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Re: Amen

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  • TOUJOURSPREST
    David, The use of amen in the Psalms seemed to be in a different way than concluding a prayer, as when it occurs with an expression of praise to the Lord (10
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 12, 2010
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      David,
      The use of amen in the Psalms seemed to be in a different way than concluding a prayer, as when it occurs with an expression of praise to the Lord (10 times). "Amen" is used after a baruch (praise) formula by the person speaking the formula (Ps 41:14; 72:19; 89:53) as well as all those who hear it (Ps 106:48; 1 Chron. 16:36; Neh 8:6). This type of praise-formula has a standard structure and always begins with the word Baruch: translated as "Blessed/Praised be....."

      Price

      --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, David James <Jamesdm49@...> wrote:
      >
      > Price:
      >
      > You don't make any reference to the Psalms, and I don't know Hebrew.
      > However, if, as you assert, "Amen" is never used in the OT to conclude a
      > prayer, what is the Hebrew word used in the concluding verses of Psalms 40,
      > 71, 88 and 105 (LXX numbering)?
      >
      > David James
      >
      >
      > On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:59 PM, TOUJOURSPREST <toujoursprest@...>wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > I would appreciate help on the source of the word amen.
      > > The Hebrew word amen derives from the Hebrew 'a-mán, the primitive
      > > triliteral root is '-m-n . This triliteral root means to be firm, confirmed,
      > > reliable, faithful, have faith, believe. Grammarians list "amen" in Hebrew
      > > under its three consonants ('-m-n = aleph-mem-nun) The Hebrew letter ' aleph
      > > originally represented a glottal stop sound, which functioned as a
      > > consonant.
      > >
      > > I find two ways it is apparently not used in the Old Testament. First,
      > > "amen" is never used to conclude a prayer ...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • TOUJOURSPREST
      Andrew, Could there be a different Semitic root for amen (aleph-meem-nun) when it is used to mean the Amen , for Jehovah and Christ? In Is. 65:16 the
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 12, 2010
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        Andrew,
        Could there be a different Semitic root for "amen" (aleph-meem-nun) when it is used to mean "the Amen" , for Jehovah and Christ?
        In Is. 65:16 the Hebrew text twice speaks of "the God of (the) Amen." Some thought this difficult to translate and chose to correct the text to "the God of truth." The proposed emendation only concerns the vowels which (in Hebrew) do not belong to the original text. Instead of "ameen"the reading "omen" is suggested. In Isa. 25:1 the word omen ("truth") is used, but it is a hapax (i.e., a word that only occurs once). In the Septuagint and Aquila both read ameen instead of omen at Isa. 25:1. The texts from Isaiah seem to be echoed in Rev.3:14 where "the Amen" is used as a title for Jesus. Perhaps you are pointing to something like this?

        Price



        --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, andrew fincke <finckea@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Good point, David!
        > And what does the Septuagint (this is a Septuagint list) say at those 4 places?
        > γένοιτο γένοιτο "So be it! So be it!" I.e. יִהְיֶה יִהְיֶה. Now that's just a polite way of saying "Jehovah, Jehovah" (יהוה יהוה) without descecrating the Lord's name. What's happened is that the Septuagint translator mistook "Amen" (אמן) for "So be it!/ therefore" (אכן) by merging the vertical that forms final nun with the open space on the left side of the kaf. Cf. the kaf and mem in אכן משפטי in the facsimile of 1QIsa-a at Isa. 30:4. אכן is a rare word that occurs only in Isaiah, and there only four times, one of which is 53:4, where it serves as epithet for Our Savior at Isa 53:4: "He lifted up our sins". There the Septuagint has "He" (οá½â€"τος) for אכן הוא "Therefore He". So at Psalms 106(105):48, when "All the people said, 'Amen! Amen!" (Hebrew: "Amen! Praise the Lord!") they were just reciting the divine epithet. For the matter of the repetive אמן אמן in the Psalms verses cf. Isa 40:7-8, where אכן caused a whole verse to be duplicated. In IQIsa-a all the extra material is between the lines and into the margin with אכן ×â€"ציר העם "Therefore the people is grass" spelled הכן ×â€"ציר העם, confusing אכן with הכן and thus הקן "the nest", which is composed of intertwined grass. I know this is alot of Hebrew for someone unversed in the language, so if you've got some questions feel free to ask.
        > Andrew Fincke
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        > From: kpenner@...
        > Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:10:09 -0400
        > Subject: RE: [lxx] Amen
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > In all the cases mentioned below, the Hebrew word is AMEN.
        >
        > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
        > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
        > St. Francis Xavier University
        > Antigonish, NS
        > Canada
        >
        > (902)867-2265
        > kpenner@...
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David James
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:47 PM
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [lxx] Amen
        >
        > Price:
        >
        > You don't make any reference to the Psalms, and I don't know Hebrew.
        > However, if, as you assert, "Amen" is never used in the OT to conclude a
        > prayer, what is the Hebrew word used in the concluding verses of Psalms 40,
        > 71, 88 and 105 (LXX numbering)?
        >
        > David James
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • andrew fincke
        Good point, Price! From the way the Chronicler put together the Psalms, having Psalms 96(95): 12: The field rejoices and everything in it; all the trees of
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 13, 2010
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          Good point, Price!
          From the way the Chronicler put together the Psalms, having Psalms 96(95): 12: "The field rejoices and everything in it; all the trees of the forest sing out" precede 106(105):48: "'Bless the Lord forever and ever!' And all the people said, 'Amen! Praise the Lord!'" it would seem that "Amen" concludes a song - namely that of the trees of the forest - and not a prayer. The people responded to the final sentence of the sylvan song: "Bless the Lord!" with "Amen!" Deut 27:15 suggests that the trees cried out - and not in the way of blessing - as they were being cut down: "'Cursed is the man who will make an idol!' ... And all the people said, 'Amen!'" To understand how trees were cultivated for the manufacture of idols, see Isaiah 44:13-15. You've got to know Hebrew to understand the dual meaning of אמונתו "His faithfulness/his handiwork" in 96(95):13. If you read the final two words - ועמים באמונתו "and peoples in His faithfulness" as ועצים באמונתו "and treees in his craftmanship" you can see how the judgment mentioned there is not a blessing but a curse. The trees were destined to be cursed for their role in the manufacture of idols. The fig tree of Mat 21:19-20 took the curse on himself.
          Andrew Fincke



          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          From: toujoursprest@...
          Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 03:02:57 +0000
          Subject: [lxx] Re: Amen






          David,
          The use of amen in the Psalms seemed to be in a different way than concluding a prayer, as when it occurs with an expression of praise to the Lord (10 times). "Amen" is used after a baruch (praise) formula by the person speaking the formula (Ps 41:14; 72:19; 89:53) as well as all those who hear it (Ps 106:48; 1 Chron. 16:36; Neh 8:6). This type of praise-formula has a standard structure and always begins with the word Baruch: translated as "Blessed/Praised be....."

          Price

          --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, David James <Jamesdm49@...> wrote:
          >
          > Price:
          >
          > You don't make any reference to the Psalms, and I don't know Hebrew.
          > However, if, as you assert, "Amen" is never used in the OT to conclude a
          > prayer, what is the Hebrew word used in the concluding verses of Psalms 40,
          > 71, 88 and 105 (LXX numbering)?
          >
          > David James
          >
          >
          > On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:59 PM, TOUJOURSPREST <toujoursprest@...>wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > I would appreciate help on the source of the word amen.
          > > The Hebrew word amen derives from the Hebrew 'a-mán, the primitive
          > > triliteral root is '-m-n . This triliteral root means to be firm, confirmed,
          > > reliable, faithful, have faith, believe. Grammarians list "amen" in Hebrew
          > > under its three consonants ('-m-n = aleph-mem-nun) The Hebrew letter ' aleph
          > > originally represented a glottal stop sound, which functioned as a
          > > consonant.
          > >
          > > I find two ways it is apparently not used in the Old Testament. First,
          > > "amen" is never used to conclude a prayer ...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • andrew fincke
          Dear Price, You re really getting into this! In Isa. 25:1 the word omen ( truth ) is used, but it is a hapax (i.e., a word that only occurs once). is
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 13, 2010
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            Dear Price,
            You're really getting into this!
            "In Isa. 25:1 the word omen ("truth") is used, but it is a hapax (i.e., a word that only occurs once)." is incorrect. We also have "work of the hands of an omen (craftsman)" at Song of Solomon 7:2, describing the calves of the writer's girlfriend. Since things work in 3's in the Bible, that makes the two omen's in Isa 65:16 mean "craftsman": "He blesses himself in (the name of) a God of a craftsman ... He oathes in (the name of ) a God of a craftsman." That fits with the beginning of the verse: "Whoever blesses himself in (the trees of the) land." The image is of a pagan farmer taking great pains to cultivate a grove of trees, which are then cut down and turned into idols. See Isa 44:13-15. The (tall) girlfriend in Song of Solomon 7:2 must have had legs that reminded the author of trees. At Isaiah 25:1 these legs/trees were feminized from עצים "trees" to עצות, which the Septuagint translates "advice" (βουλη). The Isaiah scroll (1QIsa-a) has אצית "I ignite", which verifies 44:15: "They (the trees) are for burning; he warms himself and stokes the fire; he bakes bread and makes an idol". The speaker at the end of 25:1: אצית מרחוק אמונה אמן "I ignite from a distance the handiwork of a craftsman" is apparently the Lord, destroying the products of abuse of His creation.
            For a guy who doesn't know Hebrew, you're pretty smart!
            Andrew Fincke


            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            From: toujoursprest@...
            Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 04:04:18 +0000
            Subject: [lxx] Re: Amen






            Andrew,
            Could there be a different Semitic root for "amen" (aleph-meem-nun) when it is used to mean "the Amen" , for Jehovah and Christ?
            In Is. 65:16 the Hebrew text twice speaks of "the God of (the) Amen." Some thought this difficult to translate and chose to correct the text to "the God of truth." The proposed emendation only concerns the vowels which (in Hebrew) do not belong to the original text. Instead of "ameen"the reading "omen" is suggested. In Isa. 25:1 the word omen ("truth") is used, but it is a hapax (i.e., a word that only occurs once). In the Septuagint and Aquila both read ameen instead of omen at Isa. 25:1. The texts from Isaiah seem to be echoed in Rev.3:14 where "the Amen" is used as a title for Jesus. Perhaps you are pointing to something like this?

            Price

            --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, andrew fincke <finckea@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Good point, David!
            > And what does the Septuagint (this is a Septuagint list) say at those 4 places?
            > γένοιτο γένοιτο "So be it! So be it!" I.e. יִהְיֶה יִהְיֶה. Now that's just a polite way of saying "Jehovah, Jehovah" (יהוה יהוה) without descecrating the Lord's name. What's happened is that the Septuagint translator mistook "Amen" (אמן) for "So be it!/ therefore" (אכן) by merging the vertical that forms final nun with the open space on the left side of the kaf. Cf. the kaf and mem in אכן משפטי in the facsimile of 1QIsa-a at Isa. 30:4. אכן is a rare word that occurs only in Isaiah, and there only four times, one of which is 53:4, where it serves as epithet for Our Savior at Isa 53:4: "He lifted up our sins". There the Septuagint has "He" (οá½â€"τος) for אכן הוא "Therefore He". So at Psalms 106(105):48, when "All the people said, 'Amen! Amen!" (Hebrew: "Amen! Praise the Lord!") they were just reciting the divine epithet. For the matter of the repetive אמן אמן in the Psalms verses cf. Isa 40:7-8, where אכן caused a whole verse to be duplicated. In IQIsa-a all the extra material is between the lines and into the margin with אכן ×â€"ציר העם "Therefore the people is grass" spelled הכן ×â€"ציר העם, confusing אכן with הכן and thus הקן "the nest", which is composed of intertwined grass. I know this is alot of Hebrew for someone unversed in the language, so if you've got some questions feel free to ask.
            > Andrew Fincke
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > From: kpenner@...
            > Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:10:09 -0400
            > Subject: RE: [lxx] Amen
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > In all the cases mentioned below, the Hebrew word is AMEN.
            >
            > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
            > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
            > St. Francis Xavier University
            > Antigonish, NS
            > Canada
            >
            > (902)867-2265
            > kpenner@...
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David James
            > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:47 PM
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [lxx] Amen
            >
            > Price:
            >
            > You don't make any reference to the Psalms, and I don't know Hebrew.
            > However, if, as you assert, "Amen" is never used in the OT to conclude a
            > prayer, what is the Hebrew word used in the concluding verses of Psalms 40,
            > 71, 88 and 105 (LXX numbering)?
            >
            > David James
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • TOUJOURSPREST
            Andrew, Many thanks for your learned explication. My area of research is Iranian texts, although a main mentor was S D Goitein, a founder of the Hebrew
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 25, 2010
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              Andrew,
              Many thanks for your learned explication. My area of research is Iranian texts, although a main mentor was S D Goitein, a founder of the Hebrew University in 1925.

              I think true monotheism appears in Judaism after Persian captivity.
              Isaiah reveals the influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism. The monotheism expressed in the New Testament is in turn imbued with the spirit of monotheism in Isaiah, including in Revelation. In Revelation 3 where "the Amen" is used as an epithet for Jesus this is so. Jesus Christ celebrates His faithfulness, in Revelation 3:12-14 (King James Version):

              "12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
              13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
              14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God"

              John is contrasting the heavenly church to the earthly : when one enters the church, the spiritual temple below, three names are recorded in his baptismal formula. When he enters the kingdom above, three names are again written upon him; the name of God, of the heavenly city, and Christ's heavenly name. To be "a pillar of the church" on earth is to have one's name recorded on the wall.

              The new name which Christ will acquire is expressed in other ways by John , as the name of "Jehovah," our righteousness; or the name of "King of kings, and Lord of lords," (Revelation 19:16)
              The "new name" is expressed in a more symbolic way in Revelation 2:17: "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it" The new name is not a new name for the person, but the new name of the giver. The white stone which contains it indicates affirmation, perhaps "the amen" - a black pebble perhaps would be a "no" vote.

              Stephen Van Eck is known for bashing the authenticity of orthodox Christian Bible texts. I agree with his view of the significant influence of Zoroastrian ideas.

              Best holiday wishes,
              Price


              --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, andrew fincke <finckea@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Dear Price,
              > You're really getting into this!
              > "In Isa. 25:1 the word omen ("truth") is used, but it is a hapax (i.e., a word that only occurs once)." is incorrect. We also have "work of the hands of an omen (craftsman)" at Song of Solomon 7:2, describing the calves of the writer's girlfriend. Since things work in 3's in the Bible, that makes the two omen's in Isa 65:16 mean "craftsman": "He blesses himself in (the name of) a God of a craftsman ... He oathes in (the name of ) a God of a craftsman." That fits with the beginning of the verse: "Whoever blesses himself in (the trees of the) land." The image is of a pagan farmer taking great pains to cultivate a grove of trees, which are then cut down and turned into idols. See Isa 44:13-15. The (tall) girlfriend in Song of Solomon 7:2 must have had legs that reminded the author of trees. At Isaiah 25:1 these legs/trees were feminized from עצים "trees" to עצות, which the Septuagint translates "advice" (βουλη). The Isaiah scroll (1QIsa-a) has אצית "I ignite", which verifies 44:15: "They (the trees) are for burning; he warms himself and stokes the fire; he bakes bread and makes an idol". The speaker at the end of 25:1: אצית מרחוק אמונ×" אמן "I ignite from a distance the handiwork of a craftsman" is apparently the Lord, destroying the products of abuse of His creation.
              > For a guy who doesn't know Hebrew, you're pretty smart!
              > Andrew Fincke
              >
              >
              > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > From: toujoursprest@...
              > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 04:04:18 +0000
              > Subject: [lxx] Re: Amen
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Andrew,
              > Could there be a different Semitic root for "amen" (aleph-meem-nun) when it is used to mean "the Amen" , for Jehovah and Christ?
              > In Is. 65:16 the Hebrew text twice speaks of "the God of (the) Amen." Some thought this difficult to translate and chose to correct the text to "the God of truth." The proposed emendation only concerns the vowels which (in Hebrew) do not belong to the original text. Instead of "ameen"the reading "omen" is suggested. In Isa. 25:1 the word omen ("truth") is used, but it is a hapax (i.e., a word that only occurs once). In the Septuagint and Aquila both read ameen instead of omen at Isa. 25:1. The texts from Isaiah seem to be echoed in Rev.3:14 where "the Amen" is used as a title for Jesus. Perhaps you are pointing to something like this?
              >
              > Price
              >
              > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, andrew fincke <finckea@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Good point, David!
              > > And what does the Septuagint (this is a Septuagint list) say at those 4 places?
              > > γένοιτο γένοιτο "So be it! So be it!" I.e. Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"´Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"°Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"¶Ãâ€"” Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"´Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"°Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"¶Ãâ€"”. Now that's just a polite way of saying "Jehovah, Jehovah" (Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"•Ãâ€"” Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"•Ãâ€"”) without descecrating the Lord's name. What's happened is that the Septuagint translator mistook "Amen" (Ãâ€"Ãâ€"žÃâ€"Ÿ) for "So be it!/ therefore" (Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ) by merging the vertical that forms final nun with the open space on the left side of the kaf. Cf. the kaf and mem in Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"žÃâ€"©Ãâ€"¤Ãâ€"ËÅ"Ãâ€"â„¢ in the facsimile of 1QIsa-a at Isa. 30:4. Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ is a rare word that occurs only in Isaiah, and there only four times, one of which is 53:4, where it serves as epithet for Our Savior at Isa 53:4: "He lifted up our sins". There the Septuagint has "He" (οá½â€"τος) for Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"•Ãâ€" "Therefore He". So at Psalms 106(105):48, when "All the people said, 'Amen! Amen!" (Hebrew: "Amen! Praise the Lord!") they were just reciting the divine epithet. For the matter of the repetive Ãâ€"Ãâ€"žÃâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"Ãâ€"žÃâ€"Ÿ in the Psalms verses cf. Isa 40:7-8, where Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ caused a whole verse to be duplicated. In IQIsa-a all the extra material is between the lines and into the margin with Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"â€"Ãâ€"¦Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"¨ Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"¢Ãâ€" "Therefore the people is grass" spelled Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"â€"Ãâ€"¦Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"¨ Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"¢Ãâ€", confusing Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ with Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ and thus Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"§Ãâ€"Ÿ "the nest", which is composed of intertwined grass. I know this is alot of Hebrew for someone unversed in the language, so if you've got some questions feel free to ask.
              > > Andrew Fincke
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: kpenner@
              > > Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:10:09 -0400
              > > Subject: RE: [lxx] Amen
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > In all the cases mentioned below, the Hebrew word is AMEN.
              > >
              > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
              > > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
              > > St. Francis Xavier University
              > > Antigonish, NS
              > > Canada
              > >
              > > (902)867-2265
              > > kpenner@
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David James
              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:47 PM
              > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [lxx] Amen
              > >
              > > Price:
              > >
              > > You don't make any reference to the Psalms, and I don't know Hebrew.
              > > However, if, as you assert, "Amen" is never used in the OT to conclude a
              > > prayer, what is the Hebrew word used in the concluding verses of Psalms 40,
              > > 71, 88 and 105 (LXX numbering)?
              > >
              > > David James
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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