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Psalms 21: 3 ἐις ἄνοι αν μοι.‏

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  • Louis Sorenson
    Hello all, I m a little perplexed about the 2nd line in Psalm 21:3 (The following lines are from Origen s Hexapla by Fields): Rahlfs/Origen: καὶ
    Message 1 of 5 , May 27, 2009
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      Hello all,

      I'm a little perplexed about the 2nd line in Psalm 21:3 "
      (The following lines are from Origen's Hexapla by Fields):
      Rahlfs/Origen: καὶ νυκτός, καὶ οὐκ εἰς ἄνοιαν ἐμοί.
      Symmachos: καὶ νυκτὸς, οὐκ ἔστι σιγή μοι
      Οἱ Λοιποί· καὶ νυκτὸς, καὶ οὐκ ἔστι σιγή.
      Ε. ....σιωπή
      S. (Sinaiticus?) ....σιγή μοι
      Ἄλλος οὐκ εἰς ἀφρωσύνην


      NETS: and it becomes no folly for me.
      Hebrew: וְלֹא תַעֲנֶה וְלַיְלָה וְלֹא־4דוְּמִיָּה לִי
      NASB: And by night, but I have no rest.

      What I can find is the Hebrew word is דוֹּמִיָּה meaning 'silence, still, waiting, repose. Can this word have the meaning of 'folly'?

      See Origen's Hexapla p. 118 at http://www.letsreadgreek.com/psalms/psalm021/origenhexapla_psalm021.pdf.

      So
      where does εἰς ἄνοιαν come from. Why the preposition εἰς? Any ideas or
      suggestions? How does one explain the presence of ἄνοιαν and ἀφρωσύνη?

      Louis Sorenson

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • Sigrid Peterson
      This is my guess, enough to go to sleep on -- this psalm gives me no rest ... DWMYH means repose, rest, occasionally or possibly silence. . BDB attests it
      Message 2 of 5 , May 28, 2009
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        This is my guess, enough to go to sleep on -- this psalm gives me no rest
        :-)

        DWMYH means "repose, rest," occasionally or possibly silence. ." BDB attests
        it only four times, all in psalms.

        ANOIA definitely means "folly." But EIS is not entirely always a
        preposition, and even misreading Psalm numbers, Hatch and Redpath don't find
        it (as a preposition) in Psalm 21(22). Hatch and Redpath also agree (s.v.
        ANOIA) that it does not agree with DWMYH. So, for the Rahlf's text, which is
        the CATSS variants running text, καὶ νυκτός, καὶ οὐκ εἰς ἄνοιαν ἐμοί, I
        would suggest that it be Englished as:

        And night, but not one folly (i.e., dream) to (comfort) me.

        Thus the Old Greek translator seems here to have opted for Greek that
        expresses the thought, yet is as concise as the Hebrew -- without having
        word equivalence.

        Yet, on the possibility that ἄνοια and ἀφρωσύνη, each of which has the
        dictionary meaning of ignorance, might have been understood in the context
        of sleeping at night in ignorance of daytime awareness -- which we might
        want to express as "oblivion." And this brings us back to the Hebrew DUMYH
        "repose, rest." Also, σιγή in BAGD (or DBAG) is "silence," as in the absence
        of sound or clamor or noise. Is that technically closer to "repose," or
        another understanding of DUMYH, nightly rest? An English equivalent for σιγή
        is hard for me to find, so I will rest.

        Comments?

        All the Best,
        Sigrid Peterson




        Sigrid Peterson, PhD
        Coordinator
        CCAT/CATSS Variants Project
        Department of Religious Studies
        201 Logan Hall
        University of Pennsylvania
        Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA

        petersig {at} ccat.sas.upenn.edu
        001-215-898-7453 (Department)
        001-215-275-2740 (Cell)



        2009/5/28 Louis Sorenson <llsorenson@...>

        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello all,
        >
        > I'm a little perplexed about the 2nd line in Psalm 21:3 "
        > (The following lines are from Origen's Hexapla by Fields):
        > Rahlfs/Origen: καὶ νυκτός, καὶ οὐκ εἰς ἄνοιαν ἐμοί.
        > Symmachos: καὶ νυκτὸς, οὐκ ἔστι σιγή μοι
        > Οἱ Λοιποί· καὶ νυκτὸς, καὶ οὐκ ἔστι σιγή.
        > Ε. ....σιωπή
        > S. (Sinaiticus?) ....σιγή μοι
        > Ἄλλος οὐκ εἰς ἀφρωσύνην
        >
        >
        > NETS: and it becomes no folly for me.
        > Hebrew: וְלֹא תַעֲנֶה וְלַיְלָה וְלֹא־4דוְּמִיָּה לִי
        > NASB: And by night, but I have no rest.
        >
        > What I can find is the Hebrew word is דוֹּמִיָּה meaning 'silence, still,
        > waiting, repose. Can this word have the meaning of 'folly'?
        >
        > See Origen's Hexapla p. 118 at
        > http://www.letsreadgreek.com/psalms/psalm021/origenhexapla_psalm021.pdf.
        >
        > So
        > where does εἰς ἄνοιαν come from. Why the preposition εἰς? Any ideas or
        > suggestions? How does one explain the presence of ἄνοιαν and ἀφρωσύνη?
        >
        > Louis Sorenson
        >
        > __________________________________________________________
        > Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.
        >
        > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rxgauthier
        I wonder if this isn’t a case of “Aramaizing.” Sometimes it is a stretch to make that case †and perhaps here too †but the
        Message 3 of 5 , May 28, 2009
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          I wonder if this isn’t a case of “Aramaizing.” Sometimes it is a stretch to make that case â€" and perhaps here too â€" but the translator(s) obviously struggled to some degree with this word, seeing that it is rendered differently in the Greek in all four of its instances. It might be possible that the translator drew from the Aramaic DMA [×"מא] (Jastrow 313.1) “to be dumb” (i.e. stupid? silent?), or “right, permitted” (cf. gloss from Jastrow 313.2, under the heading, “to imagin, consider”) instead of the Hebrew DWMYH [×"ומי×"]. DMA also has other attested forms such as DMYA [×"מיא] (see also MDMYA ×"/מ×"מיא in the pass fem ptc). Of course the Aramaic alpha and he are often interchangeable, thus a possible DMYH [×"מי×"], etc. Note the same defective spelling [DMYH, ×"מי×"] in MT-Ps 65:2. This would also explain the issue in LXX-Ps 64.2 (MT-65:2), where πρέπω “fitting, suitable, what is right” is found. Of course the lexica do associate ἄνοια (“folly”) with “human ignorance” (BDAG) and “want of understanding” (LSJ). The preposition in our verse might then attempt to simply make sense of it. Another possibility might be, as the apparatus states in Psalmi cum Odis, that instead of εἰς ἄνοιαν one read εἰς ἄνεσιν “for rest” (cf. Ode 12:10 καὶ οὐκ á¼"στιν μοι ἄνεσις).

          -Randall Gauthier



          --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Sigrid Peterson <petersig@...> wrote:
          >
          > This is my guess, enough to go to sleep on -- this psalm gives me no rest
          > :-)
          >
          > DWMYH means "repose, rest," occasionally or possibly silence. ." BDB attests
          > it only four times, all in psalms.
          >
          > ANOIA definitely means "folly." But EIS is not entirely always a
          > preposition, and even misreading Psalm numbers, Hatch and Redpath don't find
          > it (as a preposition) in Psalm 21(22). Hatch and Redpath also agree (s.v.
          > ANOIA) that it does not agree with DWMYH. So, for the Rahlf's text, which is
          > the CATSS variants running text, καὶ νυκτός, καὶ οὐκ εἰς ἄνοιαν ἐμοί, I
          > would suggest that it be Englished as:
          >
          > And night, but not one folly (i.e., dream) to (comfort) me.
          >
          > Thus the Old Greek translator seems here to have opted for Greek that
          > expresses the thought, yet is as concise as the Hebrew -- without having
          > word equivalence.
          >
          > Yet, on the possibility that ἄνοια and ἀφρωσύνη, each of which has the
          > dictionary meaning of ignorance, might have been understood in the context
          > of sleeping at night in ignorance of daytime awareness -- which we might
          > want to express as "oblivion." And this brings us back to the Hebrew DUMYH
          > "repose, rest." Also, σιγή in BAGD (or DBAG) is "silence," as in the absence
          > of sound or clamor or noise. Is that technically closer to "repose," or
          > another understanding of DUMYH, nightly rest? An English equivalent for σιγή
          > is hard for me to find, so I will rest.
          >
          > Comments?
          >
          > All the Best,
          > Sigrid Peterson
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Sigrid Peterson, PhD
          > Coordinator
          > CCAT/CATSS Variants Project
          > Department of Religious Studies
          > 201 Logan Hall
          > University of Pennsylvania
          > Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA
          >
          > petersig {at} ccat.sas.upenn.edu
          > 001-215-898-7453 (Department)
          > 001-215-275-2740 (Cell)
          >
          >
          >
          > 2009/5/28 Louis Sorenson <llsorenson@...>
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hello all,
          > >
          > > I'm a little perplexed about the 2nd line in Psalm 21:3 "
          > > (The following lines are from Origen's Hexapla by Fields):
          > > Rahlfs/Origen: καὶ νυκτός, καὶ οὐκ εἰς ἄνοιαν ἐμοί.
          > > Symmachos: καὶ νυκτὸς, οὐκ á¼"στι σιγή μοι
          > > Οἱ Λοιποί· καὶ νυκτὸς, καὶ οὐκ á¼"στι σιγή.
          > > Ε. ....σιωπή
          > > S. (Sinaiticus?) ....σιγή μοι
          > > Ἄλλος οὐκ εἰς ἀφρωσύνην
          > >
          > >
          > > NETS: and it becomes no folly for me.
          > > Hebrew: וְלֹא תַעֲנֶ×" וְלַיְלָ×" וְלֹא־4×"וְּמִיָּ×" לִי
          > > NASB: And by night, but I have no rest.
          > >
          > > What I can find is the Hebrew word is ×"וֹּמִיָּ×" meaning 'silence, still,
          > > waiting, repose. Can this word have the meaning of 'folly'?
          > >
          > > See Origen's Hexapla p. 118 at
          > > http://www.letsreadgreek.com/psalms/psalm021/origenhexapla_psalm021.pdf.
          > >
          > > So
          > > where does εἰς ἄνοιαν come from. Why the preposition εἰς? Any ideas or
          > > suggestions? How does one explain the presence of ἄνοιαν and ἀφρωσύνη?
          > >
          > > Louis Sorenson
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________________
          > > Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.
          > >
          > > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Louis Sorenson
          Forwarded from Bruce McKinnon: A good question. As far as I can make out there are two possible explanations. 1. According to Mozley (p. 39), the Septuagint
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 6, 2009
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            Forwarded from Bruce McKinnon:
            A good
            question. As far as I can make out there are two possible explanations.

            1.
            According to Mozley (p. 39), the Septuagint translators did not know the
            meaning of the Hebrew word in question (דוֹּמִיָּה ). He gives instances
            where the word receives unrelated translations where it occurs elsewhere in the
            Psalms. If Mozley is correct, then ἄνοιαν was simply a best guess as to what the
            Hebrew actually meant.

            2. A
            second possible explanation is that the Hebrew text used by the Septuagint
            translators differed from others in circulation, including those used by
            Symmachus and others. I know very little about the state of the Hebrew
            text at that time but have read that there were Hebrew versions differing in some
            respects from that used by the Septuagint authors. Perhaps their version
            used a word which could be reasonably translated as ἄνοιαν.


            With respect to
            ἀφρωσύνην referred to in Field's footnote 15 in his edition of the Hexapla, he
            comments "Scholium esse videtur": it appears to be a
            scholium. Sometimes marginal notes (scholia) by scribes and others
            eventually became incorprated into the text of ancient manuscripts. If
            that is the case here, ἀφρωσύνην is simply a variant word or explanation by a
            scholiast for the word ἄνοιαν.

            Any comments?

            Bruce McKinnon



            To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            From: petersig@...
            Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 03:31:36 -0400
            Subject: Re: [lxx] Psalms 21:3 ἐις ἄνοιαν μοι.‏


























            This is my guess, enough to go to sleep on -- this psalm gives me no rest

            :-)



            DWMYH means "repose, rest," occasionally or possibly silence. ." BDB attests

            it only four times, all in psalms.



            ANOIA definitely means "folly." But EIS is not entirely always a

            preposition, and even misreading Psalm numbers, Hatch and Redpath don't find

            it (as a preposition) in Psalm 21(22). Hatch and Redpath also agree (s.v.

            ANOIA) that it does not agree with DWMYH. So, for the Rahlf's text, which is

            the CATSS variants running text, καὶ νυκτός, καὶ οὐκ εἰς ἄνοιαν ἐμοί, I

            would suggest that it be Englished as:



            And night, but not one folly (i.e., dream) to (comfort) me.



            Thus the Old Greek translator seems here to have opted for Greek that

            expresses the thought, yet is as concise as the Hebrew -- without having

            word equivalence.



            Yet, on the possibility that ἄνοια and ἀφρωσύνη, each of which has the

            dictionary meaning of ignorance, might have been understood in the context

            of sleeping at night in ignorance of daytime awareness -- which we might

            want to express as "oblivion." And this brings us back to the Hebrew DUMYH

            "repose, rest." Also, σιγή in BAGD (or DBAG) is "silence," as in the absence

            of sound or clamor or noise. Is that technically closer to "repose," or

            another understanding of DUMYH, nightly rest? An English equivalent for σιγή

            is hard for me to find, so I will rest.



            Comments?



            All the Best,

            Sigrid Peterson



            Sigrid Peterson, PhD

            Coordinator

            CCAT/CATSS Variants Project

            Department of Religious Studies

            201 Logan Hall

            University of Pennsylvania

            Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA



            petersig {at} ccat.sas.upenn.edu

            001-215-898-7453 (Department)

            001-215-275-2740 (Cell)



            2009/5/28 Louis Sorenson <llsorenson@...>



            >

            >

            >

            >

            > Hello all,

            >

            > I'm a little perplexed about the 2nd line in Psalm 21:3 "

            > (The following lines are from Origen's Hexapla by Fields):

            > Rahlfs/Origen: καὶ νυκτός, καὶ οὐκ εἰς ἄνοιαν ἐμοί.

            > Symmachos: καὶ νυκτὸς, οὐκ ἔστι σιγή μοι

            > Οἱ Λοιποί· καὶ νυκτὸς, καὶ οὐκ ἔστι σιγή.

            > Ε. ....σιωπή

            > S. (Sinaiticus?) ....σιγή μοι

            > Ἄλλος οὐκ εἰς ἀφρωσύνην

            >

            >

            > NETS: and it becomes no folly for me.

            > Hebrew: וְלֹא תַעֲנֶה וְלַיְלָה וְלֹא־4דוְּמִיָּה לִי

            > NASB: And by night, but I have no rest.

            >

            > What I can find is the Hebrew word is דוֹּמִיָּה meaning 'silence, still,

            > waiting, repose. Can this word have the meaning of 'folly'?

            >

            > See Origen's Hexapla p. 118 at

            > http://www.letsreadgreek.com/psalms/psalm021/origenhexapla_psalm021.pdf.

            >

            > So

            > where does εἰς ἄνοιαν come from. Why the preposition εἰς? Any ideas or

            > suggestions? How does one explain the presence of ἄνοιαν and ἀφρωσύνη?

            >

            > Louis Sorenson

            >

            > __________________________________________________________

            > Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.

            >

            > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009

            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >

            >

            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















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          • Louis Sorenson
            Perhaps there are some copying errors where εστι (εστι) is copied as εις (εισ) from the above line? Both lines have the squence EICA.
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 6, 2009
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              Perhaps
              there are some copying errors where εστι (εστι) is copied as εις (εισ) from
              the above line? Both lines have the
              squence EICA.

              ημερασπροσξεκαιουκεισακουση

              καινυκτοσκαιουκεισανοιανεμοι

              ·
              ουκεισακουση

              ·
              ουκεστανοιανεμοι

              ·
              ουκεισανοινανεμοι

              ·
              ουκεστισιγηεμοι
              Louis Sorenson



              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              From: llsorenson@...
              Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:37:31 -0500
              Subject: RE: [lxx] Psalms 21:3 ἐις ἄνοιαν μοι.‏



































              Forwarded from Bruce McKinnon:


              A good


              question. As far as I can make out there are two possible explanations.





              1.


              According to Mozley (p. 39), the Septuagint translators did not know the


              meaning of the Hebrew word in question (דוֹּמִיָּה ). He gives instances


              where the word receives unrelated translations where it occurs elsewhere in the


              Psalms. If Mozley is correct, then ἄνοιαν was simply a best guess as to what the


              Hebrew actually meant.





              2. A


              second possible explanation is that the Hebrew text used by the Septuagint


              translators differed from others in circulation, including those used by


              Symmachus and others. I know very little about the state of the Hebrew


              text at that time but have read that there were Hebrew versions differing in some


              respects from that used by the Septuagint authors. Perhaps their version


              used a word which could be reasonably translated as ἄνοιαν.








              With respect to


              ἀφρωσύνην referred to in Field's footnote 15 in his edition of the Hexapla, he


              comments "Scholium esse videtur": it appears to be a


              scholium. Sometimes marginal notes (scholia) by scribes and others


              eventually became incorprated into the text of ancient manuscripts. If


              that is the case here, ἀφρωσύνην is simply a variant word or explanation by a


              scholiast for the word ἄνοιαν.





              Any comments?





              Bruce McKinnon











              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com


              From: petersig@...


              Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 03:31:36 -0400


              Subject: Re: [lxx] Psalms 21:3 ἐις ἄνοιαν μοι.‏
















































































              This is my guess, enough to go to sleep on -- this psalm gives me no rest





              :-)











              DWMYH means "repose, rest," occasionally or possibly silence. ." BDB attests





              it only four times, all in psalms.











              ANOIA definitely means "folly." But EIS is not entirely always a





              preposition, and even misreading Psalm numbers, Hatch and Redpath don't find





              it (as a preposition) in Psalm 21(22). Hatch and Redpath also agree (s.v.





              ANOIA) that it does not agree with DWMYH. So, for the Rahlf's text, which is





              the CATSS variants running text, καὶ νυκτός, καὶ οὐκ εἰς ἄνοιαν ἐμοί, I





              would suggest that it be Englished as:











              And night, but not one folly (i.e., dream) to (comfort) me.











              Thus the Old Greek translator seems here to have opted for Greek that





              expresses the thought, yet is as concise as the Hebrew -- without having





              word equivalence.











              Yet, on the possibility that ἄνοια and ἀφρωσύνη, each of which has the





              dictionary meaning of ignorance, might have been understood in the context





              of sleeping at night in ignorance of daytime awareness -- which we might





              want to express as "oblivion." And this brings us back to the Hebrew DUMYH





              "repose, rest." Also, σιγή in BAGD (or DBAG) is "silence," as in the absence





              of sound or clamor or noise. Is that technically closer to "repose," or





              another understanding of DUMYH, nightly rest? An English equivalent for σιγή





              is hard for me to find, so I will rest.











              Comments?











              All the Best,





              Sigrid Peterson











              Sigrid Peterson, PhD





              Coordinator





              CCAT/CATSS Variants Project





              Department of Religious Studies





              201 Logan Hall





              University of Pennsylvania





              Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA











              petersig {at} ccat.sas.upenn.edu





              001-215-898-7453 (Department)





              001-215-275-2740 (Cell)











              2009/5/28 Louis Sorenson <llsorenson@...>











              >





              >





              >





              >





              > Hello all,





              >





              > I'm a little perplexed about the 2nd line in Psalm 21:3 "





              > (The following lines are from Origen's Hexapla by Fields):





              > Rahlfs/Origen: καὶ νυκτός, καὶ οὐκ εἰς ἄνοιαν ἐμοί.





              > Symmachos: καὶ νυκτὸς, οὐκ ἔστι σιγή μοι





              > Οἱ Λοιποί· καὶ νυκτὸς, καὶ οὐκ ἔστι σιγή.





              > Ε. ....σιωπή





              > S. (Sinaiticus?) ....σιγή μοι





              > Ἄλλος οὐκ εἰς ἀφρωσύνην





              >





              >





              > NETS: and it becomes no folly for me.





              > Hebrew: וְלֹא תַעֲנֶה וְלַיְלָה וְלֹא־4דוְּמִיָּה לִי





              > NASB: And by night, but I have no rest.





              >





              > What I can find is the Hebrew word is דוֹּמִיָּה meaning 'silence, still,





              > waiting, repose. Can this word have the meaning of 'folly'?





              >





              > See Origen's Hexapla p. 118 at





              > http://www.letsreadgreek.com/psalms/psalm021/origenhexapla_psalm021.pdf.





              >





              > So





              > where does εἰς ἄνοιαν come from. Why the preposition εἰς? Any ideas or





              > suggestions? How does one explain the presence of ἄνοιαν and ἀφρωσύνη?





              >





              > Louis Sorenson





              >





              > __________________________________________________________





              > Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.





              >





              > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009





              >





              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              >





              >





              >











              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




































































              __________________________________________________________


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