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Re: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online

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  • Pamela Bush
    The problem I m having with his reading of Hebrew???? is it???? is that he s reading from the wrong direction. He s reading from left to right when Hebrew is
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
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      The problem I'm having with his reading of Hebrew???? is it???? is that he's
      reading from the wrong direction. He's reading from left to right when
      Hebrew is read from right to left. He's also got spaces in between the
      words, which I guess could have been done for our benefit, but ancient
      Hebrew didn't have brakes between words it ran all together as one. So, if
      he flipped it somehow I'd be interested in learning how and why he did that.

      Namaste!
      Pamela

      On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 9:30 AM, DanT. <dantiller2001@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Charles Vanderpool, who translated the Apostolic Bible, has a number of
      > videos,
      > where he reads Greek, from his own text, here:
      > http://www.apostolicbible.com/videoseminars.htm
      >
      > He also has some on YouTube - search on "apostolic bible polyglot":
      > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=apostolic+bible+polyglot&aq=0
      >
      > Vanderpool is not a native Greek, and his reading is not fluent. He uses a
      > Modern Greek pronunciation.
      >
      > Dan
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: DanT. <dantiller2001@...>
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 9:22:06 AM
      > Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
      >
      > Actually, these recordings are English.
      > Apparently, I didn't read your whole question, just the first line.
      > Sorry about that.
      > Dan
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: mej1960 <mej1960@...>
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 10:36:29 PM
      > Subject: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
      >
      > I was intrigued enough to look at the website, but without downloading the
      > file,
      >
      > I cannot tell which pronunciation system the computer uses: restored
      > Classical
      > or Modern.
      >
      > The OP did not explain why he was memorizing it, so it is hard to say which
      >
      > pronunciation he wants. But if he assumes Classical and gets Modern, he may
      > be
      > quite shocked at the difference.
      >
      > Finally, memorizing based on the modern pronunciation is a little harder,
      > since
      > it is impossible to tell based on sound alone whether the computer said
      > ή,
      > οί, εί, ι, ηί, υ, υί...
      >
      > Many on the list are familiar with this itacization, since few languages
      > have
      > taken it to the extreme that Greek has; it cannot be ignored when studying
      > the
      > history of the text.
      >
      > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "DanT." <dantiller2001@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > The only one I know of is here:
      > > http://ecmarsh.com/download/index.html
      > > it's an audio of Brenton's Septuagint,
      > > unfortunately, it's read by a computer...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Peace to You <philipengmann@...>
      > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 4:44:38 AM
      > > Subject: [lxx] Audio Septuagint Online
      > >
      > >
      > > Dear LXX Listees,
      > >
      > > could anyone kindly point me to where I could obtain the audio Septuagint
      >
      > > online?
      > >
      > > I am a non-greek person trying to memorize some Greek Old Testament
      > texts, and
      >
      > >I
      > >
      > > urgently need to get the pronunciations correct from the start.
      > >
      > > Many thanks,
      > >
      > > Philip Engmann
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrew Suttles
      Alberto - I m interested in your recordings. Let me know if you ever get those uploaded someplace. Andrew ... -- v/r Andrew C. Suttles Avon Lake, Ohio
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
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        Alberto -

        I'm interested in your recordings. Let me know if you ever get those
        uploaded someplace.

        Andrew

        On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Alberto <vaqoli@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Hello Philip!
        >
        > I have the O.T. in audio, is not an english translation, is the greek text
        > in audio. I download from internet but i don't remember which page i
        > download it. It's only the protocanonical books (masoretical books), the
        > deuterocanonicals and the rest of the Septuagint they are absent.
        >
        > This audio files are in bizantine greek. The bizantine greek or medieval
        > greek is between the koine and the modern greek. It's not the real
        > Septuagint koine greek.
        >
        > I don't know if i can upload a zip file in to the Files area of the group,
        > the moderator of the gruop can tell me about that. If not i need to upload
        > to a megashare or something like that. Because the unzip files are 1.80 Gb
        > (1,937,655,940 bytes).
        >
        > Thanks a lot!
        >
        > Alberto Olivares
        > M�xico city, D.F.
        > M�xico
        >
        >
        >



        --
        v/r
        Andrew C. Suttles
        Avon Lake, Ohio


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Kraft
        Although I haven t looked at this material, which I assumed was Greek, not Hebrew, based on the earlier discussion, I did at least want to correct Pamela s
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Although I haven't looked at this material, which I assumed was Greek,
          not Hebrew, based on the earlier discussion, I did at least want to
          correct Pamela's statement that ancient Hebrew did not use spacing
          between words. The Dead Sea Scroll Hebrew does indeed employ word breaks.

          It is usually claimed that ancient GREEK was written continuously,
          without breaks, and this is confirmed by most of the preserved evidence,
          although there are also exceptions. For some details, see my meanderings
          at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html

          Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus

          On 4/8/2011 11:33 AM, Pamela Bush wrote:
          > The problem I'm having with his reading of Hebrew???? is it???? is that he's
          > reading from the wrong direction. He's reading from left to right when
          > Hebrew is read from right to left. He's also got spaces in between the
          > words, which I guess could have been done for our benefit, but ancient
          > Hebrew didn't have brakes between words it ran all together as one. So, if
          > he flipped it somehow I'd be interested in learning how and why he did that.
          >
          > Namaste!
          > Pamela
          >
          > On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 9:30 AM, DanT.<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
          >
          >>
          >> Charles Vanderpool, who translated the Apostolic Bible, has a number of
          >> videos,
          >> where he reads Greek, from his own text, here:
          >> http://www.apostolicbible.com/videoseminars.htm
          >>
          >> He also has some on YouTube - search on "apostolic bible polyglot":
          >> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=apostolic+bible+polyglot&aq=0
          >>
          >> Vanderpool is not a native Greek, and his reading is not fluent. He uses a
          >> Modern Greek pronunciation.
          >>
          >> Dan
          >>
          >> ________________________________
          >> From: DanT.<dantiller2001@...>
          >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          >> Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 9:22:06 AM
          >> Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
          >>
          >> Actually, these recordings are English.
          >> Apparently, I didn't read your whole question, just the first line.
          >> Sorry about that.
          >> Dan
          >>
          >> ________________________________
          >> From: mej1960<mej1960@...>
          >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          >> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 10:36:29 PM
          >> Subject: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
          >>
          >> I was intrigued enough to look at the website, but without downloading the
          >> file,
          >>
          >> I cannot tell which pronunciation system the computer uses: restored
          >> Classical
          >> or Modern.
          >>
          >> The OP did not explain why he was memorizing it, so it is hard to say which
          >>
          >> pronunciation he wants. But if he assumes Classical and gets Modern, he may
          >> be
          >> quite shocked at the difference.
          >>
          >> Finally, memorizing based on the modern pronunciation is a little harder,
          >> since
          >> it is impossible to tell based on sound alone whether the computer said
          >> ή,
          >> οί,εί,ι,ηί,υ,υί...
          >>
          >> Many on the list are familiar with this itacization, since few languages
          >> have
          >> taken it to the extreme that Greek has; it cannot be ignored when studying
          >> the
          >> history of the text.
          >>
          >> --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "DanT."<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
          >>> The only one I know of is here:
          >>> http://ecmarsh.com/download/index.html
          >>> it's an audio of Brenton's Septuagint,
          >>> unfortunately, it's read by a computer...
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> ________________________________
          >>> From: Peace to You<philipengmann@...>
          >>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          >>> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 4:44:38 AM
          >>> Subject: [lxx] Audio Septuagint Online
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Dear LXX Listees,
          >>>
          >>> could anyone kindly point me to where I could obtain the audio Septuagint
          >>> online?
          >>>
          >>> I am a non-greek person trying to memorize some Greek Old Testament
          >> texts, and
          >>
          >>> I
          >>>
          >>> urgently need to get the pronunciations correct from the start.
          >>>
          >>> Many thanks,
          >>>
          >>> Philip Engmann
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Pamela Bush
          *Well, it appears we’re in the right, wrong, good, bad, mentality and I see this is the preferred approach to communication here. Rather than using a more
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            *Well, it appears we�re in the right, wrong, good, bad, mentality and I see
            this is the preferred approach to communication here. Rather than using a
            more diplomatic form of communication such as, as I understand it, or, it is
            my experience that�.We are now in �correction� mode. If Bob had actually
            read my response he would have noticed I was asking the question as to what
            language was being used in this instance. I didn�t know. But I did input
            what I did know about ancient Hebrew.*

            * *

            *What I do know is that ancient Hebrew was written from right to left with
            no breaks in between. No commas, spacing, or punctuation. You�ll see a link
            to a site, at the bottom of my post, explaining this and a quote from it
            above that. I also know this because it is what I was taught while in
            Israel. An Israeli Archeologist taught me that. They also taught me Hebrew
            was a dead spoken language (European Jews mostly spoke Yiddish) until 1948
            when it became a nation again and they�re making up the pronunciation as
            they go. Another interesting note is that books sold over there have
            different info about Jesus than the books sold over here, such as the works
            of Josephus. I bought the book in Israel. Jesus is mentioned in the book I
            bought there but not as much as the versions sold in the US.*

            * *

            *The Dead Sea Scrolls were written in several languages�they were written in
            Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Cuneiform. What I saw there in the museums,
            etc., was mostly Cuneiform. They even sell T-Shirts there with Cuneiform on
            them and say they are from the Dead Sea Scrolls. All, of which, have
            different forms and rules of writing. Some of these other forms of writing
            do have the breaks in between words, but not Ancient�and I'm speaking about
            Ancient not current�.Hebrew.*

            * *

            *Namaste!*

            * *

            *Pamela [?]
            *

            * *

            * *

            *
            http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Who-Wrote-the-Dead-Sea-Scrolls.html
            *

            *
            <http://www.apu.edu/deadseascrolls/artifactindex/>*

            *http://www.apu.edu/deadseascrolls/artifactindex/*

            *
            <http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html>*

            *http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html*

            * *

            * *

            *Ancient Hebrew*


            **

            "It was written from right to left; the words contained no [written] vowels;
            there were no intervening spaces between words, and no punctuation marks.
            Even with the introduction of *vowel points* [dots or marks below the words
            that indicate vowel sounds] many words in Hebrew, as in English, have more
            than one meaning. Without these points, as originally written, the number
            is increased a hundred fold. The five English words, *bag, beg, big, bog, *and
            *buy,* are quite unlike and easily distinguished. Omit the vowels, as the
            ancient Jews did, and we have five words exactly alike, or rather, one word
            with five different meanings. The Hebrew language was thus largely composed
            of words with several mean�ings. As there were no spaces between words, it
            was sometimes hard to tell where a word began or where it ended; and as
            there were no punctuation marks, and no spaces between sentences,
            paragraphs, or even sections, it was often difficult to determine the
            meaning of a writer after the words had been deciphered."


            http://einhornpress.com/hebrew.aspx


            On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Robert Kraft <kraft@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Although I haven't looked at this material, which I assumed was Greek,
            > not Hebrew, based on the earlier discussion, I did at least want to
            > correct Pamela's statement that ancient Hebrew did not use spacing
            > between words. The Dead Sea Scroll Hebrew does indeed employ word breaks.
            >
            > It is usually claimed that ancient GREEK was written continuously,
            > without breaks, and this is confirmed by most of the preserved evidence,
            > although there are also exceptions. For some details, see my meanderings
            > at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html
            >
            > Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus
            >
            > On 4/8/2011 11:33 AM, Pamela Bush wrote:
            > > The problem I'm having with his reading of Hebrew???? is it???? is that
            > he's
            > > reading from the wrong direction. He's reading from left to right when
            > > Hebrew is read from right to left. He's also got spaces in between the
            > > words, which I guess could have been done for our benefit, but ancient
            > > Hebrew didn't have brakes between words it ran all together as one. So,
            > if
            > > he flipped it somehow I'd be interested in learning how and why he did
            > that.
            > >
            > > Namaste!
            > > Pamela
            > >
            > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 9:30 AM, DanT.<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >>
            > >> Charles Vanderpool, who translated the Apostolic Bible, has a number of
            > >> videos,
            > >> where he reads Greek, from his own text, here:
            > >> http://www.apostolicbible.com/videoseminars.htm
            > >>
            > >> He also has some on YouTube - search on "apostolic bible polyglot":
            > >>
            > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=apostolic+bible+polyglot&aq=0
            > >>
            > >> Vanderpool is not a native Greek, and his reading is not fluent. He uses
            > a
            > >> Modern Greek pronunciation.
            > >>
            > >> Dan
            > >>
            > >> ________________________________
            > >> From: DanT.<dantiller2001@...>
            > >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > >> Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 9:22:06 AM
            > >> Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
            > >>
            > >> Actually, these recordings are English.
            > >> Apparently, I didn't read your whole question, just the first line.
            > >> Sorry about that.
            > >> Dan
            > >>
            > >> ________________________________
            > >> From: mej1960<mej1960@...>
            > >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > >> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 10:36:29 PM
            > >> Subject: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
            > >>
            > >> I was intrigued enough to look at the website, but without downloading
            > the
            > >> file,
            > >>
            > >> I cannot tell which pronunciation system the computer uses: restored
            > >> Classical
            > >> or Modern.
            > >>
            > >> The OP did not explain why he was memorizing it, so it is hard to say
            > which
            > >>
            > >> pronunciation he wants. But if he assumes Classical and gets Modern, he
            > may
            > >> be
            > >> quite shocked at the difference.
            > >>
            > >> Finally, memorizing based on the modern pronunciation is a little
            > harder,
            > >> since
            > >> it is impossible to tell based on sound alone whether the computer said
            > >> ή,
            > >> οί,εί,ι,ηί,υ,υί...
            > >>
            > >> Many on the list are familiar with this itacization, since few languages
            > >> have
            > >> taken it to the extreme that Greek has; it cannot be ignored when
            > studying
            > >> the
            > >> history of the text.
            > >>
            > >> --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "DanT."<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
            > >>> The only one I know of is here:
            > >>> http://ecmarsh.com/download/index.html
            > >>> it's an audio of Brenton's Septuagint,
            > >>> unfortunately, it's read by a computer...
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>> ________________________________
            > >>> From: Peace to You<philipengmann@...>
            > >>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > >>> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 4:44:38 AM
            > >>> Subject: [lxx] Audio Septuagint Online
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>> Dear LXX Listees,
            > >>>
            > >>> could anyone kindly point me to where I could obtain the audio
            > Septuagint
            > >>> online?
            > >>>
            > >>> I am a non-greek person trying to memorize some Greek Old Testament
            > >> texts, and
            > >>
            > >>> I
            > >>>
            > >>> urgently need to get the pronunciations correct from the start.
            > >>>
            > >>> Many thanks,
            > >>>
            > >>> Philip Engmann
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>>
            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>
            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mcdevittd1@gmail.com
            Thank You Pamela, your comments were interesting. I have been in this group for awhile and for the most part it is all friendly, scholarly and helpful. It is
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank You Pamela, your comments were interesting. I have been in this group for awhile and for the most part it is all friendly, scholarly and helpful. It is always difficult in email to tell what the intent is so I always assume the best instead of the worst. The members are really very interesting and I enjoy their debates as well as your input. I'm a student so I enjoy the friendly debates. Thanks, Dan
              Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Pamela Bush <livingintheraw@...>
              Sender: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 15:45:22
              To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
              Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [lxx] Reading Ancient Hebrew

              *Well, it appears we’re in the right, wrong, good, bad, mentality and I see
              this is the preferred approach to communication here. Rather than using a
              more diplomatic form of communication such as, as I understand it, or, it is
              my experience that….We are now in “correction” mode. If Bob had actually
              read my response he would have noticed I was asking the question as to what
              language was being used in this instance. I didn’t know. But I did input
              what I did know about ancient Hebrew.*

              * *

              *What I do know is that ancient Hebrew was written from right to left with
              no breaks in between. No commas, spacing, or punctuation. You’ll see a link
              to a site, at the bottom of my post, explaining this and a quote from it
              above that. I also know this because it is what I was taught while in
              Israel. An Israeli Archeologist taught me that. They also taught me Hebrew
              was a dead spoken language (European Jews mostly spoke Yiddish) until 1948
              when it became a nation again and they’re making up the pronunciation as
              they go. Another interesting note is that books sold over there have
              different info about Jesus than the books sold over here, such as the works
              of Josephus. I bought the book in Israel. Jesus is mentioned in the book I
              bought there but not as much as the versions sold in the US.*

              * *

              *The Dead Sea Scrolls were written in several languages…they were written in
              Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Cuneiform. What I saw there in the museums,
              etc., was mostly Cuneiform. They even sell T-Shirts there with Cuneiform on
              them and say they are from the Dead Sea Scrolls. All, of which, have
              different forms and rules of writing. Some of these other forms of writing
              do have the breaks in between words, but not Ancient…and I'm speaking about
              Ancient not current….Hebrew.*

              * *

              *Namaste!*

              * *

              *Pamela [?]
              *

              * *

              * *

              *
              http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Who-Wrote-the-Dead-Sea-Scrolls.html
              *

              *
              <http://www.apu.edu/deadseascrolls/artifactindex/>*

              *http://www.apu.edu/deadseascrolls/artifactindex/*

              *
              <http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html>*

              *http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html*

              * *

              * *

              *Ancient Hebrew*


              **

              "It was written from right to left; the words contained no [written] vowels;
              there were no intervening spaces between words, and no punctuation marks.
              Even with the introduction of *vowel points* [dots or marks below the words
              that indicate vowel sounds] many words in Hebrew, as in English, have more
              than one meaning. Without these points, as originally written, the number
              is increased a hundred fold. The five English words, *bag, beg, big, bog, *and
              *buy,* are quite unlike and easily distinguished. Omit the vowels, as the
              ancient Jews did, and we have five words exactly alike, or rather, one word
              with five different meanings. The Hebrew language was thus largely composed
              of words with several mean­ings. As there were no spaces between words, it
              was sometimes hard to tell where a word began or where it ended; and as
              there were no punctuation marks, and no spaces between sentences,
              paragraphs, or even sections, it was often difficult to determine the
              meaning of a writer after the words had been deciphered."


              http://einhornpress.com/hebrew.aspx


              On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Robert Kraft <kraft@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Although I haven't looked at this material, which I assumed was Greek,
              > not Hebrew, based on the earlier discussion, I did at least want to
              > correct Pamela's statement that ancient Hebrew did not use spacing
              > between words. The Dead Sea Scroll Hebrew does indeed employ word breaks.
              >
              > It is usually claimed that ancient GREEK was written continuously,
              > without breaks, and this is confirmed by most of the preserved evidence,
              > although there are also exceptions. For some details, see my meanderings
              > at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html
              >
              > Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus
              >
              > On 4/8/2011 11:33 AM, Pamela Bush wrote:
              > > The problem I'm having with his reading of Hebrew???? is it???? is that
              > he's
              > > reading from the wrong direction. He's reading from left to right when
              > > Hebrew is read from right to left. He's also got spaces in between the
              > > words, which I guess could have been done for our benefit, but ancient
              > > Hebrew didn't have brakes between words it ran all together as one. So,
              > if
              > > he flipped it somehow I'd be interested in learning how and why he did
              > that.
              > >
              > > Namaste!
              > > Pamela
              > >
              > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 9:30 AM, DanT.<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >>
              > >> Charles Vanderpool, who translated the Apostolic Bible, has a number of
              > >> videos,
              > >> where he reads Greek, from his own text, here:
              > >> http://www.apostolicbible.com/videoseminars.htm
              > >>
              > >> He also has some on YouTube - search on "apostolic bible polyglot":
              > >>
              > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=apostolic+bible+polyglot&aq=0
              > >>
              > >> Vanderpool is not a native Greek, and his reading is not fluent. He uses
              > a
              > >> Modern Greek pronunciation.
              > >>
              > >> Dan
              > >>
              > >>________________________________
              > >> From: DanT.<dantiller2001@...>
              > >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > >> Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 9:22:06 AM
              > >> Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
              > >>
              > >> Actually, these recordings are English.
              > >> Apparently, I didn't read your whole question, just the first line.
              > >> Sorry about that.
              > >> Dan
              > >>
              > >>________________________________
              > >> From: mej1960<mej1960@...>
              > >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > >> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 10:36:29 PM
              > >> Subject: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
              > >>
              > >> I was intrigued enough to look at the website, but without downloading
              > the
              > >> file,
              > >>
              > >> I cannot tell which pronunciation system the computer uses: restored
              > >> Classical
              > >> or Modern.
              > >>
              > >> The OP did not explain why he was memorizing it, so it is hard to say
              > which
              > >>
              > >> pronunciation he wants. But if he assumes Classical and gets Modern, he
              > may
              > >> be
              > >> quite shocked at the difference.
              > >>
              > >> Finally, memorizing based on the modern pronunciation is a little
              > harder,
              > >> since
              > >> it is impossible to tell based on sound alone whether the computer said
              > >> ή,
              > >> οί,εί,ι,ηί,υ,υί...
              > >>
              > >> Many on the list are familiar with this itacization, since few languages
              > >> have
              > >> taken it to the extreme that Greek has; it cannot be ignored when
              > studying
              > >> the
              > >> history of the text.
              > >>
              > >> --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "DanT."<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
              > >>> The only one I know of is here:
              > >>> http://ecmarsh.com/download/index.html
              > >>> it's an audio of Brenton's Septuagint,
              > >>> unfortunately, it's read by a computer...
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>________________________________
              > >>> From: Peace to You<philipengmann@...>
              > >>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > >>> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 4:44:38 AM
              > >>> Subject: [lxx] Audio Septuagint Online
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> Dear LXX Listees,
              > >>>
              > >>> could anyone kindly point me to where I could obtain the audio
              > Septuagint
              > >>> online?
              > >>>
              > >>> I am a non-greek person trying to memorize some Greek Old Testament
              > >> texts, and
              > >>
              > >>> I
              > >>>
              > >>> urgently need to get the pronunciations correct from the start.
              > >>>
              > >>> Many thanks,
              > >>>
              > >>> Philip Engmann
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>>
              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>
              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Kevin P. Edgecomb
              Pamela, Professor Kraft is perfectly correct in his corrections. Part of his job as an educator has been to correct errors, to help people unlearn incorrect
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
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                Pamela, Professor Kraft is perfectly correct in his corrections. Part of his job as an educator has been to correct errors, to help people unlearn incorrect things. Don't take it so hard. He's a good deal more familiar with the subjects involved than you are, obviously, so you should graciously accept what he has to say, and read his linked article. He has much to teach.

                Regards,
                Kevin Edgecomb
                Berkeley, California
              • James Miller
                ... My limited experience of working with the DSS confirms Bob s assertion, i.e., that they are a body of ancient Hebrew writings that evidence word breaks. In
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
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                  On Fri, 8 Apr 2011, Pamela Bush wrote:

                  > *What I do know is that ancient Hebrew was written from right to left with
                  > no breaks in between. No commas, spacing, or punctuation. You?ll see a link
                  > to a site, at the bottom of my post, explaining this and a quote from it
                  > above that. I also know this because it is what I was taught while in
                  > Israel. An Israeli Archeologist taught me that.

                  My limited experience of working with the DSS confirms Bob's assertion,
                  i.e., that they are a body of ancient Hebrew writings that evidence word
                  breaks. In fact, they are the most extensive ancient Hebrew writings we
                  have: no other ancient Hebrew writings even come close to the volume of
                  material found among the DSS. Take a look at the Great Isaiah Scroll
                  images at http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qumdir.htm to confirm this for
                  yourself. If you know even a bit of Hebrew the word breaks in this 2000+
                  year old scroll will be apparent. If you know of an ancient counter
                  example, one that evidences continuous writing, without word breaks,
                  simply point it out to us. If you cannot do so, you may want to consider
                  whether your memory of what you were taught by the Israeli archeologist is
                  faulty. Or, if that really is what he taught, you might want to be a bit
                  more skeptical of his claims.

                  James
                • Pamela Bush
                  One thing I ve learned in life is that the experts can be wrong and....they love to hold onto their perceived conclusions of right and wrong because it s
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    One thing I've learned in life is that the "experts" can be wrong
                    and....they love to hold onto their perceived conclusions of right and wrong
                    because it's important for their "egos" and their expert positions of
                    hierarchy. This is part of what is wrong in the world today. Everyone picks
                    a side and says this is it and if you don't follow my way your wrong...There
                    are degrees and middle ground. There are no absolutes. And I stand by the
                    information I have shared as I have learned it from well informed scholars
                    who live it and are digging it up daily in Israel. I've seen and witnessed
                    it as well. Also, if you would follow the links I provided you'd see that
                    there are well recognized people who are saying what I said....like the
                    Smithsonian, for example. I did read his article, have you read the ones I
                    shared?? Also, trying to insult my intellegence only belittles you, not me.

                    Namaste!
                    Pamela

                    On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Kevin P. Edgecomb <kevin@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Pamela, Professor Kraft is perfectly correct in his corrections. Part of
                    > his job as an educator has been to correct errors, to help people unlearn
                    > incorrect things. Don't take it so hard. He's a good deal more familiar with
                    > the subjects involved than you are, obviously, so you should graciously
                    > accept what he has to say, and read his linked article. He has much to
                    > teach.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Kevin Edgecomb
                    > Berkeley, California
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                    Pamela, no one is belittling your intelligence. But it s necessary to point out that Prof Kraft knows more about the subject than you do. This is clear in the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
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                      Pamela, no one is belittling your intelligence. But it's necessary to point out that Prof Kraft knows more about the subject than you do. This is clear in the nature of some of your mistakes. You or your source obviously confused something, as there is no cuneiform whatsoever in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

                      In any case, don't be so touchy. It's unnecessary.

                      Regards,
                      Kevin Edgecomb
                      Berkeley, California
                      >
                    • jmurphy@usit.net
                      There are degrees and middle ground. There are no absolutes. Are you sure there are no absolutes? (Sorry, from an apologetics standpoint that was too good
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        "There are degrees and middle ground. There are no absolutes."

                        Are you sure there are no absolutes? (Sorry, from an apologetics standpoint that was too good to pass up!)

                        JB Murphy

                        Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Pamela Bush <livingintheraw@...>
                        Sender: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 18:54:36
                        To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                        Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [lxx] Reading Ancient Hebrew

                        One thing I've learned in life is that the "experts" can be wrong
                        and....they love to hold onto their perceived conclusions of right and wrong
                        because it's important for their "egos" and their expert positions of
                        hierarchy. This is part of what is wrong in the world today. Everyone picks
                        a side and says this is it and if you don't follow my way your wrong...There
                        are degrees and middle ground. There are no absolutes. And I stand by the
                        information I have shared as I have learned it from well informed scholars
                        who live it and are digging it up daily in Israel. I've seen and witnessed
                        it as well. Also, if you would follow the links I provided you'd see that
                        there are well recognized people who are saying what I said....like the
                        Smithsonian, for example. I did read his article, have you read the ones I
                        shared?? Also, trying to insult my intellegence only belittles you, not me.

                        Namaste!
                        Pamela

                        On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Kevin P. Edgecomb <kevin@...> wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Pamela, Professor Kraft is perfectly correct in his corrections. Part of
                        > his job as an educator has been to correct errors, to help people unlearn
                        > incorrect things. Don't take it so hard. He's a good deal more familiar with
                        > the subjects involved than you are, obviously, so you should graciously
                        > accept what he has to say, and read his linked article. He has much to
                        > teach.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Kevin Edgecomb
                        > Berkeley, California
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Robert Kraft
                        I apologize for introducing this tangent to the original discussion. My only point was to correct the impression that, in general, ancient Hebrew did not use
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 8, 2011
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                          I apologize for introducing this tangent to the original discussion. My
                          only point was to correct the impression that, in general, ancient
                          Hebrew did not use spacing between words, in the context of the study of
                          Jewish scriptures (the focus of this list).

                          In fact, Pamela and her sources are correct for some of the ancient
                          Hebrew (and Aramaic) evidence, such as the Lachish letters (for an
                          image, see the Wikipedia article at
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachish_letters) and a similar body of
                          "informal" writings of various sorts. Emanual Tov has discussed the
                          situation at some length in his "Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible"
                          (pages 208 and following), available online through Google books --
                          http://books.google.com/books?id=U1UfMyO-RiEC&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=word+division+hebrew&source=bl&ots=cyCHGnXAvK&sig=cVoH-qQCxadur7znyn8vXyzcp0g&hl=en&ei=NeCfTZLVJ46_gQfcrOnaBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=word%20division%20hebrew&f=false

                          Tov points out that even many ancient Semitic inscriptions, which often
                          use practices that differ from ink written texts, separate words not by
                          spaces, but by slashes or dots (similar to some ancient Latin
                          inscriptions). Although as Tov reports, some scholars have conjectured
                          that the earliest biblical texts used no word division, he is not
                          convinced since the oldest available formal evidence (especially the
                          Dead Sea Scrolls) exhibits word division. Less formal biblical materials
                          such as tefillin/phylacteries may not use such division.

                          In short, archaeologists who deal especially with inscriptional
                          evidence, and theorists who argue from analogy with other language
                          developments (such as Greek), would be especially tempted to see no word
                          divisions in early Hebrew, but if one is discussing biblical texts on
                          the basis of extant evidence, word division in ancient Hebrew scriptural
                          materials is the norm.

                          Obviously, as with most historical matters, there is no simple (or
                          "absolute") answer. But the earliest formal continuous Hebrew scriptural
                          texts available to us for examination do use word division. Some other
                          early Hebrew texts do not. For images of other examples representing
                          both phenomena, see K. C. Hanson's collection of West Semitic Documents
                          http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/westsem/westsem.html

                          With apologies to Pamela for seeming to be attacking her personally, I
                          hope we can move back to the original catalyst for this discussion, if
                          that is still desired.

                          Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus


                          On 4/8/2011 3:45 PM, Pamela Bush wrote:
                          > *Well, it appears we’re in the right, wrong, good, bad, mentality and I see
                          > this is the preferred approach to communication here. Rather than using a
                          > more diplomatic form of communication such as, as I understand it, or, it is
                          > my experience that….We are now in “correction” mode. If Bob had actually
                          > read my response he would have noticed I was asking the question as to what
                          > language was being used in this instance. I didn’t know. But I did input
                          > what I did know about ancient Hebrew.*
                          >
                          > * *
                          >
                          > *What I do know is that ancient Hebrew was written from right to left with
                          > no breaks in between. No commas, spacing, or punctuation. You’ll see a link
                          > to a site, at the bottom of my post, explaining this and a quote from it
                          > above that. I also know this because it is what I was taught while in
                          > Israel. An Israeli Archeologist taught me that. They also taught me Hebrew
                          > was a dead spoken language (European Jews mostly spoke Yiddish) until 1948
                          > when it became a nation again and they’re making up the pronunciation as
                          > they go. Another interesting note is that books sold over there have
                          > different info about Jesus than the books sold over here, such as the works
                          > of Josephus. I bought the book in Israel. Jesus is mentioned in the book I
                          > bought there but not as much as the versions sold in the US.*
                          >
                          > * *
                          >
                          > *The Dead Sea Scrolls were written in several languages…they were written in
                          > Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Cuneiform. What I saw there in the museums,
                          > etc., was mostly Cuneiform. They even sell T-Shirts there with Cuneiform on
                          > them and say they are from the Dead Sea Scrolls. All, of which, have
                          > different forms and rules of writing. Some of these other forms of writing
                          > do have the breaks in between words, but not Ancient…and I'm speaking about
                          > Ancient not current….Hebrew.*
                          >
                          > * *
                          >
                          > *Namaste!*
                          >
                          > * *
                          >
                          > *Pamela [?]
                          > *
                          >
                          > * *
                          >
                          > * *
                          >
                          > *
                          > http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Who-Wrote-the-Dead-Sea-Scrolls.html
                          > *
                          >
                          > *
                          > <http://www.apu.edu/deadseascrolls/artifactindex/>*
                          >
                          > *http://www.apu.edu/deadseascrolls/artifactindex/*
                          >
                          > *
                          > <http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html>*
                          >
                          > *http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html*
                          >
                          > * *
                          >
                          > * *
                          >
                          > *Ancient Hebrew*
                          >
                          >
                          > **
                          >
                          > "It was written from right to left; the words contained no [written] vowels;
                          > there were no intervening spaces between words, and no punctuation marks.
                          > Even with the introduction of *vowel points* [dots or marks below the words
                          > that indicate vowel sounds] many words in Hebrew, as in English, have more
                          > than one meaning. Without these points, as originally written, the number
                          > is increased a hundred fold. The five English words, *bag, beg, big, bog, *and
                          > *buy,* are quite unlike and easily distinguished. Omit the vowels, as the
                          > ancient Jews did, and we have five words exactly alike, or rather, one word
                          > with five different meanings. The Hebrew language was thus largely composed
                          > of words with several mean­ings. As there were no spaces between words, it
                          > was sometimes hard to tell where a word began or where it ended; and as
                          > there were no punctuation marks, and no spaces between sentences,
                          > paragraphs, or even sections, it was often difficult to determine the
                          > meaning of a writer after the words had been deciphered."
                          >
                          >
                          > http://einhornpress.com/hebrew.aspx
                          >
                          >
                          > On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Robert Kraft<kraft@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >>
                          >> Although I haven't looked at this material, which I assumed was Greek,
                          >> not Hebrew, based on the earlier discussion, I did at least want to
                          >> correct Pamela's statement that ancient Hebrew did not use spacing
                          >> between words. The Dead Sea Scroll Hebrew does indeed employ word breaks.
                          >>
                          >> It is usually claimed that ancient GREEK was written continuously,
                          >> without breaks, and this is confirmed by most of the preserved evidence,
                          >> although there are also exceptions. For some details, see my meanderings
                          >> at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html
                          >>
                          >> Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus
                          >>
                          >> On 4/8/2011 11:33 AM, Pamela Bush wrote:
                          >>> The problem I'm having with his reading of Hebrew???? is it???? is that
                          >> he's
                          >>> reading from the wrong direction. He's reading from left to right when
                          >>> Hebrew is read from right to left. He's also got spaces in between the
                          >>> words, which I guess could have been done for our benefit, but ancient
                          >>> Hebrew didn't have brakes between words it ran all together as one. So,
                          >> if
                          >>> he flipped it somehow I'd be interested in learning how and why he did
                          >> that.
                          >>> Namaste!
                          >>> Pamela
                          >>>
                          >>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 9:30 AM, DanT.<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
                          >>>
                          >>>> Charles Vanderpool, who translated the Apostolic Bible, has a number of
                          >>>> videos,
                          >>>> where he reads Greek, from his own text, here:
                          >>>> http://www.apostolicbible.com/videoseminars.htm
                          >>>>
                          >>>> He also has some on YouTube - search on "apostolic bible polyglot":
                          >>>>
                          >> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=apostolic+bible+polyglot&aq=0
                          >>>> Vanderpool is not a native Greek, and his reading is not fluent. He uses
                          >> a
                          >>>> Modern Greek pronunciation.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Dan
                          >>>>
                          >>>> ________________________________
                          >>>> From: DanT.<dantiller2001@...>
                          >>>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          >>>> Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 9:22:06 AM
                          >>>> Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Actually, these recordings are English.
                          >>>> Apparently, I didn't read your whole question, just the first line.
                          >>>> Sorry about that.
                          >>>> Dan
                          >>>>
                          >>>> ________________________________
                          >>>> From: mej1960<mej1960@...>
                          >>>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          >>>> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 10:36:29 PM
                          >>>> Subject: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
                          >>>>
                          >>>> I was intrigued enough to look at the website, but without downloading
                          >> the
                          >>>> file,
                          >>>>
                          >>>> I cannot tell which pronunciation system the computer uses: restored
                          >>>> Classical
                          >>>> or Modern.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> The OP did not explain why he was memorizing it, so it is hard to say
                          >> which
                          >>>> pronunciation he wants. But if he assumes Classical and gets Modern, he
                          >> may
                          >>>> be
                          >>>> quite shocked at the difference.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Finally, memorizing based on the modern pronunciation is a little
                          >> harder,
                          >>>> since
                          >>>> it is impossible to tell based on sound alone whether the computer said
                          >>>> ή,
                          >>>> οί,εί,ι,ηί,υ,υί...
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Many on the list are familiar with this itacization, since few languages
                          >>>> have
                          >>>> taken it to the extreme that Greek has; it cannot be ignored when
                          >> studying
                          >>>> the
                          >>>> history of the text.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "DanT."<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
                          >>>>> The only one I know of is here:
                          >>>>> http://ecmarsh.com/download/index.html
                          >>>>> it's an audio of Brenton's Septuagint,
                          >>>>> unfortunately, it's read by a computer...
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> ________________________________
                          >>>>> From: Peace to You<philipengmann@...>
                          >>>>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          >>>>> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 4:44:38 AM
                          >>>>> Subject: [lxx] Audio Septuagint Online
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Dear LXX Listees,
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> could anyone kindly point me to where I could obtain the audio
                          >> Septuagint
                          >>>>> online?
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> I am a non-greek person trying to memorize some Greek Old Testament
                          >>>> texts, and
                          >>>>
                          >>>>> I
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> urgently need to get the pronunciations correct from the start.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Many thanks,
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Philip Engmann
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>>>
                          >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>>
                          >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>
                          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • andrew fincke
                          In cursive Greek Biblical manuscripts - I m not kidding, Pamela! - the word-breaks, if there are any, often occur within a word! That s due to two facts: 1)
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 9, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In cursive Greek Biblical manuscripts - I'm not kidding, Pamela! - the word-breaks, if there are any, often occur within a word! That's due to two facts: 1) There aren't any word-breaks ex post facto; and 2) The breaks in the continuous writing occur at places where the letter combinations dictate them. That is, there are certain letters that can't join those before or those after them. A manuscript in cursive Greek is like an art-work, sort of like reading a letter from your mother. If you know her hand-writing you can read it. If she's not your mother, you're out of luck. See John 10:4-5.
                            Andrew Fincke

                            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: kraft@...
                            > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 01:07:15 -0400
                            > Subject: Re: [lxx] Reading Ancient Hebrew
                            >
                            > I apologize for introducing this tangent to the original discussion. My
                            > only point was to correct the impression that, in general, ancient
                            > Hebrew did not use spacing between words, in the context of the study of
                            > Jewish scriptures (the focus of this list).
                            >
                            > In fact, Pamela and her sources are correct for some of the ancient
                            > Hebrew (and Aramaic) evidence, such as the Lachish letters (for an
                            > image, see the Wikipedia article at
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachish_letters) and a similar body of
                            > "informal" writings of various sorts. Emanual Tov has discussed the
                            > situation at some length in his "Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible"
                            > (pages 208 and following), available online through Google books --
                            > http://books.google.com/books?id=U1UfMyO-RiEC&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=word+division+hebrew&source=bl&ots=cyCHGnXAvK&sig=cVoH-qQCxadur7znyn8vXyzcp0g&hl=en&ei=NeCfTZLVJ46_gQfcrOnaBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=word%20division%20hebrew&f=false
                            >
                            > Tov points out that even many ancient Semitic inscriptions, which often
                            > use practices that differ from ink written texts, separate words not by
                            > spaces, but by slashes or dots (similar to some ancient Latin
                            > inscriptions). Although as Tov reports, some scholars have conjectured
                            > that the earliest biblical texts used no word division, he is not
                            > convinced since the oldest available formal evidence (especially the
                            > Dead Sea Scrolls) exhibits word division. Less formal biblical materials
                            > such as tefillin/phylacteries may not use such division.
                            >
                            > In short, archaeologists who deal especially with inscriptional
                            > evidence, and theorists who argue from analogy with other language
                            > developments (such as Greek), would be especially tempted to see no word
                            > divisions in early Hebrew, but if one is discussing biblical texts on
                            > the basis of extant evidence, word division in ancient Hebrew scriptural
                            > materials is the norm.
                            >
                            > Obviously, as with most historical matters, there is no simple (or
                            > "absolute") answer. But the earliest formal continuous Hebrew scriptural
                            > texts available to us for examination do use word division. Some other
                            > early Hebrew texts do not. For images of other examples representing
                            > both phenomena, see K. C. Hanson's collection of West Semitic Documents
                            > http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/westsem/westsem.html
                            >
                            > With apologies to Pamela for seeming to be attacking her personally, I
                            > hope we can move back to the original catalyst for this discussion, if
                            > that is still desired.
                            >
                            > Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus
                            >
                            >
                            > On 4/8/2011 3:45 PM, Pamela Bush wrote:
                            > > *Well, it appears we�re in the right, wrong, good, bad, mentality and I see
                            > > this is the preferred approach to communication here. Rather than using a
                            > > more diplomatic form of communication such as, as I understand it, or, it is
                            > > my experience that�.We are now in �correction� mode. If Bob had actually
                            > > read my response he would have noticed I was asking the question as to what
                            > > language was being used in this instance. I didn�t know. But I did input
                            > > what I did know about ancient Hebrew.*
                            > >
                            > > * *
                            > >
                            > > *What I do know is that ancient Hebrew was written from right to left with
                            > > no breaks in between. No commas, spacing, or punctuation. You�ll see a link
                            > > to a site, at the bottom of my post, explaining this and a quote from it
                            > > above that. I also know this because it is what I was taught while in
                            > > Israel. An Israeli Archeologist taught me that. They also taught me Hebrew
                            > > was a dead spoken language (European Jews mostly spoke Yiddish) until 1948
                            > > when it became a nation again and they�re making up the pronunciation as
                            > > they go. Another interesting note is that books sold over there have
                            > > different info about Jesus than the books sold over here, such as the works
                            > > of Josephus. I bought the book in Israel. Jesus is mentioned in the book I
                            > > bought there but not as much as the versions sold in the US.*
                            > >
                            > > * *
                            > >
                            > > *The Dead Sea Scrolls were written in several languages�they were written in
                            > > Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Cuneiform. What I saw there in the museums,
                            > > etc., was mostly Cuneiform. They even sell T-Shirts there with Cuneiform on
                            > > them and say they are from the Dead Sea Scrolls. All, of which, have
                            > > different forms and rules of writing. Some of these other forms of writing
                            > > do have the breaks in between words, but not Ancient�and I'm speaking about
                            > > Ancient not current�.Hebrew.*
                            > >
                            > > * *
                            > >
                            > > *Namaste!*
                            > >
                            > > * *
                            > >
                            > > *Pamela [?]
                            > > *
                            > >
                            > > * *
                            > >
                            > > * *
                            > >
                            > > *
                            > > http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Who-Wrote-the-Dead-Sea-Scrolls.html
                            > > *
                            > >
                            > > *
                            > > <http://www.apu.edu/deadseascrolls/artifactindex/>*
                            > >
                            > > *http://www.apu.edu/deadseascrolls/artifactindex/*
                            > >
                            > > *
                            > > <http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html>*
                            > >
                            > > *http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html*
                            > >
                            > > * *
                            > >
                            > > * *
                            > >
                            > > *Ancient Hebrew*
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > > "It was written from right to left; the words contained no [written] vowels;
                            > > there were no intervening spaces between words, and no punctuation marks.
                            > > Even with the introduction of *vowel points* [dots or marks below the words
                            > > that indicate vowel sounds] many words in Hebrew, as in English, have more
                            > > than one meaning. Without these points, as originally written, the number
                            > > is increased a hundred fold. The five English words, *bag, beg, big, bog, *and
                            > > *buy,* are quite unlike and easily distinguished. Omit the vowels, as the
                            > > ancient Jews did, and we have five words exactly alike, or rather, one word
                            > > with five different meanings. The Hebrew language was thus largely composed
                            > > of words with several mean�ings. As there were no spaces between words, it
                            > > was sometimes hard to tell where a word began or where it ended; and as
                            > > there were no punctuation marks, and no spaces between sentences,
                            > > paragraphs, or even sections, it was often difficult to determine the
                            > > meaning of a writer after the words had been deciphered."
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > http://einhornpress.com/hebrew.aspx
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Robert Kraft<kraft@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >>
                            > >> Although I haven't looked at this material, which I assumed was Greek,
                            > >> not Hebrew, based on the earlier discussion, I did at least want to
                            > >> correct Pamela's statement that ancient Hebrew did not use spacing
                            > >> between words. The Dead Sea Scroll Hebrew does indeed employ word breaks.
                            > >>
                            > >> It is usually claimed that ancient GREEK was written continuously,
                            > >> without breaks, and this is confirmed by most of the preserved evidence,
                            > >> although there are also exceptions. For some details, see my meanderings
                            > >> at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html
                            > >>
                            > >> Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus
                            > >>
                            > >> On 4/8/2011 11:33 AM, Pamela Bush wrote:
                            > >>> The problem I'm having with his reading of Hebrew???? is it???? is that
                            > >> he's
                            > >>> reading from the wrong direction. He's reading from left to right when
                            > >>> Hebrew is read from right to left. He's also got spaces in between the
                            > >>> words, which I guess could have been done for our benefit, but ancient
                            > >>> Hebrew didn't have brakes between words it ran all together as one. So,
                            > >> if
                            > >>> he flipped it somehow I'd be interested in learning how and why he did
                            > >> that.
                            > >>> Namaste!
                            > >>> Pamela
                            > >>>
                            > >>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 9:30 AM, DanT.<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
                            > >>>
                            > >>>> Charles Vanderpool, who translated the Apostolic Bible, has a number of
                            > >>>> videos,
                            > >>>> where he reads Greek, from his own text, here:
                            > >>>> http://www.apostolicbible.com/videoseminars.htm
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> He also has some on YouTube - search on "apostolic bible polyglot":
                            > >>>>
                            > >> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=apostolic+bible+polyglot&aq=0
                            > >>>> Vanderpool is not a native Greek, and his reading is not fluent. He uses
                            > >> a
                            > >>>> Modern Greek pronunciation.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Dan
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> ________________________________
                            > >>>> From: DanT.<dantiller2001@...>
                            > >>>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            > >>>> Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 9:22:06 AM
                            > >>>> Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Actually, these recordings are English.
                            > >>>> Apparently, I didn't read your whole question, just the first line.
                            > >>>> Sorry about that.
                            > >>>> Dan
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> ________________________________
                            > >>>> From: mej1960<mej1960@...>
                            > >>>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            > >>>> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 10:36:29 PM
                            > >>>> Subject: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> I was intrigued enough to look at the website, but without downloading
                            > >> the
                            > >>>> file,
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> I cannot tell which pronunciation system the computer uses: restored
                            > >>>> Classical
                            > >>>> or Modern.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> The OP did not explain why he was memorizing it, so it is hard to say
                            > >> which
                            > >>>> pronunciation he wants. But if he assumes Classical and gets Modern, he
                            > >> may
                            > >>>> be
                            > >>>> quite shocked at the difference.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Finally, memorizing based on the modern pronunciation is a little
                            > >> harder,
                            > >>>> since
                            > >>>> it is impossible to tell based on sound alone whether the computer said
                            > >>>> ή,
                            > >>>> οί,εί,ι,ηί,υ,υί...
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Many on the list are familiar with this itacization, since few languages
                            > >>>> have
                            > >>>> taken it to the extreme that Greek has; it cannot be ignored when
                            > >> studying
                            > >>>> the
                            > >>>> history of the text.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "DanT."<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
                            > >>>>> The only one I know of is here:
                            > >>>>> http://ecmarsh.com/download/index.html
                            > >>>>> it's an audio of Brenton's Septuagint,
                            > >>>>> unfortunately, it's read by a computer...
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> ________________________________
                            > >>>>> From: Peace to You<philipengmann@...>
                            > >>>>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            > >>>>> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 4:44:38 AM
                            > >>>>> Subject: [lxx] Audio Septuagint Online
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Dear LXX Listees,
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> could anyone kindly point me to where I could obtain the audio
                            > >> Septuagint
                            > >>>>> online?
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> I am a non-greek person trying to memorize some Greek Old Testament
                            > >>>> texts, and
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>> I
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> urgently need to get the pronunciations correct from the start.
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Many thanks,
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Philip Engmann
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>> ------------------------------------
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mej1960
                            Thanks for the informative post, Robert But don t we have to go back considerably further than the Dead Sea Scrolls to make the general statement that Ancient
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 9, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks for the informative post, Robert

                              But don't we have to go back considerably further than the Dead Sea Scrolls to make the general statement that "Ancient Hebrew was written with spaces between words"? After all, though I can't find it now, I distinctly recall from Weingreen's intro on OT Textual Criticism that many variants are best explained by assuming the word break was misread, because the 'Vorlage' was 'sciptio continua'. And yes, back when he wrote, they used those German and Latin terms heavily;)

                              So I assume that by the time the Dead Sea Scrolls were written, they did word breaks, but at some point before then, they did not.

                              --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kraft <kraft@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Although I haven't looked at this material, which I assumed was Greek,
                              > not Hebrew, based on the earlier discussion, I did at least want to
                              > correct Pamela's statement that ancient Hebrew did not use spacing
                              > between words. The Dead Sea Scroll Hebrew does indeed employ word breaks.
                              >
                              > It is usually claimed that ancient GREEK was written continuously,
                              > without breaks, and this is confirmed by most of the preserved evidence,
                              > although there are also exceptions. For some details, see my meanderings
                              > at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html
                              >
                              > Bob Kraft, UPenn Emeritus
                              >
                              > On 4/8/2011 11:33 AM, Pamela Bush wrote:
                              > > The problem I'm having with his reading of Hebrew???? is it???? is that he's
                              > > reading from the wrong direction. He's reading from left to right when
                              > > Hebrew is read from right to left. He's also got spaces in between the
                              > > words, which I guess could have been done for our benefit, but ancient
                              > > Hebrew didn't have brakes between words it ran all together as one. So, if
                              > > he flipped it somehow I'd be interested in learning how and why he did that.
                              > >
                              > > Namaste!
                              > > Pamela
                              > >
                              > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 9:30 AM, DanT.<dantiller2001@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >>
                              > >> Charles Vanderpool, who translated the Apostolic Bible, has a number of
                              > >> videos,
                              > >> where he reads Greek, from his own text, here:
                              > >> http://www.apostolicbible.com/videoseminars.htm
                              > >>
                              > >> He also has some on YouTube - search on "apostolic bible polyglot":
                              > >> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=apostolic+bible+polyglot&aq=0
                              > >>
                              > >> Vanderpool is not a native Greek, and his reading is not fluent. He uses a
                              > >> Modern Greek pronunciation.
                              > >>
                              > >> Dan
                              > >>
                              > >> ________________________________
                              > >> From: DanT.<dantiller2001@...>
                              > >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > >> Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 9:22:06 AM
                              > >> Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
                              > >>
                              > >> Actually, these recordings are English.
                              > >> Apparently, I didn't read your whole question, just the first line.
                              > >> Sorry about that.
                              > >> Dan
                              > >>
                              > >> ________________________________
                              > >> From: mej1960<mej1960@...>
                              > >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > >> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 10:36:29 PM
                              > >> Subject: [lxx] Re: Audio Septuagint Online
                              > >>
                              > >> I was intrigued enough to look at the website, but without downloading the
                              > >> file,
                              > >>
                              > >> I cannot tell which pronunciation system the computer uses: restored
                              > >> Classical
                              > >> or Modern.
                              > >>
                              > >> The OP did not explain why he was memorizing it, so it is hard to say which
                              > >>
                              > >> pronunciation he wants. But if he assumes Classical and gets Modern, he may
                              > >> be
                              > >> quite shocked at the difference.
                              > >>
                              > >> Finally, memorizing based on the modern pronunciation is a little harder,
                              > >> since
                              > >> it is impossible to tell based on sound alone whether the computer said
                              > >> ή,
                              > >> οί,εί,ι,ηί,υ,υί...
                              > >>
                              > >> Many on the list are familiar with this itacization, since few languages
                              > >> have
                              > >> taken it to the extreme that Greek has; it cannot be ignored when studying
                              > >> the
                              > >> history of the text.
                              > >>
                              > >> --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "DanT."<dantiller2001@> wrote:
                              > >>> The only one I know of is here:
                              > >>> http://ecmarsh.com/download/index.html
                              > >>> it's an audio of Brenton's Septuagint,
                              > >>> unfortunately, it's read by a computer...
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>> ________________________________
                              > >>> From: Peace to You<philipengmann@>
                              > >>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > >>> Sent: Thu, April 7, 2011 4:44:38 AM
                              > >>> Subject: [lxx] Audio Septuagint Online
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Dear LXX Listees,
                              > >>>
                              > >>> could anyone kindly point me to where I could obtain the audio Septuagint
                              > >>> online?
                              > >>>
                              > >>> I am a non-greek person trying to memorize some Greek Old Testament
                              > >> texts, and
                              > >>
                              > >>> I
                              > >>>
                              > >>> urgently need to get the pronunciations correct from the start.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Many thanks,
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Philip Engmann
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >>>
                              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >>
                              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
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