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Re: Why NT topics on LXX?

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  • Chris Weimer
    Oh, I wasn t disagreeing. But the question did have some relation to the Greek text, namely the correlation between Genesis and John. The topic was minimal,
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 30, 2007
      Oh, I wasn't disagreeing. But the question did have some relation to
      the Greek text, namely the correlation between Genesis and John. The
      topic was minimal, and the digression on grammar wasn't still a part
      of the overall digression. While having categories is nice, I find it
      a little achy to be so definite about it. Terri didn't come here
      looking for a Greek grammar answer - but it was egregious enough to
      warrant one, in my opinion. If the question began as a Greek grammar,
      then yes, we can point that person to b-greek, no problem.

      Am I being too lenient here?

      Chris Weimer

      --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Johnson" <mej1960@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Weimer" <Christopher.M.Weimer@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Greetings, Dr. Conrad.
      > >
      > > The extended spiel about John 1:1 is not usual for this group, which
      > > is an academic group focused on the Septuagint and other Old Greek
      > > translations of the Hebrew texts. From my time here, digressions don't
      > > happen too often, and as you can see, it really didn't last long here
      > > either, with only a handful of posts, and not returning until Terri
      > > brought it back up, but where the only responses were concerned with
      > > Greek grammar, something not off-topic here.
      >
      > Actually, questions that are purely grammatical are not always on
      > topic here. In this particular case, I have to agree with Dr. Conrad's
      > implication that the connection to an on-topic topic is tenuous at
      > best. A purely grammatical question would be better placed in Dr.
      > Conrad's own forum.
      >
      > [snip]
      >
    • Matthew Johnson
      ... According to http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/LXXLIST.HTM, you are not the Moderator, so no, you are not being too lenient. As for the Moderators, well, I
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 1, 2007
        --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Weimer" <Christopher.M.Weimer@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Oh, I wasn't disagreeing. But the question did have some relation to
        > the Greek text, namely the correlation between Genesis and John. The
        > topic was minimal, and the digression on grammar wasn't still a part
        > of the overall digression. While having categories is nice,I find it
        > a little achy to be so definite about it. Terri didn't come here
        > looking for a Greek grammar answer - but it was egregious enough to
        > warrant one, in my opinion. If the question began as a Greek
        > grammar, then yes, we can point that person to b-greek, no problem.

        > Am I being too lenient here?

        According to http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/LXXLIST.HTM, you are not
        the Moderator, so no, you are not being too lenient. As for the
        Moderators, well, I would have made the judgment call differently, but
        I think they can make a case for the posts being at least nominally on
        topic. But that would still be more on topic than this one.

        OTOH, I would have had no doubts about the propriety of allowing them
        if each post had maintained the connection between John 1:1 and Gen
        1:1. But this is not what happened, and I was particularly
        disappointed at the confusion concerning morphological and real gender
        in Greek, over whether AUTOU was genitive masculine or neuter. Is it
        really unreasonable to expect that contributors to this forum know
        elementary Greek grammar well before posting?

        Also as for pointing people to B-GREEK, that group is specifically for
        New Testament Greek. But the grammar issues were not at all specific
        to NT Greek. And that group is more explicit about the requirement,
        "While one need not be a Greek scholar to subscribe, one should at
        least be taking the first serious steps in the study of Biblical Greek."

        So unless B-GREEK wants to modify their guidelines, I would not
        recommend sending people there unless they are at least enrolled in a
        1st year Ancient (or NT) Greek class. But this means I don't really
        know where to send them. Perhaps Dr. Conrad can chime in here.
      • Sean Rhoades
        Dr. Conrad Well there is more to it underneath the surface, I was reading how Sirach talked about this female personification of wisdom, and how wisdom was
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 2, 2007
          Dr. Conrad
          Well there is more to it underneath the surface, I was reading how Sirach talked about this female personification of wisdom, and how wisdom was made in the beginning by God, and then there's Genesis 1:26, 2:22, 3:21, and 5:1-2 also Proverbs chapter 8. So I wondered if the grammar in John 1:1 allowed for the view I presented in Sean 1:1. If the grammar works than perhaps we can view the Word as a kind of heavenly mother.

          Sean


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@...>
          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:58:57 PM
          Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?














          On Nov 30, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Sean Rhoades wrote:

          > Hi Dr. Conrad

          > The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about

          > the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.

          >

          That's hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2,

          2007 11:31:31 PM EDT):

          =====

          Dear Lxx group

          Because many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,

          I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute

          "Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense of

          its original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve is

          Adam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God in

          that he too comes out from God.



          Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Woman

          was with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.

          =======

          but you raised it later in a follow-up on the next day (November 3,

          2007 10:48:42 PM EDT), citing KJV texts.



          My problem is simply that I joined the list expecting some

          illuminating discussion of the LXX version of the OT. If that's not

          what it's going to be, I don't need to stick around.



          Carl W. Conrad

          Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)

          >

          > Sean

          >

          > ----- Original Message ----

          > From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@artsci. wustl.edu>

          > To: Lxx@yahoogroups. com

          > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM

          > Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?

          >

          > Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters

          >

          > that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight

          >

          > of this forum?

          >

          > Carl W. Conrad

          >

          > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)

          >

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        • Bill Ross
          Sean, you have inadvertently touched on something I have pondered in regards to the LXX background of a familiar NT discussion. Paul, in Romans 7, seems to be
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 2, 2007
            Sean, you have inadvertently touched on something I have pondered in regards
            to the LXX background of a familiar NT discussion.

            Paul, in Romans 7, seems to be taking issue with Psalm 1 - though he uses a
            different word for "delight."

            Apparently the Greek philosophers believed that it was impossible for a
            person to act differently from what they believed to be the highest good,
            and so a philosopher had to engage in reasoning to find the highest good,
            and this would make them better people. That is, ignorance spawns
            wickedness, and wisdom spawns good behavior. This is the background of
            Socrates' "unexamined life" comment.

            Proverbs seems to also imply that the Torah, if meditated upon, would bring
            about upright behavior, and thus serve as a veritable "tree of life."

            Psalm 1, as well, sees the Torah as producing good.

            But Romans 7 seems to be attacking this idea. For Paul, the Torah
            (instruction) actually prompts sin, which lives in the muscle tissue:

            Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my
            mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my
            members.

            The question/issue is... did Paul have Psalm 1 or the proverbs in mind when
            he objected to the popular philosophical ideas of the time that knowledge of
            the good produces actions of the good? Or was he just objecting to Socrates,
            and not the Psalms and Proverbs?

            Bill Ross
            http://bibleshockers.com
            Bible Shockers! A collection of disturbing observations of and about the
            Bible.



            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "Sean Rhoades" <rhoadess@...>
            Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:10 AM
            To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?

            > Dr. Conrad
            > Well there is more to it underneath the surface, I was reading how
            > Sirach talked about this female personification of wisdom, and how wisdom
            > was made in the beginning by God, and then there's Genesis 1:26, 2:22,
            > 3:21, and 5:1-2 also Proverbs chapter 8. So I wondered if the grammar in
            > John 1:1 allowed for the view I presented in Sean 1:1. If the grammar
            > works than perhaps we can view the Word as a kind of heavenly mother.
            >
            > Sean
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@...>
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:58:57 PM
            > Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Nov 30, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Sean Rhoades wrote:
            >
            >> Hi Dr. Conrad
            >
            >> The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about
            >
            >> the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.
            >
            >>
            >
            > That's hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2,
            >
            > 2007 11:31:31 PM EDT):
            >
            > =====
            >
            > Dear Lxx group
            >
            > Because many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,
            >
            > I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute
            >
            > "Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense of
            >
            > its original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve is
            >
            > Adam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God in
            >
            > that he too comes out from God.
            >
            >
            >
            > Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Woman
            >
            > was with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.
            >
            > =======
            >
            > but you raised it later in a follow-up on the next day (November 3,
            >
            > 2007 10:48:42 PM EDT), citing KJV texts.
            >
            >
            >
            > My problem is simply that I joined the list expecting some
            >
            > illuminating discussion of the LXX version of the OT. If that's not
            >
            > what it's going to be, I don't need to stick around.
            >
            >
            >
            > Carl W. Conrad
            >
            > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
            >
            >>
            >
            >> Sean
            >
            >>
            >
            >> ----- Original Message ----
            >
            >> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@artsci. wustl.edu>
            >
            >> To: Lxx@yahoogroups. com
            >
            >> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM
            >
            >> Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
            >
            >>
            >
            >> Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
            >
            >>
            >
            >> that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
            >
            >>
            >
            >> of this forum?
            >
            >>
            >
            >> Carl W. Conrad
            >
            >>
            >
            >> Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
            >
            >>
            >
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            >
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            >
            >> font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text-
            >
            >> align:right; padding-right: .5em;}
            >
            >> #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
            >
            >> font-weight: bold;}
            >
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            >
            >> text-decoration: none;}
            >
            >>
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            >
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            >>
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            >
            >> color:#999;font- size:77%; }
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            >
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            >
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            >> #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
            >
            >> background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}
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            >
            >> padding:8px 0;}
            >
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            >
            >> font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size:
            >> 100%;line-
            >
            >> height:122%; }
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            >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
            >
            >> text-decoration: none;}
            >
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            >
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            >
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            >
            >> font-size:120% ;}
            >
            >> blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
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            >
            >> -->
            >
            >>
            >
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            > <!--
            >
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            > color:#999;font-size:77%;}
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            > font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
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          • Matthew Johnson
            ... This is hermeneutics rather than an LXX topic. And in particular, it requires rather involved hermeneutics to explain why no, Paul does NOT take issue
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 13, 2007
              --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...> wrote:

              > Sean, you have inadvertently touched on
              > something I have pondered in regards to the LXX
              > background of a familiar NT discussion.

              This is hermeneutics rather than an LXX topic. And
              in particular, it requires rather involved
              hermeneutics to explain why no, Paul does NOT
              "take issue" with any of the OT approbations of
              the Law.

              > Paul, in Romans 7, seems to be taking issue with
              > Psalm 1 - though he uses a different word for
              > "delight."

              No. It is not the Psalm itself, nor the Law itself
              he takes issue with. Rather, it was to warn
              against that interpretation of his previous
              argument that he added the cautionary Rom
              7:7-8. Rather than blame th eLaw itself for sin,
              he d4escribes how sin took "unfair advantage" of
              the Law to subvert the very purpose of the
              Law. But it is still sin, not the Law, that is
              responsible for this subversion.

              > Apparently the Greek philosophers believed that
              > it was impossible for a person to act
              > differently from what they believed to be the
              > highest good,

              This is too hasty a generalization. Yes,
              _Socrates_ believed this, and Plato was still very
              much under his 'spell', so never did come up with
              an explanation of how evil can persist despite
              enlightenment concerning the highest good. But
              Aristotle was quite clear that he believed thiw as
              a weakness of both Socrates and Plato.

              > and so a philosopher had to engage in reasoning
              > to find the highest good, and this would make
              > them better people. That is, ignorance spawns
              > wickedness, and wisdom spawns good
              > behavior. This is the background of Socrates'
              > "unexamined life" comment.

              But Socrates's notion of what 'wisdom' is, and
              even of what 'reasoning' is, is not the same as in
              the LXX translator's understanding of Proverbs. Why, the notion
              differs even between (historical) Socrates and Plato.

              > Proverbs seems to also imply that the Torah, if
              > meditated upon, would bring about upright
              > behavior, and thus serve as a veritable "tree of
              > life."

              To say that the one is the cause of the other is a
              questionable reading of Proverbs. A great deal
              more than that is required for "upgright
              behavior". It also requires great dedication _to_
              that "upgright behavior" and to wisdom, on the
              part of the reader: PERIXARAKWSON in Pro 4:8 is
              about _hard_ work building a stockade or
              besieging. Likewise with WX QESAUROUS EJEREUNHSHiS
              in Pro 2:4: we are talking about hard work.

              [snip]
            • Sean Rhoades
              Hi Bill, I didn t catch this post, I ll try to keep it within the scope of the LXX. In Sirach 1-2, 4, Wisdom doesn t come to a person immediately, but after
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 15, 2007
                Hi Bill, I didn't catch this post, I'll try to keep it within the scope of the LXX. In Sirach 1-2, 4, Wisdom doesn't come to a person immediately, but after that person has been somewhat proved by her. She puts them through difficult times first, then when she can trust the person, she helps them out in difficult times. So to a person who knows the Law, without deeper study, through reason (Wisdom), it would be difficult to see it as Hillel did, and it would be even more difficult to apply if one only saw the Law as a bunch of rituals and laws which one has to obey. I believe Hillel and Sirach recognized, by reason, that the Law had more to do with love:

                "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

                Romans 2:13-15 KJV (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

                In Romans 2:13-15, Paul may be referring to what Socrates and others came to know, that when a person uses reason, rather than relying on his base desires, only then can he be righteous (see Justin Martyr's the Dialogue with Trypho the Jew). I personally believe Confucius achieved this as well, he found and applied the Law through Reason. It requires thought for one to place himself in his neighbor's shoes, and then self-control to actually apply that Golden rule. In Romans chapter 7, Paul is addressing the Jewish Christians, who knew the Law, but whom likely only looked at it as rituals and rules from God (at least before they became Christians), but in Romans Chapter 8, he goes on to show that through belief in Jesus Messiah (who I believe is this Wisdom, and this Reason, and this Word of God, as is spoken of in the LXX Apocrypha, Proverbs, and Psalms) that Wisdom, comes to one immediately without all the testing and deep study. But just because one
                reasons things out, or has Reason, doesn't mean they will actually apply that reason correctly, and so, in order to keep her, one has to apply it through trails of the flesh (avoid those sinful base desires) as is pointed out in the book of James chapter 1, this idea of getting and keeping Wisdom is also pointed out in Sirach Chapters 1,2&4. Sirach also points out that wisdom is given to one in their mother's womb, but how can we know if that applies to us, individually? We don't! We do know what's right and wrong, from the Law, but are we willing to apply it, even in very difficult situations? If we are, and we do it all our lives, then, and only then, can we say we were born with this wisdom. Is that then Grace? By the way, Romans 1:18-32, seems to be a reference to the Wisdom of Solomon chapter 13.


                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Bill Ross <BillRoss@...>
                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 11:25:26 AM
                Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?

                Sean, you have inadvertently touched on something I have pondered in regards
                to the LXX background of a familiar NT discussion.

                Paul, in Romans 7, seems to be taking issue with Psalm 1 - though he uses a
                different word for "delight."

                Apparently the Greek philosophers believed that it was impossible for a
                person to act differently from what they believed to be the highest good,
                and so a philosopher had to engage in reasoning to find the highest good,
                and this would make them better people. That is, ignorance spawns
                wickedness, and wisdom spawns good behavior. This is the background of
                Socrates' "unexamined life" comment.

                Proverbs seems to also imply that the Torah, if meditated upon, would bring
                about upright behavior, and thus serve as a veritable "tree of life."

                Psalm 1, as well, sees the Torah as producing good.

                But Romans 7 seems to be attacking this idea. For Paul, the Torah
                (instruction) actually prompts sin, which lives in the muscle tissue:

                Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my
                mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my
                members.

                The question/issue is... did Paul have Psalm 1 or the proverbs in mind when
                he objected to the popular philosophical ideas of the time that knowledge of
                the good produces actions of the good? Or was he just objecting to Socrates,
                and not the Psalms and Proverbs?

                Bill Ross
                http://bibleshocker s.com
                Bible Shockers! A collection of disturbing observations of and about the
                Bible.

                ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
                From: "Sean Rhoades" <rhoadess@yahoo. com>
                Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:10 AM
                To: <lxx@yahoogroups. com>
                Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?

                > Dr. Conrad
                > Well there is more to it underneath the surface, I was reading how
                > Sirach talked about this female personification of wisdom, and how wisdom
                > was made in the beginning by God, and then there's Genesis 1:26, 2:22,
                > 3:21, and 5:1-2 also Proverbs chapter 8. So I wondered if the grammar in
                > John 1:1 allowed for the view I presented in Sean 1:1. If the grammar
                > works than perhaps we can view the Word as a kind of heavenly mother.
                >
                > Sean
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@artsci. wustl.edu>
                > To: lxx@yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:58:57 PM
                > Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Nov 30, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Sean Rhoades wrote:
                >
                >> Hi Dr. Conrad
                >
                >> The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about
                >
                >> the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.
                >
                >>
                >
                > That's hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2,
                >
                > 2007 11:31:31 PM EDT):
                >
                > =====
                >
                > Dear Lxx group
                >
                > Because many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,
                >
                > I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute
                >
                > "Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense of
                >
                > its original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve is
                >
                > Adam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God in
                >
                > that he too comes out from God.
                >
                >
                >
                > Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Woman
                >
                > was with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.
                >
                > =======
                >
                > but you raised it later in a follow-up on the next day (November 3,
                >
                > 2007 10:48:42 PM EDT), citing KJV texts.
                >
                >
                >
                > My problem is simply that I joined the list expecting some
                >
                > illuminating discussion of the LXX version of the OT. If that's not
                >
                > what it's going to be, I don't need to stick around.
                >
                >
                >
                > Carl W. Conrad
                >
                > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                >
                >>
                >
                >> Sean
                >
                >>
                >
                >> ----- Original Message ----
                >
                >> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@artsci. wustl.edu>
                >
                >> To: Lxx@yahoogroups. com
                >
                >> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM
                >
                >> Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
                >
                >>
                >
                >> Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
                >
                >>
                >
                >> that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
                >
                >>
                >
                >> of this forum?
                >
                >>
                >
                >> Carl W. Conrad
                >
                >>
                >
                >> Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                >
                >>
                >
                >> <!--
                >
                >>
                >
                >> #ygrp-mkp{
                >
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                >
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                >
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                >
                >> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                >
                >> color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height:
                >> 122%;margin:
                >
                >> 10px 0px;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-mkp #ads{
                >
                >> margin-bottom: 10px;}
                >
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                >
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                >
                >> color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}
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                >
                >> font-family: Arial;}
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                >
                >> margin:10px 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
                >
                >> margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}
                >
                >> -->
                >
                >>
                >
                >> <!--
                >
                >>
                >
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean,
                >
                >> sans-serif;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica,
                >
                >> clean, sans-serif;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-text{
                >
                >> font-family: Georgia;
                >
                >> }
                >
                >> #ygrp-text p{
                >
                >> margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                >
                >> font-family: Arial;
                >
                >> clear:both;}
                >
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                >
                >> padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size: 77%;margin: 0;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-vitnav a{
                >
                >> padding:0 1px;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-actbar{
                >
                >> clear:both;margin: 25px 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text-
                >
                >> align:right; }
                >
                >> #ygrp-actbar .left{
                >
                >> float:left;white- space:nowrap; }
                >
                >> .bld{font-weight: bold;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-grft{
                >
                >> font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-ft{
                >
                >> font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px solid #666;
                >
                >> padding:5px 0;
                >
                >> }
                >
                >> #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                >
                >> padding-bottom: 10px;}
                >
                >>
                >
                >> #ygrp-vital{
                >
                >> background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                >
                >> font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333; text-
                >
                >> transform:uppercase ;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-vital ul{
                >
                >> padding:0;margin: 2px 0;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-vital ul li{
                >
                >> list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
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                >> }
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                >
                >> font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text-
                >
                >> align:right; padding-right: .5em;}
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                >> #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                >
                >> font-weight: bold;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-vital a{
                >
                >> text-decoration: none;}
                >
                >>
                >
                >> #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                >
                >> text-decoration: underline; }
                >
                >>
                >
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                >
                >> color:#999;font- size:77%; }
                >
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                >
                >> padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                >
                >> padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }
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                >
                >> background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}
                >
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                >
                >> padding:8px 0;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                >
                >> font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size:
                >> 100%;line-
                >
                >> height:122%; }
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                >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                >
                >> text-decoration: none;}
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                >
                >> margin:0;}
                >
                >> o{font-size: 0;}
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                >
                >> margin:0 0 0 0;}
                >
                >> #ygrp-text tt{
                >
                >> font-size:120% ;}
                >
                >> blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
                >
                >> .replbq{margin: 4;}
                >
                >> -->
                >
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • finckean
                Dear Chris and Carl, If we assume that In the beginning was the word... has some relevance to the Christmas story, then we might ponder an analogous tale in
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 29, 2007
                  Dear Chris and Carl,

                  If we assume that "In the beginning was the word..." has some relevance
                  to the Christmas story, then we might ponder an analogous tale in the
                  Septuagint: the birth of Samuel, that was likewise marked by wonder
                  (barren virgin? giving birth). The only difference is that after the
                  birth Hannah declined to accompany her husband to Shiloh to make the
                  offering (1 Sam 2:22), while Mary and Joseph scooted right off on New
                  Year's eve ("8 days after the birth" Luke 2:21-22) to visit the temple.
                  Elkana didn't mind Hannah's refusal to go and - in fact - said: "Do what
                  you want! ... As long as the Lord stands His word!" That's the Hebrew,
                  and what the Lord's word is isn't clear. The Septuagint improves the
                  sentence to "May the Lord stand everything going forth from your
                  mouth!", which apparently refers to the pre-conception vow Hannah made
                  about Samuel being a Nazirite (1:11). But that vow was alot more than
                  ONE WORD, so apparently what Elkana meant was "May the Lord stand what
                  went forth from your womb!" - that is, the baby Samuel, who was still to
                  fragile to make the trip. But how do we get from "His word" to "what
                  went forth from your mouth" to "what went forth from your womb"? If you
                  take εξελθον "going forth" and parse it to its first-person
                  root, you get εξερχομαι, which is phonetically similar to
                  εκ ρημα "from word" (cf. ρχμαι to ρημα).
                  But in Hebrew ρχμα is RECHMA "her womb", so that "word" merges
                  with "womb" and what went forth from "her mouth" with what went forth
                  from "her womb". (Cf. also ρη with PE "mouth" in Hebrew!) This
                  ρημα grew into a λογος by the time of the Luke story,
                  that is into an entity sufficiently mature to make the trip to
                  Jerusalem. See Luke 2:36: "And Hannah was a prophetess advanced in
                  days".

                  Andrew Fincke
                  --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:54 PM, Chris Weimer wrote:
                  >
                  > > The New Testament makes use of the Septuagint. As long as the
                  > > questions are directly relevant to the LXX, I personally see no
                  harm.
                  > > Within reason, no?
                  > >
                  > I've no problem with that; where the text of the LXX can illuminate
                  > questions raised in a NT text, that's fine -- but the lengthy thread
                  on
                  > John 1:1 seemed to me to have a very tenuous or tangential
                  > relationship to the LXX at best and to be sustained not by light
                  > thrown by the LXX on questions about the LOGOS, but by the
                  > never-ending fascination with the text of John 1:1 itself.
                  > >
                  > > Chris Weimer
                  > >
                  > > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Carl W. Conrad" cwconrad@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on
                  matters
                  > > > that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any
                  oversight
                  > > > of this forum?
                  > > >
                  > > > Carl W. Conrad
                  > > > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                  > >
                  >
                  > Carl W. Conrad
                  > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                  >
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