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Re: [lxx] Re: Gen 25:27 aplastos

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  • Sigrid Peterson
    Note that the Greek APLOJ -- i.e. aplos -- means simple; simply as does the Hebrew TAM, the first according to BAG-D. Sigrid Peterson, PhD Coordinator
    Message 1 of 18 , May 30 8:39 PM
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      Note that the Greek APLOJ -- i.e. "aplos" -- means "simple; simply" as does
      the Hebrew TAM, the first according to BAG-D.

      Sigrid Peterson, PhD
      Coordinator
      CCAT/CATSS Variants Project
      Department of Religious Studies
      201 Logan Hall
      University of Pennsylvania
      Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA

      petersig {at} ccat.sas.upenn.edu
      001-215-898-7453 (Department)
      001-215-275-2740 (Cell)



      On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 10:57 PM, patandjimellis <jim@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>, jim@... wrote:
      > >
      > > Attached are 3 jpeg files.
      > > The first shows a portion of the Thompson LXX where it says Jacob was "a
      > man of plain manners."
      > >
      > > The second is from the Apostolic Polyglot where Jacob is called "a simple
      > man."
      > >
      > > The third is from page 34 of the Lexical Concordance of the Apostolic
      > Bible and gives a definition of "aplastos" which is only used this one place
      > (Genesis 25:27) in the LXX
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- On Sat, 5/30/09, James <jamesjay@...> wrote:
      > >
      >
      > Sorry, I guess we cannot use attachments in this forum.
      >
      > In the Lexical Concordance of the Apostolic Bible Polyglot the word
      > "aplastos" is defined as "unfeigned, simple, sincere" and it shows that
      > Genesis 25:27 is the only place it is used in the Greek Bible. It assigns it
      > Strongs number 571.1
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James
      Hello; ... . Guess not as I did not receive any. . ... . Humm. I m not familiar with a Strong s # containing a decimal and there is no 5711 so I looked up 571
      Message 2 of 18 , May 30 8:40 PM
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        Hello;

        patandjimellis wrote:
        >
        >
        > --- In lxx@yahoogroups. com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>, jim@... wrote:
        > >
        > > Attached are 3 jpeg files.
        > > The first shows a portion of the Thompson LXX where it says Jacob
        > was "a man of plain manners."
        > >
        > > The second is from the Apostolic Polyglot where Jacob is called "a
        > simple man."
        > >
        > > The third is from page 34 of the Lexical Concordance of the
        > Apostolic Bible and gives a definition of "aplastos" which is only
        > used this one place (Genesis 25:27) in the LXX
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- On Sat, 5/30/09, James <jamesjay@.. .> wrote:
        > >
        >
        > Sorry, I guess we cannot use attachments in this forum.
        >
        .
        Guess not as I did not receive any.
        .
        >
        >
        > In the Lexical Concordance of the Apostolic Bible Polyglot the word
        > "aplastos" is defined as "unfeigned, simple, sincere" and it shows
        > that Genesis 25:27 is the only place it is used in the Greek Bible. It
        > assigns it Strongs number 571.1
        >
        .
        Humm. I'm not familiar with a Strong's # containing a decimal and there
        is no 5711 so I looked up 571 and that's "apistos" meaning to
        'disbelieve' or be 'without faith'. I don't think Jacob was a
        disbelieving man without faith though.

        James Kirby
        >
        >
        >
      • James
        ... . Thanks but didn t get them! JK
        Message 3 of 18 , May 30 8:41 PM
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          jim@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > Attached are 3 jpeg files.
          >
          .
          Thanks but didn't get them!
          JK
          >
          > The first shows a portion of the Thompson LXX where it says Jacob was
          > "a man of plain manners."
          >
          > The second is from the Apostolic Polyglot where Jacob is called "a
          > simple man."
          >
          > The third is from page 34 of the Lexical Concordance of the Apostolic
          > Bible and gives a definition of "aplastos" which is only used this one
          > place (Genesis 25:27) in the LXX
          >
          > --- On Sat, 5/30/09, James <jamesjay@paonline. com
          > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>> wrote:
          >
          > Hello all;
          >
          > New to this group
          >
          > James Kirby
          >
          > Could anyone offer help on a word in Gen 25:27. The word is "aplastos".
          >
          > I cannot find any reference to this word in any lexicon & my copy of the
          >
          > LXX does not give a Strong's #. The Hebrew word is "tam" Strong's # 8535
          >
          > but I cannot find the Greek "aplastos".
          >
          > Thank you;
          >
          > James
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • James
          Hello; ... . What I am curious about is why did the KJV translate the Hebrew tam as plain in this verse. James
          Message 4 of 18 , May 31 10:03 AM
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            Hello;

            Sigrid Peterson wrote:
            >
            >
            > Note that the Greek APLOJ -- i.e. "aplos" -- means "simple; simply" as
            > does
            > the Hebrew TAM, the first according to BAG-D.
            >
            .
            What I am curious about is why did the KJV translate the Hebrew "tam"
            as "plain" in this verse.

            James
            >
            >
            > Sigrid Peterson, PhD
            > Coordinator
            > CCAT/CATSS Variants Project
            > Department of Religious Studies
            > 201 Logan Hall
            > University of Pennsylvania
            > Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA
            >
            > petersig {at} ccat.sas.upenn. edu
            > 001-215-898- 7453 (Department)
            > 001-215-275- 2740 (Cell)
            >
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lxx;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWF1Y2p0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyOTM3MDUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjA4ODYyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjQzNzQxMjky>
            > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
            >
            > *
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            >
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            >
            >
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            >
          • James
            ... . Is that word in the new testament? Thank you; James Kirby
            Message 5 of 18 , May 31 10:08 AM
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              Sigrid Peterson wrote:
              >
              >
              > Note that the Greek APLOJ -- i.e. "aplos" -- means "simple; simply" as
              > does
              > the Hebrew TAM, the first according to BAG-D.
              >
              >
              .
              Is that word in the new testament?

              Thank you;
              James Kirby
            • Louis Sorenson
              ἁπλοῦς, -ῆ, -οῦν simple, open, sincere (LXX 1; NT 2x ἁπλότης (8x)) ἄπλαστος (LXX 1; NT 0) TLG Word search:
              Message 6 of 18 , May 31 11:23 AM
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                ἁπλοῦς, -ῆ, -οῦν simple, open, sincere (LXX 1; NT 2x > ἁπλότης (8x))
                ἄπλαστος (LXX 1; NT 0)
                TLG Word search:
                ἀδιάπλαστος (4) ἄπλαστος (72) κατάπλαστος (18)
                ἀνάπλαστος (1) εὐδιάπλαστος (3) παράπλαστος (1)











                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                From: jamesjay@...
                Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 13:08:05 -0400
                Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Gen 25:27 aplastos






























                Sigrid Peterson wrote:

                >

                >

                > Note that the Greek APLOJ -- i.e. "aplos" -- means "simple; simply" as

                > does

                > the Hebrew TAM, the first according to BAG-D.

                >

                >

                .

                Is that word in the new testament?



                Thank you;

                James Kirby




















                _________________________________________________________________
                Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
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              • Sigrid Peterson
                James, Is this for homework? Then please note the reference materials quoted in response to your question, and use them. We aren t usually users of Strong
                Message 7 of 18 , May 31 12:07 PM
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                  James,
                  Is this for homework? Then please note the reference materials quoted in
                  response to your question, and use them. We aren't usually users of Strong
                  numbers. LATER: Thanks for answering your own question by using TLG to check
                  frequency and location of the word uses.

                  The NETS translation of the LXX uses "a simple man" for what you
                  questioned as APLASTOJ/aplastos, which probably is a superlative of
                  APLOUJ/aplous. So it might have been interpreted as "the simplest of men."
                  The syntax is odd, but then LXX syntax often is. In this case it follows
                  Hebrew syntax with the modifier after the noun, in the phrase ISH TAM. BAGD
                  lists the superlative APLOUSTATOJ, s.v. APLOUJ, with a meaning "quite
                  simple, guileless," as of doves -- found in Philo, among others. Think of
                  the phrase Professor Higgins sings in My Fair Lady "I'm a most forgiving man
                  . . ." Jacob is a "most simple" man, a "most guileless" man, compared to
                  Esau!

                  The NJPS translation of the Torah uses "mild" for TAM, as a comparison
                  with Esau. Still, TAM can also mean "simple, plain, naive" in Hebrew. As to
                  KJV translating TAM as "plain," that's ok; think of the phrase "plain and
                  simple." It's okay, but it doesn't grab the contrast in the verse and the
                  story as the dual implications of "simple" might, the contrast between Jacob
                  and Esau, think of the oral signal to the listeners of this oral history,
                  that there is conflict to come. Think of the LXX translator as listening to
                  an oral reader of the Hebrew who puts a special emphasis on TAM, to foretell
                  the guileful -- should I say "sneaky"? -- actions of Jacob.

                  Here, I think the LXX has nailed it, in translating ISH TAM as ANTHRWPOJ
                  APLASTOJ.





                  On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:08 PM, James <jamesjay@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sigrid Peterson wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Note that the Greek APLOJ -- i.e. "aplos" -- means "simple; simply" as
                  > > does
                  > > the Hebrew TAM, the first according to BAG-D.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > .
                  > Is that word in the new testament?
                  >
                  > Thank you;
                  > James Kirby
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James
                  Gooday! ... . More for my own personal studies. Thank you for a very helpful answer/explanation. Allow me to explain my quest. In cultivating an interest in
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 31 12:56 PM
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                    Gooday!

                    Sigrid Peterson wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > James,
                    > Is this for homework?
                    >
                    .
                    More for my own personal studies. Thank you for a very helpful
                    answer/explanation. Allow me to explain my quest. In cultivating an
                    interest in the Hebrew language for the purpose of reading the OT I came
                    across this site on Ancient Hebrew;

                    http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/index.html

                    The site makes the following claim;

                    "This Greek influence can be clearly seen in names such as Moses which
                    comes to us from the Greek Septuagint whereas in the Hebrew it is
                    Mosheh. Another example is the name Eve, again from the Greek, where the
                    Hebrew has Hhawa. The list is about as long as the number of names in
                    the Bible. A little more serious is how the translations have actually
                    used the Greek Septuagint for its translation rather than from the
                    Hebrew text. An example is Genesis 25:27 where all the translations use
                    the words "plain", "quiet" or "simple" to describe the character of
                    Jacob. However, the Hebrew word is "tam" and it is properly translated
                    in Job 1:1 as "perfect" to describe the character of Job. Why is this
                    one Hebrew word translated as "plain" in one place but "perfect" in
                    another? The answer is that the translators are using the Greek
                    Septuagint rather than the Hebrew for the translation of the Hebrew Bible."

                    I am attempting to ascertain just how accurate the claim "the
                    translations have actually used the Greek Septuagint for its translation
                    rather than from the Hebrew text / that the translators are using the
                    Greek Septuagint rather than the Hebrew for the translation of the
                    Hebrew Bible" is. Since I only see this in the KJV I would assume that
                    this is who he is referring to by "the translators" but I have not
                    heard that the men who translated the KJV did so using the LXX.
                    Perhaps you or someone else can comment on that.

                    Thank you again;
                    James Kirby
                    .
                  • Kostas Papadopoulos
                    Hi, The word itself means not-formed (a= + plastos=formated [from the v. plasso = to form]). Since it is possible for plastos to have the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 2, 2009
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                      Hi,
                      The word itself means not-formed (a=<negative prefix> + plastos=formated [from the v. plasso = to form]). Since it is possible for "plastos" to have the meaning of "fabricated" according to Hesychius lexicon (5th c. AD)ie. not the truth (Aesch.) - "a-plastos" could have the - metaphorical - meanning of "truthful" and could me a possible rendering of "thm".
                      "Simple" in Greek is "aplous" (not-complicated, from nevative "a" + plous=multi (like in "multi-plication"). The two words aplous/aplastos seem related but not directly).

                      See also:
                      Hesychious lexicon
                      5123 απλαστος (aplastos)
                      ἄ-πλαστος, ον, not moulded, i. e. in its natural state, natural, unaffected, Plut.

                      --- Στις Κυρ., 31/05/09, ο/η James <jamesjay@...> έγραψε:

                      > Από: James <jamesjay@...>
                      > Θέμα: [lxx] Gen 25:27 aplastos
                      > Προς: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                      > Ημερομηνία: Κυριακή, 31 Μάιος 2009, 4:13
                      > Hello all;
                      >
                      > New to this group
                      >
                      > James Kirby
                      >
                      > Could anyone offer help on a word in Gen 25:27. The word is
                      > "aplastos".
                      > I cannot find any reference to this word in any lexicon
                      > & my copy of the
                      > LXX does not give a Strong's #. The Hebrew word is "tam"
                      > Strong's # 8535
                      > but I cannot find the  Greek "aplastos".
                      >
                      > Thank you;
                      > James
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >     mailto:lxx-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >



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                    • James
                      Thank you very much. Most helpful! James Kirby
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 2, 2009
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                        Thank you very much. Most helpful!

                        James Kirby

                        Kostas Papadopoulos wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi,
                        > The word itself means not-formed (a=<negative prefix> +
                        > plastos=formated [from the v. plasso = to form]). Since it is possible
                        > for "plastos" to have the meaning of "fabricated" according to
                        > Hesychius lexicon (5th c. AD)ie. not the truth (Aesch.) - "a-plastos"
                        > could have the - metaphorical - meanning of "truthful" and could me a
                        > possible rendering of "thm".
                        > "Simple" in Greek is "aplous" (not-complicated, from nevative "a" +
                        > plous=multi (like in "multi-plication" ). The two words
                        > aplous/aplastos seem related but not directly).
                        >
                        > See also:
                        > Hesychious lexicon
                        > 5123 απλαστος (aplastos)
                        > ἄ-πλαστος, ον, not moulded, i. e. in its natural state, natural,
                        > unaffected, Plut.
                        >
                        > --- Στις Κυρ., 31/05/09, ο/η James <jamesjay@paonline. com
                        > <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>> έγραψε:
                        >
                        > > Από: James <jamesjay@paonline. com <mailto:jamesjay%40paonline.com>>
                        > > Θέμα: [lxx] Gen 25:27 aplastos
                        > > Προς: lxx@yahoogroups. com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Ημερομηνία: Κυριακή, 31 Μάιος 2009, 4:13
                        > > Hello all;
                        > >
                        > > New to this group
                        > >
                        > > James Kirby
                        > >
                        > > Could anyone offer help on a word in Gen 25:27. The word is
                        > > "aplastos".
                        > > I cannot find any reference to this word in any lexicon
                        > > & my copy of the
                        > > LXX does not give a Strong's #. The Hebrew word is "tam"
                        > > Strong's # 8535
                        > > but I cannot find the Greek "aplastos".
                        > >
                        > > Thank you;
                        > > James
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > mailto:lxx-fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
                        > <mailto:lxx-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
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                        >
                        >
                      • Branka ARRIVE
                        The two words ( haplous and aplastos ) are not related at all. The a in haplous is from Indoeuropean *sem/sm*- (one, single) like in Latin simplex
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 2, 2009
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                          The two words ("haplous" and "aplastos") are not related at all. The "a" in "haplous" is from Indoeuropean *sem/sm*- (one, single) like in Latin "simplex" (those two words ARE related), whereas the "a" in "aplastos" is alpha privativum.

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Kostas Papadopoulos
                          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:51 AM
                          Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen 25:27 aplastos






                          Hi,
                          The word itself means not-formed (a=<negative prefix> + plastos=formated [from the v. plasso = to form]). Since it is possible for "plastos" to have the meaning of "fabricated" according to Hesychius lexicon (5th c. AD)ie. not the truth (Aesch.) - "a-plastos" could have the - metaphorical - meanning of "truthful" and could me a possible rendering of "thm".
                          "Simple" in Greek is "aplous" (not-complicated, from nevative "a" + plous=multi (like in "multi-plication"). The two words aplous/aplastos seem related but not directly).

                          See also:
                          Hesychious lexicon
                          5123 απλαστος (aplastos)
                          ἄ-πλαστος, ον, not moulded, i. e. in its natural state, natural, unaffected, Plut.

                          --- Στις Κυρ., 31/05/09, ο/η James <jamesjay@...> έγραψε:

                          > Από: James <jamesjay@...>
                          > Θέμα: [lxx] Gen 25:27 aplastos
                          > Προς: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          > Ημερομηνία: Κυριακή, 31 Μάιος 2009, 4:13
                          > Hello all;
                          >
                          > New to this group
                          >
                          > James Kirby
                          >
                          > Could anyone offer help on a word in Gen 25:27. The word is
                          > "aplastos".
                          > I cannot find any reference to this word in any lexicon
                          > & my copy of the
                          > LXX does not give a Strong's #. The Hebrew word is "tam"
                          > Strong's # 8535
                          > but I cannot find the Greek "aplastos".
                          >
                          > Thank you;
                          > James
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          > mailto:lxx-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          __________________________________________________________
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                        • George Blaisdell
                          Thank-you for a singularly helpful post, That a-privative was bothering me... As applied to women, then, what meaning can we ascribe? Arsenios George Blaisdell
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 2, 2009
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                            Thank-you for a singularly helpful post,

                            That a-privative was bothering me...

                            As applied to women, then, what meaning can we ascribe?

                            Arsenios

                            George Blaisdell
                            Roslyn, WA





                            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            From: el504@...
                            Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 01:51:39 -0700
                            Subject: Re: [lxx] Gen 25:27 aplastos




























                            Hi,

                            The word itself means not-formed (a=<negative prefix> + plastos=formated [from the v. plasso = to form]). Since it is possible for "plastos" to have the meaning of "fabricated" according to Hesychius lexicon (5th c. AD)ie. not the truth (Aesch.) - "a-plastos" could have the - metaphorical - meanning of "truthful" and could me a possible rendering of "thm".

                            "Simple" in Greek is "aplous" (not-complicated, from nevative "a" + plous=multi (like in "multi-plication"). The two words aplous/aplastos seem related but not directly).



                            See also:

                            Hesychious lexicon

                            5123 απλαστος (aplastos)

                            ἄ-πλαστος, ον, not moulded, i. e. in its natural state, natural, unaffected, Plut.



                            --- Στις Κυρ., 31/05/09, ο/η James <jamesjay@...> έγραψε:



                            > Από: James <jamesjay@...>

                            > Θέμα: [lxx] Gen 25:27 aplastos

                            > Προς: lxx@yahoogroups.com

                            > Ημερομηνία: Κυριακή, 31 Μάιος 2009, 4:13

                            > Hello all;

                            >

                            > New to this group

                            >

                            > James Kirby

                            >

                            > Could anyone offer help on a word in Gen 25:27. The word is

                            > "aplastos".

                            > I cannot find any reference to this word in any lexicon

                            > & my copy of the

                            > LXX does not give a Strong's #. The Hebrew word is "tam"

                            > Strong's # 8535

                            > but I cannot find the Greek "aplastos".

                            >

                            > Thank you;

                            > James

                            >

                            >

                            > ------------------------------------

                            >

                            > Yahoo! Groups Links

                            >

                            >

                            > mailto:lxx-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                            >

                            >

                            >



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                          • Kostas Papadopoulos
                            I m not so sure about that. I think that the spelling ha-plous is deceiving. ... I m not sure about that. A in a-plous is also likely to be a-privative:
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 2, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I'm not so sure about that.
                              I think that the spelling "ha-plous" is deceiving.
                              --- Στις Τρίτ., 02/06/09, ο/η Branka ARRIVE <branka@...> έγραψε:

                              > Από: Branka ARRIVE <branka@...>
                              > Θέμα: Re: [lxx] Gen 25:27 aplastos
                              > Προς: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > Ημερομηνία: Τρίτη, 2 Ιούνιος 2009, 18:50
                              > The two words ("haplous" and
                              > "aplastos") are not related at all. The "a" in "haplous" is
                              > from Indoeuropean *sem/sm*- (one, single) like in Latin
                              > "simplex" (those two words ARE related), whereas the "a" in
                              > "aplastos" is alpha privativum.
                              >

                              I'm not sure about that.
                              "A" in a-plous is also likely to be a-privative:
                              a-plous=simple/single (not-many)
                              di-plous=double (two-many)
                              tri-plous=triple (three-many)
                              tetra-plous...
                              penta-...
                              etc. etc.

                              "plous" is form "many", "multi", "additional", (in English "plus"). The word is related to "simple" / "simplex" in meaning and suffix, but the prefix....?





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