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Concordance help

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  • Larry J.
    I m without Bibleworks and Logos and such tools, so I m hoping someone has some ideas besides a hunt and peck search in an online LXX. I have two related
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 25, 2010
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      I'm without Bibleworks and Logos and such tools, so I'm hoping someone has some ideas besides a hunt and peck search in an online LXX.

      I have two related problems:

      1) some of you have seen this request on other lists, but thought I'd ask here too. I'm looking at the transmission history of Ps. 67:19 in Vulgate numbering and I'm looking at the reading dedit dona hominbus in Latin rather than accepisti dona hominibus. Most scholarship seems to want to look at how Eph 4:8 relates to the Psalm verse and address whether the author made a deliberate change or whether he was influenced by the Targum reading, or whether there was another textual tradition out there related to the Targum and so on. My focus is on tracing if possible the manuscript tradition of the "dedit" reading in Latin. So I'm wondering how many and how many early OG manuscripts/papyri have the alternative reading?

      I've already compiled a number of well known Latin patristic writers who have the alternate reading, as well as VL mss, so I'm looking at Greek ones now. I'm looking at an Old English poem where I argue the alternate reading is influencing the poet and would like to give as thorough and complete an explanation of the origin of the reading as I can.


      2) I'm looking into the number of times the LXX/OG has some form "Philistine" or "Philistia"; neither my L&S nor BAGD (yes, I'm one behind still) contains the word as far as I can tell, but I'm told that it does occur; I'd like to find out how often and where.

      Larry Swain
    • Sigrid Peterson
      Regarding your 2), do you mean allophyles -- as the NETS translation has it? See BAGD second edition p. 41, or Reigns 1.17. Or are you looking for a Greek
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 25, 2010
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        Regarding your 2), do you mean "allophyles" -- as the NETS translation has
        it? See BAGD second edition p. 41, or Reigns 1.17. Or are you looking for a
        Greek word that appears to transliterate Philistines?

        Best,
        Sigrid Peterson



        Sigrid Peterson, PhD
        Visiting Research Scholar
        Department of Religious Studies
        201 Claudia Cohen Hall
        University of Pennsylvania
        Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA

        petersig {at} sas.upenn.edu
        001-215-275-2740 (Cell)



        On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Larry J. <theswain@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > I'm without Bibleworks and Logos and such tools, so I'm hoping someone has
        > some ideas besides a hunt and peck search in an online LXX.
        >
        > I have two related problems:
        >
        > 1) some of you have seen this request on other lists, but thought I'd ask
        > here too. I'm looking at the transmission history of Ps. 67:19 in Vulgate
        > numbering and I'm looking at the reading dedit dona hominbus in Latin rather
        > than accepisti dona hominibus. Most scholarship seems to want to look at how
        > Eph 4:8 relates to the Psalm verse and address whether the author made a
        > deliberate change or whether he was influenced by the Targum reading, or
        > whether there was another textual tradition out there related to the Targum
        > and so on. My focus is on tracing if possible the manuscript tradition of
        > the "dedit" reading in Latin. So I'm wondering how many and how many early
        > OG manuscripts/papyri have the alternative reading?
        >
        > I've already compiled a number of well known Latin patristic writers who
        > have the alternate reading, as well as VL mss, so I'm looking at Greek ones
        > now. I'm looking at an Old English poem where I argue the alternate reading
        > is influencing the poet and would like to give as thorough and complete an
        > explanation of the origin of the reading as I can.
        >
        > 2) I'm looking into the number of times the LXX/OG has some form
        > "Philistine" or "Philistia"; neither my L&S nor BAGD (yes, I'm one behind
        > still) contains the word as far as I can tell, but I'm told that it does
        > occur; I'd like to find out how often and where.
        >
        > Larry Swain
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Peter Papoutsis
        Philistine occurs in the LXX, but as ἀλλοφύλους meaning another people or tribe. It frequently occurs in the books of Kingdoms and in the Minor
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 25, 2010
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          "Philistine" occurs in the LXX, but as ἀλλοφύλους meaning another people or tribe. It frequently occurs in the books of Kingdoms and in the Minor Prophets and then sporadically throughout the rest of the Old Testament.
           
          However, it should be noted, if I remember correctly, that the actual transliterated term occurs in the Pentateuch, but I cannot remember for sure and I will others to verify this point.
           
          The LXX Ps. 67:19 reads: ἔλαβες δόματα ἐν ἀνθρώποις - You received/took gifts/offerings in/among men/people.
           
          The NETS Bible Translators state: "A quotation which is perhaps ultimately derived from Ps 68:18. However, the wording here differs from that of Ps 68 in both the Hebrew text and the LXX in a few places, the most significant of which is reading “gave gifts to” in place of “received gifts from” as in HT and LXX. It has sometimes been suggested that the author of Ephesians modified the text he was citing in order to better support what he wanted to say here. Such modifications are sometimes found in rabbinic exegesis from this and later periods, but it is also possible that the author was simply citing a variant of Ps 68 known to him but which has not survived outside its quotation here (W. H. Harris, The Descent of Christ [AGJU 32], 104). Another possibility is that the words here, which strongly resemble Ps 68:19 HT and LXX (68:18 ET), are actually part of an early Christian hymn quoted by the author."

          I find nothing in other Greek Manuscripts that support a different reading than: ἔλαβες δόματα ἐν ἀνθρώποις
           
          Peter A. Papoutsis




          ________________________________
          From: Larry J. <theswain@...>
          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, June 25, 2010 11:32:32 AM
          Subject: [lxx] Concordance help

           
          I'm without Bibleworks and Logos and such tools, so I'm hoping someone has some ideas besides a hunt and peck search in an online LXX.

          I have two related problems:

          1) some of you have seen this request on other lists, but thought I'd ask here too. I'm looking at the transmission history of Ps. 67:19 in Vulgate numbering and I'm looking at the reading dedit dona hominbus in Latin rather than accepisti dona hominibus. Most scholarship seems to want to look at how Eph 4:8 relates to the Psalm verse and address whether the author made a deliberate change or whether he was influenced by the Targum reading, or whether there was another textual tradition out there related to the Targum and so on. My focus is on tracing if possible the manuscript tradition of the "dedit" reading in Latin. So I'm wondering how many and how many early OG manuscripts/papyri have the alternative reading?

          I've already compiled a number of well known Latin patristic writers who have the alternate reading, as well as VL mss, so I'm looking at Greek ones now. I'm looking at an Old English poem where I argue the alternate reading is influencing the poet and would like to give as thorough and complete an explanation of the origin of the reading as I can.

          2) I'm looking into the number of times the LXX/OG has some form "Philistine" or "Philistia"; neither my L&S nor BAGD (yes, I'm one behind still) contains the word as far as I can tell, but I'm told that it does occur; I'd like to find out how often and where.

          Larry Swain







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • andrew fincke
          Dear Larry, öõëéóôééì (fulistiim) at Genesis 10:14, 21:32.34, 26:1.14.15.18 Exod. 13:17, 15:14, 23:31 Jos 13:2.5, 10:6.7.11, 13:1.5, 14:2 1 Macc 3:24
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 25, 2010
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            Dear Larry,

            ��������� (fulistiim) at Genesis 10:14, 21:32.34, 26:1.14.15.18

            Exod. 13:17, 15:14, 23:31

            Jos 13:2.5, 10:6.7.11, 13:1.5, 14:2

            1 Macc 3:24 Odes 1:14 Sir 46:18, 47:7, 50:26

            Codex Vaticanus doesn't have 1 Sam 17:23, but Codex Alexandrinus tells us: "And while David was talking to them, Look! The massive man appeared - 'Goliath the Philistine (���������� filistaios)' his name." The Lucianic manuscripts have ���������� (fulistaios) for ����������.

            Andrew Fincke



            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            From: theswain@...
            Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 16:32:32 +0000
            Subject: [lxx] Concordance help





            I'm without Bibleworks and Logos and such tools, so I'm hoping someone has some ideas besides a hunt and peck search in an online LXX.

            I have two related problems:

            1) some of you have seen this request on other lists, but thought I'd ask here too. I'm looking at the transmission history of Ps. 67:19 in Vulgate numbering and I'm looking at the reading dedit dona hominbus in Latin rather than accepisti dona hominibus. Most scholarship seems to want to look at how Eph 4:8 relates to the Psalm verse and address whether the author made a deliberate change or whether he was influenced by the Targum reading, or whether there was another textual tradition out there related to the Targum and so on. My focus is on tracing if possible the manuscript tradition of the "dedit" reading in Latin. So I'm wondering how many and how many early OG manuscripts/papyri have the alternative reading?

            I've already compiled a number of well known Latin patristic writers who have the alternate reading, as well as VL mss, so I'm looking at Greek ones now. I'm looking at an Old English poem where I argue the alternate reading is influencing the poet and would like to give as thorough and complete an explanation of the origin of the reading as I can.

            2) I'm looking into the number of times the LXX/OG has some form "Philistine" or "Philistia"; neither my L&S nor BAGD (yes, I'm one behind still) contains the word as far as I can tell, but I'm told that it does occur; I'd like to find out how often and where.

            Larry Swain





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          • Ken Penner
            The LXX/OG has FULISTI(E)IM for Philistines until the middle of Judges, and after that ALLOFULLOI. It appears about 20 times in the Greek Bible, and once in
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 25, 2010
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              The LXX/OG has FULISTI(E)IM for Philistines until the middle of Judges, and after that ALLOFULLOI. It appears about 20 times in the Greek Bible, and once in Josephus.

              For the spelling FILISTAIOS, see 1 Kingdoms 17.23 in Alexandrinus. FILISTIM also appears to be in Ode 1.14 in the Psalterium Graeco-Latinum Veronense, according to Swete.

              Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
              Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
              St. Francis Xavier University
              Antigonish, NS Canada
              kpenner@...

              From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry J.
              Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 1:33 PM
              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [lxx] Concordance help

               
              I'm without Bibleworks and Logos and such tools, so I'm hoping someone has some ideas besides a hunt and peck search in an online LXX.

              I have two related problems:

              1) some of you have seen this request on other lists, but thought I'd ask here too. I'm looking at the transmission history of Ps. 67:19 in Vulgate numbering and I'm looking at the reading dedit dona hominbus in Latin rather than accepisti dona hominibus. Most scholarship seems to want to look at how Eph 4:8 relates to the Psalm verse and address whether the author made a deliberate change or whether he was influenced by the Targum reading, or whether there was another textual tradition out there related to the Targum and so on. My focus is on tracing if possible the manuscript tradition of the "dedit" reading in Latin. So I'm wondering how many and how many early OG manuscripts/papyri have the alternative reading?

              I've already compiled a number of well known Latin patristic writers who have the alternate reading, as well as VL mss, so I'm looking at Greek ones now. I'm looking at an Old English poem where I argue the alternate reading is influencing the poet and would like to give as thorough and complete an explanation of the origin of the reading as I can.

              2) I'm looking into the number of times the LXX/OG has some form "Philistine" or "Philistia"; neither my L&S nor BAGD (yes, I'm one behind still) contains the word as far as I can tell, but I'm told that it does occur; I'd like to find out how often and where.

              Larry Swain
            • Larry J.
              ... Apologies for not clarifying. I mean the latter: a transliteration into Greek in the LXX/OG of the name Philistine or Philistia .
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 25, 2010
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                --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Sigrid Peterson <petersig@...> wrote:
                >
                > Regarding your 2), do you mean "allophyles" -- as the NETS translation has
                > it? See BAGD second edition p. 41, or Reigns 1.17. Or are you looking for a
                > Greek word that appears to transliterate Philistines?
                >

                Apologies for not clarifying. I mean the latter: a transliteration into Greek in the LXX/OG of the name "Philistine" or "Philistia".
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