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Re: [lxx] Re: The name of god

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  • St. Tikhon's Sem Libr
    ... Isn t Kurie (the vocative case of Kurios ) used by St. Mary Magdalene to address Jesus when she thinks he is the gardener (hence meaning sir or
    Message 1 of 10 , May 29, 2002
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      On Wed, 29 May 2002 17:32:28 -0000, jultm777 wrote:

      >Concerning kurios you are absolutely wrong. It is absurdity to claim,
      >that kurios has different meaning in Greek when it is used for human
      >or god. It is clear that in LXX, NT and the Old Greek writings the
      >word kurios has the same meaning without difference concerning men,
      >women or god and has the same meaning - master, lord.

      Isn't "Kurie" (the vocative case of "Kurios") used by St. Mary
      Magdalene to address Jesus when she thinks he is the gardener (hence
      meaning "sir" or "Mr.")?


      Juvenaly, Asst. Librarian
      St. Patriarch Tikhon Library
      St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary
      Box 130 / St Tikhon's Road / So Canaan PA 18459-0130 USA
      570-937-3209, "-3103, or "-4411 ext 21
      fax 570-937-3209; if no answer 570-937-3100
      http://www.stots.edu/library.html
      library@...
    • jultm777
      No, it is not. Sir is not a good translation. If you understand the usage of Sir only as an word to address with or as a title, you are wrong to translate
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 9, 2002
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        No, it is not. "Sir" is not a good translation. If you understand the
        usage of "Sir" only as an word to address with or as a title, you
        are wrong to translate kurios with sir. In the Bible's
        context "kurios" does not have such an usage. The times of the Bible,
        as you know, have been different than ours. In the modern world the
        meaning of "master", is not so actual like in the Bible times.

        In this particular case with Mary Magdalene, she is asking
        the "master of the situation" in her own view; the one who, she
        things moved the body of the lord Jesus. She does not just addresses
        herself to any gardener, but have and shows respect as to the ruler
        of the situation. So "Sir" is a poor choice to translate with in this
        passage. In the ancient times "kurios" is having stronger meaning
        than merely "Sir".

        If we look for the usage of the word in the life of the lord Jesus,
        he never uses it to address politely someone, for example: kurios
        Petros, but calls him directly Simon the Rock. This word "kurios"
        with no difference for god or men bears the meaning of lord and
        master.

        If you claim that the usage of "kurios" is different when used for
        god or man, could you please explain why this word is never used from
        god or from the lord Jesus towards men only as to address with,
        explain also such an expressions as "king of kings and lord of lords
        (kurios kurown) where the meaning must be exactly the same.

        With respect,
        Julian


        --- In lxx@y..., "St. Tikhon's Sem Libr" <library@s...> wrote:
        > On Wed, 29 May 2002 17:32:28 -0000, jultm777 wrote:
        >
        > >Concerning kurios you are absolutely wrong. It is absurdity to
        claim,
        > >that kurios has different meaning in Greek when it is used for
        human
        > >or god. It is clear that in LXX, NT and the Old Greek writings the
        > >word kurios has the same meaning without difference concerning
        men,
        > >women or god and has the same meaning - master, lord.
        >
        > Isn't "Kurie" (the vocative case of "Kurios") used by St. Mary
        > Magdalene to address Jesus when she thinks he is the gardener (hence
        > meaning "sir" or "Mr.")?
        >
        >
        > Juvenaly, Asst. Librarian
        > St. Patriarch Tikhon Library
        > St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary
        > Box 130 / St Tikhon's Road / So Canaan PA 18459-0130 USA
        > 570-937-3209, "-3103, or "-4411 ext 21
        > fax 570-937-3209; if no answer 570-937-3100
        > http://www.stots.edu/library.html
        > library@s...
      • St. Tikhon's Sem Libr
        ... Dear Julian, Like many if not most words, this word has different meaning depending on the context. Many times it means Lord. Other times, it means owner.
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 11, 2002
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          On Sun, 09 Jun 2002 21:40:23 -0000, jultm777 wrote:

          >No, it is not. "Sir" is not a good translation. If you understand the
          >usage of "Sir" only as an word to address with or as a title, you
          >are wrong to translate kurios with sir. In the Bible's
          >context "kurios" does not have such an usage. The times of the Bible,
          >as you know, have been different than ours. In the modern world the
          >meaning of "master", is not so actual like in the Bible times.

          >In this particular case with Mary Magdalene, she is asking
          >the "master of the situation" in her own view; the one who, she
          >things moved the body of the lord Jesus. She does not just addresses
          >herself to any gardener, but have and shows respect as to the ruler
          >of the situation. So "Sir" is a poor choice to translate with in this
          >passage. In the ancient times "kurios" is having stronger meaning
          >than merely "Sir".

          > If we look for the usage of the word in the life of the lord Jesus,
          >he never uses it to address politely someone, for example: kurios
          >Petros, but calls him directly Simon the Rock. This word "kurios"
          >with no difference for god or men bears the meaning of lord and
          >master.

          >If you claim that the usage of "kurios" is different when used for
          >god or man, could you please explain why this word is never used from
          >god or from the lord Jesus towards men only as to address with,
          >explain also such an expressions as "king of kings and lord of lords
          >(kurios kurown) where the meaning must be exactly the same.
          >
          >With respect,
          >Julian

          Dear Julian,
          Like many if not most words, this word has different meaning depending
          on the context. Many times it means Lord. Other times, it means owner.
          (For example Luke 19.33.) Other times, it is a title of respect (For
          example, Matt. 13:27, where it is translated "sir.") I also believe
          that is the meaning in the passage where St. Mary Magdalene meets the
          Lord and supposes him to be the gardener.
          Sincerely
          Hieromonk Juvenaly
          Senior lecturer in Greek
          St Tikhon's Seminary
        • St. Tikhon's Sem Libr
          ... It s very often true that a word in one language does not have a precise equivalent in another language; and, furthermore, I m willing to allow that
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 11, 2002
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            To what I wrote a few minutes ago, I want to add this the following:

            >. . . .The times of the Bible,
            >as you know, have been different than ours. In the modern world the
            >meaning of "master", is not so actual like in the Bible times.

            >. . . . . So "Sir" is a poor choice to translate with in this
            >passage. In the ancient times "kurios" is having stronger meaning
            >than merely "Sir".

            It's very often true that a word in one language does not have a
            precise equivalent in another language; and, furthermore, I'm willing
            to allow that "kurios" in the NT is, or may be, slightly stronger than
            "sir" in modern English. It often has overtones of high status and
            respect. And therefore "sir" is not a perfect translation in the
            context under discussion (namely, when St. Mary Magdalene addresses
            Jesus while supposing him to be the gardener). OTOH, the meaning of
            "kurios" here (and often in other places) is not as strong as when it
            is used to address God. Therefore, I think that in this context "Lord"
            would be an inappropriate translation, and "sir" is the better one, or
            at any rate the least bad one.

            >If you claim that the usage of "kurios" is different when used for
            >god or man, could you please explain why this word is never used from
            >god or from the lord Jesus towards men only as to address with,

            For the same reason that a parent does not address his or her own child
            as "sir."

            >explain also such an expressions as "king of kings and lord of lords
            >(kurios kurown) where the meaning must be exactly the same.

            Here the word "kurios" has a stronger meaning than when used to address
            human beings.
            Juvenaly
          • andrew_lxx
            ... the ... willing ... than ... it ... context Lord ... or ... from ... child ... lords ... address ... Dear Juvenaly, As I can understand, you hold that
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 18, 2002
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              --- In lxx@y..., "St. Tikhon's Sem Libr" <library@s...> wrote:
              > To what I wrote a few minutes ago, I want to add this the following:
              >
              > >. . . .The times of the Bible,
              > >as you know, have been different than ours. In the modern world
              the
              > >meaning of "master", is not so actual like in the Bible times.
              >
              > >. . . . . So "Sir" is a poor choice to translate with in this
              > >passage. In the ancient times "kurios" is having stronger meaning
              > >than merely "Sir".
              >
              > It's very often true that a word in one language does not have a
              > precise equivalent in another language; and, furthermore, I'm
              willing
              > to allow that "kurios" in the NT is, or may be, slightly stronger
              than
              > "sir" in modern English. It often has overtones of high status and
              > respect. And therefore "sir" is not a perfect translation in the
              > context under discussion (namely, when St. Mary Magdalene addresses
              > Jesus while supposing him to be the gardener). OTOH, the meaning of
              > "kurios" here (and often in other places) is not as strong as when
              it
              > is used to address God. Therefore, I think that in this
              context "Lord"
              > would be an inappropriate translation, and "sir" is the better one,
              or
              > at any rate the least bad one.
              >
              > >If you claim that the usage of "kurios" is different when used for
              > >god or man, could you please explain why this word is never used
              from
              > >god or from the lord Jesus towards men only as to address with,
              >
              > For the same reason that a parent does not address his or her own
              child
              > as "sir."
              >
              > >explain also such an expressions as "king of kings and lord of
              lords
              > >(kurios kurown) where the meaning must be exactly the same.
              >
              > Here the word "kurios" has a stronger meaning than when used to
              address
              > human beings.
              > Juvenaly

              Dear Juvenaly,
              As I can understand, you hold that kurios have variations in its
              meaning when used in Old Greek language in Bible's contexts, and thus
              the tetragrammaton YHWH cannot be considered to have its meaning
              master. And you support your view with some examples which you
              believe are exceptional and have a slightly different nuance.

              If someone disregards thousands of places with contexts where god is
              named with the word which means master, and such word is translated
              from other language in Greek as master and is used thousands of times
              in such reach language totally predominantly, also not understanding
              that such word is not considered as the name of god by he who is the
              word of god; Then for such man the name of god always will be mystery
              and he will absurdly call the name of his god tetragrammaton, and it
              will be very difficult for him to fulfill the scripture where it is
              written: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
              saved."

              p.s.
              Your interpretation of the passage with "kurios kuriwn" is very
              wrong, because "kuriwn" refers human beings and kurios in such
              expression means that Jesus is the most great kurios between others
              of the same kind.
            • andrew_lxx
              ... the ... willing ... than ... it ... context Lord ... or ... from ... child ... lords ... address
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 18, 2002
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                --- In lxx@y..., "St. Tikhon's Sem Libr" <library@s...> wrote:
                > To what I wrote a few minutes ago, I want to add this the following:
                >
                > >. . . .The times of the Bible,
                > >as you know, have been different than ours. In the modern world
                the
                > >meaning of "master", is not so actual like in the Bible times.
                >
                > >. . . . . So "Sir" is a poor choice to translate with in this
                > >passage. In the ancient times "kurios" is having stronger meaning
                > >than merely "Sir".
                >
                > It's very often true that a word in one language does not have a
                > precise equivalent in another language; and, furthermore, I'm
                willing
                > to allow that "kurios" in the NT is, or may be, slightly stronger
                than
                > "sir" in modern English. It often has overtones of high status and
                > respect. And therefore "sir" is not a perfect translation in the
                > context under discussion (namely, when St. Mary Magdalene addresses
                > Jesus while supposing him to be the gardener). OTOH, the meaning of
                > "kurios" here (and often in other places) is not as strong as when
                it
                > is used to address God. Therefore, I think that in this
                context "Lord"
                > would be an inappropriate translation, and "sir" is the better one,
                or
                > at any rate the least bad one.
                >
                > >If you claim that the usage of "kurios" is different when used for
                > >god or man, could you please explain why this word is never used
                from
                > >god or from the lord Jesus towards men only as to address with,
                >
                > For the same reason that a parent does not address his or her own
                child
                > as "sir."
                >
                > >explain also such an expressions as "king of kings and lord of
                lords
                > >(kurios kurown) where the meaning must be exactly the same.
                >
                > Here the word "kurios" has a stronger meaning than when used to
                address
                > human beings.
                > Juvenaly
              • canicus
                ... thus ... is ... times ... understanding ... the ... mystery ... it ... be ... Perhaps it would be better to look at degrees of ownership or being master.
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 19, 2002
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                  > Dear Juvenaly,
                  > As I can understand, you hold that kurios have variations in its
                  > meaning when used in Old Greek language in Bible's contexts, and
                  thus
                  > the tetragrammaton YHWH cannot be considered to have its meaning
                  > master. And you support your view with some examples which you
                  > believe are exceptional and have a slightly different nuance.
                  >
                  > If someone disregards thousands of places with contexts where god
                  is
                  > named with the word which means master, and such word is translated
                  > from other language in Greek as master and is used thousands of
                  times
                  > in such reach language totally predominantly, also not
                  understanding
                  > that such word is not considered as the name of god by he who is
                  the
                  > word of god; Then for such man the name of god always will be
                  mystery
                  > and he will absurdly call the name of his god tetragrammaton, and
                  it
                  > will be very difficult for him to fulfill the scripture where it is
                  > written: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall
                  be
                  > saved."
                  >
                  > p.s.
                  > Your interpretation of the passage with "kurios kuriwn" is very
                  > wrong, because "kuriwn" refers human beings and kurios in such
                  > expression means that Jesus is the most great kurios between others
                  > of the same kind.

                  Perhaps it would be better to look at degrees of ownership or
                  being "master." Calling God "King of kings and Lord of lords" isn't
                  an argument against it, but for it. In the ancient near-east, kings
                  were considered divine. Kurios can be used with divine
                  implications. It is, therefore, reasonable to think that it can be
                  used in a way that exclussively connotes God and not men.

                  Secondly, whether you think that kurios is appropriate for the
                  tetragrammaton or not is irrelevant. The translators of the LXX,
                  which took place at a wide variety of times, seemed to think that
                  kurios was. Perhaps we should be discussing why they thought that.
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