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Re: [lxx] Re: New upcoming LXX translation

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  • Peter Papoutsis
    Dear Father: I can understand your disappointment in the use of transliterated names. I personally prefer transliteration, but I can understand the compliant
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 28, 2008
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      Dear Father:

      I can understand your disappointment in the use of transliterated names. I personally prefer transliteration, but I can understand the compliant of those that do not. Overall Mr. Asser's translation will be very welcomed in the Orthodox world. I personally like the NETS translation, for personal reading and study, alas its not suitable for general Orthodox use. I too share your criticism of translating "Spirit of God" as divine wind. What exactly does that mean? However, neither is the OSB, 1st Edition, satisfactory, which I found to be a great disappointment both in the Old and New Testament. They fail to properly translate the LXX in many areas and don't give us an official translation of the Church's Official New Testament from the Constandinopilan NT text. Yet, I am still hopeful that the OSB people will get things correct in their 2nd edition, at least that's what I tell myself so I don't get to angry at what they did (or failed to do) in their
      LXX translation.
       
      Peter A. Papoutsis
       
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      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Fr. John Whiteford <frjohnwhiteford@...>
      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:11:29 PM
      Subject: [lxx] Re: New upcoming LXX translation


      I am looking forward to seeing it as well, and expect that it will be
      the most useable translation for liturgical purposes available, but
      unfortunatley, the translation (at least judging from the Psalter,
      which is available online) opted to use the Greek form of names for
      places and persons, rather than the forms that have been in standard
      use in English for the past 4 centuries+.

      It makes such a translation far less useful when you have names
      like "Nabuchodnosor. .." and "Elliseus", that are not going to be
      found in your standard Bible Dictionary or encyclopedia. We have
      English translations of these names, and it makes little sense to use
      strange forms that most people are unfamiliar with, and will not be
      able to look up in any standard texts.

      The NETS translation is even worse, in that respect, I should add.

      -Fr. John Whiteford

      --- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > I am very well aware of this as I was communicating with Michael on
      this subject after his LXX Psalms translation came out. He wanted to
      use my footnotes in my translation of the LXX and I agreed to
      allowing him to use my footnotes. However, CTOS has to make the final
      decision on this. I can't wait to see his final product as the
      samples that he has allowed me to review are very, very good.
      >  
      > Peter A. Papoutsis
      >  
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: criostoir1971 <criostoir1971@ ...>
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:56:45 PM
      > Subject: [lxx] New upcoming LXX translation
      >
      >
      > I just received the latest issue of "Orthodox Tradition," published
      by
      > the Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, and it lists the
      > following title as a forthcoming publication:
      >
      > "The Septuagint: Old Testament and Apocrypha," complied by Michael
      > Asser, to be published in six volumes: the Pentateuch, followed by
      the
      > Historical Books (in 2 volumes), the Poetical Books, and the Minor
      and
      > Major Prophets (in 2 volumes).
      >
      > Given the consistently high quality of translations produced by the
      > CTOS, this should be an excellent reference for all Orthodox
      > Christians.
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Chris
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Far Talk
      If they changed the names to match the Medieval pointings of the Massoretes, wouldn t that mean altering the base text of LXX and anachronistic, too? On Thu,
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 2, 2008
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        If they changed the names to match the Medieval pointings of the Massoretes,
        wouldn't that mean altering the base text of LXX and anachronistic, too?

        On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Fr. John Whiteford <
        frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:

        > I am looking forward to seeing it as well, and expect that it will be
        > the most useable translation for liturgical purposes available, but
        > unfortunatley, the translation (at least judging from the Psalter,
        > which is available online) opted to use the Greek form of names for
        > places and persons, rather than the forms that have been in standard
        > use in English for the past 4 centuries+.
        >
        > It makes such a translation far less useful when you have names
        > like "Nabuchodnosor..." and "Elliseus", that are not going to be
        > found in your standard Bible Dictionary or encyclopedia. We have
        > English translations of these names, and it makes little sense to use
        > strange forms that most people are unfamiliar with, and will not be
        > able to look up in any standard texts.
        >
        > The NETS translation is even worse, in that respect, I should add.
        >
        > -Fr. John Whiteford
        >
        >
        > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>, Peter Papoutsis
        > <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I am very well aware of this as I was communicating with Michael on
        > this subject after his LXX Psalms translation came out. He wanted to
        > use my footnotes in my translation of the LXX and I agreed to
        > allowing him to use my footnotes. However, CTOS has to make the final
        > decision on this. I can't wait to see his final product as the
        > samples that he has allowed me to review are very, very good.
        > >
        > > Peter A. Papoutsis
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message ----
        > > From: criostoir1971 <criostoir1971@...>
        > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:56:45 PM
        > > Subject: [lxx] New upcoming LXX translation
        > >
        > >
        > > I just received the latest issue of "Orthodox Tradition," published
        > by
        > > the Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, and it lists the
        > > following title as a forthcoming publication:
        > >
        > > "The Septuagint: Old Testament and Apocrypha," complied by Michael
        > > Asser, to be published in six volumes: the Pentateuch, followed by
        > the
        > > Historical Books (in 2 volumes), the Poetical Books, and the Minor
        > and
        > > Major Prophets (in 2 volumes).
        > >
        > > Given the consistently high quality of translations produced by the
        > > CTOS, this should be an excellent reference for all Orthodox
        > > Christians.
        > >
        > > In Christ,
        > > Chris
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • andrew fincke
        Dear Far, Not sure what you re getting at. Ezekiel s a tongue-twister, but try saying it in Hebrew! Yechezkeyl means God is strong , but LXX
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 2, 2008
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          Dear Far,
          Not sure what you're getting at. "Ezekiel"'s a tongue-twister, but try saying it in Hebrew! "Yechezkeyl" means "God is strong", but LXX �������� (YEZEKIHL) is a mystery to me. It captures the rhythm of the Hebrew but displaces a syllable. Any ideas?
          Andrew Fincke



          To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: far.talk@...: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:52:47 -0400Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: New upcoming LXX translation




          If they changed the names to match the Medieval pointings of the Massoretes,wouldn't that mean altering the base text of LXX and anachronistic, too?On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Fr. John Whiteford <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:> I am looking forward to seeing it as well, and expect that it will be> the most useable translation for liturgical purposes available, but> unfortunatley, the translation (at least judging from the Psalter,> which is available online) opted to use the Greek form of names for> places and persons, rather than the forms that have been in standard> use in English for the past 4 centuries+.>> It makes such a translation far less useful when you have names> like "Nabuchodnosor..." and "Elliseus", that are not going to be> found in your standard Bible Dictionary or encyclopedia. We have> English translations of these names, and it makes little sense to use> strange forms that most people are unfamiliar with, and will not be> able to look up in any standard texts.>> The NETS translation is even worse, in that respect, I should add.>> -Fr. John Whiteford>>> --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>, Peter Papoutsis> <papoutsis1@...> wrote:> >> > I am very well aware of this as I was communicating with Michael on> this subject after his LXX Psalms translation came out. He wanted to> use my footnotes in my translation of the LXX and I agreed to> allowing him to use my footnotes. However, CTOS has to make the final> decision on this. I can't wait to see his final product as the> samples that he has allowed me to review are very, very good.> >> > Peter A. Papoutsis> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: criostoir1971 <criostoir1971@...>> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:56:45 PM> > Subject: [lxx] New upcoming LXX translation> >> >> > I just received the latest issue of "Orthodox Tradition," published> by> > the Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, and it lists the> > following title as a forthcoming publication:> >> > "The Septuagint: Old Testament and Apocrypha," complied by Michael> > Asser, to be published in six volumes: the Pentateuch, followed by> the> > Historical Books (in 2 volumes), the Poetical Books, and the Minor> and> > Major Prophets (in 2 volumes).> >> > Given the consistently high quality of translations produced by the> > CTOS, this should be an excellent reference for all Orthodox> > Christians.> >> > In Christ,> > Chris> >> >> >> >> >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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        • Far Talk
          I am not familiar with that form of Ezekiel (Yechezkeyl). One of the reasons for using LXX is to see what it witnesses to. If it is true that LXX and
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 10, 2008
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            I am not familiar with that form of "Ezekiel" (Yechezkeyl). One of the
            reasons for using LXX is to see what it witnesses to. If it is true that LXX
            and Masoretic represent separate traditions, then it might be misleading to
            conflate them in regard to proper nouns and the linguistic information that
            the LXX may preserve would be lost.

            On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:52 PM, andrew fincke <finckea@...> wrote:

            >
            > Dear Far,
            > Not sure what you're getting at. "Ezekiel"'s a tongue-twister, but try
            > saying it in Hebrew! "Yechezkeyl" means "God is strong", but LXX Éåæåêéçë
            > (YEZEKIHL) is a mystery to me. It captures the rhythm of the Hebrew but
            > displaces a syllable. Any ideas?
            > Andrew Fincke
            >
            >
            >
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: far.talk@...: Tue, 2 Sep 2008
            > 11:52:47 -0400Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: New upcoming LXX translation
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > If they changed the names to match the Medieval pointings of the
            > Massoretes,wouldn't that mean altering the base text of LXX and
            > anachronistic, too?On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Fr. John Whiteford <
            > frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:> I am looking forward to seeing it as
            > well, and expect that it will be> the most useable translation for
            > liturgical purposes available, but> unfortunatley, the translation (at least
            > judging from the Psalter,> which is available online) opted to use the Greek
            > form of names for> places and persons, rather than the forms that have been
            > in standard> use in English for the past 4 centuries+.>> It makes such a
            > translation far less useful when you have names> like "Nabuchodnosor..." and
            > "Elliseus", that are not going to be> found in your standard Bible
            > Dictionary or encyclopedia. We have> English translations of these names,
            > and it makes little sense to use> strange forms that most people are
            > unfamiliar with, and will not be> able to look up in any standard texts.>>
            > The NETS translation is even worse, in that respect, I should add.>> -Fr.
            > John Whiteford>>> --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > Peter Papoutsis> <papoutsis1@...> wrote:> >> > I am very well aware of
            > this as I was communicating with Michael on> this subject after his LXX
            > Psalms translation came out. He wanted to> use my footnotes in my
            > translation of the LXX and I agreed to> allowing him to use my footnotes.
            > However, CTOS has to make the final> decision on this. I can't wait to see
            > his final product as the> samples that he has allowed me to review are very,
            > very good.> >> > Peter A. Papoutsis> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ---->
            > > From: criostoir1971 <criostoir1971@...>> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%
            > 40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:56:45 PM> >
            > Subject: [lxx] New upcoming LXX translation> >> >> > I just received the
            > latest issue of "Orthodox Tradition," published> by> > the Center for
            > Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, and it lists the> > following title as a
            > forthcoming publication:> >> > "The Septuagint: Old Testament and
            > Apocrypha," complied by Michael> > Asser, to be published in six volumes:
            > the Pentateuch, followed by> the> > Historical Books (in 2 volumes), the
            > Poetical Books, and the Minor> and> > Major Prophets (in 2 volumes).> >> >
            > Given the consistently high quality of translations produced by the> > CTOS,
            > this should be an excellent reference for all Orthodox> > Christians.> >> >
            > In Christ,> > Chris> >> >> >> >> >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message
            > have been removed]> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
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          • andrew fincke
            Dear Far, 1) It is NOT true that LXX and Masoretic represent separate traditions ; 2) Unlike English most names in Hebrew mean something - although,
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 10, 2008
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              Dear Far,
              1) It is NOT true "that LXX and Masoretic represent separate traditions";
              2) Unlike English most names in Hebrew mean something - although, admittedly, "God is strong" is not a very profound statement.
              3) 1 Samuel 22:6 tells us that "Saul sat in Giva' under the tree in Rama". "Giva'" means "hill" in Hebrew and is a synonym of "Rama" (lit. "high place"). LXX thus has Saul sitting in "a hill (BOUNW)under the tree in RAMA". Is that a "separate tradition"? Hebrew and LXX agree in leaving it to the reader to decide whether Saul sat "in a hill" or "in a place called Hill".
              Andrew Fincke



              To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: far.talk@...: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:32:37 -0400Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: New upcoming LXX translation




              I am not familiar with that form of "Ezekiel" (Yechezkeyl). One of thereasons for using LXX is to see what it witnesses to. If it is true that LXXand Masoretic represent separate traditions, then it might be misleading toconflate them in regard to proper nouns and the linguistic information thatthe LXX may preserve would be lost.On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:52 PM, andrew fincke <finckea@...> wrote:>> Dear Far,> Not sure what you're getting at. "Ezekiel"'s a tongue-twister, but try> saying it in Hebrew! "Yechezkeyl" means "God is strong", but LXX Éåæåêéçë> (YEZEKIHL) is a mystery to me. It captures the rhythm of the Hebrew but> displaces a syllable. Any ideas?> Andrew Fincke>>>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: far.talk@...: Tue, 2 Sep 2008> 11:52:47 -0400Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: New upcoming LXX translation>>>>> If they changed the names to match the Medieval pointings of the> Massoretes,wouldn't that mean altering the base text of LXX and> anachronistic, too?On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Fr. John Whiteford <> frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:> I am looking forward to seeing it as> well, and expect that it will be> the most useable translation for> liturgical purposes available, but> unfortunatley, the translation (at least> judging from the Psalter,> which is available online) opted to use the Greek> form of names for> places and persons, rather than the forms that have been> in standard> use in English for the past 4 centuries+.>> It makes such a> translation far less useful when you have names> like "Nabuchodnosor..." and> "Elliseus", that are not going to be> found in your standard Bible> Dictionary or encyclopedia. We have> English translations of these names,> and it makes little sense to use> strange forms that most people are> unfamiliar with, and will not be> able to look up in any standard texts.>>> The NETS translation is even worse, in that respect, I should add.>> -Fr.> John Whiteford>>> --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>,> Peter Papoutsis> <papoutsis1@...> wrote:> >> > I am very well aware of> this as I was communicating with Michael on> this subject after his LXX> Psalms translation came out. He wanted to> use my footnotes in my> translation of the LXX and I agreed to> allowing him to use my footnotes.> However, CTOS has to make the final> decision on this. I can't wait to see> his final product as the> samples that he has allowed me to review are very,> very good.> >> > Peter A. Papoutsis> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ---->> > From: criostoir1971 <criostoir1971@...>> > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%> 40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:56:45 PM> >> Subject: [lxx] New upcoming LXX translation> >> >> > I just received the> latest issue of "Orthodox Tradition," published> by> > the Center for> Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, and it lists the> > following title as a> forthcoming publication:> >> > "The Septuagint: Old Testament and> Apocrypha," complied by Michael> > Asser, to be published in six volumes:> the Pentateuch, followed by> the> > Historical Books (in 2 volumes), the> Poetical Books, and the Minor> and> > Major Prophets (in 2 volumes).> >> >> Given the consistently high quality of translations produced by the> > CTOS,> this should be an excellent reference for all Orthodox> > Christians.> >> >> In Christ,> > Chris> >> >> >> >> >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message> have been removed]> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been> removed]>>>>>> __________________________________________________________> Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new ways to share.>> http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Photo_Gallery_082008>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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            • Ashley Crane
              Dear Far and Andrew, P967 LXX Ezekiel represents a different tradition than MT Ezekiel Ashley _____ From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
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                Dear Far and Andrew,



                P967 LXX Ezekiel represents a different tradition than MT Ezekiel





                Ashley







                _____

                From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrew
                fincke
                Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 2:13 AM
                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [lxx] Re: New upcoming LXX translation




                Dear Far,
                1) It is NOT true "that LXX and Masoretic represent separate traditions";
                Andrew Fincke

                To: lxx@yahoogroups. <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.comFrom> comFrom:
                far.talk@gmail. <mailto:far.talk%40gmail.comDate> comDate: Wed, 10 Sep 2008
                13:32:37 -0400Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: New upcoming LXX translation

                I am not familiar with that form of "Ezekiel" (Yechezkeyl). One of
                thereasons for using LXX is to see what it witnesses to. If it is true that
                LXXand Masoretic represent separate traditions, then it might be misleading
                toconflate them in regard to proper nouns and the linguistic information
                thatthe LXX may preserve would be lost.









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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