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Translation Shift in Greek Zechariah 8?

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  • C L
    Greetings, Colleagues! Currently, I am considering writing my Th.M. thesis on textual issues in Greek Zechariah.  (For the sake of convenience, I will simply
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 3, 2011
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      Greetings, Colleagues!



      Currently, I am considering writing my Th.M. thesis on textual issues in Greek Zechariah. 
      (For the sake of convenience, I will simply refer to Greek Zech, and base my
      observations from Rahlfs. The textual tradition is more complicated than that,
      of course, as I'm sure we all know [from Nahal Hever, the Gottingen LXX, etc.]. So,
      "Greek Zechariah" is just a label for convenience here.)



      (PLEASE NOTE: Since I'm not sure who reads this forum, I've tried to be
      respectful in the way I represent the Divine Name, and so on.  I've also
      attempted to transliterate, since I'm not sure what fonts everybody can
      read.  Please let me know if I need to alter this style.  Also, I've posted this to a the Tanak discussion group, but received no feedback yet.)



      Here is my question:



      Is there a translation shift between chapter 8 of Greek Zechariah and the Masoretic
      Text?



      If I am reading the Qal perfects correctly, then Hebrew Zechariah seems to
      clearly view these events as having already transpired. Consider:

      Zechariah, Chapter 8 (Modified
      from NASB)

      8:1 Then was (WYHY) the word of ADONAI
      of hosts saying,


      8:2 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts,

      'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion,

      with great wrath I am jealous for her.'


      8:3 "Thus says ADONAI,

      'I HAVE RETURNED (SHAVTI: Qal perfect, no waw)
      to Zion

      and I HAVE COME TO DWELL (waw sheva + Qal
      Perfect.  This is not without problems.  If “come to dwell” were
      intended here, wouldn’t Piel express that better?) in the midst of Jerusalem.


      Then Jerusalem WAS CALLED (waw sheva + Niphal
      Perfect) the City of Truth,

      and the mountain
      of ADONAI of hosts [was called] the
      Holy Mountain.'

      (This is
      mainly where my questions lie: Greek Zech [and NASB] reports these actions with future tense, but for
      that to be the case in the Hebrew, the first verb should be imperfect
      ASHAV.  So, ADONAI has ALREADY come to dwell in Zion, according to Zech 8:3, but is still EXPECTED
      to dwell in Zion according to Greek Zech. This is made even
      more poignant by the use of IMPERFECT)


      8:4 "Thus says ADONAI of
      hosts,

      'Old men and old women will again sit (QAL
      Imperfect, no waw) in the streets of Jerusalem,


      each man with his staff in his hand because of
      age.


      8:5 'And the streets of the city will be
      filled (Niphal Impf, no waw) with boys and girls playing in its streets.'


      8:6 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts, 'If
      it WILL BE TOO DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal
      impf) in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days,

      WILL IT [ALSO] BE TOO
      DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal impf) in My sight?'

      declares ADONAI of hosts.

      [Petuhah]

       

      So, there clearly seems to be a distinction in
      the Masoretic Text between past and future events: ADONAI is CURRENTLY in Zion,
      having just returned as the Exiles are restored to the Land.  As a result,
      old people and children will one day have no fear to amuse themselves out in
      the open, as the Divine Government is established (in the future).

      However, Greek Zechariah seems to see all these
      events as future.


      If we continue through the chapter, Hebrew Zech
      8:7 uses a Hiphil participle to speak of Adonai saving His people: so, He is
      rescuing them in Zechariah’s day (or rather, the author of Zechariah presents
      them as concurrent with the historical period of Zechariah 8, regardless of
      when or by whom Zechariah may actually have been written/redacted).

      Greek Zech (contra NASB,
      incidentally) translates this as PRESENT TENSE (anasozo), not as future (anasoso)


      A similar shift can be seen beginning in
      Zech 8:8, where Hebrew perfects are translated as Greek future tense. 


      My issue with the text is that the use of qatal,
      yiqtol and wayiqtol forms in the Hebrew seems very deliberately
      designed to layer the temporal features of the oracles: Adonai HAS
      ALREADY begun to dwell in Zion; old people and children will one day sit/play
      in the streets; Adonai is currently rescuing His remnant; then in verse 8: “I
      HAVE brought them, I HAVE SETTLED them, I WILL BE their G-d.


      Colleagues: What are your thoughts on this comparison of
      Hebrew and Greek Zechariah? 



      As far as I can tell, there are no textual variants to suggest that the
      differences are due to a different Vorlage, and no Greek witnesses seem to
      attest to readings of the Hebrew close to mine.



      This would suggest that the differences between the Greek and Hebrew may be
      motivated by the original Greek translator's desire to show these actions as
      future.  For instance, if the Greek translator produced his text during the
      Seleucid or Ptolemaic period, he may have wanted to present the Restoration as
      something that had not yet commenced in Zechariah's day; while the author of
      Hebrew Zechariah may have wanted to encourage the Returnees by describing
      events as present realities.





      Of course, I also have to rule out other possible reasons
      for this apparent translation shift (such as aspectual concerns, or other
      intra-textual influences, etc).



      So, do these texts give us different viewpoints of the events they represent in
      this section?



      I appreciate any feedback you have to offer.



      Sincerely,



      Chris Lovelace

      Th.M. Candidate, Old Testament



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Darrell Smith
      You are right. This is one of the myriad examples of how the Bible is explicit in Hebrew with realities about symbolism that cumulate so much in
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 3, 2011
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        You are right. This is one of the myriad examples of how the Bible is explicit in Hebrew with realities about symbolism that cumulate so much in Αποκαλυψίς Ιωαννοϋ. Zion is a symbol for feeding on the Lord, like sheep in a pasture grazing on τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ. When you eat the scripture the Lord is with you, in Zion. Translations in the past, even the LXX, ignore such nuances. The current translations are hardly better, involved with Law, instead of Grace. Hence, they overlook the reality of the Lord being with Man through His Logical Word.


        Ζῆ Χριστός! יְבָרֶכְךָ יָהְוֶה

        --- On Fri, 6/3/11, C L <sigebryht@...> wrote:

        From: C L <sigebryht@...>
        Subject: [lxx] Translation Shift in Greek Zechariah 8?
        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, June 3, 2011, 9:03 AM







         













        Greetings, Colleagues!



        Currently, I am considering writing my Th.M. thesis on textual issues in Greek Zechariah. 

        (For the sake of convenience, I will simply refer to Greek Zech, and base my

        observations from Rahlfs. The textual tradition is more complicated than that,

        of course, as I'm sure we all know [from Nahal Hever, the Gottingen LXX, etc.]. So,

        "Greek Zechariah" is just a label for convenience here.)



        (PLEASE NOTE: Since I'm not sure who reads this forum, I've tried to be

        respectful in the way I represent the Divine Name, and so on.  I've also

        attempted to transliterate, since I'm not sure what fonts everybody can

        read.  Please let me know if I need to alter this style.  Also, I've posted this to a the Tanak discussion group, but received no feedback yet.)



        Here is my question:



        Is there a translation shift between chapter 8 of Greek Zechariah and the Masoretic

        Text?



        If I am reading the Qal perfects correctly, then Hebrew Zechariah seems to

        clearly view these events as having already transpired. Consider:



        Zechariah, Chapter 8 (Modified

        from NASB)



        8:1 Then was (WYHY) the word of ADONAI

        of hosts saying,



        8:2 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts,



        'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion,



        with great wrath I am jealous for her.'



        8:3 "Thus says ADONAI,



        'I HAVE RETURNED (SHAVTI: Qal perfect, no waw)

        to Zion



        and I HAVE COME TO DWELL (waw sheva + Qal

        Perfect.  This is not without problems.  If “come to dwell” were

        intended here, wouldn’t Piel express that better?) in the midst of Jerusalem.



        Then Jerusalem WAS CALLED (waw sheva + Niphal

        Perfect) the City of Truth,



        and the mountain

        of ADONAI of hosts [was called] the

        Holy Mountain.'



        (This is

        mainly where my questions lie: Greek Zech [and NASB] reports these actions with future tense, but for

        that to be the case in the Hebrew, the first verb should be imperfect

        ASHAV.  So, ADONAI has ALREADY come to dwell in Zion, according to Zech 8:3, but is still EXPECTED

        to dwell in Zion according to Greek Zech. This is made even

        more poignant by the use of IMPERFECT)



        8:4 "Thus says ADONAI of

        hosts,



        'Old men and old women will again sit (QAL

        Imperfect, no waw) in the streets of Jerusalem,



        each man with his staff in his hand because of

        age.



        8:5 'And the streets of the city will be

        filled (Niphal Impf, no waw) with boys and girls playing in its streets.'



        8:6 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts, 'If

        it WILL BE TOO DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal

        impf) in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days,



        WILL IT [ALSO] BE TOO

        DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal impf) in My sight?'



        declares ADONAI of hosts.



        [Petuhah]



         



        So, there clearly seems to be a distinction in

        the Masoretic Text between past and future events: ADONAI is CURRENTLY in Zion,

        having just returned as the Exiles are restored to the Land.  As a result,

        old people and children will one day have no fear to amuse themselves out in

        the open, as the Divine Government is established (in the future).



        However, Greek Zechariah seems to see all these

        events as future.



        If we continue through the chapter, Hebrew Zech

        8:7 uses a Hiphil participle to speak of Adonai saving His people: so, He is

        rescuing them in Zechariah’s day (or rather, the author of Zechariah presents

        them as concurrent with the historical period of Zechariah 8, regardless of

        when or by whom Zechariah may actually have been written/redacted).



        Greek Zech (contra NASB,

        incidentally) translates this as PRESENT TENSE (anasozo), not as future (anasoso)



        A similar shift can be seen beginning in

        Zech 8:8, where Hebrew perfects are translated as Greek future tense. 



        My issue with the text is that the use of qatal,

        yiqtol and wayiqtol forms in the Hebrew seems very deliberately

        designed to layer the temporal features of the oracles: Adonai HAS

        ALREADY begun to dwell in Zion; old people and children will one day sit/play

        in the streets; Adonai is currently rescuing His remnant; then in verse 8: “I

        HAVE brought them, I HAVE SETTLED them, I WILL BE their G-d.



        Colleagues: What are your thoughts on this comparison of

        Hebrew and Greek Zechariah? 



        As far as I can tell, there are no textual variants to suggest that the

        differences are due to a different Vorlage, and no Greek witnesses seem to

        attest to readings of the Hebrew close to mine.



        This would suggest that the differences between the Greek and Hebrew may be

        motivated by the original Greek translator's desire to show these actions as

        future.  For instance, if the Greek translator produced his text during the

        Seleucid or Ptolemaic period, he may have wanted to present the Restoration as

        something that had not yet commenced in Zechariah's day; while the author of

        Hebrew Zechariah may have wanted to encourage the Returnees by describing

        events as present realities.



        Of course, I also have to rule out other possible reasons

        for this apparent translation shift (such as aspectual concerns, or other

        intra-textual influences, etc).



        So, do these texts give us different viewpoints of the events they represent in

        this section?



        I appreciate any feedback you have to offer.



        Sincerely,



        Chris Lovelace



        Th.M. Candidate, Old Testament



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ken Penner
        Let me see if I understand your questions. In Zechariah 8, are the tenses translated in an unexpected way? Here are the expected patterns: According to
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 3, 2011
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          Let me see if I understand your questions.
          In Zechariah 8, are the tenses translated in an unexpected way?

          Here are the expected patterns:
          According to Logos’s LXX (without doing a manual check), in Zechariah, the wayyiqtol gets translated as aorist 166 out of 183 times; as future 14 times.
          The weqatal gets translated as future 149 out of 159 times; as aorist 3 times.
          The yiqtol is future 104 of 152 times; aorist 24x.
          Qatal is aorist 60/137; present 29x; future 12x.

          In Zechariah 8, some patterns are different.
          First, the most common verb form in this chapter is qatal (25x), and yiqtol second (14x).
          Second, those qatals are often translated as presents 11x, but those are all אמר as λεγει. But only two of the qatals become futures: the one in 8:3, and another in 8:10.
          But weqatal is translated as future (or aorist subjunctive), as expected.

          The simple answer is that the translator misread shavti as if it had a waw prefix, i.e., as a weqatal form. That explains the και and the tense shift at the same time.
          The other tenses are as expected: waw + sheva + perfect normally becomes future in Greek.

          Ken

          Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
          Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
          http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
          kpenner@...




          From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C L
          Sent: June-03-11 1:04 PM
          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [lxx] Translation Shift in Greek Zechariah 8?




          Greetings, Colleagues!

          Currently, I am considering writing my Th.M. thesis on textual issues in Greek Zechariah.
          (For the sake of convenience, I will simply refer to Greek Zech, and base my
          observations from Rahlfs. The textual tradition is more complicated than that,
          of course, as I'm sure we all know [from Nahal Hever, the Gottingen LXX, etc.]. So,
          "Greek Zechariah" is just a label for convenience here.)

          (PLEASE NOTE: Since I'm not sure who reads this forum, I've tried to be
          respectful in the way I represent the Divine Name, and so on. I've also
          attempted to transliterate, since I'm not sure what fonts everybody can
          read. Please let me know if I need to alter this style. Also, I've posted this to a the Tanak discussion group, but received no feedback yet.)

          Here is my question:

          Is there a translation shift between chapter 8 of Greek Zechariah and the Masoretic
          Text?

          If I am reading the Qal perfects correctly, then Hebrew Zechariah seems to
          clearly view these events as having already transpired. Consider:

          Zechariah, Chapter 8 (Modified
          from NASB)

          8:1 Then was (WYHY) the word of ADONAI
          of hosts saying,

          8:2 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts,

          'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion,

          with great wrath I am jealous for her.'

          8:3 "Thus says ADONAI,

          'I HAVE RETURNED (SHAVTI: Qal perfect, no waw)
          to Zion

          and I HAVE COME TO DWELL (waw sheva + Qal
          Perfect. This is not without problems. If “come to dwell” were
          intended here, wouldn’t Piel express that better?) in the midst of Jerusalem.

          Then Jerusalem WAS CALLED (waw sheva + Niphal
          Perfect) the City of Truth,

          and the mountain
          of ADONAI of hosts [was called] the
          Holy Mountain.'

          (This is
          mainly where my questions lie: Greek Zech [and NASB] reports these actions with future tense, but for
          that to be the case in the Hebrew, the first verb should be imperfect
          ASHAV. So, ADONAI has ALREADY come to dwell in Zion, according to Zech 8:3, but is still EXPECTED
          to dwell in Zion according to Greek Zech. This is made even
          more poignant by the use of IMPERFECT)

          8:4 "Thus says ADONAI of
          hosts,

          'Old men and old women will again sit (QAL
          Imperfect, no waw) in the streets of Jerusalem,

          each man with his staff in his hand because of
          age.

          8:5 'And the streets of the city will be
          filled (Niphal Impf, no waw) with boys and girls playing in its streets.'

          8:6 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts, 'If
          it WILL BE TOO DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal
          impf) in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days,

          WILL IT [ALSO] BE TOO
          DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal impf) in My sight?'

          declares ADONAI of hosts.

          [Petuhah]



          So, there clearly seems to be a distinction in
          the Masoretic Text between past and future events: ADONAI is CURRENTLY in Zion,
          having just returned as the Exiles are restored to the Land. As a result,
          old people and children will one day have no fear to amuse themselves out in
          the open, as the Divine Government is established (in the future).

          However, Greek Zechariah seems to see all these
          events as future.

          If we continue through the chapter, Hebrew Zech
          8:7 uses a Hiphil participle to speak of Adonai saving His people: so, He is
          rescuing them in Zechariah’s day (or rather, the author of Zechariah presents
          them as concurrent with the historical period of Zechariah 8, regardless of
          when or by whom Zechariah may actually have been written/redacted).

          Greek Zech (contra NASB,
          incidentally) translates this as PRESENT TENSE (anasozo), not as future (anasoso)

          A similar shift can be seen beginning in
          Zech 8:8, where Hebrew perfects are translated as Greek future tense.

          My issue with the text is that the use of qatal,
          yiqtol and wayiqtol forms in the Hebrew seems very deliberately
          designed to layer the temporal features of the oracles: Adonai HAS
          ALREADY begun to dwell in Zion; old people and children will one day sit/play
          in the streets; Adonai is currently rescuing His remnant; then in verse 8: “I
          HAVE brought them, I HAVE SETTLED them, I WILL BE their G-d.

          Colleagues: What are your thoughts on this comparison of
          Hebrew and Greek Zechariah?

          As far as I can tell, there are no textual variants to suggest that the
          differences are due to a different Vorlage, and no Greek witnesses seem to
          attest to readings of the Hebrew close to mine.

          This would suggest that the differences between the Greek and Hebrew may be
          motivated by the original Greek translator's desire to show these actions as
          future. For instance, if the Greek translator produced his text during the
          Seleucid or Ptolemaic period, he may have wanted to present the Restoration as
          something that had not yet commenced in Zechariah's day; while the author of
          Hebrew Zechariah may have wanted to encourage the Returnees by describing
          events as present realities.

          Of course, I also have to rule out other possible reasons
          for this apparent translation shift (such as aspectual concerns, or other
          intra-textual influences, etc).

          So, do these texts give us different viewpoints of the events they represent in
          this section?

          I appreciate any feedback you have to offer.

          Sincerely,

          Chris Lovelace

          Th.M. Candidate, Old Testament

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robert Kraft
          In your work, please feel free to make use of the CATSS online texts for variants (Goettingen) and for parallel Hebrew/Greek materials:
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 3, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            In your work, please feel free to make use of the CATSS online texts for
            variants (Goettingen) and for parallel Hebrew/Greek materials:

            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/4Prophets/MinorProphets/11Zechariah.html
            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/38.Zech.par

            In the passages you cite, as you note, there is little variation in the
            preserved Greek materials.

            Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS/CCAT

            On 6/3/2011 12:03 PM, C L wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Greetings, Colleagues!
            >
            > Currently, I am considering writing my Th.M. thesis on textual issues
            > in Greek Zechariah.
            > (For the sake of convenience, I will simply refer to Greek Zech, and
            > base my
            > observations from Rahlfs. The textual tradition is more complicated
            > than that,
            > of course, as I'm sure we all know [from Nahal Hever, the Gottingen
            > LXX, etc.]. So,
            > "Greek Zechariah" is just a label for convenience here.)
            >
            > (PLEASE NOTE: Since I'm not sure who reads this forum, I've tried to be
            > respectful in the way I represent the Divine Name, and so on. I've also
            > attempted to transliterate, since I'm not sure what fonts everybody can
            > read. Please let me know if I need to alter this style. Also, I've
            > posted this to a the Tanak discussion group, but received no feedback
            > yet.)
            >
            > Here is my question:
            >
            > Is there a translation shift between chapter 8 of Greek Zechariah and
            > the Masoretic
            > Text?
            >
            > If I am reading the Qal perfects correctly, then Hebrew Zechariah seems to
            > clearly view these events as having already transpired. Consider:
            >
            > Zechariah, Chapter 8 (Modified
            > from NASB)
            >
            > 8:1 Then was (WYHY) the word of ADONAI
            > of hosts saying,
            >
            > 8:2 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts,
            >
            > 'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion,
            >
            > with great wrath I am jealous for her.'
            >
            > 8:3 "Thus says ADONAI,
            >
            > 'I HAVE RETURNED (SHAVTI: Qal perfect, no waw)
            > to Zion
            >
            > and I HAVE COME TO DWELL (waw sheva + Qal
            > Perfect. This is not without problems. If “come to dwell” were
            > intended here, wouldn’t Piel express that better?) in the midst of
            > Jerusalem.
            >
            > Then Jerusalem WAS CALLED (waw sheva + Niphal
            > Perfect) the City of Truth,
            >
            > and the mountain
            > of ADONAI of hosts [was called] the
            > Holy Mountain.'
            >
            > (This is
            > mainly where my questions lie: Greek Zech [and NASB] reports these
            > actions with future tense, but for
            > that to be the case in the Hebrew, the first verb should be imperfect
            > ASHAV. So, ADONAI has ALREADY come to dwell in Zion, according to
            > Zech 8:3, but is still EXPECTED
            > to dwell in Zion according to Greek Zech. This is made even
            > more poignant by the use of IMPERFECT)
            >
            > 8:4 "Thus says ADONAI of
            > hosts,
            >
            > 'Old men and old women will again sit (QAL
            > Imperfect, no waw) in the streets of Jerusalem,
            >
            > each man with his staff in his hand because of
            > age.
            >
            > 8:5 'And the streets of the city will be
            > filled (Niphal Impf, no waw) with boys and girls playing in its streets.'
            >
            > 8:6 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts, 'If
            > it WILL BE TOO DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal
            > impf) in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days,
            >
            > WILL IT [ALSO] BE TOO
            > DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal impf) in My sight?'
            >
            > declares ADONAI of hosts.
            >
            > [Petuhah]
            >
            >
            >
            > So, there clearly seems to be a distinction in
            > the Masoretic Text between past and future events: ADONAI is CURRENTLY
            > in Zion,
            > having just returned as the Exiles are restored to the Land. As a result,
            > old people and children will one day have no fear to amuse themselves
            > out in
            > the open, as the Divine Government is established (in the future).
            >
            > However, Greek Zechariah seems to see all these
            > events as future.
            >
            > If we continue through the chapter, Hebrew Zech
            > 8:7 uses a Hiphil participle to speak of Adonai saving His people: so,
            > He is
            > rescuing them in Zechariah’s day (or rather, the author of Zechariah
            > presents
            > them as concurrent with the historical period of Zechariah 8,
            > regardless of
            > when or by whom Zechariah may actually have been written/redacted).
            >
            > Greek Zech (contra NASB,
            > incidentally) translates this as PRESENT TENSE (anasozo), not as
            > future (anasoso)
            >
            > A similar shift can be seen beginning in
            > Zech 8:8, where Hebrew perfects are translated as Greek future tense.
            >
            > My issue with the text is that the use of qatal,
            > yiqtol and wayiqtol forms in the Hebrew seems very deliberately
            > designed to layer the temporal features of the oracles: Adonai HAS
            > ALREADY begun to dwell in Zion; old people and children will one day
            > sit/play
            > in the streets; Adonai is currently rescuing His remnant; then in
            > verse 8: “I
            > HAVE brought them, I HAVE SETTLED them, I WILL BE their G-d.
            >
            > Colleagues: What are your thoughts on this comparison of
            > Hebrew and Greek Zechariah?
            >
            > As far as I can tell, there are no textual variants to suggest that the
            > differences are due to a different Vorlage, and no Greek witnesses seem to
            > attest to readings of the Hebrew close to mine.
            >
            > This would suggest that the differences between the Greek and Hebrew
            > may be
            > motivated by the original Greek translator's desire to show these
            > actions as
            > future. For instance, if the Greek translator produced his text
            > during the
            > Seleucid or Ptolemaic period, he may have wanted to present the
            > Restoration as
            > something that had not yet commenced in Zechariah's day; while the
            > author of
            > Hebrew Zechariah may have wanted to encourage the Returnees by describing
            > events as present realities.
            >
            > Of course, I also have to rule out other possible reasons
            > for this apparent translation shift (such as aspectual concerns, or other
            > intra-textual influences, etc).
            >
            > So, do these texts give us different viewpoints of the events they
            > represent in
            > this section?
            >
            > I appreciate any feedback you have to offer.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            >
            > Chris Lovelace
            >
            > Th.M. Candidate, Old Testament
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Yahunathan and the CF's
            Chris, Regarding your Please note:... paragraph below, thanks for being respectful TO HIM by not being like the prophets of falsehood who tried to make His
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 8, 2011
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              Chris,

              Regarding your "Please note:..." paragraph below, thanks for being respectful TO HIM by not being like the prophets of falsehood who tried to make His people forget HIS NAME by their dreams(deceit in their own hearts) which everyone relates to his neighbor, as their fathers forgot His name for ba'al(Jer. 23:25-27...). Thank you for having a heart for Deb./Deut. 4:2 and Prov./Mish. 30:6, and knowing that He is YHUH(yod-hey-uau-hey) and shall not change(Mal. 3:6). Regarding your study, no particular feedback except "Awesome, keep it up!" and keep us informed about all the truth that is revealed to you. Ab will approve. I for one don't have but a kindergarten level understanding of Scriptural Hebrew grammar, so power on, and thanks for the tasty tidbits.

              Blessings! Jon

              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              From: sigebryht@...
              Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 09:03:57 -0700
              Subject: [lxx] Translation Shift in Greek Zechariah 8?
































              Greetings, Colleagues!



              Currently, I am considering writing my Th.M. thesis on textual issues in Greek Zechariah.

              (For the sake of convenience, I will simply refer to Greek Zech, and base my

              observations from Rahlfs. The textual tradition is more complicated than that,

              of course, as I'm sure we all know [from Nahal Hever, the Gottingen LXX, etc.]. So,

              "Greek Zechariah" is just a label for convenience here.)



              (PLEASE NOTE: Since I'm not sure who reads this forum, I've tried to be

              respectful in the way I represent the Divine Name, and so on. I've also

              attempted to transliterate, since I'm not sure what fonts everybody can

              read. Please let me know if I need to alter this style. Also, I've posted this to a the Tanak discussion group, but received no feedback yet.)



              Here is my question:



              Is there a translation shift between chapter 8 of Greek Zechariah and the Masoretic

              Text?



              If I am reading the Qal perfects correctly, then Hebrew Zechariah seems to

              clearly view these events as having already transpired. Consider:



              Zechariah, Chapter 8 (Modified

              from NASB)



              8:1 Then was (WYHY) the word of ADONAI

              of hosts saying,



              8:2 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts,



              'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion,



              with great wrath I am jealous for her.'



              8:3 "Thus says ADONAI,



              'I HAVE RETURNED (SHAVTI: Qal perfect, no waw)

              to Zion



              and I HAVE COME TO DWELL (waw sheva + Qal

              Perfect. This is not without problems. If �come to dwell� were

              intended here, wouldn�t Piel express that better?) in the midst of Jerusalem.



              Then Jerusalem WAS CALLED (waw sheva + Niphal

              Perfect) the City of Truth,



              and the mountain

              of ADONAI of hosts [was called] the

              Holy Mountain.'



              (This is

              mainly where my questions lie: Greek Zech [and NASB] reports these actions with future tense, but for

              that to be the case in the Hebrew, the first verb should be imperfect

              ASHAV. So, ADONAI has ALREADY come to dwell in Zion, according to Zech 8:3, but is still EXPECTED

              to dwell in Zion according to Greek Zech. This is made even

              more poignant by the use of IMPERFECT)



              8:4 "Thus says ADONAI of

              hosts,



              'Old men and old women will again sit (QAL

              Imperfect, no waw) in the streets of Jerusalem,



              each man with his staff in his hand because of

              age.



              8:5 'And the streets of the city will be

              filled (Niphal Impf, no waw) with boys and girls playing in its streets.'



              8:6 "Thus says ADONAI of hosts, 'If

              it WILL BE TOO DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal

              impf) in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days,



              WILL IT [ALSO] BE TOO

              DIFFICULT/ASTONISHING (Niphal impf) in My sight?'



              declares ADONAI of hosts.



              [Petuhah]







              So, there clearly seems to be a distinction in

              the Masoretic Text between past and future events: ADONAI is CURRENTLY in Zion,

              having just returned as the Exiles are restored to the Land. As a result,

              old people and children will one day have no fear to amuse themselves out in

              the open, as the Divine Government is established (in the future).



              However, Greek Zechariah seems to see all these

              events as future.



              If we continue through the chapter, Hebrew Zech

              8:7 uses a Hiphil participle to speak of Adonai saving His people: so, He is

              rescuing them in Zechariah�s day (or rather, the author of Zechariah presents

              them as concurrent with the historical period of Zechariah 8, regardless of

              when or by whom Zechariah may actually have been written/redacted).



              Greek Zech (contra NASB,

              incidentally) translates this as PRESENT TENSE (anasozo), not as future (anasoso)



              A similar shift can be seen beginning in

              Zech 8:8, where Hebrew perfects are translated as Greek future tense.



              My issue with the text is that the use of qatal,

              yiqtol and wayiqtol forms in the Hebrew seems very deliberately

              designed to layer the temporal features of the oracles: Adonai HAS

              ALREADY begun to dwell in Zion; old people and children will one day sit/play

              in the streets; Adonai is currently rescuing His remnant; then in verse 8: �I

              HAVE brought them, I HAVE SETTLED them, I WILL BE their G-d.



              Colleagues: What are your thoughts on this comparison of

              Hebrew and Greek Zechariah?



              As far as I can tell, there are no textual variants to suggest that the

              differences are due to a different Vorlage, and no Greek witnesses seem to

              attest to readings of the Hebrew close to mine.



              This would suggest that the differences between the Greek and Hebrew may be

              motivated by the original Greek translator's desire to show these actions as

              future. For instance, if the Greek translator produced his text during the

              Seleucid or Ptolemaic period, he may have wanted to present the Restoration as

              something that had not yet commenced in Zechariah's day; while the author of

              Hebrew Zechariah may have wanted to encourage the Returnees by describing

              events as present realities.



              Of course, I also have to rule out other possible reasons

              for this apparent translation shift (such as aspectual concerns, or other

              intra-textual influences, etc).



              So, do these texts give us different viewpoints of the events they represent in

              this section?



              I appreciate any feedback you have to offer.



              Sincerely,



              Chris Lovelace



              Th.M. Candidate, Old Testament



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • C L
              Dear Jon, Thank you for your encouragement.  As I noted before, posting to these forums is somewhat of a new experience for me, so I appreciate any further
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 10, 2011
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                Dear Jon,
                Thank you for your encouragement.  As I noted before, posting to these forums is somewhat of a new experience for me, so I appreciate any further feedback you may have on etiquette, or on accepted forms of representing ADONAI and His revelation, etc.

                May His Peace be with you.

                Chris



                Posted by: "Yahunathan and the CF's"
                westcot@...


                Wed Jun 8, 2011 3:10 pm (PDT)







                Chris,



                Regarding your "Please note:..." paragraph below, thanks for being
                respectful TO HIM by not being like the prophets of falsehood who tried
                to make His people forget HIS NAME by their dreams(deceit in their own
                hearts) which everyone relates to his neighbor, as their fathers forgot
                His name for ba'al(Jer. 23:25-27...) . Thank you for having a heart for
                Deb./Deut. 4:2 and Prov./Mish. 30:6, and knowing that He is
                YHUH(yod-hey- uau-hey) and shall not change(Mal. 3:6). Regarding your
                study, no particular feedback except "Awesome, keep it up!" and keep us
                informed about all the truth that is revealed to you. Ab will approve. I
                for one don't have but a kindergarten level understanding of Scriptural
                Hebrew grammar, so power on, and thanks for the tasty tidbits.



                Blessings! Jon



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Yahunathan and the CF's
                Hi Chris, From the start I realized that this forum s specific purpose was to advance and share knowledge pertinent to the Septuagint specifically and I
                Message 7 of 7 , Jun 13, 2011
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                  Hi Chris,

                  From the start I realized that this forum's specific purpose was to advance and share knowledge pertinent to the Septuagint specifically and I respect that completely. I assume that might include discussions about how the Septuagint unlawfully/untorahfully alters the true breathed Words of Elohim. Nevertheless, my current role is to sit back and become accustomed to the rhythm and direction of the discussions and marvel at the many things that are way over my head. I am interested in the Septuagint and that's why I'm here.

                  In terms of "accepted forms of representing ADONAI" I only know of one: ADONAI; or better yet aleph-dalet uau-nun-yod, adoni. Anyway, the accepted way to represent something that the Creator breathed is the way He breathed it: yod-hey-uau-hey for yod-hey-uau-hey, aleph-lamed-hey-yod-mem for aleph-lamed-hey-yod-mem, etc. The fleshly man in me who's dying daily would love to puff up and believe he has authority to represent Scripture any way he'd like to, but the Ruach(resh-uau-chet) in me honors, obeys, and preserves the Words of the Ruach in truth.

                  Blessings! Jon P.S. There may be some who would prefer that we discussed these issues on a more personal basis and I respect that. Please write me outside the forum at westcot@...



                  To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  From: sigebryht@...
                  Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:29:57 -0700
                  Subject: [lxx] Re: Translation Shift in Greek Zechariah 8?










                  Dear Jon,
                  Thank you for your encouragement. As I noted before, posting to these forums is somewhat of a new experience for me, so I appreciate any further feedback you may have on etiquette, or on accepted forms of representing ADONAI and His revelation, etc.

                  May His Peace be with you.

                  Chris

                  Posted by: "Yahunathan and the CF's"
                  westcot@...


                  Wed Jun 8, 2011 3:10 pm (PDT)

                  Chris,

                  Regarding your "Please note:..." paragraph below, thanks for being
                  respectful TO HIM by not being like the prophets of falsehood who tried
                  to make His people forget HIS NAME by their dreams(deceit in their own
                  hearts) which everyone relates to his neighbor, as their fathers forgot
                  His name for ba'al(Jer. 23:25-27...) . Thank you for having a heart for
                  Deb./Deut. 4:2 and Prov./Mish. 30:6, and knowing that He is
                  YHUH(yod-hey- uau-hey) and shall not change(Mal. 3:6). Regarding your
                  study, no particular feedback except "Awesome, keep it up!" and keep us
                  informed about all the truth that is revealed to you. Ab will approve. I
                  for one don't have but a kindergarten level understanding of Scriptural
                  Hebrew grammar, so power on, and thanks for the tasty tidbits.

                  Blessings! Jon

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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