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The Septuagint and the Masoretic Text

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  • Steven Craig Miller
    To: Karl Saltzman, No matter where the NT authors obtained their quotations (whether it be from the Septuagint, or from somewhere else, such as their own
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 5, 2001
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      To: Karl Saltzman,

      No matter where the NT authors obtained their quotations (whether it be
      from the Septuagint, or from somewhere else, such as their own
      translation), it is a fact that the NT contains a number of passages
      loosely quoted from Hebrew scripture and translated into Greek. If the
      authors of the NT held that fidelity to Hebrew scripture was of upmost
      importance, then one would expect that all of the quotations in the NT from
      Hebrew scripture would be closer to the Hebrew text than the (so called)
      "inferior" Septuagint. And that is simply not the case. It seems to me that
      you have both missed the real problem here. The problem is not that the NT
      quotes from the Septuagint. The notion that the NT authors used the
      Septuagint is merely a hypothesis. The real problem -- the fact of the
      matter -- is that many NT quotations from Hebrew scripture often appear to
      be free translations as opposed to being literal translations of the Hebrew
      text. There's the rub!


      -Steven Craig Miller
      Alton, IL (USA)
      stevencraigmiller@...
      http://members.home.net/stevencraigmiller/
    • Michael Abernathy
      Actually, the situation is more complicated than that. There is some evidence that at least parts of the Septuagint were derived from a variant Hebrew text.
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 5, 2001
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        Actually, the situation is more complicated than that. There is some
        evidence that at least parts of the Septuagint were derived from a variant
        Hebrew text. Some argue that this variant text is more accurate and more
        ancient than the Masoretic text in places (such as Jeremiah). Others argue
        that it does not matter which text was older. They would argue that we
        should accept the text as it was at the time the Canon was established.
        Yours in Christ,
        Michael Abernathy
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Steven Craig Miller" <stevencraigmiller@...>
        To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: "Karl Saltzman" <karl_m_s@...>
        Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 1:02 PM
        Subject: [lxx] The Septuagint and the Masoretic Text


        > To: Karl Saltzman,
        >
        > No matter where the NT authors obtained their quotations (whether it be
        > from the Septuagint, or from somewhere else, such as their own
        > translation), it is a fact that the NT contains a number of passages
        > loosely quoted from Hebrew scripture and translated into Greek. If the
        > authors of the NT held that fidelity to Hebrew scripture was of upmost
        > importance, then one would expect that all of the quotations in the NT
        from
        > Hebrew scripture would be closer to the Hebrew text than the (so called)
        > "inferior" Septuagint. And that is simply not the case. It seems to me
        that
        > you have both missed the real problem here. The problem is not that the NT
        > quotes from the Septuagint. The notion that the NT authors used the
        > Septuagint is merely a hypothesis. The real problem -- the fact of the
        > matter -- is that many NT quotations from Hebrew scripture often appear to
        > be free translations as opposed to being literal translations of the
        Hebrew
        > text. There's the rub!
        >
        >
        > -Steven Craig Miller
        > Alton, IL (USA)
        > stevencraigmiller@...
        > http://members.home.net/stevencraigmiller/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • nelsonchin@yahoo.com
        Also, check out this question and answer between a Messianic Jew and the Christian Think Tank at http://www.webcom.com/~ctt/baduseot.html which talks about
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 6, 2001
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          Also, check out this question and answer between a Messianic Jew and
          the Christian Think Tank at http://www.webcom.com/~ctt/baduseot.html
          which talks about quoting the Old Testament loosely and not
          neccesarily literally word for word or letter by letter back in the
          New Testament time.

          Such practice was considered normative and not something unscholarly
          or disrespectfut to God or the original human authors as the KJV-only
          crowd would have it.

          -Nelson
        • Steven Craig Miller
          To: Michael Abernathy,
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 6, 2001
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            To: Michael Abernathy,

            << Actually, the situation is more complicated than that. There is some
            evidence that at least parts of the Septuagint were derived from a variant
            Hebrew text. Some argue that this variant text is more accurate and more
            ancient than the Masoretic text in places (such as Jeremiah). Others argue
            that it does not matter which text was older. They would argue that we
            should accept the text as it was at the time the Canon was established. >>

            IMO you are confusing "hypotheses" with "evidence." In my last message I wrote:

            << The real problem -- the fact of the matter -- is that many NT quotations
            from Hebrew scripture often appear to be free translations as opposed to
            being literal translations of the Hebrew. >>

            Perhaps I could simplify this even more. The real problem is that NT
            quotations of Hebrew scripture differ from our received Hebrew text. The
            hard evidence is the fact that they differ. Why do they differ? Many
            hypotheses have been offered, and your message presents one possibility.
            These are important hypotheses, but they are important because of the basic
            problem. The basic problem is that NT quotations of Hebrew scripture differ
            from our received Hebrew text.


            -Steven Craig Miller
            Alton, IL (USA)
            stevencraigmiller@...
            http://members.home.net/stevencraigmiller/
          • Steven Craig Miller
            To: Michael Abernathy, Of course, every hypothesis refers to evidence. -Steven Craig Miller Alton, IL (USA)
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 6, 2001
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              To: Michael Abernathy,

              << Actually, I am referring to evidence. >>

              Of course, every hypothesis refers to evidence.


              -Steven Craig Miller
              Alton, IL (USA)
              stevencraigmiller@...
              http://members.home.net/stevencraigmiller/
            • Karl Saltzman
              I suppose that it is once agian proven that the truth rests somewhere between the extremes of any two arguements. Here are some interesting articles that argue
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 7, 2001
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                I suppose that it is once agian proven that the truth
                rests somewhere between the extremes of any two
                arguements. Here are some interesting articles that
                argue in favor of the LXX and against the Masoretic
                Text:

                The Masoretic Text
                http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/mt.htm

                The Septuagint
                http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/lxx.htm

                Dead Sea Scrolls
                http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/qumran.htm

                Jerome
                http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/jerome.htm

                The Errancy of the Masoretic Text and Popular English
                Versions
                http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/errancy.htm

                The Errancy of the Masoretic Text and the KJV
                http://www.christianseparatist.org/sixth/errancy

                Again, I would welcome comments on these articles.

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              • karl_m_s@yahoo.com
                I see that one of my links was incomplete and therefore did not work. I ll try again: The Errancy of the Masoretic Text and the KJV
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 7, 2001
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                  I see that one of my links was incomplete and therefore did not work.
                  I'll try again:

                  The Errancy of the Masoretic Text and the KJV
                  http://www.christianseparatist.org/sixth/errancy
                • karl_m_s@yahoo.com
                  The Errancy of the Masoretic Text and the KJV http://www.christianseparatist.org/sixth/errancy.html
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 7, 2001
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                    The Errancy of the Masoretic Text and the KJV
                    http://www.christianseparatist.org/sixth/errancy.html
                  • Michael Abernathy
                    After a brief reading of these articles I would say that the author overstates the case for the superiority of the Septuagint. It is true that the New
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 7, 2001
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                      After a brief reading of these articles I would say that the author
                      overstates the case for the superiority of the Septuagint. It is true that
                      the New Testament authors most often quoted from a text that resembles the
                      Septuagint (if it was not the Septuagint); however, it is also true that
                      their quotations did not always match any known translation or text. I can
                      agree that there is some slight evidence that the first century Jews may
                      have used a Hebrew text that resembles the Septuagint. However, the author
                      of these articles seems to be operating from an anti-Jewish bias. I would
                      take his arguments with a rather large grain of salt.
                      Yours in Christ,
                      Michael Abernathy
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Karl Saltzman" <karl_m_s@...>
                      To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 3:06 PM
                      Subject: [lxx] The Septuagint and the Masoretic Text


                      > I suppose that it is once agian proven that the truth
                      > rests somewhere between the extremes of any two
                      > arguements. Here are some interesting articles that
                      > argue in favor of the LXX and against the Masoretic
                      > Text:
                      >
                      > The Masoretic Text
                      > http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/mt.htm
                      >
                      > The Septuagint
                      > http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/lxx.htm
                      >
                      > Dead Sea Scrolls
                      > http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/qumran.htm
                      >
                      > Jerome
                      > http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/jerome.htm
                      >
                      > The Errancy of the Masoretic Text and Popular English
                      > Versions
                      > http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/errancy.htm
                      >
                      > The Errancy of the Masoretic Text and the KJV
                      > http://www.christianseparatist.org/sixth/errancy
                      >
                      > Again, I would welcome comments on these articles.
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
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                      $8.95/month.
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                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • steve johnson
                      I apologize if I am out of line in asking this, but when I read this guy s articles that he gives links to in his posts, it seems that he is part of some sort
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 10, 2001
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                        I apologize if I am out of line in asking this, but
                        when I read this guy's articles that he gives links to
                        in his posts, it seems that he is part of some sort of
                        white-supremist group. Very anti-semitic, and adamant
                        about "white people" being special.

                        I am white myself--been this way all my life ;-) but I
                        am thankful to our Heavenly Father for my brothers and
                        sisters of EVERY race, kindred, tongue, and people.
                        My church would not be the same without them. Every
                        Sabbath, I stand in the midst of Hispanics, Blacks,
                        Islanders, Asians, Whites, etc... and I praise God and
                        worship Him with all of my heart. I could not feel
                        the same if I stood in a congregation made up entirely
                        of white people.

                        Steve Johnson

                        --- karl_m_s@... wrote:
                        > The Errancy of the Masoretic Text and the KJV
                        >
                        http://www.christianseparatist.org/sixth/errancy.html
                        >
                        >


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                      • David Hockley
                        ... I think you ll find his post was prefaced with the remark Oh no not again , and we can therefore safely assume he does not condone the content accesible
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 11, 2001
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                          >I apologize if I am out of line in asking this, but
                          >when I read this guy's articles that he gives links to
                          >in his posts, it seems that he is part of some sort of
                          >white-supremist group. Very anti-semitic, and adamant
                          >about "white people" being special.

                          I think you'll find his post was prefaced with the remark
                          "Oh no not again", and we can therefore safely assume
                          he does not condone the content accesible via the link.

                          David Hockley
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