same)


                                        11432

                                        jumped … to the plunder

                                        (same)

                                        jumped … on the plunder


                                        11433

                                        to eat on the blood

                                        to eat with the blood

                                        (same)


                                        11519

                                        And you did to the plunder

                                        But you hurried to be placed on the plunder

                                        But you rushed on the plunder


                                        11535

                                        He mourned to Saul

                                        He mourned over Saul

                                        (same)


                                        11703

                                        And Philistines stood to the mountain on this side, and Israel stood to the mountain on this side

                                        And Philistines stood on the mountain on this side, and Israel stood on the mountain on this side

                                        And Philistines stood on the mountain on this side, and Israel stood from the mountain on this side


                                        11751

                                        And he stood to the Philistine

                                        And he stood on him

                                        (same)


                                        11913

                                        And she placed (them) to the bed

                                        And she placed (them) on the bed

                                        (same)


                                        12024

                                        He sat on the bread to eat (keri: He sat at the bread to eat)

                                        He came on the table to eat

                                        (same)


                                        12025

                                        He sat on his seat … at the seat (next to) the wall

                                        He sat on his seat … on the seat by the wall

                                        He sat on his seat … by the wall


                                        12114

                                        And his spittle went down to his chin

                                        And his spittle went down on his chin

                                        (same)


                                        12206

                                        standing on him

                                        standing to him

                                        (same)


                                        12207

                                        standing on him

                                        standing to him

                                        (same)


                                        12217

                                        standing on him

                                        standing to him

                                        standing on him


                                        12423

                                        went up on the fortress

                                        went up into the Messera

                                        (same)


                                        12513

                                        sat on the equipment

                                        sat with the equipment

                                        sat upon the equipment


                                        12517

                                        on our lord and on all his house

                                        into our lord and into his house

                                        on our lord and on all his house


                                        12601

                                        on the face of the Yeshimon

                                        at the face of the Yeshimon

                                        (same)


                                        12708

                                        And they swarmed to the Geshurites

                                        And they swarmed on the Geshurites

                                        And they swarmed on the neighboring (peoples) and they extended on the Geshurites


                                        12710

                                        on the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmalites and to the south of the Kenites

                                        to the south of Judaea and to the south of Iesmega and to the south of Kenezei

                                        (same)


                                        12823

                                        And he sat to the bed

                                        And he sat on the bed

                                        (same)


                                        13001

                                        And the Amalekites swooped to the south and to Siklag

                                        And the Amalekites swooped on the south and on Siklag

                                        (same)


                                        13103

                                        And the warfare was heavy to Saul

                                        And the warfare was heavy on Saul

                                        (same)


                                        13111

                                        And they heard (the report) to him

                                        And they heard (the report)

                                        And they heard (the report) about him


                                        13014

                                        south of Kreti

                                        on the south of Kreti

                                        (same)


                                        20109

                                        Stand on me!

                                        (same)

                                        (same)


                                        20209

                                        And he made him king to Gilead and to the Assyrians and to Jezreel and to Ephraim and to Benjamin and to all of Israel

                                        And he made him king over the Gileaditin and over the Thaseiri and over Israel and over Ephraim and over Benjamin and over all Israel

                                        (same with Ezrei for Thaseiri)


                                        20219

                                        walk neither on the right nor on the left

                                        walk neither into the right nor into left

                                        (same)


                                        20221

                                        on your right or on your left

                                        into the right or into the left

                                        (same)


                                        20223

                                        to the guts

                                        upon the guts

                                        (same)


                                        20327

                                        And he smote him there the guts

                                        And he smote him there into the guts

                                        And he smote him there on the guts


                                        20329

                                        And let (the blood) dance on Joab’s head and to all his father’s house!

                                        Let (the blood) fall on Joab’s head and on all his father’s house!

                                        on Joab’s head and on all his father’s house!


                                        20332

                                        And he wept to Abner’s grave

                                        And he wept on his grave

                                        And he wept on Abner’s grave


                                        20333

                                        And the king lamented to Abner

                                        And the king lamented over Abner

                                        (same)


                                        20334

                                        to weep over him

                                        to weep him

                                        (same)


                                        20402

                                        was counted on Benjamin

                                        was counted to the sons of Benjamin

                                        (same)


                                        20603

                                        And they mounted the ark of God to a new cart

                                        And they mounted the ark of the Lord on a new cart

                                        And they mounted the ark of God on a new cart


                                        20603

                                        And they lifted it up from the house

                                        And he lifted it up into the house

                                        And he lifted it up from the house


                                        20606

                                        And he stretched out (his hand) to the ark

                                        And he stretched out his hand on the ark

                                        And he stretched out his hand to the ark


                                        20610

                                        And David didn’t want to bring to himself the ark of the Lord on the City of David

                                        And David didn’t want to bring to himself the ark of the covenant of the Lord to the City of David

                                        (same)


                                        20719

                                        And You also spoke to Your servant’s house

                                        And You spoke over Your servant’s house

                                        (same)


                                        20728

                                        And You spoke to Your servant these good things

                                        And You spoke over Your servant these good things

                                        (same)


                                        20807

                                        the golden shields that were to Hadadazar’s servants

                                        the golden shields that he made on Hadadazar’s servants

                                        the golden shields that were on Hadadazar’s servants


                                        21002

                                        to comfort him to his father

                                        to comfort him about his father

                                        (same)


                                        21116

                                        And when Joab guarded to the city he gave Uriah to the place

                                        And when Joab guarded on the city he placed Uriah to the place

                                        And when Joab guarded on the city he gave Uriah upon the place


                                        21123

                                        Because the men prevailed over us, and they went out to us to the field, and we were on them

                                        (same with “on us” for “to us”)

                                        Because the men prevailed on us, and the men went out upon us to the field, and we drove them


                                        21124

                                        And the archers shot to your servants

                                        (same)

                                        And the arrows reigned down on your servants


                                        21333

                                        Please don’t place to his heart!

                                        Please don’t place on his heart!

                                        (same)


                                        21339

                                        And (the spirit) of King David abated from going forth to Absalom

                                        (same)

                                        And the sprit of King David rested from going forth on Absalom


                                        21422

                                        And Joab fell to his face

                                        And Joab fell on his face

                                        (same)


                                        21430

                                        Joab’s portion to my hand

                                        the portion in Joab’s field next to me (i.e. “on my hand”)

                                        the portion neighboring us in Joab’s field


                                        21502

                                        on the hand of the way of the gate

                                        at the hand of the way of the gate

                                        on the way of the gate


                                        21712

                                        And we will come to him in one of the places where he is found, and we will camp on him

                                        And we will come to him in one of the places where we find him, and we will camp on him

                                        And we will come on him in one of the places where we find him, and we will terrify him


                                        21803

                                        They will not place to us heart

                                        They will not place upon us heart

                                        (same)


                                        21824

                                        And the watchman went to the roof of the gate to the wall

                                        (same)

                                        And the watchman walked on the roof of the gate on the wall


                                        21826

                                        And the watchman cried to the gate-keeper

                                        And the watchman cried to the gate

                                        And the watchman cried upon the gate


                                        21908

                                        speak on the heart

                                        speak into the heart

                                        speak on the heart


                                        21936

                                        burden to my lord, the king

                                        burden on my lord, the king

                                        (same)


                                        22010

                                        into the guts

                                        (same)

                                        upon the guts


                                        22015

                                        And they poured out an embankment to the city

                                        (same)

                                        And they poured out an embankment on the city


                                        22023

                                        And Joab (was) to all the army of Israel

                                        (same)

                                        And Joab (was) over all the army of Israel


                                        22101

                                        to Saul and to the house of blood

                                        on Saul and on his house the sin on account of him in the death of blood

                                        on Saul and on his house the sin on account of him killing in the death of blood


                                        22110

                                        And she stretched it out for herself to the rock

                                        (same)

                                        And she stretched it out for herself on the rock


                                        22310

                                        And his hand stuck to the sword

                                        (same)

                                        And his hand stuck on the sword


                                        22403

                                        And the Lord added to the people

                                        (same)

                                        And the Lord added on the people


                                        22404

                                        And the king’s word prevailed to Joab

                                        (same)

                                        And the king’s word prevailed over Joab


                                        22405

                                        and to Yezer

                                        and Eliezer (and אֵלiezer)

                                        and Iezer


                                        22407

                                        And they came to the south of Judah

                                        (same)

                                        And they came on the south of Judah


                                        22416

                                        And the Lord repented to the evil

                                        And the Lord repented over the evil

                                        (same)
                                        Andrew Fincke





                                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                        CC: saley@...
                                        From: saley@...
                                        Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:00:18 -0400
                                        Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1






                                        Hi Ken,

                                        No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies . . .

                                        I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige recension."

                                        Cheers,
                                        Dick
                                        <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                        Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                        Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                        Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                        Harvard University
                                        Six Divinity Avenue
                                        Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                        Tel: 617-495-4239
                                        Fax: 617-496-8904
                                        <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                        ________________________________________
                                        From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...]
                                        Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

                                        Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.



                                        One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or επι?

                                        In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.



                                        Ken



                                        Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.

                                        Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:

                                        http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/

                                        kpenner@...







                                        From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley, Richard

                                        Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM

                                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com

                                        Cc: Saley, Richard

                                        Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                        Hi Ken,



                                        In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?' Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Let me see if I can explain:



                                        1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes Hebrew על as you have noted.



                                        2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι, presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.



                                        3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also reflects Hebrew אל.



                                        4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S) and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance, completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).



                                        5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the Lucianic tradition).



                                        6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.



                                        I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.



                                        Cheers,

                                        Dick





                                        <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                        Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.

                                        Lecturer on the Ancient Near East

                                        Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations

                                        Harvard University

                                        Six Divinity Avenue

                                        Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA

                                        Tel: 617-495-4239

                                        Fax: 617-496-8904

                                        <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



                                        ________________________________________

                                        From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]

                                        Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM

                                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>

                                        Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



                                        Thanks, Andy.



                                        I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?



                                        Ken











                                        From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew fincke



                                        Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM



                                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



                                        Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















                                        Dear Ken,



                                        Here it is!



                                        The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).



                                        Andrew Fincke











                                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



                                        From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>



                                        Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300



                                        Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1































                                        Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.



                                        Cheers,



                                        Ken







                                        Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.



                                        Assistant Professor, Religious Studies



                                        St. Francis Xavier University



                                        902-867-2265



                                        kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>















                                        From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John Milton



                                        Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM



                                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



                                        Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















                                        Hi Ken,







                                        I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.







                                        Thanks,







                                        J







                                        On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:







                                        > **



                                        >



                                        >



                                        > Dick wrote:



                                        > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of



                                        > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”



                                        > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the



                                        > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me



                                        > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew



                                        > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the



                                        > typical translation of אל.



                                        >



                                        > Ken



                                        >



                                        >



                                        > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.



                                        > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:



                                        > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot



                                        > St. Francis Xavier University



                                        > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>



                                        >



                                        >



                                        >



                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        >



                                        >



                                        >







                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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                                        Yahoo! Groups Links









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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • John Milton
                                        Hi Ken and Dick, It still seems that the al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and al
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 18, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Ken and Dick,

                                          It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                          sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                          Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
                                          the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                          Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
                                          a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                          accent)?

                                          Best,

                                          John


                                          On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

                                          > **
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Ken,
                                          >
                                          > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
                                          > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
                                          > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
                                          > . .
                                          >
                                          > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                          > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                          > recension."
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          > Dick
                                          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                          > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                          > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                          > Harvard University
                                          > Six Divinity Avenue
                                          > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                          > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                          > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________________
                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
                                          > kpenner@...]
                                          > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
                                          > επι?
                                          >
                                          > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                          > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                          > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ken
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                          >
                                          > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                          >
                                          > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                          >
                                          > kpenner@...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
                                          > Richard
                                          >
                                          > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                          >
                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                          >
                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Ken,
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                          > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
                                          > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
                                          > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
                                          > Let me see if I can explain:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
                                          > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
                                          > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
                                          > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
                                          > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                          > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                          > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
                                          > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                          > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
                                          > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                          > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
                                          > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
                                          > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                          > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
                                          > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                          > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                          > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                          > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                          > Lucianic tradition).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                          > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                          > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
                                          > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
                                          > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
                                          > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                          > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          >
                                          > Dick
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >
                                          > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                          >
                                          > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                          >
                                          > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                          >
                                          > Harvard University
                                          >
                                          > Six Divinity Avenue
                                          >
                                          > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                          >
                                          > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                          >
                                          > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                          >
                                          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________________
                                          >
                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                          > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                          > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                          >
                                          > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                          >
                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          >
                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Thanks, Andy.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                          > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                          > come from, if not from על?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ken
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                          > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                          > fincke
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Dear Ken,
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Here it is!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                          > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
                                          > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
                                          > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
                                          > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
                                          > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
                                          > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                          > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                          > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
                                          > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                          > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
                                          > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Andrew Fincke
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
                                          > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ken
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > St. Francis Xavier University
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 902-867-2265
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                          > Milton
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Ken,
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Thanks,
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > J
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                          > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                          > wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > **
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Dick wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
                                          > the
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
                                          > me
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                          > Hebrew
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > typical translation of אל.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Ken
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                          > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                          > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • andrew fincke
                                          Dear John: 1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Oct 18, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear John:
                                            1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only prefigured – “was like” - Him.
                                            2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in 1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support this view.
                                            3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some additions from 4QSam-b.
                                            1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
                                            1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place called ‘Faith of God.’
                                            1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
                                            1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
                                            1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the was heavy on Saul.
                                            2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the king lamented over Abner.
                                            2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic: Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [ ] to Benjamin.
                                            There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls. The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then “to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
                                            Andrew Fincke





                                            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                            Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
                                            Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





                                            Hi Ken and Dick,

                                            It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                            sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                            Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
                                            the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                            Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
                                            a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                            accent)?

                                            Best,

                                            John

                                            On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hi Ken,
                                            >
                                            > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
                                            > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
                                            > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
                                            > . .
                                            >
                                            > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                            > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                            > recension."
                                            >
                                            > Cheers,
                                            > Dick
                                            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                            > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                            > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                            > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                            > Harvard University
                                            > Six Divinity Avenue
                                            > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                            > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                            > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                            >
                                            > ________________________________________
                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
                                            > kpenner@...]
                                            > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
                                            > επι?
                                            >
                                            > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                            > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                            > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Ken
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                            >
                                            > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                            >
                                            > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                            >
                                            > kpenner@...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
                                            > Richard
                                            >
                                            > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                            >
                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                            >
                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hi Ken,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                            > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
                                            > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
                                            > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
                                            > Let me see if I can explain:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
                                            > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
                                            > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
                                            > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
                                            > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                            > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                            > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
                                            > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                            > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
                                            > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                            > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
                                            > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
                                            > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                            > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
                                            > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                            > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                            > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                            > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                            > Lucianic tradition).
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                            > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                            > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
                                            > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
                                            > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
                                            > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                            > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Cheers,
                                            >
                                            > Dick
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                            >
                                            > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                            >
                                            > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                            >
                                            > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                            >
                                            > Harvard University
                                            >
                                            > Six Divinity Avenue
                                            >
                                            > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                            >
                                            > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                            >
                                            > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                            >
                                            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ________________________________________
                                            >
                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                            > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                            > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                            >
                                            > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                            >
                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            >
                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Thanks, Andy.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                            > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                            > come from, if not from על?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Ken
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                            > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                            > fincke
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Dear Ken,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Here it is!
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                            > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
                                            > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
                                            > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
                                            > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
                                            > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
                                            > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                            > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                            > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
                                            > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                            > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
                                            > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Andrew Fincke
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
                                            > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Cheers,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Ken
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > St. Francis Xavier University
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 902-867-2265
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            >
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                                            >
                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                            > Milton
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hi Ken,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Thanks,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > J
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                            > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                            > wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Dick wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
                                            > the
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
                                            > me
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                            > Hebrew
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > typical translation of אל.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Ken
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                            > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                            > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
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                                          • andrew fincke
                                            Dear John, Not to butt in on your conversation with Ken and Dick, but I’ve got an idea. At Psalm 63:1 (LXX 62:2) we have an hapax legomenon – the verb
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Oct 19, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Dear John,
                                              Not to butt in on your conversation with Ken and Dick, but I’ve got an idea. At Psalm 63:1 (LXX 62:2) we have an hapax legomenon – the verb כָּמָהּ – that is kama – which seems to mean “long for” in the verse: “O God, Thou art my God, earnestly do I seek Thee, Thirsted for Thee hath my soul, Longed for Thee hath my flesh, In a land dry and weary, without waters.” The phrase “Longed for Thee” was vocalized by the masoretes as kama leka, כָּמַהּ לְךָ. Problematic for you at 2 Sam 23:1 is הֻקַם עָל – that is, hukam al, which sounds like hu kama l, i.e. הוּא כָּמָהּ ל “he longed for” with ל introducing the longed for object, which in Psalm 63:1 is God. In 2 Sam 23:1 the subject is David, who – so it seems from his assertion in Psalm 63:1 – longed for “my God,” Who in 2 Samuel 23:1 is described as “the anointed God of Jacob.” David longed for his spiritual heir, the anointed Son of David. 2 Samuel 23:1 isn’t erroneous but rather reiterates Psalm 63:1 phonetically.
                                              Andrew Fincke




                                              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                              Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
                                              Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1






                                              Hi Ken and Dick,

                                              It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                              sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                              Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
                                              the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                              Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
                                              a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                              accent)?

                                              Best,

                                              John

                                              On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

                                              > **
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hi Ken,
                                              >
                                              > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
                                              > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
                                              > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
                                              > . .
                                              >
                                              > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                              > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                              > recension."
                                              >
                                              > Cheers,
                                              > Dick
                                              > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                              > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                              > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                              > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                              > Harvard University
                                              > Six Divinity Avenue
                                              > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                              > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                              > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                              > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________________
                                              > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
                                              > kpenner@...]
                                              > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                              > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                              >
                                              > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
                                              > επι?
                                              >
                                              > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                              > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                              > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Ken
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                              >
                                              > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                              >
                                              > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                              >
                                              > kpenner@...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
                                              > Richard
                                              >
                                              > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                              >
                                              > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                              >
                                              > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hi Ken,
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                              > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
                                              > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
                                              > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
                                              > Let me see if I can explain:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
                                              > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
                                              > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
                                              > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
                                              > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                              > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                              > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
                                              > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                              > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
                                              > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                              > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
                                              > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
                                              > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                              > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
                                              > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                              > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                              > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                              > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                              > Lucianic tradition).
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                              > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                              > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
                                              > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
                                              > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
                                              > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                              > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Cheers,
                                              >
                                              > Dick
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                              >
                                              > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                              >
                                              > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                              >
                                              > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                              >
                                              > Harvard University
                                              >
                                              > Six Divinity Avenue
                                              >
                                              > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                              >
                                              > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                              >
                                              > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                              >
                                              > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________________
                                              >
                                              > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                              > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                              > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                              >
                                              > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                              >
                                              > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >
                                              > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Thanks, Andy.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                              > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                              > come from, if not from על?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Ken
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                              > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                              > fincke
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Dear Ken,
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Here it is!
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                              > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
                                              > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
                                              > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
                                              > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
                                              > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
                                              > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                              > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                              > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
                                              > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                              > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
                                              > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Andrew Fincke
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                              > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
                                              > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Cheers,
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Ken
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > St. Francis Xavier University
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > 902-867-2265
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                              > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                              > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                              > Milton
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                              > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hi Ken,
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Thanks,
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > J
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                              > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                              > wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > **
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Dick wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
                                              > the
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
                                              > me
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                              > Hebrew
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > typical translation of אל.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Ken
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                              > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                              > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
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                                              > ------------------------------------
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                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • andrew fincke
                                              You see, John, The Lord was with David. We re told that repeatedly in Scripture - at 1 Samuel 18:12, 14 and 26; 2 Samuel 5:10 (1 Chron 11:9) and 7:3 (1 Chron
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Oct 20, 2011
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                You see, John,
                                                The Lord was with David. We're told that repeatedly in Scripture - at 1 Samuel 18:12, 14 and 26; 2 Samuel 5:10 (1 Chron 11:9) and 7:3 (1 Chron 17:2) and 9 (1 Chron 17:8); and 2 Samuel 14:17. Then why does Psalm 63:2 (LXX 62:2) put in David's mouth: "Longed for Thee hath my flesh" (Hebrew: kama leka besariy)? The answer to that question is at 2 Samuel 23:1: "He was stood on the Messiah, the God of Jacob." The Hebrew of "He was stood on" - which so troubles you - is hukam al (הֻקַם עָל), which sounds like hu kama l, i.e. "he longed for" (הוּא כָּמָהּ ל). David longed not for someone who was right there but rather for his spiritual heir - the Messiah.

                                                Andrew Fincke






                                                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                                Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
                                                Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1






                                                Hi Ken and Dick,

                                                It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                                sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                                Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
                                                the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                                Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
                                                a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                                accent)?

                                                Best,

                                                John

                                                On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

                                                > **
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hi Ken,
                                                >
                                                > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
                                                > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
                                                > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
                                                > . .
                                                >
                                                > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                                > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                                > recension."
                                                >
                                                > Cheers,
                                                > Dick
                                                > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                > Harvard University
                                                > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________________
                                                > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
                                                > kpenner@...]
                                                > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                >
                                                > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
                                                > επι?
                                                >
                                                > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                                > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                                > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Ken
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                >
                                                > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                                >
                                                > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                                >
                                                > kpenner@...
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
                                                > Richard
                                                >
                                                > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                                >
                                                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                                >
                                                > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hi Ken,
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                                > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
                                                > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
                                                > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
                                                > Let me see if I can explain:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
                                                > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
                                                > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
                                                > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
                                                > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                                > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                                > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
                                                > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                                > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
                                                > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                                > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
                                                > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
                                                > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                                > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
                                                > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                                > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                                > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                                > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                                > Lucianic tradition).
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
                                                > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
                                                > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
                                                > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                                > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Cheers,
                                                >
                                                > Dick
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                >
                                                > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                >
                                                > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                >
                                                > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                >
                                                > Harvard University
                                                >
                                                > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                >
                                                > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                >
                                                > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                >
                                                > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                >
                                                > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________________
                                                >
                                                > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                                > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                                > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                                >
                                                > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                                >
                                                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                >
                                                > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Thanks, Andy.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                                > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                                > come from, if not from על?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Ken
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                                > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                                > fincke
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Dear Ken,
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Here it is!
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                                > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
                                                > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
                                                > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
                                                > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
                                                > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
                                                > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                                > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                                > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
                                                > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                                > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
                                                > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Andrew Fincke
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
                                                > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Cheers,
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Ken
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > 902-867-2265
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                                > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                                > Milton
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hi Ken,
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Thanks,
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > J
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                > wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > **
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Dick wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
                                                > the
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
                                                > me
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                                > Hebrew
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > typical translation of אל.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Ken
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                                > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
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                                                > ------------------------------------
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                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • John Milton
                                                Hi Andrew, Thanks for your emails. What an interesting observation re. the link or echo found in Psalm 63:2. I read it and also found curious that there is
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Oct 21, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi Andrew,

                                                  Thanks for your emails. What an interesting observation re. the link or echo
                                                  found in Psalm 63:2. I read it and also found curious that there is clear
                                                  allusion to divine provision of nourishment in the desert (Moses and David).
                                                  God provides leaders for the people in the wilderness or exile. yet at the
                                                  end of the psalm there is a decisive turn: But the king will rejoice in God;
                                                  all who swear by God's name will praise him, while the mouths of liars will
                                                  be silenced. (Ps 63:11 NIV), which calls to mind the last words of Jacob and
                                                  the mention of of a victorious king from the tribe of Judah who will bring
                                                  peace and redemption (Gen 49, Num 24) And here we have a reflection of the
                                                  hope in the coming king from David himself - which recalls the (formulaic)
                                                  last words of David as well as the preceding poem (22:51).

                                                  My Best,

                                                  John

                                                  On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 9:12 PM, andrew fincke <finckea@...> wrote:

                                                  > **
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear John,
                                                  > Not to butt in on your conversation with Ken and Dick, but I’ve got an
                                                  > idea. At Psalm 63:1 (LXX 62:2) we have an hapax legomenon – the verb כָּמָהּ
                                                  > – that is kama – which seems to mean “long for” in the verse: “O God, Thou
                                                  > art my God, earnestly do I seek Thee, Thirsted for Thee hath my soul, Longed
                                                  > for Thee hath my flesh, In a land dry and weary, without waters.” The phrase
                                                  > “Longed for Thee” was vocalized by the masoretes as kama leka, כָּמַהּ לְךָ.
                                                  > Problematic for you at 2 Sam 23:1 is הֻקַם עָל – that is, hukam al, which
                                                  > sounds like hu kama l, i.e. הוּא כָּמָהּ ל “he longed for” with ל
                                                  > introducing the longed for object, which in Psalm 63:1 is God. In 2 Sam 23:1
                                                  > the subject is David, who – so it seems from his assertion in Psalm 63:1 –
                                                  > longed for “my God,” Who in 2 Samuel 23:1 is described as “the anointed God
                                                  > of Jacob.” David longed for his spiritual heir, the anointed Son of David. 2
                                                  > Samuel 23:1 isn’t erroneous but rather reiterates Psalm 63:1 phonetically.
                                                  > Andrew Fincke
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                                  > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
                                                  > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Ken and Dick,
                                                  >
                                                  > It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                                  > sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                                  > Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why
                                                  > does
                                                  > the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                                  > Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al
                                                  > as
                                                  > a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                                  > accent)?
                                                  >
                                                  > Best,
                                                  >
                                                  > John
                                                  >
                                                  > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > > **
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hi Ken,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
                                                  >
                                                  > > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It
                                                  > should
                                                  > > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.”
                                                  > Apologies .
                                                  > > . .
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                                  > > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                                  > > recension."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Cheers,
                                                  > > Dick
                                                  > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                  > > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                  > > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                  > > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                  > > Harvard University
                                                  > > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                  > > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                  > > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                  > > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                  > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ________________________________________
                                                  > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                                  > [
                                                  > > kpenner@...]
                                                  > > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                                  > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς
                                                  > or
                                                  > > επι?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                                  > > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                                  > > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ken
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                                  > >
                                                  > > kpenner@...
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                  > Saley,
                                                  > > Richard
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hi Ken,
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                                  > > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
                                                  >
                                                  > > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from
                                                  > על?'
                                                  > > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
                                                  >
                                                  > > Let me see if I can explain:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The
                                                  > best
                                                  > > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2
                                                  > Sam
                                                  > > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten
                                                  > by
                                                  > > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the
                                                  > basis
                                                  > > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                                  > > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                                  > > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a
                                                  > Vorlage
                                                  > > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                                  > > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition,
                                                  > also
                                                  > > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                                  > > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus
                                                  > (S)
                                                  > > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and
                                                  > Vaticanus
                                                  > > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                                  > > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
                                                  >
                                                  > > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                                  > > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                                  > > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                                  > > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                                  > > Lucianic tradition).
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew
                                                  > (and
                                                  > > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                  > > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
                                                  >
                                                  > > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by
                                                  > the
                                                  > > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
                                                  >
                                                  > > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                                  > > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Cheers,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dick
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Harvard University
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                  > >
                                                  > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ________________________________________
                                                  > >
                                                  > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                                  > > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken
                                                  > Penner
                                                  > > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks, Andy.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                                  > > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                                  > > come from, if not from על?
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ken
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                                  > > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                                  > > fincke
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
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                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dear Ken,
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Here it is!
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                                  > > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the
                                                  > falling
                                                  > > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the
                                                  > subsequent
                                                  > > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
                                                  >
                                                  > > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2
                                                  > Samuel
                                                  > > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
                                                  >
                                                  > > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                                  > > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                                  > > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula
                                                  > for
                                                  > > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                                  > > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם
                                                  > ...
                                                  > > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Andrew Fincke
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                  > > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                  > >
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                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
                                                  >
                                                  > > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Cheers,
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ken
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 902-867-2265
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
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                                                  > >
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                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                  > > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                                  > > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                                  > > Milton
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                  > > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
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                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hi Ken,
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks,
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > J
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                  > > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                  > > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > **
                                                  > >
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                                                  > > >
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                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Dick wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
                                                  >
                                                  > > the
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems
                                                  > to
                                                  > > me
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                                  > > Hebrew
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is
                                                  > the
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > typical translation of אל.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Ken
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                                  > > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                  > > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
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                                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • John Milton
                                                  Dear All, One more thing. Barthelemy notes in his Critique Textuelle de l Ancien Testament (Orbis et Orientalis 50/1) page 310: * * *huqam al* [A] M V T //
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Oct 26, 2011
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Dear All,

                                                    One more thing. Barthelemy notes in his Critique Textuelle de l'Ancien
                                                    Testament (Orbis et Orientalis 50/1) page 310:
                                                    *
                                                    *
                                                    *huqam 'al* [A] M V T // facil : Qa G *heqim el* ---> rest : g *anastehsen
                                                    kurios epi* / theol. S clav *heqim 'ol.*
                                                    *
                                                    *
                                                    Ici Qa, avec* heqim el* (Ulrich 113) a preserve la Vorlage du *G ancien
                                                    (antiochienne) :* an anestehsen o theos*. La recension palestinienne, ayant
                                                    sous les yeux *hqm 'l* et estimant *'al *non traduit, le traduit par
                                                    *epi*sans retoucher le verbe, mais en se servant de
                                                    *Kurios* pour expliter le sujet de ce verbe, comme elle le fera encore au
                                                    v.4

                                                    [my translation] Here Qumran along with *heqim el* (Ulrich 113) has
                                                    preserved the vorlage of *G ancient[OG] (antiochene or lucianic): * an
                                                    anestehsen o theos. *The palestinian(?) recension, saw *hqm 'l *and believed
                                                    that the *'al* not to be translated, they translated it by *epi* without
                                                    touching or linking it to the verb, but so that it is linked to *Kurios* in
                                                    order to explain the subject of this verb, as it will also do in verse 4.

                                                    Any thoughts on this would be most welcome - my apologies for the crude
                                                    transliteration and poor translation
                                                    *
                                                    *
                                                    *
                                                    *
                                                    On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:57 PM, John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>wrote:

                                                    > Hi Andrew,
                                                    >
                                                    > Thanks for your emails. What an interesting observation re. the link or
                                                    > echo found in Psalm 63:2. I read it and also found curious that there is
                                                    > clear allusion to divine provision of nourishment in the desert (Moses and
                                                    > David). God provides leaders for the people in the wilderness or exile. yet
                                                    > at the end of the psalm there is a decisive turn: But the king will rejoice
                                                    > in God; all who swear by God's name will praise him, while the mouths of
                                                    > liars will be silenced. (Ps 63:11 NIV), which calls to mind the last words
                                                    > of Jacob and the mention of of a victorious king from the tribe of Judah who
                                                    > will bring peace and redemption (Gen 49, Num 24) And here we have a
                                                    > reflection of the hope in the coming king from David himself - which recalls
                                                    > the (formulaic) last words of David as well as the preceding poem (22:51).
                                                    >
                                                    > My Best,
                                                    >
                                                    > John
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 9:12 PM, andrew fincke <finckea@...>wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >> **
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Dear John,
                                                    >> Not to butt in on your conversation with Ken and Dick, but I’ve got an
                                                    >> idea. At Psalm 63:1 (LXX 62:2) we have an hapax legomenon – the verb כָּמָהּ
                                                    >> – that is kama – which seems to mean “long for” in the verse: “O God, Thou
                                                    >> art my God, earnestly do I seek Thee, Thirsted for Thee hath my soul, Longed
                                                    >> for Thee hath my flesh, In a land dry and weary, without waters.” The phrase
                                                    >> “Longed for Thee” was vocalized by the masoretes as kama leka, כָּמַהּ לְךָ.
                                                    >> Problematic for you at 2 Sam 23:1 is הֻקַם עָל – that is, hukam al, which
                                                    >> sounds like hu kama l, i.e. הוּא כָּמָהּ ל “he longed for” with ל
                                                    >> introducing the longed for object, which in Psalm 63:1 is God. In 2 Sam 23:1
                                                    >> the subject is David, who – so it seems from his assertion in Psalm 63:1 –
                                                    >> longed for “my God,” Who in 2 Samuel 23:1 is described as “the anointed God
                                                    >> of Jacob.” David longed for his spiritual heir, the anointed Son of David. 2
                                                    >> Samuel 23:1 isn’t erroneous but rather reiterates Psalm 63:1 phonetically.
                                                    >> Andrew Fincke
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >> From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                                    >> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
                                                    >> Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Hi Ken and Dick,
                                                    >>
                                                    >> It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                                    >> sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why
                                                    >> does
                                                    >> the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                                    >> Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al
                                                    >> as
                                                    >> a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                                    >> accent)?
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Best,
                                                    >>
                                                    >> John
                                                    >>
                                                    >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> > **
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Hi Ken,
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that
                                                    >> “the
                                                    >> > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It
                                                    >> should
                                                    >> > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.”
                                                    >> Apologies .
                                                    >> > . .
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                                    >> > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                                    >> > recension."
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Cheers,
                                                    >> > Dick
                                                    >> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                    >> > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                    >> > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                    >> > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                    >> > Harvard University
                                                    >> > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                    >> > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                    >> > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                    >> > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                    >> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > ________________________________________
                                                    >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                                    >> [
                                                    >> > kpenner@...]
                                                    >> > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                                    >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς
                                                    >> or
                                                    >> > επι?
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                                    >>
                                                    >> > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                                    >> > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Ken
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > kpenner@...
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                    >> Saley,
                                                    >> > Richard
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Hi Ken,
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                                    >> > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and
                                                    >> not
                                                    >> > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from
                                                    >> על?'
                                                    >> > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old
                                                    >> Greek.
                                                    >> > Let me see if I can explain:
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The
                                                    >> best
                                                    >> > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2
                                                    >> Sam
                                                    >> > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been
                                                    >> overwritten by
                                                    >> > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the
                                                    >> basis
                                                    >> > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                                    >> > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                                    >> > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a
                                                    >> Vorlage
                                                    >> > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                                    >> > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition,
                                                    >> also
                                                    >> > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                                    >> > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus
                                                    >> (S)
                                                    >> > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and
                                                    >> Vaticanus
                                                    >> > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                                    >> > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his
                                                    >> brilliance,
                                                    >> > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                                    >> > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                                    >> > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                                    >> > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                                    >> > Lucianic tradition).
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew
                                                    >> (and
                                                    >> > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                    >>
                                                    >> > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other
                                                    >> data
                                                    >> > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by
                                                    >> the
                                                    >> > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late
                                                    >> Hebrew
                                                    >> > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                                    >> > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Cheers,
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Dick
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Harvard University
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > ________________________________________
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                                    >> > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken
                                                    >> Penner
                                                    >> > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Thanks, Andy.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                                    >> > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                                    >>
                                                    >> > come from, if not from על?
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Ken
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                                    >> > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                                    >> > fincke
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Dear Ken,
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Here it is!
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                                    >>
                                                    >> > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the
                                                    >> falling
                                                    >> > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the
                                                    >> subsequent
                                                    >> > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with
                                                    >> 'e-class'
                                                    >> > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2
                                                    >> Samuel
                                                    >> > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading
                                                    >> is
                                                    >> > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                                    >> > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                                    >> > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula
                                                    >> for
                                                    >> > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                                    >>
                                                    >> > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם
                                                    >> ...
                                                    >> > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Andrew Fincke
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                    >> > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:
                                                    >> kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments.
                                                    >> If
                                                    >> > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Cheers,
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Ken
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > 902-867-2265
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                    >> > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                                    >> > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                                    >>
                                                    >> > Milton
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                    >> > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Hi Ken,
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Thanks,
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > J
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                    >> > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> > wrote:
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > **
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > Dick wrote:
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading
                                                    >> of
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you
                                                    >> summarize
                                                    >> > the
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems
                                                    >> to
                                                    >> > me
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                                    >> > Hebrew
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is
                                                    >> the
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > typical translation of אל.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > Ken
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                                    >> > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                    >> > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> >
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                                                    >> > >
                                                    >> >
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                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                                    >> > ------------------------------------
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >> >
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                                                    >> > ------------------------------------
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                                                    >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                  • andrew fincke
                                                    Dear John, Thanks for the translation. If you’d like some more French on the subject, get hold of R. Tournay, “Les ‘dernières paroles de David’, 2
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Oct 28, 2011
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Dear John,
                                                      Thanks for the translation. If you’d like some more French on the subject, get hold of R. Tournay, “Les ‘dernières paroles de David’, 2 Samuel 23:1-7” in RB 88/4 (1981), 481-504. Meanwhile here are some clips from G. Lete, “David’s Farewell Oracle (2 Samuel XXIII 1-7): A Literary Analysis” in VT 34/4 (1984), 414-438 and N. Richardson, “The Last Words of David: Some Notes on II Samuel 23:1-7” in JBL 90 (1971), 257-266:

                                                      (Lete) hüqam cäl: the three alternatives are equally sound: hüqam cäl (MT; cf. Gevirtz), hêqîm V/ (4QSama; cf. Cross), hëqîm cäl (cf. Carlson, Richardson, Freedman, Mettinger); in the three cases we have an asyndetic relative clause. The antithetic parallel ben yïsay does not help us to decide, for it only brings into relief the contrast between David's human, "low", origin and his "establishing" or "exalting" (by God): "who was placed on high (by God)"/"whom the Most High/God established (on high/on the throne)". In one case the grammatical subject5 becomes more explicit, in the other, the adverbial modifier.

                                                      (Richardson) hqm. Vocalize hêqlm (hiph. pf.).12 This is the older spelling which later became hqym. In Hebrew orthography medial matres lectionis begin to appear about 700 B.c., as evidenced by ^rwrlz in the late eighth century Shebna inscription and by zyp on the royal seal impressions.14 In 4QSama we read hqym.15
                                                      על. Long ago E. Dhorme suggested that על should be viewed as an abbreviation for עליון.1Q Both of these, along with עלי, probably derive from the same root. However, in the light of cly ncm in Ugaritic (126:III:6f., 8f. [Herdner, CTA, l6:III:6f., 8f.] ) as an epithet of Baal and the name yhwcly in the Samaria ostracon No. 55,17 על would be better viewed as an alternative to עליון rather than an abbreviation. In 4QSama we find אל; the LXX reads κύριος. This change from אל to על may be noted if one will compare Ps 18:42 with II Sam 22:42, where the former has על while the latter has אל. "The redactor of II Sam xxii did not understand the meaning of על which he altered to the preposition אל" (M. Dahood, Psalms I1 -5O [AB 16; 1966], p. 117). 8 It is also possible that this change from אל to על is the result of the confusion of laryngeals in the late period, as is so well illustrated in the Qumran documents. Whatever the reason, it seems beyond doubt that על as a divine epithet was original in both this text and in II Samuel 22 = Psalm 18. Finally the presence of אל in 4QSama strongly suggests that such an understanding of the text, rather than that על should be an adverbial accusative (as in the RSV), persisted into the first century.
                                                      9 W. F. Albright, Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan (1968), p. 13.
                                                      10 For a recent discussion, see M. Dahood, Psalms 111 101-150 (AB 17A; 1970), pp. 400ff.
                                                      n F. M. Cross, Jr., and D. N. Freedman, "A Royal Song of Thanksgiving," p. 34.
                                                      12 See H. P. Smith, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Books of Samuel (ICC; 1904), p. 382; S. Mowinckel, "'Die letzen Worte Davids' II Sam 23 1-7," ZAW,
                                                      45 (1927), pp. 32, 40.
                                                      13 Called to my attention by D. N. Freedman in his unpublished notes.
                                                      14 Y. Aharoni, "Three Hebrew Ostraca from Arad," BASOR, 197 (1970), pp. 20, n. 15.
                                                      *NAB.
                                                      19 E. Dhorme, Les livres de Samuel, in loe; see also H. Cazelles, "La titulature du roi David" in Melanges Bibliques rédigés en l'honneur de André Robert (1957), pp. 133f.; A. Johnson, Sacral Kingship in Ancient Israel (1967), p. 16; H. Nyberg, Studien zum Hoseabuch (1935), pp. 58ff.; "Studien zum Religions-wissenkampf," Archiv für Religionswissenschaft, 35 (1938), ρ. 329.

                                                      (Fincke) Seems to me that when Jonathan in pleading David’s case to Saul reminded the king that his “deeds serve you well” (1 Samuel 19:4) he was talking about the songs David composed to calm Saul’s tensions. See 1 Samuel 16:16 and 23. Now “his deeds” is מַעֲשָׂיו – that is ma‘asayv, for which LXX has ποιήματα αὐτοῦ. It doesn’t take a lot to see that מְשִׁיחַ “anointed one” at 2 Samuel 23:1 translates “Messiah,” which the scribe – working from dictation – erroneously jotted down instead of ma‘asayv, and that מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב is corrupt for מַעֲשָׂיו אֶל יָהּ יַעֲקֹב “his works (songs) to the LORD of Jacob,” which the following text in the verse corroborates with “and pleasant are the songs of Israel.” We don’t have יָהּ יַעֲקֺב “LORD of Jacob,” but we do have אֵל יַעֲקֺב “God of Jacob” at Psalm 146:5. As for “deed” = “song/psalm” in the case of David, see 1 Samuel 20:19: “where you were hidden in the day of the deed.” David spent his lonely time in hiding composing songs. LXX: ποιήματα “works, deeds, poems” at 1 Samuel 19:4 (see above) captures the ambiguity well. 2 Samuel 23:1 describes David as “the man put in charge of the poems to the God of Jacob” and concludes with “And the psalms of Israel are pleasant.”
                                                      Andrew Fincke




                                                      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                                      Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:51:05 -0400
                                                      Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1






                                                      Dear All,

                                                      One more thing. Barthelemy notes in his Critique Textuelle de l'Ancien
                                                      Testament (Orbis et Orientalis 50/1) page 310:
                                                      *
                                                      *
                                                      *huqam 'al* [A] M V T // facil : Qa G *heqim el* ---> rest : g *anastehsen
                                                      kurios epi* / theol. S clav *heqim 'ol.*
                                                      *
                                                      *
                                                      Ici Qa, avec* heqim el* (Ulrich 113) a preserve la Vorlage du *G ancien
                                                      (antiochienne) :* an anestehsen o theos*. La recension palestinienne, ayant
                                                      sous les yeux *hqm 'l* et estimant *'al *non traduit, le traduit par
                                                      *epi*sans retoucher le verbe, mais en se servant de
                                                      *Kurios* pour expliter le sujet de ce verbe, comme elle le fera encore au
                                                      v.4

                                                      [my translation] Here Qumran along with *heqim el* (Ulrich 113) has
                                                      preserved the vorlage of *G ancient[OG] (antiochene or lucianic): * an
                                                      anestehsen o theos. *The palestinian(?) recension, saw *hqm 'l *and believed
                                                      that the *'al* not to be translated, they translated it by *epi* without
                                                      touching or linking it to the verb, but so that it is linked to *Kurios* in
                                                      order to explain the subject of this verb, as it will also do in verse 4.

                                                      Any thoughts on this would be most welcome - my apologies for the crude
                                                      transliteration and poor translation
                                                      *
                                                      *
                                                      *
                                                      *
                                                      On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:57 PM, John Milton <johnisaacmilton@...>wrote:

                                                      > Hi Andrew,
                                                      >
                                                      > Thanks for your emails. What an interesting observation re. the link or
                                                      > echo found in Psalm 63:2. I read it and also found curious that there is
                                                      > clear allusion to divine provision of nourishment in the desert (Moses and
                                                      > David). God provides leaders for the people in the wilderness or exile. yet
                                                      > at the end of the psalm there is a decisive turn: But the king will rejoice
                                                      > in God; all who swear by God's name will praise him, while the mouths of
                                                      > liars will be silenced. (Ps 63:11 NIV), which calls to mind the last words
                                                      > of Jacob and the mention of of a victorious king from the tribe of Judah who
                                                      > will bring peace and redemption (Gen 49, Num 24) And here we have a
                                                      > reflection of the hope in the coming king from David himself - which recalls
                                                      > the (formulaic) last words of David as well as the preceding poem (22:51).
                                                      >
                                                      > My Best,
                                                      >
                                                      > John
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 9:12 PM, andrew fincke <finckea@...>wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >> **
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Dear John,
                                                      >> Not to butt in on your conversation with Ken and Dick, but I’ve got an
                                                      >> idea. At Psalm 63:1 (LXX 62:2) we have an hapax legomenon – the verb כָּמָהּ
                                                      >> – that is kama – which seems to mean “long for” in the verse: “O God, Thou
                                                      >> art my God, earnestly do I seek Thee, Thirsted for Thee hath my soul, Longed
                                                      >> for Thee hath my flesh, In a land dry and weary, without waters.” The phrase
                                                      >> “Longed for Thee” was vocalized by the masoretes as kama leka, כָּמַהּ לְךָ.
                                                      >> Problematic for you at 2 Sam 23:1 is הֻקַם עָל – that is, hukam al, which
                                                      >> sounds like hu kama l, i.e. הוּא כָּמָהּ ל “he longed for” with ל
                                                      >> introducing the longed for object, which in Psalm 63:1 is God. In 2 Sam 23:1
                                                      >> the subject is David, who – so it seems from his assertion in Psalm 63:1 –
                                                      >> longed for “my God,” Who in 2 Samuel 23:1 is described as “the anointed God
                                                      >> of Jacob.” David longed for his spiritual heir, the anointed Son of David. 2
                                                      >> Samuel 23:1 isn’t erroneous but rather reiterates Psalm 63:1 phonetically.
                                                      >> Andrew Fincke
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >> From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                                      >> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
                                                      >> Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Hi Ken and Dick,
                                                      >>
                                                      >> It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                                      >> sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why
                                                      >> does
                                                      >> the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                                      >> Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al
                                                      >> as
                                                      >> a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                                      >> accent)?
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Best,
                                                      >>
                                                      >> John
                                                      >>
                                                      >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >> > **
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Hi Ken,
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that
                                                      >> “the
                                                      >> > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It
                                                      >> should
                                                      >> > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.”
                                                      >> Apologies .
                                                      >> > . .
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                                      >> > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                                      >> > recension."
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Cheers,
                                                      >> > Dick
                                                      >> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                      >> > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                      >> > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                      >> > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                      >> > Harvard University
                                                      >> > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                      >> > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                      >> > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                      >> > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                      >> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > ________________________________________
                                                      >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                                      >> [
                                                      >> > kpenner@...]
                                                      >> > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                                      >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς
                                                      >> or
                                                      >> > επι?
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                                      >>
                                                      >> > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                                      >> > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Ken
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > kpenner@...
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                      >> Saley,
                                                      >> > Richard
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Hi Ken,
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                                      >> > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and
                                                      >> not
                                                      >> > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from
                                                      >> על?'
                                                      >> > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old
                                                      >> Greek.
                                                      >> > Let me see if I can explain:
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The
                                                      >> best
                                                      >> > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2
                                                      >> Sam
                                                      >> > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been
                                                      >> overwritten by
                                                      >> > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the
                                                      >> basis
                                                      >> > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                                      >> > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                                      >> > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a
                                                      >> Vorlage
                                                      >> > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                                      >> > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition,
                                                      >> also
                                                      >> > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                                      >> > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus
                                                      >> (S)
                                                      >> > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and
                                                      >> Vaticanus
                                                      >> > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                                      >> > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his
                                                      >> brilliance,
                                                      >> > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                                      >> > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                                      >> > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                                      >> > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                                      >> > Lucianic tradition).
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew
                                                      >> (and
                                                      >> > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                      >>
                                                      >> > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other
                                                      >> data
                                                      >> > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by
                                                      >> the
                                                      >> > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late
                                                      >> Hebrew
                                                      >> > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                                      >> > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Cheers,
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Dick
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Harvard University
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > ________________________________________
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                                      >> > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken
                                                      >> Penner
                                                      >> > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Thanks, Andy.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                                      >> > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                                      >>
                                                      >> > come from, if not from על?
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Ken
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                                      >> > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                                      >> > fincke
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Dear Ken,
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Here it is!
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                                      >>
                                                      >> > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the
                                                      >> falling
                                                      >> > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the
                                                      >> subsequent
                                                      >> > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with
                                                      >> 'e-class'
                                                      >> > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2
                                                      >> Samuel
                                                      >> > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading
                                                      >> is
                                                      >> > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                                      >> > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                                      >> > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula
                                                      >> for
                                                      >> > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                                      >>
                                                      >> > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם
                                                      >> ...
                                                      >> > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Andrew Fincke
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                      >> > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:
                                                      >> kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments.
                                                      >> If
                                                      >> > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Cheers,
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Ken
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > 902-867-2265
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                      >> > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                                      >> > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                                      >>
                                                      >> > Milton
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                      >> > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Hi Ken,
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > Thanks,
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > J
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                      >> > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                      >>
                                                      >> > wrote:
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > **
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > Dick wrote:
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading
                                                      >> of
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you
                                                      >> summarize
                                                      >> > the
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems
                                                      >> to
                                                      >> > me
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                                      >> > Hebrew
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is
                                                      >> the
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > typical translation of אל.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > Ken
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                                      >> > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                      >> > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                      >>
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> >
                                                      >> > >
                                                      >> >
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                                                      >> >
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                                                    • andrew fincke
                                                      Dear List! To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3 4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Nov 6, 2011
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Dear List!
                                                        To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3 4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s the relevant quote from DJD 17, 235:
                                                        “יעדתי V] חודעתי M; cf. S; העידתי G (διαμεμαρτυρημαι ). The reading of 4QSamb is original. Already Wellhausen, Bücher Samuelis, 121 had recognized that the original Hebrew text had some form of the root יעד. G reads διαμεμαρτυρημαι, the verb regularly used to render the Hip‘il of עוד in G. The reading of V, condixi, would appear to represent יעדתי, a putative Po‘el of ידע, which is clearly a corruption and may now be safely dropped.”
                                                        4QSamb certainly agrees with the Septuagint against the masoretic text. But what is “faith of God” in the Septuagint? Here are the two versions:
                                                        Masoretic text: “And the lads I made acquainted with the place of a certain unnamed individual.”
                                                        Septuagint: “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God.’”
                                                        Apart from the “certain unnamed individual” the problem of 1 Samuel 21:3 is the identity of the “lads,” who have no part in the story. David had just completed three days in hiding (1 Samuel 20:5, 11-12, 24, 35) with an emotional leave-taking of Jonathan (20:42), who advised him to run for his skin. The “companions” Ahimelek expected were remnants of a bygone era – the “men” who helped David win Mikal as bride by delivering a dowry of 100 Philistine foreskins to Saul (18:27). Once David achieved his marital object, he became companionless; and his flight from Mikal’s house (19:11 ff.) further isolated him from the outside world, contact with which only fleeting brushes with Jonathan (19:2) and Samuel (19:18) provided. In the eyes of the author of the Septuagint, David’s lads resembled the friends of the bridegroom who mourned the loss of their companion (Mark 2:19-20). The context of Mark 2 makes clear that these mourning friends of the groom represent the disciples, whose teacher they are destined to lose. The anonymous bridegroom-friends emerge in the following pericope as disciples plucking their way through a field ready to harvest (2:23), and the continuation at 2:25-28 identifies them with David's companions at Nov (“and he gave also to those with him” end of v. 26). “I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God’” refers the reader to the only other book of the Bible containing the phrase πίστις θεοῦ - i.e. Mark*, where the reader learns through a “testimony” (i.e. the parable of the mourning bridegroom-friends) the identity of the priest and the lads. Lacking the Mark gospel – which had not yet been published – the author of 4QSamb omitted the part about “faith of God,” which apparently entered the Gospel of Mark at an advanced stage of its development. “Certain unnamed individual” specifies in 4QSamb an amorphous body of unfixed testimonies to which אל vaguely refers. See J. Rendel Harris, Testimonies, Cambridge, 1916-1920.
                                                        Andrew Fincke
                                                        *Mark 11:22






                                                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                        From: finckea@...
                                                        Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:29 -0400
                                                        Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                                        Dear John:
                                                        1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only prefigured – “was like” - Him.
                                                        2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in 1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support this view.
                                                        3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some additions from 4QSam-b.
                                                        1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
                                                        1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place called ‘Faith of God.’
                                                        1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
                                                        1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
                                                        1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the was heavy on Saul.
                                                        2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the king lamented over Abner.
                                                        2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic: Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [ ] to Benjamin.
                                                        There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls. The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then “to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
                                                        Andrew Fincke





                                                        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                        From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                                        Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
                                                        Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





                                                        Hi Ken and Dick,

                                                        It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                                        sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                                        Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
                                                        the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                                        Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
                                                        a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                                        accent)?

                                                        Best,

                                                        John

                                                        On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

                                                        > **
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Hi Ken,
                                                        >
                                                        > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
                                                        > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
                                                        > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
                                                        > . .
                                                        >
                                                        > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                                        > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                                        > recension."
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers,
                                                        > Dick
                                                        > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                        > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                        > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                        > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                        > Harvard University
                                                        > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                        > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                        > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                        > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                        > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                        >
                                                        > ________________________________________
                                                        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
                                                        > kpenner@...]
                                                        > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                                        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                        >
                                                        > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
                                                        > επι?
                                                        >
                                                        > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                                        > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                                        > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Ken
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                        >
                                                        > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                                        >
                                                        > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                                        >
                                                        > kpenner@...
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
                                                        > Richard
                                                        >
                                                        > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                                        >
                                                        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                        >
                                                        > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                                        >
                                                        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Hi Ken,
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                                        > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
                                                        > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
                                                        > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
                                                        > Let me see if I can explain:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
                                                        > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
                                                        > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
                                                        > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
                                                        > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                                        > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                                        > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
                                                        > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                                        > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
                                                        > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                                        > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
                                                        > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
                                                        > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                                        > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
                                                        > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                                        > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                                        > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                                        > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                                        > Lucianic tradition).
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                        > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                        > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
                                                        > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
                                                        > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
                                                        > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                                        > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers,
                                                        >
                                                        > Dick
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                        >
                                                        > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                        >
                                                        > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                        >
                                                        > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                        >
                                                        > Harvard University
                                                        >
                                                        > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                        >
                                                        > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                        >
                                                        > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                        >
                                                        > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                        >
                                                        > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > ________________________________________
                                                        >
                                                        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                                        > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                                        > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                                        >
                                                        > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                                        >
                                                        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >
                                                        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Thanks, Andy.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                                        > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                                        > come from, if not from על?
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Ken
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                                        > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                                        > fincke
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Dear Ken,
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Here it is!
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                                        > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
                                                        > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
                                                        > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
                                                        > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
                                                        > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
                                                        > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                                        > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                                        > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
                                                        > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                                        > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
                                                        > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Andrew Fincke
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                        > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
                                                        > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers,
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Ken
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > 902-867-2265
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                        > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                                        > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                                        > Milton
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                        > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Hi Ken,
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Thanks,
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > J
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                        > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                        > wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > **
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > Dick wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
                                                        > the
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
                                                        > me
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                                        > Hebrew
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > typical translation of אל.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > >
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                                                        >
                                                        > > Ken
                                                        >
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                                                        >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                                        > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                        > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
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                                                      • andrew fincke
                                                        List! Sorry about the mistranslation of the Septuagint at 1 Sam. 21:3, which says, “And to the lads I testified in the place (where) it is said, ‘Faith of
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Nov 8, 2011
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          List!
                                                          Sorry about the mistranslation of the Septuagint at 1 Sam. 21:3, which says, “And to the lads I testified in the place (where) it is said, ‘Faith of God’” not “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God.’” The Greek is καὶ τοῖς παιδαρίοις διαμεμαρτύρημαι ἐν τῷ τόπῳ τῷ λεγομένῳ θεοῦ πίστις φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί. In any case, it’s not “in a place called “Faith of God,’” since the verb in the participle is λέγω not καλέω. That means the continuation in Vaticanus: φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί is a corruption of Jer. 32(39):27: הִנֵּה אֲנִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי כָּל בָּשָׂר הֲמִמֶּנִּי יִפָּלֵא כָּל דָּבָר “Look! I’m the Lord God of all flesh! Is anything too awesome for me?” to הִנֵּה אֲנִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי כָּל בְּשׂרָה מִמֶּנִּי יִפָּלֵא כָּל דָּבָר “Look! I’m the Lord God of all gospel! Every word (going forth) from me is wonderful!” The key is μαεμωνεί, which turns הֲמִמֶּנִּי “Is from me?” at Jeremiah into מִמֶּנִּי “from me” and בָּשָׂר “flesh” into בְּשׂרָה “gospel” (εὐαγγέλιον). That turns θεὸς πάσης σαρκός at Jeremiah into θεοῦ πίστις εὐαγγελίῳ and 1 Sam. 21:3 into “And I testified to the lads (disciples) in the place in the gospel (of Mark) where (it) is said, ‘Faith of God.’” Recorded at Mark 2:25-27 is the good news to the disciples about the temple-bread that was about to replace the raw kernels they were rubbing. It was a “testimony” by virtue of its being drawn from Scripture – 1 Sam. 21:3-7.
                                                          Andrew Fincke








                                                          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                          From: finckea@...
                                                          Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:24:02 -0500
                                                          Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                                          Dear List!
                                                          To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3 4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s the relevant quote from DJD 17, 235:
                                                          “יעדתי V] חודעתי M; cf. S; העידתי G (διαμεμαρτυρημαι ). The reading of 4QSamb is original. Already Wellhausen, Bücher Samuelis, 121 had recognized that the original Hebrew text had some form of the root יעד. G reads διαμεμαρτυρημαι, the verb regularly used to render the Hip‘il of עוד in G. The reading of V, condixi, would appear to represent יעדתי, a putative Po‘el of ידע, which is clearly a corruption and may now be safely dropped.”
                                                          4QSamb certainly agrees with the Septuagint against the masoretic text. But what is “faith of God” in the Septuagint? Here are the two versions:
                                                          Masoretic text: “And the lads I made acquainted with the place of a certain unnamed individual.”
                                                          Septuagint: “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God.’”
                                                          Apart from the “certain unnamed individual” the problem of 1 Samuel 21:3 is the identity of the “lads,” who have no part in the story. David had just completed three days in hiding (1 Samuel 20:5, 11-12, 24, 35) with an emotional leave-taking of Jonathan (20:42), who advised him to run for his skin. The “companions” Ahimelek expected were remnants of a bygone era – the “men” who helped David win Mikal as bride by delivering a dowry of 100 Philistine foreskins to Saul (18:27). Once David achieved his marital object, he became companionless; and his flight from Mikal’s house (19:11 ff.) further isolated him from the outside world, contact with which only fleeting brushes with Jonathan (19:2) and Samuel (19:18) provided. In the eyes of the author of the Septuagint, David’s lads resembled the friends of the bridegroom who mourned the loss of their companion (Mark 2:19-20). The context of Mark 2 makes clear that these mourning friends of the groom represent the disciples, whose teacher they are destined to lose. The anonymous bridegroom-friends emerge in the following pericope as disciples plucking their way through a field ready to harvest (2:23), and the continuation at 2:25-28 identifies them with David's companions at Nov (“and he gave also to those with him” end of v. 26). “I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God’” refers the reader to the only other book of the Bible containing the phrase πίστις θεοῦ - i.e. Mark*, where the reader learns through a “testimony” (i.e. the parable of the mourning bridegroom-friends) the identity of the priest and the lads. Lacking the Mark gospel – which had not yet been published – the author of 4QSamb omitted the part about “faith of God,” which apparently entered the Gospel of Mark at an advanced stage of its development. “Certain unnamed individual” specifies in 4QSamb an amorphous body of unfixed testimonies to which אל vaguely refers. See J. Rendel Harris, Testimonies, Cambridge, 1916-1920.
                                                          Andrew Fincke
                                                          *Mark 11:22






                                                          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                          From: finckea@...
                                                          Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:29 -0400
                                                          Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                                          Dear John:
                                                          1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only prefigured – “was like” - Him.
                                                          2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in 1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support this view.
                                                          3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some additions from 4QSam-b.
                                                          1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
                                                          1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place called ‘Faith of God.’
                                                          1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
                                                          1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
                                                          1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the was heavy on Saul.
                                                          2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the king lamented over Abner.
                                                          2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic: Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [ ] to Benjamin.
                                                          There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls. The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then “to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
                                                          Andrew Fincke





                                                          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                          From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                                          Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
                                                          Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





                                                          Hi Ken and Dick,

                                                          It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                                          sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                                          Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
                                                          the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                                          Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
                                                          a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                                          accent)?

                                                          Best,

                                                          John

                                                          On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

                                                          > **
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Hi Ken,
                                                          >
                                                          > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
                                                          > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
                                                          > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
                                                          > . .
                                                          >
                                                          > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                                          > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                                          > recension."
                                                          >
                                                          > Cheers,
                                                          > Dick
                                                          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                          > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                          > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                          > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                          > Harvard University
                                                          > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                          > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                          > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                          > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                          >
                                                          > ________________________________________
                                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
                                                          > kpenner@...]
                                                          > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                          >
                                                          > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
                                                          > επι?
                                                          >
                                                          > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                                          > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                                          > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Ken
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                          >
                                                          > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                                          >
                                                          > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                                          >
                                                          > kpenner@...
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
                                                          > Richard
                                                          >
                                                          > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                                          >
                                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >
                                                          > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                                          >
                                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Hi Ken,
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                                          > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
                                                          > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
                                                          > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
                                                          > Let me see if I can explain:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
                                                          > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
                                                          > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
                                                          > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
                                                          > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                                          > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                                          > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
                                                          > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                                          > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
                                                          > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                                          > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
                                                          > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
                                                          > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                                          > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
                                                          > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                                          > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                                          > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                                          > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                                          > Lucianic tradition).
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                          > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                          > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
                                                          > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
                                                          > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
                                                          > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                                          > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Cheers,
                                                          >
                                                          > Dick
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                          >
                                                          > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                          >
                                                          > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                          >
                                                          > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                          >
                                                          > Harvard University
                                                          >
                                                          > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                          >
                                                          > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                          >
                                                          > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                          >
                                                          > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                          >
                                                          > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > ________________________________________
                                                          >
                                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                                          > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                                          > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                                          >
                                                          > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                                          >
                                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >
                                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Thanks, Andy.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                                          > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                                          > come from, if not from על?
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Ken
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                                          > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                                          > fincke
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Dear Ken,
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Here it is!
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                                          > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
                                                          > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
                                                          > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
                                                          > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
                                                          > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
                                                          > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                                          > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                                          > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
                                                          > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                                          > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
                                                          > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Andrew Fincke
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
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                                                          > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
                                                          > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                                          >
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                                                          >
                                                          > Cheers,
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Ken
                                                          >
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                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > 902-867-2265
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
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                                                          > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                                          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                                          > Milton
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                          > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >
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                                                          > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
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                                                          > Hi Ken,
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                                                          > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
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                                                          > Thanks,
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                                                          > J
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                                                          > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                          > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                          > wrote:
                                                          >
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                                                          > > **
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                                                          > > Dick wrote:
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                                                          > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                                                          >
                                                          >
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                                                          > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
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                                                          >
                                                          > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
                                                          > the
                                                          >
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                                                          >
                                                          > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
                                                          > me
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                                          > Hebrew
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > > typical translation of אל.
                                                          >
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                                                          > >
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                                                          > > Ken
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                                                          > >
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                                                          > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                                          > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                          > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
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                                                        • andrew fincke
                                                          Dear List, It doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to see that φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί ending 1 Sam. 21:3 in Vaticanus is the transcription
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Nov 10, 2011
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Dear List,
                                                            It doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to see that φελλανεὶ μαεμωνεί ending 1 Sam. 21:3 in Vaticanus is the transcription or partial transcription of something in Hebrew. But if not the פְּלֹנִי אַלְמוֹנִי of M and the פלני אלמני of 4QSamb, then what? How did the Hebrew phrase, which means “some anonymous individual,” get so corrupted in the Greek? And what bearing does this corrupt Greek have on the preceding “I testified to the lads in a place said ‘Faith of God’”? The first word isn’t so bad - φελλανεὶ fairly well represents פלני. The difference is in the punctuation – the masoretes have peloni (פְּלֹנִי), Vaticanus fellani, which transcribes not פלני but rather פֶלֶא אֲנִי “I am wonderful” or, rather, “I am Wonderful,” since Isaiah 9:6 says, “His name shall be called ‘Wonderful’ (פֶּלֶא).” The identity of the “I” of 1 Sam. 21:3: “I testified to the lads” is revealed – the man called “Wonderful,” whose testimony to the lads is recorded in the Gospel of Mark, where “Faith of God” appears. Now μαεμωνεί is a different case. The Septuagint knew how to transcribe אַלְמוֹנִי – see ελμωνι at 2 Kings 6:8. Here the author had something else in mind - אֵמוּנִי “my faithfulness.” For אֵמוּן “faithfulness” see Deut. 32:20. His idea was “I am Wonderful due to My faithfulness (מֵאֵמוּנִי = μαεμωνεί),” which explains “faith of God!” at Mark 11:22. The “anonymous person” turns out to be the priest that met David – Ahimelek according to 1 Samuel, Abiathar, son of Ahimelek, according to Mark 2:26. Turns out Mark is right, since Isaiah 9:6 ends the list of divine names with אֲבִיעַד שַׂר שׁלוֺם “The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.” With all due respect to Lancelot Andrewes and the King James translators, אֲבִיעַד שַׂר is best understood אֶבְיָתָר “Abiathar,” and שׁלוֺם “Completion!” is the “Amen” of the litany.
                                                            Andrew Fincke





                                                            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                            From: finckea@...
                                                            Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:24:02 -0500
                                                            Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                                            Dear List!
                                                            To quell Dick’s anger and correct the impression I left that at 1 Sam 21:3 4QSamb agrees with the masoretic text against the Septuagint, here’s the relevant quote from DJD 17, 235:
                                                            “יעדתי V] חודעתי M; cf. S; העידתי G (διαμεμαρτυρημαι ). The reading of 4QSamb is original. Already Wellhausen, Bücher Samuelis, 121 had recognized that the original Hebrew text had some form of the root יעד. G reads διαμεμαρτυρημαι, the verb regularly used to render the Hip‘il of עוד in G. The reading of V, condixi, would appear to represent יעדתי, a putative Po‘el of ידע, which is clearly a corruption and may now be safely dropped.”
                                                            4QSamb certainly agrees with the Septuagint against the masoretic text. But what is “faith of God” in the Septuagint? Here are the two versions:
                                                            Masoretic text: “And the lads I made acquainted with the place of a certain unnamed individual.”
                                                            Septuagint: “And the lads I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God.’”
                                                            Apart from the “certain unnamed individual” the problem of 1 Samuel 21:3 is the identity of the “lads,” who have no part in the story. David had just completed three days in hiding (1 Samuel 20:5, 11-12, 24, 35) with an emotional leave-taking of Jonathan (20:42), who advised him to run for his skin. The “companions” Ahimelek expected were remnants of a bygone era – the “men” who helped David win Mikal as bride by delivering a dowry of 100 Philistine foreskins to Saul (18:27). Once David achieved his marital object, he became companionless; and his flight from Mikal’s house (19:11 ff.) further isolated him from the outside world, contact with which only fleeting brushes with Jonathan (19:2) and Samuel (19:18) provided. In the eyes of the author of the Septuagint, David’s lads resembled the friends of the bridegroom who mourned the loss of their companion (Mark 2:19-20). The context of Mark 2 makes clear that these mourning friends of the groom represent the disciples, whose teacher they are destined to lose. The anonymous bridegroom-friends emerge in the following pericope as disciples plucking their way through a field ready to harvest (2:23), and the continuation at 2:25-28 identifies them with David's companions at Nov (“and he gave also to those with him” end of v. 26). “I testified in a place (where it is said) ‘Faith of God’” refers the reader to the only other book of the Bible containing the phrase πίστις θεοῦ - i.e. Mark*, where the reader learns through a “testimony” (i.e. the parable of the mourning bridegroom-friends) the identity of the priest and the lads. Lacking the Mark gospel – which had not yet been published – the author of 4QSamb omitted the part about “faith of God,” which apparently entered the Gospel of Mark at an advanced stage of its development. “Certain unnamed individual” specifies in 4QSamb an amorphous body of unfixed testimonies to which אל vaguely refers. See J. Rendel Harris, Testimonies, Cambridge, 1916-1920.
                                                            Andrew Fincke
                                                            *Mark 11:22






                                                            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                            From: finckea@...
                                                            Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:29 -0400
                                                            Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







                                                            Dear John:
                                                            1) Here’s the best I can do. The masoretic text at 2 Sam 23:1 has הַגֶּבֶר הֻקַם עָל מְשִׁיחַ אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב “the man who was stood on the anointed God of Jacob.” That doesn’t makes sense, but the first two words – hagever hukam “the man who was stood” – sounds like hagever hu kemo (הַגֶּבֶר הוּא כְּמוֺ) “the man who (was) like.” As anyone familiar with the New Testament knows, David wasn’t himself the anointed God of Jacob but only prefigured – “was like” - Him.
                                                            2) The citation of DJD 17, 186 was correct, but the explanation not so. The Gothic Old Latin symbol was expanded to “Old Latin” not to “Lucianic manuscripts.” The connection between “Old Latin” and “Lucianic manuscripts” is this: “Old Latin” designates marginal readings in old Vulgate Bibles, which were collected by Sabatier and Vercellone and published in 1741 and 1864 respectively. The Septuagint marginal readings - given by Brooke/McLean at the bottoms of the pages - are hardly “Old Greek,” since their authors, Aquila and Symmachus, worked long after the fixation of the Greek text. What then is “Old Greek?” It is what came long after the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts and yet carries a text predating them. Just as the Jews claim for their relatively young manuscript – Codex Leningrad dates from the tenth century A.D. – originality, so the Lucianic text – whose vehicle is five manuscripts from the tenth century A.D. – contains a tradition which appears “old”er than that of the fourth century Codex Vaticanus. The many agreements between the Lucianic text and the Samuel scrolls from Qumran support this view.
                                                            3) The list of אל/על confusions was done as a Word document, which was then pasted into an email due to the tendency of hotmail to crash under the burden of frequent keyboard changes from English to Greek to Hebrew with Tavultesoft for the Greek. The table format in the Word document became in the email a list, and the underlining indicating the scroll evidence was lost. Here it is with some additions from 4QSam-b.
                                                            1 Sam 20:40: MT: And Jonathan gave his equipment to the lad, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: And Jonathan gave his equipment on the lad.
                                                            1 Sam 21:3: MT/4QSam-b: And the lads I made familiar with the place of some anonymous fellow, Vaticanus/Lucianic: And to the lads I witnessed in the place called ‘Faith of God.’
                                                            1 Sam 21:5: MT: There is not profane bread to under my hand, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-b: There is not profane bread under my hand.
                                                            1 Sam 27:10: MT: On the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmali and to the south of the Keni, Vaticanus/Lucianic: On the south of Judaea and on the south of Yesmaga and on the south of the Kenezi, 4QSam-a: [ ] and to the south of Y[ ] and on the sou[th of.
                                                            1 Sam 31:3: MT: And the war was heavy to Saul, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the was heavy on Saul.
                                                            2 Sam 3:37: MT: And the king lamented to Abner, Vaticanus/Lucianic/4QSam-a: And the king lamented over Abner.
                                                            2 Sam 4:2: Because also Beirut was counted upon Benjamin, Vaticanus/Lucianic: Because (Lucianic + also) Beirut was counted to the sons of Benjamin, 4QSam-a: [ ] to Benjamin.
                                                            There’s a noticeable tendency to agreement between the Greek and the scrolls. The commonality at 1 Sam 27:10 is that the Greek and the scroll tend toward a triplet – the Greeks through uniformity of the preposition, the scroll through triple divergence. A careful reconstruction of the fragment shows that the first preposition lacked and that the scroll read “south of Judah and to the south of the Yarchmali and on the south of the Kenezei” with no preposition then “to” then “on.” At 2 Sam 14:30: אל ידי “to my hand” 4QSam-c has על ידי “on my hand,” which may be closer to Vaticanus/Lucianic: “next to,” for which “on hand” is the normal equivalent.
                                                            Andrew Fincke





                                                            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                            From: johnisaacmilton@...
                                                            Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:50:06 -0400
                                                            Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





                                                            Hi Ken and Dick,

                                                            It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
                                                            sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
                                                            Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
                                                            the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
                                                            Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
                                                            a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
                                                            accent)?

                                                            Best,

                                                            John

                                                            On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

                                                            > **
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Hi Ken,
                                                            >
                                                            > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
                                                            > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
                                                            > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
                                                            > . .
                                                            >
                                                            > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
                                                            > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
                                                            > recension."
                                                            >
                                                            > Cheers,
                                                            > Dick
                                                            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                            > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                            > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                            > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                            > Harvard University
                                                            > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                            > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                            > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                            > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                            >
                                                            > ________________________________________
                                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
                                                            > kpenner@...]
                                                            > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
                                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                            >
                                                            > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
                                                            > επι?
                                                            >
                                                            > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
                                                            > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
                                                            > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Ken
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                            >
                                                            > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
                                                            >
                                                            > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
                                                            >
                                                            > kpenner@...
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
                                                            > Richard
                                                            >
                                                            > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
                                                            >
                                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                            >
                                                            > Cc: Saley, Richard
                                                            >
                                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Hi Ken,
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
                                                            > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
                                                            > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
                                                            > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
                                                            > Let me see if I can explain:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
                                                            > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
                                                            > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
                                                            > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
                                                            > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
                                                            > Hebrew על as you have noted.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
                                                            > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
                                                            > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
                                                            > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
                                                            > reflects Hebrew אל.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
                                                            > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
                                                            > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
                                                            > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
                                                            > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
                                                            > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
                                                            > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
                                                            > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
                                                            > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
                                                            > Lucianic tradition).
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                            > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
                                                            > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
                                                            > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
                                                            > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
                                                            > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
                                                            > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Cheers,
                                                            >
                                                            > Dick
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                            >
                                                            > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
                                                            >
                                                            > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
                                                            >
                                                            > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
                                                            >
                                                            > Harvard University
                                                            >
                                                            > Six Divinity Avenue
                                                            >
                                                            > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
                                                            >
                                                            > Tel: 617-495-4239
                                                            >
                                                            > Fax: 617-496-8904
                                                            >
                                                            > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > ________________________________________
                                                            >
                                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
                                                            > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
                                                            > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
                                                            >
                                                            > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
                                                            >
                                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                            >
                                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Thanks, Andy.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
                                                            > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
                                                            > come from, if not from על?
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Ken
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
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                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                                                            > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
                                                            > fincke
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
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                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Dear Ken,
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Here it is!
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
                                                            > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
                                                            > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
                                                            > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
                                                            > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
                                                            > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
                                                            > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
                                                            > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
                                                            > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
                                                            > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
                                                            > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
                                                            > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Andrew Fincke
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
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                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
                                                            > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Cheers,
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Ken
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > 902-867-2265
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
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                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                                            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
                                                            > Milton
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                                            > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
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                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Hi Ken,
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Thanks,
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > J
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                            > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                            > wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > **
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > Dick wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
                                                            > the
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
                                                            > me
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
                                                            > Hebrew
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > typical translation of אל.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > Ken
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > St. Francis Xavier University
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
                                                            > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
                                                            > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > >
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                                                            > ------------------------------------
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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