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Re: [lxx] Public Domain Accented Septuagint Text

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  • Andrew
    Thank you very much for your valuable posts. Probably, it can be generally accepted, that all printed texts and manuscripts written before 1923 are in the
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 1, 2008
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      Thank you very much for your valuable posts.

      Probably, it can be generally accepted, that all printed texts and manuscripts
      written before 1923 are in the public domain. Indeed we are speaking about
      very ancient texts. But I see that there is also a Copyright over the digital
      products, although they are produced from public domain sources. (When I make
      a photograph of a tree, that shot is my property, and the usage of the shot
      depends on my will. The same is with the texts, specially when it comes to
      inputing/transcribing the texts by the keyboard to digital form, which may
      take many years of hard working.)

      When I place some texts on my website, it is easy to remove them if someone
      asks this. But if I have worked for 15 years making corrections to the text,
      such situation will trouble my life and work. This is the main point of my
      posts about the Public Domain versions. In these cases the copyrighted bible
      texts are unusable for many of us.

      Some notes:
      1. Public Domain = No copyright.
      (Once the term of a copyright has expired, the formerly copyrighted work
      enters the public domain and may be freely used or exploited by anyone. The
      term indicates that these materials are therefore "public property", and
      available for anyone to use for any purpose.)
      2. All known web texts (Septuagint) cannot be freely corrected, modified and
      published.
      3. All available digital texts are copyrighted, except Hancock's, but this
      cannot be verified.
      4. All are using Rahlfs. There is no other text. Even the LXX text used by the
      Church of Greece is Alfred Rahlfs Septuaginta.
      5. Maybe even the copyright of the original text of Rahlfs is doubtful.
      6. The CCAT/CATSS text is not Public Domain, and maybe not permitted for
      distribution. And the meaning of "private" to this publicly used text is
      questionable? Complicated situation.
      7. The http://www.tyndalehouse.co.uk/Fonts/index.htm text is Hancock's.
      7. The transcription of all the texts of the bible by the keyboard is very
      difficult work, which takes about 15-25 years. (Transcribing and
      Proofreading).
      9. If I want to publish one very old manuscript called the "ORIGINAL" :), then
      I need to use, modify and publish some non copyrighted text. The copyrighted
      is unusable in this case.
      10. It's impossible to OCR (Optical Character Recognition) classical Greek
      anyway.
      11. God bless you :)

      I will be thankful for your corrections and clarifications.

      Respectfully
      Andrew
    • andrew fincke
      Dear Andrew, All are using Rahlfs ???? I doubt it. I use Brooke-McLean, Old Testament in Greek, II/1, which came out in 1927; and I don t hear the police
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 1, 2008
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        Dear Andrew,
        "All are using Rahlfs"???? I doubt it. I use Brooke-McLean, Old Testament in Greek, II/1, which came out in 1927; and I don't hear the police knocking at the door. Of course, I don't use the text uncritically, because even they (B and M) don't stick to Vaticanus where the going gets tough - e.g. 2 Samuel 2:5-13, where a mouse ate a corner of the page, and they fill in from Alexandrinus. Or 2 Samuel 17:19, where Vaticanus: EGNWQH (for EGNWSQH "was known") was to repulsive to include. Get a hold of a facsimile - there are a number on the market (several from the 1800's) - and wave it before the judge at your plagiarism trial. You're going to have a tough time convincing me that Smend's invented ETEROKLINWS at 1 Chronicles 12:34 made it to the Bibles of the Greek Orthodox Church.
        Andrew Fincke



        To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: andrew@...: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:16:52 +0300Subject: Re: [lxx] Public Domain Accented Septuagint Text




        Thank you very much for your valuable posts.Probably, it can be generally accepted, that all printed texts and manuscripts written before 1923 are in the public domain. Indeed we are speaking about very ancient texts. But I see that there is also a Copyright over the digital products, although they are produced from public domain sources. (When I make a photograph of a tree, that shot is my property, and the usage of the shot depends on my will. The same is with the texts, specially when it comes to inputing/transcribing the texts by the keyboard to digital form, which may take many years of hard working.)When I place some texts on my website, it is easy to remove them if someone asks this. But if I have worked for 15 years making corrections to the text, such situation will trouble my life and work. This is the main point of my posts about the Public Domain versions. In these cases the copyrighted bible texts are unusable for many of us.Some notes:1. Public Domain = No copyright.(Once the term of a copyright has expired, the formerly copyrighted work enters the public domain and may be freely used or exploited by anyone. The term indicates that these materials are therefore "public property", and available for anyone to use for any purpose.)2. All known web texts (Septuagint) cannot be freely corrected, modified and published.3. All available digital texts are copyrighted, except Hancock's, but this cannot be verified.4. All are using Rahlfs. There is no other text. Even the LXX text used by the Church of Greece is Alfred Rahlfs Septuaginta.5. Maybe even the copyright of the original text of Rahlfs is doubtful.6. The CCAT/CATSS text is not Public Domain, and maybe not permitted for distribution. And the meaning of "private" to this publicly used text is questionable? Complicated situation.7. The http://www.tyndalehouse.co.uk/Fonts/index.htm text is Hancock's.7. The transcription of all the texts of the bible by the keyboard is very difficult work, which takes about 15-25 years. (Transcribing and Proofreading).9. If I want to publish one very old manuscript called the "ORIGINAL" :), then I need to use, modify and publish some non copyrighted text. The copyrighted is unusable in this case.10. It's impossible to OCR (Optical Character Recognition) classical Greek anyway.11. God bless you :)I will be thankful for your corrections and clarifications.RespectfullyAndrew





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      • finckean
        Here s how it works, Andrew! At 1 Sam 9:24 we re told that the cook did something to the thigh of the animal that Saul was about to eat. According to Rahlfs,
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 5, 2008
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          Here's how it works, Andrew!
          At 1 Sam 9:24 we're told that the cook did something to the thigh of
          the animal that Saul was about to eat. According to Rahlfs, which -
          according to you - "everyone uses" - he elevated it. That is he
          UYWSEN it. Taylor's Analytical Lexicon to the Septuagint, p. 437
          tells us that that is the first aorist active inidcative third person
          singular of the word UYOW. But Rahlfs has a note that reads UYWSEN
          Gra.] HYHSEN BO, HREN L. Now "Gra." is short for John Ernest Grabe
          and specifically his four-volume Septuaginta, that appeared between
          1707 and 1720. Grabe died in 1712, and the volume with 1 Samuel was
          the last to appear, edited by William Wigin. "BO" abbreviates Codex
          Vaticanus and manuscripts of the hexaplaric recension (thus O for
          Origen). Taylor, p. 219 tells us that HYHSEN is the first aorist
          active indicative third person singular of EFW "cook". So the
          cook "cooked" the thigh. But "L", that is the Lucianic group, has
          HREN; and according to Taylor that is the first aorist active
          indicative third person singular of AIRW "took". "The cook took the
          thigh". So where did Grabe get "elevated" (UYWSEN)? The Penn CCAT
          file developed by Taylor tells us that the uncial N has that
          reading. But that's an error, since both critical editions of
          Vaticanus, that of Holmes-Parsons and that of Brooke-McLean, agree
          that N has HYHSEN KAI HREN "he cooked and took". But Holmes-Parson
          adds: "UYWSEN in charact. minore Alex." or "Codex Alexandrinus has
          the word in small letters", something that escaped the attention of
          both Swete, when he did his Old Testament in Greek (Vaticanus with
          Alexandrinus variants, 1895) and Brooke-McLean (Vaticanus critical
          edition with a broad range of variants, same title, II,1 1927)
          critical edition of Vaticanusreading. To make a long story short,
          Andrew, you're like the man who grabbed the stick and it bore a hole
          in his hand. Rahlfs is the stick before which you stand in awe from
          citing, or copying. In fact it's loaded with all kinds of rocks and
          pebbles which instead of supporting you when you hop on them, sink
          into the mud and turn to nothing. Rahlfs is just one step in a long
          process of generation (degeneration?) of the printed Septuagint
          text. Even NETS is wrong when it says: "And the cook had boiled"
          with footnote "taken up = RA", since the Greek word in Rahlfs, which
          has practically no manuscript support, means "elevated", and "taken
          up" is the L reading, which Rahlfs relegates to the apparatus.
          Andrew Fincke
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