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Re: [lxx] Gen:1-2

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  • James
    My error; jetmec43 we can continue off list if you like. James
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 30, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      My error;

      jetmec43 we can continue off list if you like.

      James

      On 4/30/2011 3:16 PM, LXX List moderator wrote:
      >
      > Someone needs to tell us what this thread has to do with the
      > Septuagint. Like, maybe, relating it to the Greek rendering of these
      > verses. If the discussion can't be related to the topic on which this
      > list is centered--the LXX--it should be pursued off-list.
      >
      > Mods
      >
      > --- On Sat, 4/30/11, James <jamesjay@...
      > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>> wrote:
      >
      > > From: James <jamesjay@... <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>>
      > > Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen:1-2
      > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Date: Saturday, April 30, 2011, 2:58 PM
      > >
      > >
      > > On 4/30/2011 1:04 PM, jetmec43@... <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>
      > > wrote:
      > > > GOD doesn't create things tohu wa bohu.
      > > ...
      > > Well Genesis says otherwise. When God created the earth it
      > > was tohu wa
      > > bohu.
      > > 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the
      > > earth.
      > > 2 And the earth [which God created in the beginning]
      > > was without form,
      > > and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And
      > > the Spirit of
      > > God moved upon the face of the waters.
      > >
      > > ....
      > > > Everything GOD creates is PERFECT. See the
      > > point. Thats why the
      > > > earth BECAME toho wa bohu.
      > > .....
      > > And what, in your opinion was it before it became tohu wa
      > > bohu?
      > >
      > > James
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: James <jamesjay@... <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>>
      > > > To: lxx <lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > > > Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2011 10:51 am
      > > > Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen:1-2
      > > >
      > > > you ask how the earth became tohu va bohu?
      > > >
      > > > It was like that when God created it.
      > > >
      > > > James
      > > >
      > > > On 4/29/2011 7:16 PM, James wrote:
      > > > > Hello;
      > > > >
      > > > > On 4/29/2011 5:32 PM, jetmec43@... <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>
      > > <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >> Hello, I'm neither a Hebrew nor a Greek
      > > scholar,
      > > > > ...
      > > > > Me needer.
      > > > > ....
      > > > >> I came across this website by chance and
      > > thought I'd post some
      > > > >> comments on what I've learned about Bible
      > > Doctrine.
      > > > > ......
      > > > > Great.
      > > > > ...
      > > > >> Considering you are correct in your
      > > translation of Gen 1:2, my next
      > > > >> question is if in verse 1 GOD created, then
      > > why is verse 2 saying the
      > > > >> earth "was" waste and void. Are translators
      > > 'implying that GOD
      > > > >> created the eartth "waste and void????
      > > > > ........
      > > > > Yeah. That is what it says, The rest of the
      > > chapter is an account of
      > > > > how God filled it in!
      > > > >
      > > > > James
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> -----Original Message-----
      > > > >> From: James <jamesjay@... <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>
      > > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>>
      > > > >> To: jetmec43 <jetmec43@... <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>
      > > <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>>
      > > > >> Sent: Fri, Apr 29, 2011 3:29 pm
      > > > >> Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen:1-2
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> On 4/29/2011 11:03 AM,jetmec43@... <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>
      > > <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>
      > > > <mailto:jetmec43@... <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>
      > > <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>> wrote:
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > I meant in english.........sorry
      > > > >>
      > > > >> .........
      > > > >>
      > > > >> Oh..... Ok. In that case;
      > > > >>
      > > > >> 1 In the beginning God created the heavens
      > > and the earth.
      > > > >>
      > > > >> 2 And the earth was waste and void; and
      > > darkness was upon the face of
      > > > >>
      > > > >> the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon
      > > the face of the waters.
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> James
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > -----Original Message-----
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > From: James<jamesjay@...
      > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>
      > >
      > > > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com> <mailto:jamesjay@...
      > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>
      > >
      > > > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>>>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > To: lxx<lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > <mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>>>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > Sent: Fri, Apr 29, 2011 10:27 am
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen:1-2
      > > > >>
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > On 4/29/2011 12:41 AM, jetmec43 wrote:
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > > Can anyone tell me exactly what Gen
      > > 1:2 says in the Hebrew?
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > ....
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > Yeah. It says... barasheeth bara eloheim
      > > et hashamyim va et
      > > > >> haeretz. Va
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > haeretz hiyatah toehoo va voehoo. Va
      > > hoshek al penae tahome. Va ruach
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > eloheim merehepeth hamyim.
      > > > >>
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > James
      > > > >>
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > No virus found in this message.
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > Checked by AVG -www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
      > > > <http://www.avg.com/>
      > > > >> <http://www.avg..com <http://www.avg.com/> <http://www.avg..com/
      > > > <http://www.avg.com/>>>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database:
      > > 1500/3604 - Release Date:
      > > > >> 04/29/11
      > > > >>
      > > > >> >
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > >> No virus found in this message.
      > > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
      > > > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>>
      > > > >> Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database:
      > > 1500/3605 - Release Date: 04/29/11
      > > > >>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > No virus found in this message.
      > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
      > > > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3606 -
      > > Release Date: 04/30/11
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > > lxx-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:lxx-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
      > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3606 - Release Date: 04/30/11
      >
    • mej1960
      Two problems with this link 1) That is the old Gesenius version of the Lexicon, not the Brown Driver Briggs, which is a heavy revision and updating of Gesenius
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 30, 2011
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        Two problems with this link 1) That is the old Gesenius version of the Lexicon, not the Brown Driver Briggs, which is a heavy revision and updating of Gesenius 2) it is only a very partial scan. It is missing many pages, in particular, the pages that would cover 'tohu' and 'bohu'.

        But since the Moderators have already justly complained that this thread has lost connection to LXX topics, I will try to re-establish the connection by pointing out that without referring to BDB or a good theological dictionary of the OT, it is unrealistic to expect to be able to figure out why the translator(s) translated these words as αόρατος and ακατασκέυαστος (aoratos and akataskeuastos). Did he/they, for example, choose the latter specifically to avoid the word 'chaos', which might have reminded the reader too much of Greek creation myths?

        --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Darrell Smith <sceptreofjudah@...> wrote:
        >
        > Wikisource has BDB.
        >
        > http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:A_Hebrew_and_English_Lexicon_%28Brown-Driver-Briggs%29.djvu
        >
        >
        > Ζῆ Χριστός! יְ×`ָרֶכְךָ יָ×"ְוֶ×"
        >
        > --- On Fri, 4/29/11, mej1960 <mej1960@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: mej1960 <mej1960@...>
        > Subject: [lxx] Re: Gen:1-2
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, April 29, 2011, 9:05 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Nice try, but no. Unfortunately, neither ASCII nor ISO 8859 support the right characters to represent the schwa sound you mysteriously transcribe as 'a' in 'baresheeth', but it most certainly is not an 'a' sound. Yet even more perplexing is your choice to represent the long 'i' sound of the plural ending as 'ei' instead of 'i' as is more commonly accepted (in 'elohim').
        >
        >
        >
        > Besides: that is Gen 1:1, not 1:2!
        >
        >
        >
        > Finally, though in modern synagogues, 'et' is pronounced just like the Latin word, it is actually written as a 'th' sound, and Hebrew
        >
        > scholars do still use this pronunciation -- except perhaps when they are practicing for reading in the synagogue;)
        >
        >
        >
        > But more seriously now: I think we all know that your post does not really answer the OPs question, fun though it may have been. Yet without knowing more about what he really meant to get at by asking it, it really is hard to answer any better. Certainly the English translation from the Jewish Bible does not answer it any better.
        >
        >
        >
        > My guess is that what he is after is the real meaning of the words you transcribe as 'toehoo' and 'voehoo' (more conventionally transcribed as 'tohu' and 'bohu'). But that is only a guess. If my guess is right, the OP should spend a little time with the BDB lexicon entries for both these words. They are H8414 and H922 respectively.
        >
        >
        >
        > Once upon a time, I knew where to find online access to BDB, but I can't find it now.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, James <jamesjay@> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > On 4/29/2011 12:41 AM, jetmec43 wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Can anyone tell me exactly what Gen 1:2 says in the Hebrew?
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > ...
        >
        > > Yeah. It says... barasheeth bara eloheim et hashamyim va et haeretz. Va
        >
        > > haeretz hiyatah toehoo va voehoo. Va hoshek al penae tahome. Va ruach
        >
        > > eloheim merehepeth hamyim.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > James
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Cindy Smith
        Well, we don t know what the universe was before it was tohu va vohu since the story begins in medias res. However, I looked up the Greek out of curiosity,
        Message 3 of 15 , May 1, 2011
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          Well, we don't know what the universe was before it was tohu va
          vohu since the story begins in medias res. However, I looked up the
          Greek out of curiosity, and the Septuagint has he de ge en aoratos kai
          akataskeuastos, meaning "invisible" and "formless." I wonder why the
          Septuagint author(s) used aoratos (invisible, unseen) for tohu (void,
          waste)?

          Yours,

          --
          Cindy Smith
          cms@...

          Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni! "All your base are belong to us. You
          are on the way to destruction." "What you say?" "You have no chance
          to survive make your time." Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
          The Federation will be destroyed. "Ubi est mors victoria tua? ubi
          est mors stimulus tuus? Stimulus autem mortis peccatum est: virtus
          vero peccati lex. Deo autem gratias qui dedit nobis victoriam per
          Dominum nostrum Ieusum Christum" (1 Cor 15:55-57).

          A Real Live Catholic in Georgia!


          Quoting LXX List moderator <lxxmoderate@...>:

          > Someone needs to tell us what this thread has to do with the
          > Septuagint. Like, maybe, relating it to the Greek rendering of these
          > verses. If the discussion can't be related to the topic on which
          > this list is centered--the LXX--it should be pursued off-list.
          >
          > Mods
          >
          > --- On Sat, 4/30/11, James <jamesjay@...> wrote:
          >
          >> From: James <jamesjay@...>
          >> Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen:1-2
          >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          >> Date: Saturday, April 30, 2011, 2:58 PM
          >>
          >>
          >> On 4/30/2011 1:04 PM, jetmec43@...
          >> wrote:
          >> > GOD doesn't create things tohu wa bohu.
          >> ...
          >> Well Genesis says otherwise. When God created the earth it
          >> was tohu wa
          >> bohu.
          >> 1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the
          >> earth.
          >> 2  And the earth [which God created in the beginning]
          >> was without form,
          >> and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And
          >> the Spirit of
          >> God moved upon the face of the waters.
          >>
          >> ....
          >> > Everything GOD creates is PERFECT.  See the
          >> point.  Thats why the
          >> > earth BECAME toho wa bohu.
          >> .....
          >> And what, in your opinion was it before it became tohu wa
          >> bohu?
          >>
          >> James
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > -----Original Message-----
          >> > From: James <jamesjay@...>
          >> > To: lxx <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
          >> > Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2011 10:51 am
          >> > Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen:1-2
          >> >
          >> > you ask how the earth became tohu va bohu?
          >> >
          >> > It was like that when God created it.
          >> >
          >> > James
          >> >
          >> > On 4/29/2011 7:16 PM, James wrote:
          >> > > Hello;
          >> > >
          >> > > On 4/29/2011 5:32 PM, jetmec43@...
          >> <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>
          >> > wrote:
          >> > >> Hello, I'm neither a Hebrew nor a Greek
          >> scholar,
          >> > > ...
          >> > > Me needer.
          >> > > ....
          >> > >> I came across this website by chance and
          >> thought I'd post some
          >> > >> comments on what I've learned about Bible
          >> Doctrine.
          >> > > ......
          >> > > Great.
          >> > > ...
          >> > >> Considering you are correct in your
          >> translation of Gen 1:2, my next
          >> > >> question is if in verse 1 GOD created, then
          >> why is verse 2 saying the
          >> > >> earth "was" waste and void. Are translators
          >> 'implying that GOD
          >> > >> created the eartth "waste and void????
          >> > > ........
          >> > > Yeah. That is what it says, The rest of the
          >> chapter is an account of
          >> > > how God filled it in!
          >> > >
          >> > > James
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >> -----Original Message-----
          >> > >> From: James <jamesjay@...
          >> <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>>
          >> > >> To: jetmec43 <jetmec43@...
          >> <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>>
          >> > >> Sent: Fri, Apr 29, 2011 3:29 pm
          >> > >> Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen:1-2
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >> On 4/29/2011 11:03 AM,jetmec43@...
          >> <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>
          >> > <mailto:jetmec43@...
          >> <mailto:jetmec43%40aol.com>> wrote:
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > I meant in english.........sorry
          >> > >>
          >> > >> .........
          >> > >>
          >> > >> Oh..... Ok. In that case;
          >> > >>
          >> > >> 1 In the beginning God created the heavens
          >> and the earth.
          >> > >>
          >> > >> 2 And the earth was waste and void; and
          >> darkness was upon the face of
          >> > >>
          >> > >> the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon
          >> the face of the waters.
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >> James
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >> >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > -----Original Message-----
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > From: James<jamesjay@...
          >>
          >> > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com> <mailto:jamesjay@...
          >>
          >> > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>>>
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > To: lxx<lxx@yahoogroups.com
          >> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
          >> > <mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com
          >> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>>>
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > Sent: Fri, Apr 29, 2011 10:27 am
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen:1-2
          >> > >>
          >> > >> >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > On 4/29/2011 12:41 AM, jetmec43 wrote:
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > > Can anyone tell me exactly what Gen
          >> 1:2 says in the Hebrew?
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > ....
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > Yeah. It says... barasheeth bara eloheim
          >> et hashamyim va et
          >> > >> haeretz. Va
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > haeretz hiyatah toehoo va voehoo. Va
          >> hoshek al penae tahome. Va ruach
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > eloheim merehepeth hamyim.
          >> > >>
          >> > >> >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > James
          >> > >>
          >> > >> >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> >
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > No virus found in this message.
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > Checked by AVG -www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
          >> > <http://www.avg.com/>
          >> > >> <http://www.avg..com <http://www.avg.com/> <http://www.avg..com/
          >> > <http://www.avg.com/>>>
          >> > >>
          >> > >> > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database:
          >> 1500/3604 - Release Date:
          >> > >> 04/29/11
          >> > >>
          >> > >> >
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >>
          >> > >> No virus found in this message.
          >> > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
          >> > <http://www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>>
          >> > >> Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database:
          >> 1500/3605 - Release Date: 04/29/11
          >> > >>
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > No virus found in this message.
          >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
          >> > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3606 -
          >> Release Date: 04/30/11
          >> >
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>     lxx-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
        • C.N. Bartch
          The full BDB is available online from a number of sources, here is just one complete scan of it: http://www.archive.org/details/ahebrewandengli00briggoog ...
          Message 4 of 15 , May 3, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            The full BDB is available online from a number of sources, here is just one
            complete scan of it:

            http://www.archive.org/details/ahebrewandengli00briggoog

            On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 7:46 PM, mej1960 <mej1960@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Two problems with this link 1) That is the old Gesenius version of the
            > Lexicon, not the Brown Driver Briggs, which is a heavy revision and updating
            > of Gesenius 2) it is only a very partial scan. It is missing many pages, in
            > particular, the pages that would cover 'tohu' and 'bohu'.
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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