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RE: [lxx] Public Domain Accented Septuagint Text

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  • andrew fincke
    I ve got the next best thing in my hand, Kevin: Swete s Old Testament in Greek (volume I), which has Vaticanus up top and Alexandrinus variants in the
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 29, 2008
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      I've got the next best thing in my hand, Kevin: Swete's Old Testament in Greek (volume I), which has Vaticanus up top and Alexandrinus variants in the apparatus unencumbered by anything else.
      Andrew Fincke



      To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: kevin@...: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:56:55 -0700Subject: Re: [lxx] Public Domain Accented Septuagint Text




      Quoting Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>:> However, the Church of Greece's LXX text is NOT the LXX text used > most often on the Holy Mountain. The Moscow edition of 1821 is the > prefered LXX text which is mostly a re-print of Codex Alexandrinus.Kevin writes:Peter, do you know of a source for a reprint of the Moscow edition of Alexandrinus? I was looking for a copy, but couldn't find it.My regards,Kevin P. EdgecombBerkeley, California





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    • Louis Sorenson
      Look at Biola s website - the Unbound Bible. http://www.unboundbible.org/index.cfm?method=downloads.showDownloadMain. The file titled Greek OT: LXX [A]
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 29, 2008
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        Look at Biola's website - the Unbound Bible. http://www.unboundbible.org/index.cfm?method=downloads.showDownloadMain.
        The file titled Greek OT: LXX [A] Accented, Roots and Parsing is what you want.

        Louis Sorenson
        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        From: andrew@...
        Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:38:31 +0300
        Subject: Re: [lxx] Public Domain Accented Septuagint Text




















        Thank you Dave, for this very rich website, but it does not contains nor links

        Accented Public Domain Old Greek Testament.



        Here is some information about my research.

        1. Searching the Internet for Public Domain Septuagint Text, I found only one

        such stated text, which is Ralph Hancock's Zipped MS Word 97 file. from

        http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~hancock/antioch.htm.



        The text is described by http://www.kalvesmaki.com to be based on CCAT,



        but when I wrote to mister Hancock about his text, he answered the

        following: "... It (the text) was prepared from an old electronic original

        distributed in the public domain as a BetaCode text file in the early

        1990s ..... I have never seen the CCATT edition put out by the University of

        Pennsylvania, but if it resembles ours I am not surprised. We are dealing

        with an identical text. All participants in this project are happy to have

        produced a public domain document, and don't expect the source to be credited

        in any future use."



        Then I wrote three times again, asking him about the old electronic original

        BetaCode text, but mister Hancock said: 'Don't look a gift horse in the

        mouth.'

        This answer made me suspicious about the source of his text. Furthermore I saw

        that there is other copyrighted text Nestle/Aland New Testament on the

        download section of his website.



        2. I also found an Accented Orthodox Greek Old Testaments placed on

        http://www.myriobiblos.gr/bible/ot/default.asp and on other Orthodox sites,

        but when I asked with e-mails about the Copyright of the texts, there was no

        answer.



        Can anyone enlighten me about the copyright license of the Orthodox texts and

        the Hancock's version, and assure me that the texts of mister Hancock are

        really Public Domain, produced from a legal public domain sources.



        Or, direct me to a website with Accented Public Domain Old Greek Testament.



        Respectfully

        Andrew






















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      • Kevin P. Edgecomb
        Thanks very much, Andrew. I knew about Swete, but really want the full continuous text, warts and all. It looks like it s time for an antiquarian book hunt,
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 30, 2008
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          Thanks very much, Andrew. I knew about Swete, but really want the
          full continuous text, warts and all. It looks like it's time for an
          antiquarian book hunt, as Peter suggested!

          Regards,
          Kevin P. Edgecomb
          Berkeley, California
        • Andrew
          Thank you very much for your valuable posts. Probably, it can be generally accepted, that all printed texts and manuscripts written before 1923 are in the
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 1, 2008
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            Thank you very much for your valuable posts.

            Probably, it can be generally accepted, that all printed texts and manuscripts
            written before 1923 are in the public domain. Indeed we are speaking about
            very ancient texts. But I see that there is also a Copyright over the digital
            products, although they are produced from public domain sources. (When I make
            a photograph of a tree, that shot is my property, and the usage of the shot
            depends on my will. The same is with the texts, specially when it comes to
            inputing/transcribing the texts by the keyboard to digital form, which may
            take many years of hard working.)

            When I place some texts on my website, it is easy to remove them if someone
            asks this. But if I have worked for 15 years making corrections to the text,
            such situation will trouble my life and work. This is the main point of my
            posts about the Public Domain versions. In these cases the copyrighted bible
            texts are unusable for many of us.

            Some notes:
            1. Public Domain = No copyright.
            (Once the term of a copyright has expired, the formerly copyrighted work
            enters the public domain and may be freely used or exploited by anyone. The
            term indicates that these materials are therefore "public property", and
            available for anyone to use for any purpose.)
            2. All known web texts (Septuagint) cannot be freely corrected, modified and
            published.
            3. All available digital texts are copyrighted, except Hancock's, but this
            cannot be verified.
            4. All are using Rahlfs. There is no other text. Even the LXX text used by the
            Church of Greece is Alfred Rahlfs Septuaginta.
            5. Maybe even the copyright of the original text of Rahlfs is doubtful.
            6. The CCAT/CATSS text is not Public Domain, and maybe not permitted for
            distribution. And the meaning of "private" to this publicly used text is
            questionable? Complicated situation.
            7. The http://www.tyndalehouse.co.uk/Fonts/index.htm text is Hancock's.
            7. The transcription of all the texts of the bible by the keyboard is very
            difficult work, which takes about 15-25 years. (Transcribing and
            Proofreading).
            9. If I want to publish one very old manuscript called the "ORIGINAL" :), then
            I need to use, modify and publish some non copyrighted text. The copyrighted
            is unusable in this case.
            10. It's impossible to OCR (Optical Character Recognition) classical Greek
            anyway.
            11. God bless you :)

            I will be thankful for your corrections and clarifications.

            Respectfully
            Andrew
          • andrew fincke
            Dear Andrew, All are using Rahlfs ???? I doubt it. I use Brooke-McLean, Old Testament in Greek, II/1, which came out in 1927; and I don t hear the police
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 1, 2008
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              Dear Andrew,
              "All are using Rahlfs"???? I doubt it. I use Brooke-McLean, Old Testament in Greek, II/1, which came out in 1927; and I don't hear the police knocking at the door. Of course, I don't use the text uncritically, because even they (B and M) don't stick to Vaticanus where the going gets tough - e.g. 2 Samuel 2:5-13, where a mouse ate a corner of the page, and they fill in from Alexandrinus. Or 2 Samuel 17:19, where Vaticanus: EGNWQH (for EGNWSQH "was known") was to repulsive to include. Get a hold of a facsimile - there are a number on the market (several from the 1800's) - and wave it before the judge at your plagiarism trial. You're going to have a tough time convincing me that Smend's invented ETEROKLINWS at 1 Chronicles 12:34 made it to the Bibles of the Greek Orthodox Church.
              Andrew Fincke



              To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: andrew@...: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:16:52 +0300Subject: Re: [lxx] Public Domain Accented Septuagint Text




              Thank you very much for your valuable posts.Probably, it can be generally accepted, that all printed texts and manuscripts written before 1923 are in the public domain. Indeed we are speaking about very ancient texts. But I see that there is also a Copyright over the digital products, although they are produced from public domain sources. (When I make a photograph of a tree, that shot is my property, and the usage of the shot depends on my will. The same is with the texts, specially when it comes to inputing/transcribing the texts by the keyboard to digital form, which may take many years of hard working.)When I place some texts on my website, it is easy to remove them if someone asks this. But if I have worked for 15 years making corrections to the text, such situation will trouble my life and work. This is the main point of my posts about the Public Domain versions. In these cases the copyrighted bible texts are unusable for many of us.Some notes:1. Public Domain = No copyright.(Once the term of a copyright has expired, the formerly copyrighted work enters the public domain and may be freely used or exploited by anyone. The term indicates that these materials are therefore "public property", and available for anyone to use for any purpose.)2. All known web texts (Septuagint) cannot be freely corrected, modified and published.3. All available digital texts are copyrighted, except Hancock's, but this cannot be verified.4. All are using Rahlfs. There is no other text. Even the LXX text used by the Church of Greece is Alfred Rahlfs Septuaginta.5. Maybe even the copyright of the original text of Rahlfs is doubtful.6. The CCAT/CATSS text is not Public Domain, and maybe not permitted for distribution. And the meaning of "private" to this publicly used text is questionable? Complicated situation.7. The http://www.tyndalehouse.co.uk/Fonts/index.htm text is Hancock's.7. The transcription of all the texts of the bible by the keyboard is very difficult work, which takes about 15-25 years. (Transcribing and Proofreading).9. If I want to publish one very old manuscript called the "ORIGINAL" :), then I need to use, modify and publish some non copyrighted text. The copyrighted is unusable in this case.10. It's impossible to OCR (Optical Character Recognition) classical Greek anyway.11. God bless you :)I will be thankful for your corrections and clarifications.RespectfullyAndrew





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            • finckean
              Here s how it works, Andrew! At 1 Sam 9:24 we re told that the cook did something to the thigh of the animal that Saul was about to eat. According to Rahlfs,
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 5, 2008
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                Here's how it works, Andrew!
                At 1 Sam 9:24 we're told that the cook did something to the thigh of
                the animal that Saul was about to eat. According to Rahlfs, which -
                according to you - "everyone uses" - he elevated it. That is he
                UYWSEN it. Taylor's Analytical Lexicon to the Septuagint, p. 437
                tells us that that is the first aorist active inidcative third person
                singular of the word UYOW. But Rahlfs has a note that reads UYWSEN
                Gra.] HYHSEN BO, HREN L. Now "Gra." is short for John Ernest Grabe
                and specifically his four-volume Septuaginta, that appeared between
                1707 and 1720. Grabe died in 1712, and the volume with 1 Samuel was
                the last to appear, edited by William Wigin. "BO" abbreviates Codex
                Vaticanus and manuscripts of the hexaplaric recension (thus O for
                Origen). Taylor, p. 219 tells us that HYHSEN is the first aorist
                active indicative third person singular of EFW "cook". So the
                cook "cooked" the thigh. But "L", that is the Lucianic group, has
                HREN; and according to Taylor that is the first aorist active
                indicative third person singular of AIRW "took". "The cook took the
                thigh". So where did Grabe get "elevated" (UYWSEN)? The Penn CCAT
                file developed by Taylor tells us that the uncial N has that
                reading. But that's an error, since both critical editions of
                Vaticanus, that of Holmes-Parsons and that of Brooke-McLean, agree
                that N has HYHSEN KAI HREN "he cooked and took". But Holmes-Parson
                adds: "UYWSEN in charact. minore Alex." or "Codex Alexandrinus has
                the word in small letters", something that escaped the attention of
                both Swete, when he did his Old Testament in Greek (Vaticanus with
                Alexandrinus variants, 1895) and Brooke-McLean (Vaticanus critical
                edition with a broad range of variants, same title, II,1 1927)
                critical edition of Vaticanusreading. To make a long story short,
                Andrew, you're like the man who grabbed the stick and it bore a hole
                in his hand. Rahlfs is the stick before which you stand in awe from
                citing, or copying. In fact it's loaded with all kinds of rocks and
                pebbles which instead of supporting you when you hop on them, sink
                into the mud and turn to nothing. Rahlfs is just one step in a long
                process of generation (degeneration?) of the printed Septuagint
                text. Even NETS is wrong when it says: "And the cook had boiled"
                with footnote "taken up = RA", since the Greek word in Rahlfs, which
                has practically no manuscript support, means "elevated", and "taken
                up" is the L reading, which Rahlfs relegates to the apparatus.
                Andrew Fincke
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