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[lxx] LXX of the Orthodox Church

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  • Richard J Saley
    Does anyone know of a study of the textual characteristics (e.g., OG, kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the version of the LXX used by the Orthodox Church?
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 30, 1999
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      Does anyone know of a study of the textual characteristics (e.g., OG,
      kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the version of the LXX used by the
      Orthodox Church?

      Any information would be much appreciated.

      Thanks,
      Dick Saley

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      | Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239 |
      | The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904 |
      | Harvard University saley@... |
      | Six Divinity Avenue |
      | Cambridge, MA 02138 USA |
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    • james and tatyana miller
      Dr. Saley: Let me first state, in answer to your inquiry, that I do not know of any study of the textual characteristics of the LXX version used by the
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 1999
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        Dr. Saley:

        Let me first state, in answer to your inquiry, that I do not know of any
        study of the textual characteristics of the LXX version used by the
        Orthodox Church. If there were such a study, I would love to read it. If
        someone from the list can point to one, please do.

        In lieu of a more positive answer to your question, let me ask some further
        clarification on your request. At the same time I will point to a few
        further considerations. Perhaps this will generate a dialogue that could
        help inform on this and related matters.

        I want to first ask what you have in mind when you mention the "LXX version
        of the Orthodox Church"? You could have a certain historical period in
        mind; or perhaps you are speaking of contemporary times? Additionally, when
        you mention "LXX version" do you perhaps have in mind a general conception
        of a book corresponding to modern Bibles, or at least to the OT portion of
        modern Bibles?

        There are currently efforts afoot in certain Orthodox circles (in America,
        so far as I know) to translate an edition of the LXX into English, for
        example. This group is using Rahlfs' edition, a text which would contain
        all the textual characteristics you mentioned, since it constitutes a
        critical--though provisional--text upon which subsequent attempts (the
        Gottingen Unternehmen) to reconstitute the OG could be based. For obvious
        reasons I don't think one could meaningfully speak of the Rahlfs edition as
        an LXX version used historically by the Orthodox Church--it was only first
        published in the 1930's, after all. In the modern Greek Church, I doubt
        whether the OT as a book to itself--whether or not it be one half of a
        larger work containing the NT such as would correspond with what moderns
        think of as the Bible--really exists. Instead, what there is of the OT
        would be portions from various biblical books, typically incorporated into
        other, liturgical books (e.g. the menaion or triodion) in the context of
        the particular service (e.g., vespers) at which they would be read. I'm
        more familiar with contemporary Russian liturgical practice than with
        Greek, so if anyone has corrections or qualifications of what I have said
        about scripture use in the Greek Church, please offer them. I give Greek
        practice as a paradigm because Russian practice, involving translation of
        the texts in question, presenta a more complex picture.

        This leads into the historical dimension of your question--if there is one.
        What would have been known from our Bible to the majority of people in past
        ages (pre-printing press times) would have been precisely those portions
        which were read in public worship services. These actually comprised a very
        limited part of our present-day OT--maybe 1/10th. Fuller collections
        approaching the scope of our modern OT's would have been a real rarity. The
        portions of the OT which were read in public worship were collected into a
        single volume starting in about the 9th century (the "Prophetologion"). If
        one uses "Bible" in the sense of a collection of biblical writings widely
        known and read (or at least heard), then this collection could be called
        the "Bible" of the Orthodox Church of those times (9th - 16th centuries).
        I've done some study of it, and it too seems to be an eclectic text, not
        strictly related to any of the text types you mentioned--though the
        Lucianic would probably predominate. Also, this is likely the OT text whose
        portions were later (with the advent of the printing press) incorporated
        into the liturgical books I mentioned above.

        I'm sorry I can't give a clearer answer: maybe someone else can say
        something more to the point. But I hope this helps. If I have misunderstood
        your questions, please feel free to point this out and I will try and
        respond accordingly.

        Sincerely, James Miller

        At 04:19 PM 9/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
        >Does anyone know of a study of the textual characteristics (e.g., OG,
        >kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the version of the LXX used by the
        >Orthodox Church?
        >
        >Any information would be much appreciated.
        >
        >Thanks,
        >Dick Saley
        >
        >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >| Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239 |
        >| The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904 |
        >| Harvard University saley@... |
        >| Six Divinity Avenue |
        >| Cambridge, MA 02138 USA |
        >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
        >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • welovegod
        There is much to say. Brenton preformed a translation.. crude but enlightening.it was a literal translation. The only reference to this where iI know to get it
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 1, 1999
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          There is much to say. Brenton preformed a
          translation.. crude but enlightening.it was a
          literal translation. The only reference to this
          where iI know to get it is at SOutheastern
          College in Lakekand Forida, but i suspect others
          have a copy.

          I want to talk to the Sernian Orthodox community
          to get their oldest book. I have a hunch they
          have the original.

          Stephen P. O'Leary



          --- james and tatyana miller <jamtat@...>
          wrote:
          > Dr. Saley:
          >
          > Let me first state, in answer to your inquiry,
          > that I do not know of any
          > study of the textual characteristics of the LXX
          > version used by the
          > Orthodox Church. If there were such a study, I
          > would love to read it. If
          > someone from the list can point to one, please
          > do.
          >
          > In lieu of a more positive answer to your
          > question, let me ask some further
          > clarification on your request. At the same time
          > I will point to a few
          > further considerations. Perhaps this will
          > generate a dialogue that could
          > help inform on this and related matters.
          >
          > I want to first ask what you have in mind when
          > you mention the "LXX version
          > of the Orthodox Church"? You could have a
          > certain historical period in
          > mind; or perhaps you are speaking of
          > contemporary times? Additionally, when
          > you mention "LXX version" do you perhaps have
          > in mind a general conception
          > of a book corresponding to modern Bibles, or at
          > least to the OT portion of
          > modern Bibles?
          >
          > There are currently efforts afoot in certain
          > Orthodox circles (in America,
          > so far as I know) to translate an edition of
          > the LXX into English, for
          > example. This group is using Rahlfs' edition, a
          > text which would contain
          > all the textual characteristics you mentioned,
          > since it constitutes a
          > critical--though provisional--text upon which
          > subsequent attempts (the
          > Gottingen Unternehmen) to reconstitute the OG
          > could be based. For obvious
          > reasons I don't think one could meaningfully
          > speak of the Rahlfs edition as
          > an LXX version used historically by the
          > Orthodox Church--it was only first
          > published in the 1930's, after all. In the
          > modern Greek Church, I doubt
          > whether the OT as a book to itself--whether or
          > not it be one half of a
          > larger work containing the NT such as would
          > correspond with what moderns
          > think of as the Bible--really exists. Instead,
          > what there is of the OT
          > would be portions from various biblical books,
          > typically incorporated into
          > other, liturgical books (e.g. the menaion or
          > triodion) in the context of
          > the particular service (e.g., vespers) at which
          > they would be read. I'm
          > more familiar with contemporary Russian
          > liturgical practice than with
          > Greek, so if anyone has corrections or
          > qualifications of what I have said
          > about scripture use in the Greek Church, please
          > offer them. I give Greek
          > practice as a paradigm because Russian
          > practice, involving translation of
          > the texts in question, presenta a more complex
          > picture.
          >
          > This leads into the historical dimension of
          > your question--if there is one.
          > What would have been known from our Bible to
          > the majority of people in past
          > ages (pre-printing press times) would have been
          > precisely those portions
          > which were read in public worship services.
          > These actually comprised a very
          > limited part of our present-day OT--maybe
          > 1/10th. Fuller collections
          > approaching the scope of our modern OT's would
          > have been a real rarity. The
          > portions of the OT which were read in public
          > worship were collected into a
          > single volume starting in about the 9th century
          > (the "Prophetologion"). If
          > one uses "Bible" in the sense of a collection
          > of biblical writings widely
          > known and read (or at least heard), then this
          > collection could be called
          > the "Bible" of the Orthodox Church of those
          > times (9th - 16th centuries).
          > I've done some study of it, and it too seems to
          > be an eclectic text, not
          > strictly related to any of the text types you
          > mentioned--though the
          > Lucianic would probably predominate. Also, this
          > is likely the OT text whose
          > portions were later (with the advent of the
          > printing press) incorporated
          > into the liturgical books I mentioned above.
          >
          > I'm sorry I can't give a clearer answer: maybe
          > someone else can say
          > something more to the point. But I hope this
          > helps. If I have misunderstood
          > your questions, please feel free to point this
          > out and I will try and
          > respond accordingly.
          >
          > Sincerely, James Miller
          >
          > At 04:19 PM 9/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
          > >Does anyone know of a study of the textual
          > characteristics (e.g., OG,
          > >kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the
          > version of the LXX used by the
          > >Orthodox Church?
          > >
          > >Any information would be much appreciated.
          > >
          > >Thanks,
          > >Dick Saley
          > >
          >
          >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >| Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel:
          > 617-495-4239 |
          > >| The Semitic Museum Fax:
          > 617-496-8904 |
          > >| Harvard University
          > saley@... |
          > >| Six Divinity Avenue
          > |
          > >| Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
          > |
          >
          >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >eGroups.com home:
          > http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
          > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
          > communications
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > eGroups.com home:
          > http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
          > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
          > communications
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          =====

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        • welovegod
          There is much to say. Brenton preformed a translation.. crude but enlightening.it was a literal translation. The only reference to this where iI know to get it
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 1, 1999
          • 0 Attachment
            There is much to say. Brenton preformed a
            translation.. crude but enlightening.it was a
            literal translation. The only reference to this
            where iI know to get it is at SOutheastern
            College in Lakekand Forida, but i suspect others
            have a copy.

            I want to talk to the Serbian Orthodox community
            to get their oldest book. I have a hunch they
            have the original.

            Stephen P. O'Leary



            --- james and tatyana miller <jamtat@...>
            wrote:
            > Dr. Saley:
            >
            > Let me first state, in answer to your inquiry,
            > that I do not know of any
            > study of the textual characteristics of the LXX
            > version used by the
            > Orthodox Church. If there were such a study, I
            > would love to read it. If
            > someone from the list can point to one, please
            > do.
            >
            > In lieu of a more positive answer to your
            > question, let me ask some further
            > clarification on your request. At the same time
            > I will point to a few
            > further considerations. Perhaps this will
            > generate a dialogue that could
            > help inform on this and related matters.
            >
            > I want to first ask what you have in mind when
            > you mention the "LXX version
            > of the Orthodox Church"? You could have a
            > certain historical period in
            > mind; or perhaps you are speaking of
            > contemporary times? Additionally, when
            > you mention "LXX version" do you perhaps have
            > in mind a general conception
            > of a book corresponding to modern Bibles, or at
            > least to the OT portion of
            > modern Bibles?
            >
            > There are currently efforts afoot in certain
            > Orthodox circles (in America,
            > so far as I know) to translate an edition of
            > the LXX into English, for
            > example. This group is using Rahlfs' edition, a
            > text which would contain
            > all the textual characteristics you mentioned,
            > since it constitutes a
            > critical--though provisional--text upon which
            > subsequent attempts (the
            > Gottingen Unternehmen) to reconstitute the OG
            > could be based. For obvious
            > reasons I don't think one could meaningfully
            > speak of the Rahlfs edition as
            > an LXX version used historically by the
            > Orthodox Church--it was only first
            > published in the 1930's, after all. In the
            > modern Greek Church, I doubt
            > whether the OT as a book to itself--whether or
            > not it be one half of a
            > larger work containing the NT such as would
            > correspond with what moderns
            > think of as the Bible--really exists. Instead,
            > what there is of the OT
            > would be portions from various biblical books,
            > typically incorporated into
            > other, liturgical books (e.g. the menaion or
            > triodion) in the context of
            > the particular service (e.g., vespers) at which
            > they would be read. I'm
            > more familiar with contemporary Russian
            > liturgical practice than with
            > Greek, so if anyone has corrections or
            > qualifications of what I have said
            > about scripture use in the Greek Church, please
            > offer them. I give Greek
            > practice as a paradigm because Russian
            > practice, involving translation of
            > the texts in question, presenta a more complex
            > picture.
            >
            > This leads into the historical dimension of
            > your question--if there is one.
            > What would have been known from our Bible to
            > the majority of people in past
            > ages (pre-printing press times) would have been
            > precisely those portions
            > which were read in public worship services.
            > These actually comprised a very
            > limited part of our present-day OT--maybe
            > 1/10th. Fuller collections
            > approaching the scope of our modern OT's would
            > have been a real rarity. The
            > portions of the OT which were read in public
            > worship were collected into a
            > single volume starting in about the 9th century
            > (the "Prophetologion"). If
            > one uses "Bible" in the sense of a collection
            > of biblical writings widely
            > known and read (or at least heard), then this
            > collection could be called
            > the "Bible" of the Orthodox Church of those
            > times (9th - 16th centuries).
            > I've done some study of it, and it too seems to
            > be an eclectic text, not
            > strictly related to any of the text types you
            > mentioned--though the
            > Lucianic would probably predominate. Also, this
            > is likely the OT text whose
            > portions were later (with the advent of the
            > printing press) incorporated
            > into the liturgical books I mentioned above.
            >
            > I'm sorry I can't give a clearer answer: maybe
            > someone else can say
            > something more to the point. But I hope this
            > helps. If I have misunderstood
            > your questions, please feel free to point this
            > out and I will try and
            > respond accordingly.
            >
            > Sincerely, James Miller
            >
            > At 04:19 PM 9/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
            > >Does anyone know of a study of the textual
            > characteristics (e.g., OG,
            > >kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the
            > version of the LXX used by the
            > >Orthodox Church?
            > >
            > >Any information would be much appreciated.
            > >
            > >Thanks,
            > >Dick Saley
            > >
            >
            >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >| Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel:
            > 617-495-4239 |
            > >| The Semitic Museum Fax:
            > 617-496-8904 |
            > >| Harvard University
            > saley@... |
            > >| Six Divinity Avenue
            > |
            > >| Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
            > |
            >
            >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > >
            >
            >------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > >eGroups.com home:
            > http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
            > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
            > communications
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > eGroups.com home:
            > http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
            > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
            > communications
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            =====

            __________________________________________________
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          • welovegod
            There is much to say. Brenton performed a translation.. crude but enlightening. It was a literal translation. The only reference copy to this that I know about
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 1, 1999
            • 0 Attachment
              There is much to say. Brenton performed a
              translation.. crude but enlightening. It was a
              literal translation. The only reference copy to
              this that I know about is at SouthEastern College
              in Lakekand Forida, but I suspect others have a
              copy.

              I want to talk to the Serbian Orthodox community
              to get their oldest book. I have a hunch they
              have the original.

              Stephen P. O'Leary



              --- james and tatyana miller <jamtat@...>
              wrote:
              > Dr. Saley:
              >
              > Let me first state, in answer to your inquiry,
              > that I do not know of any
              > study of the textual characteristics of the LXX
              > version used by the
              > Orthodox Church. If there were such a study, I
              > would love to read it. If
              > someone from the list can point to one, please
              > do.
              >
              > In lieu of a more positive answer to your
              > question, let me ask some further
              > clarification on your request. At the same time
              > I will point to a few
              > further considerations. Perhaps this will
              > generate a dialogue that could
              > help inform on this and related matters.
              >
              > I want to first ask what you have in mind when
              > you mention the "LXX version
              > of the Orthodox Church"? You could have a
              > certain historical period in
              > mind; or perhaps you are speaking of
              > contemporary times? Additionally, when
              > you mention "LXX version" do you perhaps have
              > in mind a general conception
              > of a book corresponding to modern Bibles, or at
              > least to the OT portion of
              > modern Bibles?
              >
              > There are currently efforts afoot in certain
              > Orthodox circles (in America,
              > so far as I know) to translate an edition of
              > the LXX into English, for
              > example. This group is using Rahlfs' edition, a
              > text which would contain
              > all the textual characteristics you mentioned,
              > since it constitutes a
              > critical--though provisional--text upon which
              > subsequent attempts (the
              > Gottingen Unternehmen) to reconstitute the OG
              > could be based. For obvious
              > reasons I don't think one could meaningfully
              > speak of the Rahlfs edition as
              > an LXX version used historically by the
              > Orthodox Church--it was only first
              > published in the 1930's, after all. In the
              > modern Greek Church, I doubt
              > whether the OT as a book to itself--whether or
              > not it be one half of a
              > larger work containing the NT such as would
              > correspond with what moderns
              > think of as the Bible--really exists. Instead,
              > what there is of the OT
              > would be portions from various biblical books,
              > typically incorporated into
              > other, liturgical books (e.g. the menaion or
              > triodion) in the context of
              > the particular service (e.g., vespers) at which
              > they would be read. I'm
              > more familiar with contemporary Russian
              > liturgical practice than with
              > Greek, so if anyone has corrections or
              > qualifications of what I have said
              > about scripture use in the Greek Church, please
              > offer them. I give Greek
              > practice as a paradigm because Russian
              > practice, involving translation of
              > the texts in question, presenta a more complex
              > picture.
              >
              > This leads into the historical dimension of
              > your question--if there is one.
              > What would have been known from our Bible to
              > the majority of people in past
              > ages (pre-printing press times) would have been
              > precisely those portions
              > which were read in public worship services.
              > These actually comprised a very
              > limited part of our present-day OT--maybe
              > 1/10th. Fuller collections
              > approaching the scope of our modern OT's would
              > have been a real rarity. The
              > portions of the OT which were read in public
              > worship were collected into a
              > single volume starting in about the 9th century
              > (the "Prophetologion"). If
              > one uses "Bible" in the sense of a collection
              > of biblical writings widely
              > known and read (or at least heard), then this
              > collection could be called
              > the "Bible" of the Orthodox Church of those
              > times (9th - 16th centuries).
              > I've done some study of it, and it too seems to
              > be an eclectic text, not
              > strictly related to any of the text types you
              > mentioned--though the
              > Lucianic would probably predominate. Also, this
              > is likely the OT text whose
              > portions were later (with the advent of the
              > printing press) incorporated
              > into the liturgical books I mentioned above.
              >
              > I'm sorry I can't give a clearer answer: maybe
              > someone else can say
              > something more to the point. But I hope this
              > helps. If I have misunderstood
              > your questions, please feel free to point this
              > out and I will try and
              > respond accordingly.
              >
              > Sincerely, James Miller
              >
              > At 04:19 PM 9/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
              > >Does anyone know of a study of the textual
              > characteristics (e.g., OG,
              > >kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the
              > version of the LXX used by the
              > >Orthodox Church?
              > >
              > >Any information would be much appreciated.
              > >
              > >Thanks,
              > >Dick Saley
              > >
              >
              >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >| Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel:
              > 617-495-4239 |
              > >| The Semitic Museum Fax:
              > 617-496-8904 |
              > >| Harvard University
              > saley@... |
              > >| Six Divinity Avenue
              > |
              > >| Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
              > |
              >
              >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              >
              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > >eGroups.com home:
              > http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
              > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
              > communications
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > eGroups.com home:
              > http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
              > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
              > communications
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              =====

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
            • Joseph Crea
              Hello Stephen! ... CREA For what it s worth, Brenton s translation has been reprinted by Hendrickson Publishers (ISBN 0-913573-44-2) and retails for $44.95.
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 1, 1999
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Stephen!

                At 06:53 PM 10/1/99 -0700, Stephen P. O'Leary wrote:

                >O'Leary:
                >There is much to say. Brenton performed a
                >translation.. crude but enlightening. It was a
                >literal translation. The only reference copy to
                >this that I know about is at SouthEastern College
                >in Lakekand Forida, but I suspect others have a
                >copy.

                CREA
                For what it's worth, Brenton's translation has been reprinted by
                Hendrickson Publishers (ISBN 0-913573-44-2) and retails for $44.95.
                Christian Book Distributors (<http://www.christianbook.com>) carries it
                (catalog #73442) at the discounted price of $24.95. Hope that this helps.
                BTW, any particular reason why you sent 3 copies of this to the list?


                With Mettaa,

                Joseph Crea
                <Joseph.Crea@...>
              • welovegod
                I corrected my spelling errors. The second one said Serbian rather than Sernian. (though i expect the church migrated north, and the actual syrians were the
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 1, 1999
                • 0 Attachment
                  I corrected my spelling errors.

                  The second one said Serbian rather than Sernian.
                  (though i expect the church migrated north, and
                  the actual syrians were the Greek Orthodox and
                  now the Serbian.

                  The third fixed up some spelling errors.


                  --- Joseph Crea <Joseph.Crea@...>
                  wrote:
                  > Hello Stephen!
                  >
                  > At 06:53 PM 10/1/99 -0700, Stephen P. O'Leary
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > >O'Leary:
                  > >There is much to say. Brenton performed a
                  > >translation.. crude but enlightening. It was a
                  > >literal translation. The only reference copy
                  > to
                  > >this that I know about is at SouthEastern
                  > College
                  > >in Lakekand Forida, but I suspect others have
                  > a
                  > >copy.
                  >
                  > CREA
                  > For what it's worth, Brenton's translation
                  > has been reprinted by
                  > Hendrickson Publishers (ISBN 0-913573-44-2)
                  > and retails for $44.95.
                  > Christian Book Distributors
                  > (<http://www.christianbook.com>) carries it
                  > (catalog #73442) at the discounted price of
                  > $24.95. Hope that this helps.
                  > BTW, any particular reason why you sent 3
                  > copies of this to the list?
                  >
                  >
                  > With Mettaa,
                  >
                  > Joseph Crea
                  > <Joseph.Crea@...>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                  > Start with up to 150 Points for joining!
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                  >
                  >
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                • Richard J Saley
                  Dear James Miller, Thanks for your lengthy and informative response to my query about the textual characteristics of the LXX of the Orthodox Church. In answer
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 4, 1999
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear James Miller,

                    Thanks for your lengthy and informative response to my query about the
                    textual characteristics of the LXX of the Orthodox Church. In answer to
                    your question, I was assuming--incorrectly as I am finding out--that the
                    LXX of the Orthodox Chruch is a monolithic whole and that that presumed
                    standard text was the basis for the Orthodox Study Bible Old Testament
                    Project described in www.lxx.org. Do I understand you correctly that that
                    translation project is based on Rhalfs?

                    Cheers,
                    Dick Saley



                    At 12:09 PM 10/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
                    >Dr. Saley:
                    >
                    >Let me first state, in answer to your inquiry, that I do not know of any
                    >study of the textual characteristics of the LXX version used by the
                    >Orthodox Church. If there were such a study, I would love to read it. If
                    >someone from the list can point to one, please do.
                    >
                    >In lieu of a more positive answer to your question, let me ask some further
                    >clarification on your request. At the same time I will point to a few
                    >further considerations. Perhaps this will generate a dialogue that could
                    >help inform on this and related matters.
                    >
                    >I want to first ask what you have in mind when you mention the "LXX version
                    >of the Orthodox Church"? You could have a certain historical period in
                    >mind; or perhaps you are speaking of contemporary times? Additionally, when
                    >you mention "LXX version" do you perhaps have in mind a general conception
                    >of a book corresponding to modern Bibles, or at least to the OT portion of
                    >modern Bibles?
                    >
                    >There are currently efforts afoot in certain Orthodox circles (in America,
                    >so far as I know) to translate an edition of the LXX into English, for
                    >example. This group is using Rahlfs' edition, a text which would contain
                    >all the textual characteristics you mentioned, since it constitutes a
                    >critical--though provisional--text upon which subsequent attempts (the
                    >Gottingen Unternehmen) to reconstitute the OG could be based. For obvious
                    >reasons I don't think one could meaningfully speak of the Rahlfs edition as
                    >an LXX version used historically by the Orthodox Church--it was only first
                    >published in the 1930's, after all. In the modern Greek Church, I doubt
                    >whether the OT as a book to itself--whether or not it be one half of a
                    >larger work containing the NT such as would correspond with what moderns
                    >think of as the Bible--really exists. Instead, what there is of the OT
                    >would be portions from various biblical books, typically incorporated into
                    >other, liturgical books (e.g. the menaion or triodion) in the context of
                    >the particular service (e.g., vespers) at which they would be read. I'm
                    >more familiar with contemporary Russian liturgical practice than with
                    >Greek, so if anyone has corrections or qualifications of what I have said
                    >about scripture use in the Greek Church, please offer them. I give Greek
                    >practice as a paradigm because Russian practice, involving translation of
                    >the texts in question, presenta a more complex picture.
                    >
                    >This leads into the historical dimension of your question--if there is one.
                    >What would have been known from our Bible to the majority of people in past
                    >ages (pre-printing press times) would have been precisely those portions
                    >which were read in public worship services. These actually comprised a very
                    >limited part of our present-day OT--maybe 1/10th. Fuller collections
                    >approaching the scope of our modern OT's would have been a real rarity. The
                    >portions of the OT which were read in public worship were collected into a
                    >single volume starting in about the 9th century (the "Prophetologion"). If
                    >one uses "Bible" in the sense of a collection of biblical writings widely
                    >known and read (or at least heard), then this collection could be called
                    >the "Bible" of the Orthodox Church of those times (9th - 16th centuries).
                    >I've done some study of it, and it too seems to be an eclectic text, not
                    >strictly related to any of the text types you mentioned--though the
                    >Lucianic would probably predominate. Also, this is likely the OT text whose
                    >portions were later (with the advent of the printing press) incorporated
                    >into the liturgical books I mentioned above.
                    >
                    >I'm sorry I can't give a clearer answer: maybe someone else can say
                    >something more to the point. But I hope this helps. If I have misunderstood
                    >your questions, please feel free to point this out and I will try and
                    >respond accordingly.
                    >
                    >Sincerely, James Miller
                    >
                    >At 04:19 PM 9/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
                    >>Does anyone know of a study of the textual characteristics (e.g., OG,
                    >>kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the version of the LXX used by the
                    >>Orthodox Church?
                    >>
                    >>Any information would be much appreciated.
                    >>
                    >>Thanks,
                    >>Dick Saley
                    >>
                    >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    ---
                    >>| Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239 |
                    >>| The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904 |
                    >>| Harvard University saley@... |
                    >>| Six Divinity Avenue |
                    >>| Cambridge, MA 02138 USA |
                    >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    ---
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                    >>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                    >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                    >
                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239 |
                    | The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904 |
                    | Harvard University saley@... |
                    | Six Divinity Avenue |
                    | Cambridge, MA 02138 USA |
                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  • welovegod
                    My expectations is this. The Greek Septuagint is called LXX, L for the name of the Lord(50), and XX the roman numerals for ecah hand, five points describe it:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 4, 1999
                    • 0 Attachment
                      My expectations is this. The Greek Septuagint is
                      called LXX, L for the name of the Lord(50), and XX the
                      roman numerals for ecah hand, five points describe it:
                      4 fingers and a thumb. SO LXX translated literately
                      means Lord's hands, colloquily described in Exodus
                      30'2 as written with finger of G-d.
                      If we believe the scriptures(i expect that is why
                      most of us are here today), then two things are known:

                      (1) The tablets/books given by the Lord to
                      Moses(Moshe) are lost. Are they in possession of some
                      church body, forgotten or concealed?

                      (2) The Septuagint historically was written down in
                      ~250 BC by the Greeks with asitance from the king of
                      ISrael or their preistly leadership (likely the same)

                      In any case, these artifacts might have be held
                      through the ages.. I suspect them or at least on eof
                      them to be the earliest/oldest transciption, and to be
                      in possession of the old Greek Orthodox church, which
                      moved to Serbia. That is my statement of my concern.
                      Christian Churches there date to the earliest period
                      of our known world of that era.

                      ALso is the Dead Sea Scrolls, at essenes, whihc
                      translated properly mean essence, the ssence of our
                      existence is what the Lord God is, isn't it?

                      I aintain a belief that the first two books weer
                      written doen from an oral history delivered unto
                      Moses, but alas, the meaning escaped his understanding
                      and he failed miserably in the interpretation or that
                      of his successors.

                      Feel fre to dicuss tehse matters with me, for i seek
                      only the truth of things.

                      Steve O'Leary

                      --- Richard J Saley <saley@...> wrote:
                      > Dear James Miller,
                      >
                      > Thanks for your lengthy and informative response to
                      > my query about the
                      > textual characteristics of the LXX of the Orthodox
                      > Church. In answer to
                      > your question, I was assuming--incorrectly as I am
                      > finding out--that the
                      > LXX of the Orthodox Chruch is a monolithic whole and
                      > that that presumed
                      > standard text was the basis for the Orthodox Study
                      > Bible Old Testament
                      > Project described in www.lxx.org. Do I understand
                      > you correctly that that
                      > translation project is based on Rhalfs?
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Dick Saley
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > At 12:09 PM 10/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
                      > >Dr. Saley:
                      > >
                      > >Let me first state, in answer to your inquiry, that
                      > I do not know of any
                      > >study of the textual characteristics of the LXX
                      > version used by the
                      > >Orthodox Church. If there were such a study, I
                      > would love to read it. If
                      > >someone from the list can point to one, please do.
                      > >
                      > >In lieu of a more positive answer to your question,
                      > let me ask some further
                      > >clarification on your request. At the same time I
                      > will point to a few
                      > >further considerations. Perhaps this will generate
                      > a dialogue that could
                      > >help inform on this and related matters.
                      > >
                      > >I want to first ask what you have in mind when you
                      > mention the "LXX version
                      > >of the Orthodox Church"? You could have a certain
                      > historical period in
                      > >mind; or perhaps you are speaking of contemporary
                      > times? Additionally, when
                      > >you mention "LXX version" do you perhaps have in
                      > mind a general conception
                      > >of a book corresponding to modern Bibles, or at
                      > least to the OT portion of
                      > >modern Bibles?
                      > >
                      > >There are currently efforts afoot in certain
                      > Orthodox circles (in America,
                      > >so far as I know) to translate an edition of the
                      > LXX into English, for
                      > >example. This group is using Rahlfs' edition, a
                      > text which would contain
                      > >all the textual characteristics you mentioned,
                      > since it constitutes a
                      > >critical--though provisional--text upon which
                      > subsequent attempts (the
                      > >Gottingen Unternehmen) to reconstitute the OG could
                      > be based. For obvious
                      > >reasons I don't think one could meaningfully speak
                      > of the Rahlfs edition as
                      > >an LXX version used historically by the Orthodox
                      > Church--it was only first
                      > >published in the 1930's, after all. In the modern
                      > Greek Church, I doubt
                      > >whether the OT as a book to itself--whether or not
                      > it be one half of a
                      > >larger work containing the NT such as would
                      > correspond with what moderns
                      > >think of as the Bible--really exists. Instead, what
                      > there is of the OT
                      > >would be portions from various biblical books,
                      > typically incorporated into
                      > >other, liturgical books (e.g. the menaion or
                      > triodion) in the context of
                      > >the particular service (e.g., vespers) at which
                      > they would be read. I'm
                      > >more familiar with contemporary Russian liturgical
                      > practice than with
                      > >Greek, so if anyone has corrections or
                      > qualifications of what I have said
                      > >about scripture use in the Greek Church, please
                      > offer them. I give Greek
                      > >practice as a paradigm because Russian practice,
                      > involving translation of
                      > >the texts in question, presenta a more complex
                      > picture.
                      > >
                      > >This leads into the historical dimension of your
                      > question--if there is one.
                      > >What would have been known from our Bible to the
                      > majority of people in past
                      > >ages (pre-printing press times) would have been
                      > precisely those portions
                      > >which were read in public worship services. These
                      > actually comprised a very
                      > >limited part of our present-day OT--maybe 1/10th.
                      > Fuller collections
                      > >approaching the scope of our modern OT's would have
                      > been a real rarity. The
                      > >portions of the OT which were read in public
                      > worship were collected into a
                      > >single volume starting in about the 9th century
                      > (the "Prophetologion"). If
                      > >one uses "Bible" in the sense of a collection of
                      > biblical writings widely
                      > >known and read (or at least heard), then this
                      > collection could be called
                      > >the "Bible" of the Orthodox Church of those times
                      > (9th - 16th centuries).
                      > >I've done some study of it, and it too seems to be
                      > an eclectic text, not
                      > >strictly related to any of the text types you
                      > mentioned--though the
                      > >Lucianic would probably predominate. Also, this is
                      > likely the OT text whose
                      > >portions were later (with the advent of the
                      > printing press) incorporated
                      > >into the liturgical books I mentioned above.
                      > >
                      > >I'm sorry I can't give a clearer answer: maybe
                      > someone else can say
                      > >something more to the point. But I hope this helps.
                      > If I have misunderstood
                      > >your questions, please feel free to point this out
                      > and I will try and
                      > >respond accordingly.
                      > >
                      > >Sincerely, James Miller
                      > >
                      > >At 04:19 PM 9/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
                      > >>Does anyone know of a study of the textual
                      > characteristics (e.g., OG,
                      > >>kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the version
                      > of the LXX used by the
                      > >>Orthodox Church?
                      > >>
                      > >>Any information would be much appreciated.
                      > >>
                      > >>Thanks,
                      > >>Dick Saley
                      > >>
                      >
                      >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > ---
                      > >>| Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239
                      > |
                      > >>| The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904
                      > |
                      > >>| Harvard University
                      > saley@... |
                      > >>| Six Divinity Avenue
                      > |
                      > >>| Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
                      > |
                      >
                      >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > ---
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      >
                      >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > >>
                      > >>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                      > >>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                      > communications
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      >
                      >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                      > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                      > communications
                      > >
                      >
                      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > | Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239
                      > |
                      > | The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904
                      > |
                      > | Harvard University
                      > saley@... |
                      > | Six Divinity Avenue
                      > |
                      > | Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
                      > |
                      >
                      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                      > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                      > communications
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      =====

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
                    • Roger L.. Kimmel
                      I believe this is enough. Matters of faith and personal opinion do not belong in these discussions, properly scholarly in content. I suggest some remedial
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 4, 1999
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I believe this is enough. Matters of faith and personal opinion do not
                        belong in these discussions, properly scholarly in content. I suggest some
                        remedial English for this individual.

                        Roger L. Kimmel, M.D.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: welovegod <sol_seeker@...>
                        To: <lxx@egroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 9:11 PM
                        Subject: [lxx] Re: LXX of the Orthodox Church


                        > My expectations is this. The Greek Septuagint is
                        > called LXX, L for the name of the Lord(50), and XX the
                        > roman numerals for ecah hand, five points describe it:
                        > 4 fingers and a thumb. SO LXX translated literately
                        > means Lord's hands, colloquily described in Exodus
                        > 30'2 as written with finger of G-d.
                        > If we believe the scriptures(i expect that is why
                        > most of us are here today), then two things are known:
                        >
                        > (1) The tablets/books given by the Lord to
                        > Moses(Moshe) are lost. Are they in possession of some
                        > church body, forgotten or concealed?
                        >
                        > (2) The Septuagint historically was written down in
                        > ~250 BC by the Greeks with asitance from the king of
                        > ISrael or their preistly leadership (likely the same)
                        >
                        > In any case, these artifacts might have be held
                        > through the ages.. I suspect them or at least on eof
                        > them to be the earliest/oldest transciption, and to be
                        > in possession of the old Greek Orthodox church, which
                        > moved to Serbia. That is my statement of my concern.
                        > Christian Churches there date to the earliest period
                        > of our known world of that era.
                        >
                        > ALso is the Dead Sea Scrolls, at essenes, whihc
                        > translated properly mean essence, the ssence of our
                        > existence is what the Lord God is, isn't it?
                        >
                        > I aintain a belief that the first two books weer
                        > written doen from an oral history delivered unto
                        > Moses, but alas, the meaning escaped his understanding
                        > and he failed miserably in the interpretation or that
                        > of his successors.
                        >
                        > Feel fre to dicuss tehse matters with me, for i seek
                        > only the truth of things.
                        >
                        > Steve O'Leary
                        >
                        > --- Richard J Saley <saley@...> wrote:
                        > > Dear James Miller,
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for your lengthy and informative response to
                        > > my query about the
                        > > textual characteristics of the LXX of the Orthodox
                        > > Church. In answer to
                        > > your question, I was assuming--incorrectly as I am
                        > > finding out--that the
                        > > LXX of the Orthodox Chruch is a monolithic whole and
                        > > that that presumed
                        > > standard text was the basis for the Orthodox Study
                        > > Bible Old Testament
                        > > Project described in www.lxx.org. Do I understand
                        > > you correctly that that
                        > > translation project is based on Rhalfs?
                        > >
                        > > Cheers,
                        > > Dick Saley
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > At 12:09 PM 10/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
                        > > >Dr. Saley:
                        > > >
                        > > >Let me first state, in answer to your inquiry, that
                        > > I do not know of any
                        > > >study of the textual characteristics of the LXX
                        > > version used by the
                        > > >Orthodox Church. If there were such a study, I
                        > > would love to read it. If
                        > > >someone from the list can point to one, please do.
                        > > >
                        > > >In lieu of a more positive answer to your question,
                        > > let me ask some further
                        > > >clarification on your request. At the same time I
                        > > will point to a few
                        > > >further considerations. Perhaps this will generate
                        > > a dialogue that could
                        > > >help inform on this and related matters.
                        > > >
                        > > >I want to first ask what you have in mind when you
                        > > mention the "LXX version
                        > > >of the Orthodox Church"? You could have a certain
                        > > historical period in
                        > > >mind; or perhaps you are speaking of contemporary
                        > > times? Additionally, when
                        > > >you mention "LXX version" do you perhaps have in
                        > > mind a general conception
                        > > >of a book corresponding to modern Bibles, or at
                        > > least to the OT portion of
                        > > >modern Bibles?
                        > > >
                        > > >There are currently efforts afoot in certain
                        > > Orthodox circles (in America,
                        > > >so far as I know) to translate an edition of the
                        > > LXX into English, for
                        > > >example. This group is using Rahlfs' edition, a
                        > > text which would contain
                        > > >all the textual characteristics you mentioned,
                        > > since it constitutes a
                        > > >critical--though provisional--text upon which
                        > > subsequent attempts (the
                        > > >Gottingen Unternehmen) to reconstitute the OG could
                        > > be based. For obvious
                        > > >reasons I don't think one could meaningfully speak
                        > > of the Rahlfs edition as
                        > > >an LXX version used historically by the Orthodox
                        > > Church--it was only first
                        > > >published in the 1930's, after all. In the modern
                        > > Greek Church, I doubt
                        > > >whether the OT as a book to itself--whether or not
                        > > it be one half of a
                        > > >larger work containing the NT such as would
                        > > correspond with what moderns
                        > > >think of as the Bible--really exists. Instead, what
                        > > there is of the OT
                        > > >would be portions from various biblical books,
                        > > typically incorporated into
                        > > >other, liturgical books (e.g. the menaion or
                        > > triodion) in the context of
                        > > >the particular service (e.g., vespers) at which
                        > > they would be read. I'm
                        > > >more familiar with contemporary Russian liturgical
                        > > practice than with
                        > > >Greek, so if anyone has corrections or
                        > > qualifications of what I have said
                        > > >about scripture use in the Greek Church, please
                        > > offer them. I give Greek
                        > > >practice as a paradigm because Russian practice,
                        > > involving translation of
                        > > >the texts in question, presenta a more complex
                        > > picture.
                        > > >
                        > > >This leads into the historical dimension of your
                        > > question--if there is one.
                        > > >What would have been known from our Bible to the
                        > > majority of people in past
                        > > >ages (pre-printing press times) would have been
                        > > precisely those portions
                        > > >which were read in public worship services. These
                        > > actually comprised a very
                        > > >limited part of our present-day OT--maybe 1/10th.
                        > > Fuller collections
                        > > >approaching the scope of our modern OT's would have
                        > > been a real rarity. The
                        > > >portions of the OT which were read in public
                        > > worship were collected into a
                        > > >single volume starting in about the 9th century
                        > > (the "Prophetologion"). If
                        > > >one uses "Bible" in the sense of a collection of
                        > > biblical writings widely
                        > > >known and read (or at least heard), then this
                        > > collection could be called
                        > > >the "Bible" of the Orthodox Church of those times
                        > > (9th - 16th centuries).
                        > > >I've done some study of it, and it too seems to be
                        > > an eclectic text, not
                        > > >strictly related to any of the text types you
                        > > mentioned--though the
                        > > >Lucianic would probably predominate. Also, this is
                        > > likely the OT text whose
                        > > >portions were later (with the advent of the
                        > > printing press) incorporated
                        > > >into the liturgical books I mentioned above.
                        > > >
                        > > >I'm sorry I can't give a clearer answer: maybe
                        > > someone else can say
                        > > >something more to the point. But I hope this helps.
                        > > If I have misunderstood
                        > > >your questions, please feel free to point this out
                        > > and I will try and
                        > > >respond accordingly.
                        > > >
                        > > >Sincerely, James Miller
                        > > >
                        > > >At 04:19 PM 9/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
                        > > >>Does anyone know of a study of the textual
                        > > characteristics (e.g., OG,
                        > > >>kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the version
                        > > of the LXX used by the
                        > > >>Orthodox Church?
                        > > >>
                        > > >>Any information would be much appreciated.
                        > > >>
                        > > >>Thanks,
                        > > >>Dick Saley
                        > > >>
                        > >
                        >
                        >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > ---
                        > > >>| Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239
                        > > |
                        > > >>| The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904
                        > > |
                        > > >>| Harvard University
                        > > saley@... |
                        > > >>| Six Divinity Avenue
                        > > |
                        > > >>| Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
                        > > |
                        > >
                        >
                        >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > ---
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > >
                        > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > >>
                        > > >>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                        > > >>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                        > > communications
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                        > > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                        > > communications
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        ---
                        > > | Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239
                        > > |
                        > > | The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904
                        > > |
                        > > | Harvard University
                        > > saley@... |
                        > > | Six Divinity Avenue
                        > > |
                        > > | Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
                        > > |
                        > >
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        ---
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                        > > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                        > > communications
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > =====
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                        > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • james miller
                        ... Dear Dr. Kimmel: Thanks for your feedback. Joel and I will be discussing the matter and will act accordingly. James Miller, moderator PS A response will be
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 5, 1999
                        • 0 Attachment
                          At 09:49 PM 10/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
                          >I believe this is enough. Matters of faith and personal opinion do not
                          >belong in these discussions, properly scholarly in content. I suggest some
                          >remedial English for this individual.
                          >
                          >Roger L. Kimmel, M.D.
                          >
                          Dear Dr. Kimmel:

                          Thanks for your feedback. Joel and I will be discussing the matter and will
                          act accordingly.

                          James Miller, moderator

                          PS A response will be coming soon to Dr. Saley's last inquiry. My apologies
                          for the delay
                        • welovegod
                          Mr Kimmel, You will not receive any respect from me in your blasphemous commentary. If I needed to speak clearly, then I expect a cognisant reply. Writing
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 5, 1999
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                            Mr Kimmel,

                            You will not receive any respect from me in your
                            blasphemous commentary. If I needed to speak clearly,
                            then I expect a cognisant reply.

                            Writing after 30-40 hours of continous labor may make
                            spelling mistakes slip by, however it DOES NOT change
                            the meaning. I fully admit my failures in this regard,
                            for it does speak less of my mind to write with such
                            error of spelling.

                            The scribes that wrote the bible, themsleves made
                            errors suh as this, it showed that they were men, and
                            only inpired by the Lord. Your inability to comprehend
                            meaning or your acrimanation in delivering retorts of
                            disputable character, lies clearly within your own
                            ignorance.

                            Should I have placed this message that I wrote the
                            other nightin a spelling checker, the words and
                            characters would be properly aligned and sequenced.

                            I have no respect for a short sighted man who offers
                            no practical advice in this regard, but nly
                            acriminations.

                            You, sir, have no business being here.

                            Stephen Paul O'Leary


                            --- "Roger L.. Kimmel" <rlkimmel@...> wrote:
                            > I believe this is enough. Matters of faith and
                            > personal opinion do not
                            > belong in these discussions, properly scholarly in
                            > content. I suggest some
                            > remedial English for this individual.
                            >
                            > Roger L. Kimmel, M.D.
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: welovegod <sol_seeker@...>
                            > To: <lxx@egroups.com>
                            > Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 9:11 PM
                            > Subject: [lxx] Re: LXX of the Orthodox Church
                            >
                            >
                            > > My expectations is this. The Greek Septuagint is
                            > > called LXX, L for the name of the Lord(50), and XX
                            > the
                            > > roman numerals for ecah hand, five points describe
                            > it:
                            > > 4 fingers and a thumb. SO LXX translated
                            > literately
                            > > means Lord's hands, colloquily described in
                            > Exodus
                            > > 30'2 as written with finger of G-d.
                            > > If we believe the scriptures(i expect that is why
                            > > most of us are here today), then two things are
                            > known:
                            > >
                            > > (1) The tablets/books given by the Lord to
                            > > Moses(Moshe) are lost. Are they in possession of
                            > some
                            > > church body, forgotten or concealed?
                            > >
                            > > (2) The Septuagint historically was written down
                            > in
                            > > ~250 BC by the Greeks with asitance from the king
                            > of
                            > > ISrael or their preistly leadership (likely the
                            > same)
                            > >
                            > > In any case, these artifacts might have be held
                            > > through the ages.. I suspect them or at least on
                            > eof
                            > > them to be the earliest/oldest transciption, and
                            > to be
                            > > in possession of the old Greek Orthodox church,
                            > which
                            > > moved to Serbia. That is my statement of my
                            > concern.
                            > > Christian Churches there date to the earliest
                            > period
                            > > of our known world of that era.
                            > >
                            > > ALso is the Dead Sea Scrolls, at essenes, whihc
                            > > translated properly mean essence, the ssence of
                            > our
                            > > existence is what the Lord God is, isn't it?
                            > >
                            > > I aintain a belief that the first two books weer
                            > > written doen from an oral history delivered unto
                            > > Moses, but alas, the meaning escaped his
                            > understanding
                            > > and he failed miserably in the interpretation or
                            > that
                            > > of his successors.
                            > >
                            > > Feel fre to dicuss tehse matters with me, for i
                            > seek
                            > > only the truth of things.
                            > >
                            > > Steve O'Leary
                            > >
                            > > --- Richard J Saley <saley@...> wrote:
                            > > > Dear James Miller,
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks for your lengthy and informative response
                            > to
                            > > > my query about the
                            > > > textual characteristics of the LXX of the
                            > Orthodox
                            > > > Church. In answer to
                            > > > your question, I was assuming--incorrectly as I
                            > am
                            > > > finding out--that the
                            > > > LXX of the Orthodox Chruch is a monolithic whole
                            > and
                            > > > that that presumed
                            > > > standard text was the basis for the Orthodox
                            > Study
                            > > > Bible Old Testament
                            > > > Project described in www.lxx.org. Do I
                            > understand
                            > > > you correctly that that
                            > > > translation project is based on Rhalfs?
                            > > >
                            > > > Cheers,
                            > > > Dick Saley
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > At 12:09 PM 10/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
                            > > > >Dr. Saley:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Let me first state, in answer to your inquiry,
                            > that
                            > > > I do not know of any
                            > > > >study of the textual characteristics of the LXX
                            > > > version used by the
                            > > > >Orthodox Church. If there were such a study, I
                            > > > would love to read it. If
                            > > > >someone from the list can point to one, please
                            > do.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >In lieu of a more positive answer to your
                            > question,
                            > > > let me ask some further
                            > > > >clarification on your request. At the same time
                            > I
                            > > > will point to a few
                            > > > >further considerations. Perhaps this will
                            > generate
                            > > > a dialogue that could
                            > > > >help inform on this and related matters.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >I want to first ask what you have in mind when
                            > you
                            > > > mention the "LXX version
                            > > > >of the Orthodox Church"? You could have a
                            > certain
                            > > > historical period in
                            > > > >mind; or perhaps you are speaking of
                            > contemporary
                            > > > times? Additionally, when
                            > > > >you mention "LXX version" do you perhaps have
                            > in
                            > > > mind a general conception
                            > > > >of a book corresponding to modern Bibles, or at
                            > > > least to the OT portion of
                            > > > >modern Bibles?
                            > > > >
                            > > > >There are currently efforts afoot in certain
                            > > > Orthodox circles (in America,
                            > > > >so far as I know) to translate an edition of
                            > the
                            > > > LXX into English, for
                            > > > >example. This group is using Rahlfs' edition, a
                            > > > text which would contain
                            > > > >all the textual characteristics you mentioned,
                            > > > since it constitutes a
                            > > > >critical--though provisional--text upon which
                            > > > subsequent attempts (the
                            > > > >Gottingen Unternehmen) to reconstitute the OG
                            > could
                            > > > be based. For obvious
                            > > > >reasons I don't think one could meaningfully
                            > speak
                            > > > of the Rahlfs edition as
                            > > > >an LXX version used historically by the
                            > Orthodox
                            > > > Church--it was only first
                            > > > >published in the 1930's, after all. In the
                            > modern
                            > > > Greek Church, I doubt
                            > > > >whether the OT as a book to itself--whether or
                            > not
                            > > > it be one half of a
                            > > > >larger work containing the NT such as would
                            > > > correspond with what moderns
                            > > > >think of as the Bible--really exists. Instead,
                            > what
                            > > > there is of the OT
                            > > > >would be portions from various biblical books,
                            > > > typically incorporated into
                            > > > >other, liturgical books (e.g. the menaion or
                            > > > triodion) in the context of
                            > > > >the particular service (e.g., vespers) at which
                            > > > they would be read. I'm
                            > > > >more familiar with contemporary Russian
                            > liturgical
                            > > > practice than with
                            > > > >Greek, so if anyone has corrections or
                            > > > qualifications of what I have said
                            > > > >about scripture use in the Greek Church, please
                            > > > offer them. I give Greek
                            > > > >practice as a paradigm because Russian
                            > practice,
                            > > > involving translation of
                            > > > >the texts in question, presenta a more complex
                            > > > picture.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >This leads into the historical dimension of
                            > your
                            > > > question--if there is one.
                            > > > >What would have been known from our Bible to
                            > the
                            > > > majority of people in past
                            > > > >ages (pre-printing press times) would have been
                            > > > precisely those portions
                            > > > >which were read in public worship services.
                            > These
                            > > > actually comprised a very
                            > > > >limited part of our present-day OT--maybe
                            > 1/10th.
                            > > > Fuller collections
                            > > > >approaching the scope of our modern OT's would
                            > have
                            > > > been a real rarity. The
                            > > > >portions of the OT which were read in public
                            > > > worship were collected into a
                            > > > >single volume starting in about the 9th century
                            > > > (the "Prophetologion"). If
                            > > > >one uses "Bible" in the sense of a collection
                            > of
                            > > > biblical writings widely
                            > > > >known and read (or at least heard), then this
                            > > > collection could be called
                            > > > >the "Bible" of the Orthodox Church of those
                            > times
                            > > > (9th - 16th centuries).
                            > > > >I've done some study of it, and it too seems to
                            > be
                            > > > an eclectic text, not
                            > > > >strictly related to any of the text types you
                            > > > mentioned--though the
                            > > > >Lucianic would probably predominate. Also, this
                            > is
                            > > > likely the OT text whose
                            > > > >portions were later (with the advent of the
                            > > > printing press) incorporated
                            > > > >into the liturgical books I mentioned above.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >I'm sorry I can't give a clearer answer: maybe
                            > > > someone else can say
                            > > > >something more to the point. But I hope this
                            > helps.
                            > > > If I have misunderstood
                            > > > >your questions, please feel free to point this
                            > out
                            > > > and I will try and
                            > > > >respond accordingly.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Sincerely, James Miller
                            > > > >
                            > > > >At 04:19 PM 9/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
                            > > > >>Does anyone know of a study of the textual
                            > > > characteristics (e.g., OG,
                            > > > >>kaige, Lucianic, hexaplaric, etc.) of the
                            > version
                            > > > of the LXX used by the
                            > > > >>Orthodox Church?
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>Any information would be much appreciated.
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>Thanks,
                            > > > >>Dick Saley
                            > > > >>
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > > ---
                            > > > >>| Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel:
                            > 617-495-4239
                            > > > |
                            > > > >>| The Semitic Museum Fax:
                            > 617-496-8904
                            > > > |
                            > > > >>| Harvard University
                            > > > saley@... |
                            > > > >>| Six Divinity Avenue
                            > > > |
                            > > > >>| Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
                            > > > |
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > > ---
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>eGroups.com home:
                            > http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                            > > > >>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                            > > > communications
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > > >
                            > > > >eGroups.com home:
                            > http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                            > > > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                            > > > communications
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > ---
                            > > > | Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel:
                            > 617-495-4239
                            > > > |
                            > > > | The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904
                            > > > |
                            > > > | Harvard University
                            > > > saley@... |
                            > > > | Six Divinity Avenue
                            > > > |
                            > > > | Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
                            > > > |
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > ---
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > >
                            > > > eGroups.com home:
                            > http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                            > > > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                            > > > communications
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > =====
                            > >
                            > > __________________________________________________
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                            > > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/lxx
                            > > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                            > communications
                            > >
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                            > >
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                            > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
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                          • Steve Puluka
                            I am a member of the Eastern Churches. I teach our theology, spirituality and prayer. I lead my congregation as a cantor in my parish. In my own study of
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 5, 1999
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                              I am a member of the Eastern Churches. I teach our theology, spirituality
                              and prayer. I lead my congregation as a cantor in my parish. In my own
                              study of my Eastern Churches tradition, Jellicoe, �The Septuagint in Modern
                              Study� has proved useful. I am not aware of a study that details what text
                              traditions are used in our various churches.

                              In the United States my jurisdiction is currently undergoing a complete
                              review of English translations in our Liturgical services. I have heard
                              from a member of this Liturgical Commission that the scripture quotations
                              used in various services, and even different parts of the same service, can
                              be traced to different text sources. The Byzantine Text form is the
                              standard text for the Septuagint for Orthodox churchs founded from
                              Constantinople. This would include Greece and all of Eastern Europe. This
                              text is incorporates a collection of Origens and Theodotion�s revisions to
                              the original text.

                              When speaking of the Septuagint of the Orthodox Church first one must
                              remember that the LXX or New Testament as a separate work and object of
                              study is not really the way of the Christian east. We approach these works
                              historically through the act of worship. Our liturgical services are the
                              expression and understanding of scripture and they are how we learn
                              scripture and pass this knowledge on to future generations. This is why I
                              approach textual issues in my church from the point of view of liturgy and
                              the lectionary. This is an approach we inherited from the Jewish faith, see
                              Jellicoe pp.64-73.

                              I submit that the liturgical use of the text is the only real use in the
                              Orthodox Church History. We preserve the text as a voice against heresy
                              along with the Patristic literature but the liturgy of the Church is where
                              we "teach" scripture.

                              The three major recensions of the LXX are well treated by Jellicoe p. 134
                              and p. 344. In reviewing the other texts one must view the list from the
                              point of view of geography of expansion from the Patriachates. Alexandria
                              moves south, Antioch moves to Constantinople, the slavs and east.
                              Patrisitic use of the texts in the east is covered on page 349.

                              This can also occur in the Lectionary itself. You will note from Jellicoe's
                              study (and Metzgers Early Versions of the New Testament) that much of the
                              Slavonic translation of scripture is based on the Vulgate rather than
                              theSeptuagint directly. Therefore, Eastern Churches from slavic countries
                              have a different text usage than those from Greece, the middle east or
                              Egyptian varieties.

                              Note that John Chrysostom of Antioch, later Patriach of Constantinople, is a
                              powerful witness to the LXX in his writings. He is also the author of the
                              anaphora used in most Byzantine Divine Liturgies today. His text for the
                              Liturgy is filled with LXX quotes and allusions.

                              The Christian East is a confederation of sister churches. We each have our
                              own discipline and control with only a kind of moral support from the other
                              Patriachs. This includes the scripture texts. Each group is using the
                              translation of scriputure into their mother tongue. The major versions of
                              these are noted well Chapter 8 the versions. We have all moved forward from
                              these.

                              My own jurisdiction (Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic) used the Church Slavonic
                              version of scripture exclusively until the move to the united states about
                              100 years ago. In English we have relied on Catholic versions to fill our
                              needs. Indeed, Jellicoe notes that much of our Slavonic text is from the
                              Vulgate anyway.

                              In response to the Reformation Orthodoxy did affirm the LXX as scripture
                              against the MT. The council of Jerusalem in 1672 settled this question
                              officially. Unfortunately, none of the sources I have on hand include the
                              full text of this council. None of the summaries mention the specific text
                              accepted, if any. Trent makes the Vulgate the final version for Roman
                              catholics but I believe the Orthodox situation will prove less clear. See
                              the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Jerusalem. The text variants in use by
                              the various jurisdictions have never been officially addressed.

                              http://www.newadvent.com/cathen/

                              I am not aware of any critical apparatus for Orthodox versions of the LXX.
                              I'm sure you are aware of Rahlf's as the basic option commonly available.

                              Patristic writers are indeed a rich source of quotations from the
                              Septuagint. We can see the various text forms in their writings based on
                              where they are from. When Chrysostom�s quotes of the septuagint vary from
                              the received Byzantine form I�m told they match the Alexandrius version. We
                              did however, preserve the various texts of the Septuagint in various
                              jurisdictions. There is no need to reconstruct a text out of the
                              commentaris, homilies or other Patristic usage.

                              The LXX.org is a project by the Antiochian church. This is a wonderful
                              contribution to the understanding of the scriptures for the Christian East.
                              They appear to be using the received text for the translation. But I will
                              be checking the existing translations against my copy of Brenton�s and
                              Rahlf�s text to attempt confirm this.

                              While I did not know about this project, Father Sparks is a familiar
                              figure. He is the editor of the current translations we have of the
                              Apostolic Fathers published by Light and Life Publications in Minneapolis.
                              This is a great source for information about the Eastern Christian
                              Churches.

                              http://www.light-n-life.com

                              You may also be interested in the work of the International Organization for
                              Septuagint and Cognate Studies.

                              http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/ioscs/

                              Membership is very inexpensive and their annual publication of student
                              papers are announced every fall.

                              Steve Puluka
                              Adult Education Instructor & Cantor
                              Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh

                              ______________________________________________________
                            • james miller
                              Dr. Saley: My contact with the lxx.org people has indicated to me that they are, indeed, using Rahlfs in translating their Orthodox Study Bible OT. Arkadi has
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 6, 1999
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                                Dr. Saley:

                                My contact with the lxx.org people has indicated to me that they are,
                                indeed, using Rahlfs in translating their Orthodox Study Bible OT.

                                Arkadi has made an important contribution to this discussion in pointing to
                                the range of patristic OT commentary, which does, in fact, cover a much
                                wider span of biblical material than the Prophetologion I referred to. One
                                reason I didn't mention this in my answer is because, in discussions of
                                text character, raising the issue of patristic witness to scripture can
                                complicate the issue immensely. First, it is sometimes the case that
                                different Fathers cite from different textual witnesses. For example,
                                Origen might cite from the Hexapla and John Chrysostom from Lucian. Then,
                                there are instances in which a patristic figure who normally cites from one
                                of these witnesses might throw in a citation from Theodotion or Aquila out
                                of the blue. Additionally, the practice of paraphrase often employed in
                                patristic commentary/citation (not to mention the not unkown instances of
                                deliberate misquotation of a passage) makes determining the text character
                                underlying such citations virtually impossible. Probably a separate study
                                would be necessary for each patristic commentator on the issue of the
                                character of the text on which they are commenting. But of course this does
                                not nullify Arkadi's point that the range of biblical literature dealt with
                                by Christians was much wider than the scope of scriptural passages
                                contained in service books and read in public worship. I would point out
                                though, that my cursory exploration of scripture citation frequency
                                indicates that those portions read publicly were the most frequently cited
                                and commented on (e.g., Pss, Isa, Gen, Prov etc.).

                                In reference to my initial answer, I must note that I saw in the initial
                                question a modern conception of the Bible as a sort of "everyman's book."
                                This conception of the Bible only really arises with the advent of the
                                printing press and even more so with the efforts of the Bible Societies of
                                the 19th century, whose express aim was to make the scriptures available to
                                all everywhere, regardless of social rank, economic standing or language.
                                This effort was complemented by drives to increase the rate of literacy.
                                Owing to these factors, the modern situation, both with respect to
                                availability of the biblical text as well as with reference to levels of
                                literacy, is unprecedented historically. Thus a real question remains about
                                the extent to which we can employ our current conceptions of "Bible" when
                                dealing with
                                certain historical periods. In aiming for a simple answer, I tried to
                                discern what could have corresponded to the concept of "Bible"--both in
                                terms of containing texts included in modern Bibles, as well as being
                                widely available and known--in more remote periods of history.
                                Consideration of the difficulty and expense involved in producing books in
                                pre-printing press times, when taken together with the accompanying low
                                literacy rates, suggests publicly read biblical material as the most likely
                                candidate for the corresponding "biblical everyman's book" for those times.
                                Drawing such a connection is not without its problems, as I would readily
                                admit. Arkadi's comments underline their speculative nature and,
                                ultimately, highlight the fundamental resistance of the historical record
                                to modern preconceptions.

                                James Miller

                                PS Steve Puluka: are you aware of the liturgical material being translated
                                and published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery (Old Calendar Greek) in
                                Brookline? They are currently translating scripture readings for their
                                menaion, and I was able to bring Zuntz's critical edition of the
                                Prophetologion to their attention for this project.

                                Also, you state that: "You will note from Jellicoe's
                                study (and Metzgers Early Versions of the New Testament) that much of the
                                Slavonic translation of scripture is based on the Vulgate rather than the
                                Septuagint directly." Can you supply me with the references from these
                                scholars' works? Thanks.

                                And finally, when you say "Byzantine text", aren't you mixing up a NT text
                                type with the LXX? I don't believe I've ever heard any LXX text type
                                referred to as "Byzantine."
                              • dkuc076@aix2.uottawa.ca
                                Dear Steve Puluka, I would just like to comment on something you wrote. You mentioned twice that much of the Slavonic translation of the LXX was based on the
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 7, 1999
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                                  Dear Steve Puluka,

                                  I would just like to comment on something you wrote. You mentioned
                                  twice that "much of" the Slavonic translation of the LXX was based on the
                                  Vulgate.

                                  I would like to point out that the version you are referring to is
                                  known as "The Ostroh Bible" which is a complete translation of the entire
                                  Bible (at least as it was known to the Slavs of the 16th century). If I'm
                                  not mistaken, it was the first major work to be printed in Church
                                  Slavonic. It was reprinted by St. Vladimir's College (Winnipeg, MA) in
                                  honor of the millenium of Christianity in the lands of the Kievan
                                  tradition. This text, however, is less than practical: it is an extremely
                                  large and heavy tome and, since the it is merely a reprint, the Slavonic
                                  print is very difficult to read (lacking the crispness found in modern
                                  books, such as the liturgical books published by Rome).

                                  In the 18th century (I think), the Slavonic Bible was revised and
                                  republished. This "corrected" and "updated" edition is known as the
                                  Elizabethan Bible. One of the most salient features of this revision is
                                  that the editors retranslated those books that were based on the Vulgate
                                  in the Ostroh version (in the main, these were the deuterocanonicals). In
                                  fact, at the end of each of these books, there is a note stating that they
                                  were retranslated "according to the Alexandrian version".

                                  So, the whole point of this rather long-winded excursus is to
                                  explain that it is incorrect to say that "much of" the Slavonic version is
                                  based on the Vulgate. First of all, it was really only a few of the
                                  deuterocanonicals; secondly, the "modern" Slavonic version (if anything in
                                  Slavonic can be considered "modern") has corrected this inconsistency.

                                  Incidentally, the Elizabethan Bible published in 1905 continues to
                                  be reprinted in St. Petersburg in a very handsome and readable edition
                                  which includes lists of all the OT and NT readings prescribed throughout
                                  the church year. I believe it is available from the United Bible
                                  Societies.

                                  --DK

                                  On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Steve Puluka wrote:

                                  > I am a member of the Eastern Churches. I teach our theology, spirituality
                                  > and prayer. I lead my congregation as a cantor in my parish. In my own
                                  > study of my Eastern Churches tradition, Jellicoe, �The Septuagint in Modern
                                  > Study� has proved useful. I am not aware of a study that details what text
                                  > traditions are used in our various churches.
                                  >
                                  > In the United States my jurisdiction is currently undergoing a complete
                                  > review of English translations in our Liturgical services. I have heard
                                  > from a member of this Liturgical Commission that the scripture quotations
                                  > used in various services, and even different parts of the same service, can
                                  > be traced to different text sources. The Byzantine Text form is the
                                  > standard text for the Septuagint for Orthodox churchs founded from
                                  > Constantinople. This would include Greece and all of Eastern Europe. This
                                  > text is incorporates a collection of Origens and Theodotion�s revisions to
                                  > the original text.
                                  >
                                  > When speaking of the Septuagint of the Orthodox Church first one must
                                  > remember that the LXX or New Testament as a separate work and object of
                                  > study is not really the way of the Christian east. We approach these works
                                  > historically through the act of worship. Our liturgical services are the
                                  > expression and understanding of scripture and they are how we learn
                                  > scripture and pass this knowledge on to future generations. This is why I
                                  > approach textual issues in my church from the point of view of liturgy and
                                  > the lectionary. This is an approach we inherited from the Jewish faith, see
                                  > Jellicoe pp.64-73.
                                  >
                                  > I submit that the liturgical use of the text is the only real use in the
                                  > Orthodox Church History. We preserve the text as a voice against heresy
                                  > along with the Patristic literature but the liturgy of the Church is where
                                  > we "teach" scripture.
                                  >
                                  > The three major recensions of the LXX are well treated by Jellicoe p. 134
                                  > and p. 344. In reviewing the other texts one must view the list from the
                                  > point of view of geography of expansion from the Patriachates. Alexandria
                                  > moves south, Antioch moves to Constantinople, the slavs and east.
                                  > Patrisitic use of the texts in the east is covered on page 349.
                                  >
                                  > This can also occur in the Lectionary itself. You will note from Jellicoe's
                                  > study (and Metzgers Early Versions of the New Testament) that much of the
                                  > Slavonic translation of scripture is based on the Vulgate rather than
                                  > theSeptuagint directly. Therefore, Eastern Churches from slavic countries
                                  > have a different text usage than those from Greece, the middle east or
                                  > Egyptian varieties.
                                  >
                                  > Note that John Chrysostom of Antioch, later Patriach of Constantinople, is a
                                  > powerful witness to the LXX in his writings. He is also the author of the
                                  > anaphora used in most Byzantine Divine Liturgies today. His text for the
                                  > Liturgy is filled with LXX quotes and allusions.
                                  >
                                  > The Christian East is a confederation of sister churches. We each have our
                                  > own discipline and control with only a kind of moral support from the other
                                  > Patriachs. This includes the scripture texts. Each group is using the
                                  > translation of scriputure into their mother tongue. The major versions of
                                  > these are noted well Chapter 8 the versions. We have all moved forward from
                                  > these.
                                  >
                                  > My own jurisdiction (Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic) used the Church Slavonic
                                  > version of scripture exclusively until the move to the united states about
                                  > 100 years ago. In English we have relied on Catholic versions to fill our
                                  > needs. Indeed, Jellicoe notes that much of our Slavonic text is from the
                                  > Vulgate anyway.
                                  >
                                  > In response to the Reformation Orthodoxy did affirm the LXX as scripture
                                  > against the MT. The council of Jerusalem in 1672 settled this question
                                  > officially. Unfortunately, none of the sources I have on hand include the
                                  > full text of this council. None of the summaries mention the specific text
                                  > accepted, if any. Trent makes the Vulgate the final version for Roman
                                  > catholics but I believe the Orthodox situation will prove less clear. See
                                  > the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Jerusalem. The text variants in use by
                                  > the various jurisdictions have never been officially addressed.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.newadvent.com/cathen/
                                  >
                                  > I am not aware of any critical apparatus for Orthodox versions of the LXX.
                                  > I'm sure you are aware of Rahlf's as the basic option commonly available.
                                  >
                                  > Patristic writers are indeed a rich source of quotations from the
                                  > Septuagint. We can see the various text forms in their writings based on
                                  > where they are from. When Chrysostom�s quotes of the septuagint vary from
                                  > the received Byzantine form I�m told they match the Alexandrius version. We
                                  > did however, preserve the various texts of the Septuagint in various
                                  > jurisdictions. There is no need to reconstruct a text out of the
                                  > commentaris, homilies or other Patristic usage.
                                  >
                                  > The LXX.org is a project by the Antiochian church. This is a wonderful
                                  > contribution to the understanding of the scriptures for the Christian East.
                                  > They appear to be using the received text for the translation. But I will
                                  > be checking the existing translations against my copy of Brenton�s and
                                  > Rahlf�s text to attempt confirm this.
                                  >
                                  > While I did not know about this project, Father Sparks is a familiar
                                  > figure. He is the editor of the current translations we have of the
                                  > Apostolic Fathers published by Light and Life Publications in Minneapolis.
                                  > This is a great source for information about the Eastern Christian
                                  > Churches.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.light-n-life.com
                                  >
                                  > You may also be interested in the work of the International Organization for
                                  > Septuagint and Cognate Studies.
                                  >
                                  > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/ioscs/
                                  >
                                  > Membership is very inexpensive and their annual publication of student
                                  > papers are announced every fall.
                                  >
                                  > Steve Puluka
                                  > Adult Education Instructor & Cantor
                                  > Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
                                  >
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                                • james and tatyana miller
                                  DK: Do I understand correctly that you re saying that the only part of the Ostrog Bible that was translated from the Vulgate were the so-called
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 7, 1999
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                                    DK:

                                    Do I understand correctly that you're saying that the only part of the
                                    Ostrog Bible that was translated from the Vulgate were the so-called
                                    Deuterocanonical books? If so, this implies that the rest of the Ostrog
                                    Bible was a translation from some other biblical manuscript, and thus from
                                    a different (from Latin) language. Can you say anything about what the
                                    remainder of the Ostrog Bible (i.e., other than the Deuterocanonicals) was
                                    a translation of?

                                    Thanks, James Miller
                                  • Richard J Saley
                                    I want to thank most sincerely those of you who have taken the time and effort to respond to my query about the textual characteristics of the LXX of the
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 12, 1999
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                                      I want to thank most sincerely those of you who have taken the time and
                                      effort to respond to my query about the textual characteristics of the LXX
                                      of the Orthodox Church. What at the time seemed to me to be a simple
                                      question has unmasked a very complex situation and I have learned much from
                                      your willingness to explain the transmission of the biblical text
                                      historically as an outgrowth of the role(s) assigned to it within the
                                      Orthodox communities.

                                      The real beneficiaries, of course, will be my students to whom I shall pass
                                      along--faithfully, I hope--what I have learned.

                                      With best wishes,
                                      Dick Saley
                                      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      | Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239 |
                                      | The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904 |
                                      | Harvard University saley@... |
                                      | Six Divinity Avenue |
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                                    • james miller
                                      Dear Dr. Saley: Thanks for your questions! You generated some interesting discussion here. Any further questions or comments you might have would be most
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 12, 1999
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                                        Dear Dr. Saley:

                                        Thanks for your questions! You generated some interesting discussion here.
                                        Any further questions or comments you might have would be most welcome.

                                        James Miller


                                        At 10:19 PM 10/12/99 -0400, you wrote:
                                        >I want to thank most sincerely those of you who have taken the time and
                                        >effort to respond to my query about the textual characteristics of the LXX
                                        >of the Orthodox Church. What at the time seemed to me to be a simple
                                        >question has unmasked a very complex situation and I have learned much from
                                        >your willingness to explain the transmission of the biblical text
                                        >historically as an outgrowth of the role(s) assigned to it within the
                                        >Orthodox communities.
                                        >
                                        >The real beneficiaries, of course, will be my students to whom I shall pass
                                        >along--faithfully, I hope--what I have learned.
                                        >
                                        >With best wishes,
                                        >Dick Saley
                                        >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        >| Richard J. Saley, Ph.D. Tel: 617-495-4239 |
                                        >| The Semitic Museum Fax: 617-496-8904 |
                                        >| Harvard University saley@... |
                                        >| Six Divinity Avenue |
                                        >| Cambridge, MA 02138 USA |
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