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Why NT topics on LXX?

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  • Carl W. Conrad
    Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn t there any oversight of this forum? Carl
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 29, 2007
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      Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
      that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
      of this forum?

      Carl W. Conrad
      Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
    • Chris Weimer
      The New Testament makes use of the Septuagint. As long as the questions are directly relevant to the LXX, I personally see no harm. Within reason, no? Chris
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 29, 2007
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        The New Testament makes use of the Septuagint. As long as the
        questions are directly relevant to the LXX, I personally see no harm.
        Within reason, no?

        Chris Weimer

        --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@...> wrote:
        >
        > Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
        > that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
        > of this forum?
        >
        > Carl W. Conrad
        > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
        >
      • Reader Arsenios
        ... Carl! How good to see you here! Believe it or not, I just lurk [mostly] on this forum! Have you had a chance to look at Papootsis translation of the lxx?
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 29, 2007
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          --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@...> wrote:
          >
          > Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
          > that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
          > of this forum?

          > Carl W. Conrad
          > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)

          Carl!

          How good to see you here!

          Believe it or not, I just lurk [mostly] on this forum!

          Have you had a chance to look at Papootsis' translation of the lxx?

          Reader Arsenios
          [George Blaisdell]
        • Adam P.
          DISCUSSION OF THE NT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE MOST OF US BECAME AWARE AND INTERESTED IN THE LXX BECAUSE OF ITS SPECIAL RELATION TO THE NT. PERSONALLY IF THERE WAS
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 29, 2007
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            DISCUSSION OF THE NT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE MOST OF US
            BECAME AWARE AND INTERESTED IN THE LXX BECAUSE OF
            ITS SPECIAL RELATION TO THE NT. PERSONALLY IF THERE
            WAS NO HISTORICAL AND TEXTUAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTING
            THE IDEA OF THE SEPTUAGINT BEING USED BY EARLY
            CHRISTIANS AND THE APOSTLES, THE LXX WOULD BE
            IRRELEVANT TO THOSE LIKE ME IN SEARCH OF GOD'S TRUE
            WORD.IN OTHER WORDS THE LXX ONLY HAS MY FASCINATION
            BECAUSE OF THE NT. SOLI GRACIA, ADAM
          • Carl W. Conrad
            ... I ve no problem with that; where the text of the LXX can illuminate questions raised in a NT text, that s fine -- but the lengthy thread on John 1:1 seemed
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 30, 2007
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              On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:54 PM, Chris Weimer wrote:

              > The New Testament makes use of the Septuagint. As long as the
              > questions are directly relevant to the LXX, I personally see no harm.
              > Within reason, no?
              >
              I've no problem with that; where the text of the LXX can illuminate
              questions raised in a NT text, that's fine -- but the lengthy thread on
              John 1:1 seemed to me to have a very tenuous or tangential
              relationship to the LXX at best and to be sustained not by light
              thrown by the LXX on questions about the LOGOS, but by the
              never-ending fascination with the text of John 1:1 itself.
              >
              > Chris Weimer
              >
              > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
              > > that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
              > > of this forum?
              > >
              > > Carl W. Conrad
              > > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
              >

              Carl W. Conrad
              Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
            • Sean Rhoades
              Hi Dr. Conrad The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach. Sean ... From:
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 30, 2007
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                Hi Dr. Conrad
                The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.

                Sean

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@...>
                To: Lxx@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM
                Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?














                Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters

                that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight

                of this forum?



                Carl W. Conrad

                Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)














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              • Carl W. Conrad
                ... That s hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2, 2007 11:31:31 PM EDT): ===== Dear Lxx group Because many of you are scholars and
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 30, 2007
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                  On Nov 30, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Sean Rhoades wrote:
                  > Hi Dr. Conrad
                  > The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about
                  > the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.
                  >
                  That's hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2,
                  2007 11:31:31 PM EDT):
                  =====
                  Dear Lxx group
                  Because many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,
                  I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute
                  "Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense of
                  its original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve is
                  Adam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God in
                  that he too comes out from God.

                  Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Woman
                  was with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.
                  =======
                  but you raised it later in a follow-up on the next day (November 3,
                  2007 10:48:42 PM EDT), citing KJV texts.

                  My problem is simply that I joined the list expecting some
                  illuminating discussion of the LXX version of the OT. If that's not
                  what it's going to be, I don't need to stick around.

                  Carl W. Conrad
                  Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                  >
                  > Sean
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@...>
                  > To: Lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM
                  > Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
                  >
                  > Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
                  >
                  > that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
                  >
                  > of this forum?
                  >
                  > Carl W. Conrad
                  >
                  > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                  >
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                • andrew fincke
                  I think you re confusing Adam with a dame . Andrew Fincke To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: cwconrad@artsci.wustl.eduDate: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:58:57
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 30, 2007
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                    I think you're confusing "Adam" with "a dame".
                    Andrew Fincke


                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: cwconrad@...: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:58:57 -0500Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?




                    On Nov 30, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Sean Rhoades wrote:> Hi Dr. Conrad> The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about > the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.>That's hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2, 2007 11:31:31 PM EDT):=====Dear Lxx groupBecause many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute"Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense ofits original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve isAdam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God inthat he too comes out from God.Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Womanwas with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.=======but you raised it later in a follow-up on the next day (November 3, 2007 10:48:42 PM EDT), citing KJV texts.My problem is simply that I joined the list expecting some illuminating discussion of the LXX version of the OT. If that's not what it's going to be, I don't need to stick around.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Ret)>> Sean>> ----- Original Message ----> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@...>> To: Lxx@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM> Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?>> Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters>> that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight>> of this forum?>> Carl W. Conrad>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)>> <!-->> #ygrp-mkp{> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding: > 0px 14px;}> #ygrp-mkp hr{> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}> #ygrp-mkp #hd{> color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin: > 10px 0px;}> #ygrp-mkp #ads{> margin-bottom:10px;}> #ygrp-mkp .ad{> padding:0 0;}> #ygrp-mkp .ad a{> color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}> -->>> <!-->> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{> font-family:Arial;}> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{> margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{> margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}> -->>> <!-->> #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, > sans-serif;}> #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}> #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, > clean, sans-serif;}> #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}> #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}> #ygrp-text{> font-family:Georgia;> }> #ygrp-text p{> margin:0 0 1em 0;}> #ygrp-tpmsgs{> font-family:Arial;> clear:both;}> #ygrp-vitnav{> padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}> #ygrp-vitnav a{> padding:0 1px;}> #ygrp-actbar{> clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text- > align:right;}> #ygrp-actbar .left{> float:left;white-space:nowrap;}> .bld{font-weight:bold;}> #ygrp-grft{> font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}> #ygrp-ft{> font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;> padding:5px 0;> }> #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{> padding-bottom:10px;}>> #ygrp-vital{> background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}> #ygrp-vital #vithd{> font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text- > transform:uppercase;}> #ygrp-vital ul{> padding:0;margin:2px 0;}> #ygrp-vital ul li{> list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;> }> #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{> font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text- > align:right;padding-right:.5em;}> #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{> font-weight:bold;}> #ygrp-vital a{> text-decoration:none;}>> #ygrp-vital a:hover{> text-decoration:underline;}>> #ygrp-sponsor #hd{> color:#999;font-size:77%;}> #ygrp-sponsor #ov{> padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}> #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{> padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{> list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{> text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}> #ygrp-sponsor #nc{> background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}> #ygrp-sponsor .ad{> padding:8px 0;}> #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{> font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line- > height:122%;}> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{> text-decoration:none;}> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{> text-decoration:underline;}> #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{> margin:0;}> o{font-size:0;}> .MsoNormal{> margin:0 0 0 0;}> #ygrp-text tt{> font-size:120%;}> blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}> .replbq{margin:4;}> -->>






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                  • Chris Weimer
                    Greetings, Dr. Conrad. The extended spiel about John 1:1 is not usual for this group, which is an academic group focused on the Septuagint and other Old Greek
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 30, 2007
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                      Greetings, Dr. Conrad.

                      The extended spiel about John 1:1 is not usual for this group, which
                      is an academic group focused on the Septuagint and other Old Greek
                      translations of the Hebrew texts. From my time here, digressions don't
                      happen too often, and as you can see, it really didn't last long here
                      either, with only a handful of posts, and not returning until Terri
                      brought it back up, but where the only responses were concerned with
                      Greek grammar, something not off-topic here.

                      As you should be able to tell, most of the posts are indeed pertaining
                      to the LXX and its relevance to the Jewish Scriptures, and I do not
                      foresee in the future a departure from that en masse. I humbly ask you
                      to ignore the digressions, as they are not that common, and feel free
                      to stick around and even contribute, if you wish.

                      I am not speaking as a moderator, but as merely a concerned member.

                      All the best,

                      Chris Weimer
                      U. Memphis


                      --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Nov 30, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Sean Rhoades wrote:
                      > > Hi Dr. Conrad
                      > > The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about
                      > > the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.
                      > >
                      > That's hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2,
                      > 2007 11:31:31 PM EDT):
                      > =====
                      > Dear Lxx group
                      > Because many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,
                      > I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute
                      > "Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense of
                      > its original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve is
                      > Adam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God in
                      > that he too comes out from God.
                      >
                      > Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Woman
                      > was with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.
                      > =======
                      > but you raised it later in a follow-up on the next day (November 3,
                      > 2007 10:48:42 PM EDT), citing KJV texts.
                      >
                      > My problem is simply that I joined the list expecting some
                      > illuminating discussion of the LXX version of the OT. If that's not
                      > what it's going to be, I don't need to stick around.
                      >
                      > Carl W. Conrad
                      > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                      > >
                      > > Sean
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message ----
                      > > From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@...>
                      > > To: Lxx@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM
                      > > Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
                      > >
                      > > Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
                      > >
                      > > that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
                      > >
                      > > of this forum?
                      > >
                      > > Carl W. Conrad
                      > >
                      > > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                    • Matthew Johnson
                      ... Actually, questions that are purely grammatical are not always on topic here. In this particular case, I have to agree with Dr. Conrad s implication that
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 30, 2007
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                        --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Weimer" <Christopher.M.Weimer@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Greetings, Dr. Conrad.
                        >
                        > The extended spiel about John 1:1 is not usual for this group, which
                        > is an academic group focused on the Septuagint and other Old Greek
                        > translations of the Hebrew texts. From my time here, digressions don't
                        > happen too often, and as you can see, it really didn't last long here
                        > either, with only a handful of posts, and not returning until Terri
                        > brought it back up, but where the only responses were concerned with
                        > Greek grammar, something not off-topic here.

                        Actually, questions that are purely grammatical are not always on
                        topic here. In this particular case, I have to agree with Dr. Conrad's
                        implication that the connection to an on-topic topic is tenuous at
                        best. A purely grammatical question would be better placed in Dr.
                        Conrad's own forum.

                        [snip]
                      • Chris Weimer
                        Oh, I wasn t disagreeing. But the question did have some relation to the Greek text, namely the correlation between Genesis and John. The topic was minimal,
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 30, 2007
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                          Oh, I wasn't disagreeing. But the question did have some relation to
                          the Greek text, namely the correlation between Genesis and John. The
                          topic was minimal, and the digression on grammar wasn't still a part
                          of the overall digression. While having categories is nice, I find it
                          a little achy to be so definite about it. Terri didn't come here
                          looking for a Greek grammar answer - but it was egregious enough to
                          warrant one, in my opinion. If the question began as a Greek grammar,
                          then yes, we can point that person to b-greek, no problem.

                          Am I being too lenient here?

                          Chris Weimer

                          --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Johnson" <mej1960@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Weimer" <Christopher.M.Weimer@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Greetings, Dr. Conrad.
                          > >
                          > > The extended spiel about John 1:1 is not usual for this group, which
                          > > is an academic group focused on the Septuagint and other Old Greek
                          > > translations of the Hebrew texts. From my time here, digressions don't
                          > > happen too often, and as you can see, it really didn't last long here
                          > > either, with only a handful of posts, and not returning until Terri
                          > > brought it back up, but where the only responses were concerned with
                          > > Greek grammar, something not off-topic here.
                          >
                          > Actually, questions that are purely grammatical are not always on
                          > topic here. In this particular case, I have to agree with Dr. Conrad's
                          > implication that the connection to an on-topic topic is tenuous at
                          > best. A purely grammatical question would be better placed in Dr.
                          > Conrad's own forum.
                          >
                          > [snip]
                          >
                        • Matthew Johnson
                          ... According to http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/LXXLIST.HTM, you are not the Moderator, so no, you are not being too lenient. As for the Moderators, well, I
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 1, 2007
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                            --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Weimer" <Christopher.M.Weimer@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Oh, I wasn't disagreeing. But the question did have some relation to
                            > the Greek text, namely the correlation between Genesis and John. The
                            > topic was minimal, and the digression on grammar wasn't still a part
                            > of the overall digression. While having categories is nice,I find it
                            > a little achy to be so definite about it. Terri didn't come here
                            > looking for a Greek grammar answer - but it was egregious enough to
                            > warrant one, in my opinion. If the question began as a Greek
                            > grammar, then yes, we can point that person to b-greek, no problem.

                            > Am I being too lenient here?

                            According to http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/LXXLIST.HTM, you are not
                            the Moderator, so no, you are not being too lenient. As for the
                            Moderators, well, I would have made the judgment call differently, but
                            I think they can make a case for the posts being at least nominally on
                            topic. But that would still be more on topic than this one.

                            OTOH, I would have had no doubts about the propriety of allowing them
                            if each post had maintained the connection between John 1:1 and Gen
                            1:1. But this is not what happened, and I was particularly
                            disappointed at the confusion concerning morphological and real gender
                            in Greek, over whether AUTOU was genitive masculine or neuter. Is it
                            really unreasonable to expect that contributors to this forum know
                            elementary Greek grammar well before posting?

                            Also as for pointing people to B-GREEK, that group is specifically for
                            New Testament Greek. But the grammar issues were not at all specific
                            to NT Greek. And that group is more explicit about the requirement,
                            "While one need not be a Greek scholar to subscribe, one should at
                            least be taking the first serious steps in the study of Biblical Greek."

                            So unless B-GREEK wants to modify their guidelines, I would not
                            recommend sending people there unless they are at least enrolled in a
                            1st year Ancient (or NT) Greek class. But this means I don't really
                            know where to send them. Perhaps Dr. Conrad can chime in here.
                          • Sean Rhoades
                            Dr. Conrad Well there is more to it underneath the surface, I was reading how Sirach talked about this female personification of wisdom, and how wisdom was
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 2, 2007
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                              Dr. Conrad
                              Well there is more to it underneath the surface, I was reading how Sirach talked about this female personification of wisdom, and how wisdom was made in the beginning by God, and then there's Genesis 1:26, 2:22, 3:21, and 5:1-2 also Proverbs chapter 8. So I wondered if the grammar in John 1:1 allowed for the view I presented in Sean 1:1. If the grammar works than perhaps we can view the Word as a kind of heavenly mother.

                              Sean


                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@...>
                              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:58:57 PM
                              Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?














                              On Nov 30, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Sean Rhoades wrote:

                              > Hi Dr. Conrad

                              > The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about

                              > the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.

                              >

                              That's hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2,

                              2007 11:31:31 PM EDT):

                              =====

                              Dear Lxx group

                              Because many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,

                              I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute

                              "Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense of

                              its original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve is

                              Adam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God in

                              that he too comes out from God.



                              Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Woman

                              was with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.

                              =======

                              but you raised it later in a follow-up on the next day (November 3,

                              2007 10:48:42 PM EDT), citing KJV texts.



                              My problem is simply that I joined the list expecting some

                              illuminating discussion of the LXX version of the OT. If that's not

                              what it's going to be, I don't need to stick around.



                              Carl W. Conrad

                              Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)

                              >

                              > Sean

                              >

                              > ----- Original Message ----

                              > From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@artsci. wustl.edu>

                              > To: Lxx@yahoogroups. com

                              > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM

                              > Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?

                              >

                              > Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters

                              >

                              > that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight

                              >

                              > of this forum?

                              >

                              > Carl W. Conrad

                              >

                              > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)

                              >

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                            • Bill Ross
                              Sean, you have inadvertently touched on something I have pondered in regards to the LXX background of a familiar NT discussion. Paul, in Romans 7, seems to be
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                Sean, you have inadvertently touched on something I have pondered in regards
                                to the LXX background of a familiar NT discussion.

                                Paul, in Romans 7, seems to be taking issue with Psalm 1 - though he uses a
                                different word for "delight."

                                Apparently the Greek philosophers believed that it was impossible for a
                                person to act differently from what they believed to be the highest good,
                                and so a philosopher had to engage in reasoning to find the highest good,
                                and this would make them better people. That is, ignorance spawns
                                wickedness, and wisdom spawns good behavior. This is the background of
                                Socrates' "unexamined life" comment.

                                Proverbs seems to also imply that the Torah, if meditated upon, would bring
                                about upright behavior, and thus serve as a veritable "tree of life."

                                Psalm 1, as well, sees the Torah as producing good.

                                But Romans 7 seems to be attacking this idea. For Paul, the Torah
                                (instruction) actually prompts sin, which lives in the muscle tissue:

                                Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my
                                mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my
                                members.

                                The question/issue is... did Paul have Psalm 1 or the proverbs in mind when
                                he objected to the popular philosophical ideas of the time that knowledge of
                                the good produces actions of the good? Or was he just objecting to Socrates,
                                and not the Psalms and Proverbs?

                                Bill Ross
                                http://bibleshockers.com
                                Bible Shockers! A collection of disturbing observations of and about the
                                Bible.



                                --------------------------------------------------
                                From: "Sean Rhoades" <rhoadess@...>
                                Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:10 AM
                                To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?

                                > Dr. Conrad
                                > Well there is more to it underneath the surface, I was reading how
                                > Sirach talked about this female personification of wisdom, and how wisdom
                                > was made in the beginning by God, and then there's Genesis 1:26, 2:22,
                                > 3:21, and 5:1-2 also Proverbs chapter 8. So I wondered if the grammar in
                                > John 1:1 allowed for the view I presented in Sean 1:1. If the grammar
                                > works than perhaps we can view the Word as a kind of heavenly mother.
                                >
                                > Sean
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@...>
                                > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:58:57 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On Nov 30, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Sean Rhoades wrote:
                                >
                                >> Hi Dr. Conrad
                                >
                                >> The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about
                                >
                                >> the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                > That's hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2,
                                >
                                > 2007 11:31:31 PM EDT):
                                >
                                > =====
                                >
                                > Dear Lxx group
                                >
                                > Because many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,
                                >
                                > I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute
                                >
                                > "Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense of
                                >
                                > its original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve is
                                >
                                > Adam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God in
                                >
                                > that he too comes out from God.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Woman
                                >
                                > was with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.
                                >
                                > =======
                                >
                                > but you raised it later in a follow-up on the next day (November 3,
                                >
                                > 2007 10:48:42 PM EDT), citing KJV texts.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > My problem is simply that I joined the list expecting some
                                >
                                > illuminating discussion of the LXX version of the OT. If that's not
                                >
                                > what it's going to be, I don't need to stick around.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Carl W. Conrad
                                >
                                > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> Sean
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> ----- Original Message ----
                                >
                                >> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@artsci. wustl.edu>
                                >
                                >> To: Lxx@yahoogroups. com
                                >
                                >> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM
                                >
                                >> Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> of this forum?
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> Carl W. Conrad
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> <!--
                                >
                                >>
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                              • Matthew Johnson
                                ... This is hermeneutics rather than an LXX topic. And in particular, it requires rather involved hermeneutics to explain why no, Paul does NOT take issue
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 13, 2007
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                                  --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...> wrote:

                                  > Sean, you have inadvertently touched on
                                  > something I have pondered in regards to the LXX
                                  > background of a familiar NT discussion.

                                  This is hermeneutics rather than an LXX topic. And
                                  in particular, it requires rather involved
                                  hermeneutics to explain why no, Paul does NOT
                                  "take issue" with any of the OT approbations of
                                  the Law.

                                  > Paul, in Romans 7, seems to be taking issue with
                                  > Psalm 1 - though he uses a different word for
                                  > "delight."

                                  No. It is not the Psalm itself, nor the Law itself
                                  he takes issue with. Rather, it was to warn
                                  against that interpretation of his previous
                                  argument that he added the cautionary Rom
                                  7:7-8. Rather than blame th eLaw itself for sin,
                                  he d4escribes how sin took "unfair advantage" of
                                  the Law to subvert the very purpose of the
                                  Law. But it is still sin, not the Law, that is
                                  responsible for this subversion.

                                  > Apparently the Greek philosophers believed that
                                  > it was impossible for a person to act
                                  > differently from what they believed to be the
                                  > highest good,

                                  This is too hasty a generalization. Yes,
                                  _Socrates_ believed this, and Plato was still very
                                  much under his 'spell', so never did come up with
                                  an explanation of how evil can persist despite
                                  enlightenment concerning the highest good. But
                                  Aristotle was quite clear that he believed thiw as
                                  a weakness of both Socrates and Plato.

                                  > and so a philosopher had to engage in reasoning
                                  > to find the highest good, and this would make
                                  > them better people. That is, ignorance spawns
                                  > wickedness, and wisdom spawns good
                                  > behavior. This is the background of Socrates'
                                  > "unexamined life" comment.

                                  But Socrates's notion of what 'wisdom' is, and
                                  even of what 'reasoning' is, is not the same as in
                                  the LXX translator's understanding of Proverbs. Why, the notion
                                  differs even between (historical) Socrates and Plato.

                                  > Proverbs seems to also imply that the Torah, if
                                  > meditated upon, would bring about upright
                                  > behavior, and thus serve as a veritable "tree of
                                  > life."

                                  To say that the one is the cause of the other is a
                                  questionable reading of Proverbs. A great deal
                                  more than that is required for "upgright
                                  behavior". It also requires great dedication _to_
                                  that "upgright behavior" and to wisdom, on the
                                  part of the reader: PERIXARAKWSON in Pro 4:8 is
                                  about _hard_ work building a stockade or
                                  besieging. Likewise with WX QESAUROUS EJEREUNHSHiS
                                  in Pro 2:4: we are talking about hard work.

                                  [snip]
                                • Sean Rhoades
                                  Hi Bill, I didn t catch this post, I ll try to keep it within the scope of the LXX. In Sirach 1-2, 4, Wisdom doesn t come to a person immediately, but after
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 15, 2007
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                                    Hi Bill, I didn't catch this post, I'll try to keep it within the scope of the LXX. In Sirach 1-2, 4, Wisdom doesn't come to a person immediately, but after that person has been somewhat proved by her. She puts them through difficult times first, then when she can trust the person, she helps them out in difficult times. So to a person who knows the Law, without deeper study, through reason (Wisdom), it would be difficult to see it as Hillel did, and it would be even more difficult to apply if one only saw the Law as a bunch of rituals and laws which one has to obey. I believe Hillel and Sirach recognized, by reason, that the Law had more to do with love:

                                    "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

                                    Romans 2:13-15 KJV (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

                                    In Romans 2:13-15, Paul may be referring to what Socrates and others came to know, that when a person uses reason, rather than relying on his base desires, only then can he be righteous (see Justin Martyr's the Dialogue with Trypho the Jew). I personally believe Confucius achieved this as well, he found and applied the Law through Reason. It requires thought for one to place himself in his neighbor's shoes, and then self-control to actually apply that Golden rule. In Romans chapter 7, Paul is addressing the Jewish Christians, who knew the Law, but whom likely only looked at it as rituals and rules from God (at least before they became Christians), but in Romans Chapter 8, he goes on to show that through belief in Jesus Messiah (who I believe is this Wisdom, and this Reason, and this Word of God, as is spoken of in the LXX Apocrypha, Proverbs, and Psalms) that Wisdom, comes to one immediately without all the testing and deep study. But just because one
                                    reasons things out, or has Reason, doesn't mean they will actually apply that reason correctly, and so, in order to keep her, one has to apply it through trails of the flesh (avoid those sinful base desires) as is pointed out in the book of James chapter 1, this idea of getting and keeping Wisdom is also pointed out in Sirach Chapters 1,2&4. Sirach also points out that wisdom is given to one in their mother's womb, but how can we know if that applies to us, individually? We don't! We do know what's right and wrong, from the Law, but are we willing to apply it, even in very difficult situations? If we are, and we do it all our lives, then, and only then, can we say we were born with this wisdom. Is that then Grace? By the way, Romans 1:18-32, seems to be a reference to the Wisdom of Solomon chapter 13.


                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Bill Ross <BillRoss@...>
                                    To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 11:25:26 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?

                                    Sean, you have inadvertently touched on something I have pondered in regards
                                    to the LXX background of a familiar NT discussion.

                                    Paul, in Romans 7, seems to be taking issue with Psalm 1 - though he uses a
                                    different word for "delight."

                                    Apparently the Greek philosophers believed that it was impossible for a
                                    person to act differently from what they believed to be the highest good,
                                    and so a philosopher had to engage in reasoning to find the highest good,
                                    and this would make them better people. That is, ignorance spawns
                                    wickedness, and wisdom spawns good behavior. This is the background of
                                    Socrates' "unexamined life" comment.

                                    Proverbs seems to also imply that the Torah, if meditated upon, would bring
                                    about upright behavior, and thus serve as a veritable "tree of life."

                                    Psalm 1, as well, sees the Torah as producing good.

                                    But Romans 7 seems to be attacking this idea. For Paul, the Torah
                                    (instruction) actually prompts sin, which lives in the muscle tissue:

                                    Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my
                                    mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my
                                    members.

                                    The question/issue is... did Paul have Psalm 1 or the proverbs in mind when
                                    he objected to the popular philosophical ideas of the time that knowledge of
                                    the good produces actions of the good? Or was he just objecting to Socrates,
                                    and not the Psalms and Proverbs?

                                    Bill Ross
                                    http://bibleshocker s.com
                                    Bible Shockers! A collection of disturbing observations of and about the
                                    Bible.

                                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --
                                    From: "Sean Rhoades" <rhoadess@yahoo. com>
                                    Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:10 AM
                                    To: <lxx@yahoogroups. com>
                                    Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?

                                    > Dr. Conrad
                                    > Well there is more to it underneath the surface, I was reading how
                                    > Sirach talked about this female personification of wisdom, and how wisdom
                                    > was made in the beginning by God, and then there's Genesis 1:26, 2:22,
                                    > 3:21, and 5:1-2 also Proverbs chapter 8. So I wondered if the grammar in
                                    > John 1:1 allowed for the view I presented in Sean 1:1. If the grammar
                                    > works than perhaps we can view the Word as a kind of heavenly mother.
                                    >
                                    > Sean
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@artsci. wustl.edu>
                                    > To: lxx@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:58:57 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Nov 30, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Sean Rhoades wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> Hi Dr. Conrad
                                    >
                                    >> The reason I started this subject has to do with what is said about
                                    >
                                    >> the Word of God, and Wisdom as found in the book of Sirach.
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    > That's hardly evident from the initial post in the thread (November 2,
                                    >
                                    > 2007 11:31:31 PM EDT):
                                    >
                                    > =====
                                    >
                                    > Dear Lxx group
                                    >
                                    > Because many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,
                                    >
                                    > I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute
                                    >
                                    > "Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense of
                                    >
                                    > its original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve is
                                    >
                                    > Adam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God in
                                    >
                                    > that he too comes out from God.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Woman
                                    >
                                    > was with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.
                                    >
                                    > =======
                                    >
                                    > but you raised it later in a follow-up on the next day (November 3,
                                    >
                                    > 2007 10:48:42 PM EDT), citing KJV texts.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > My problem is simply that I joined the list expecting some
                                    >
                                    > illuminating discussion of the LXX version of the OT. If that's not
                                    >
                                    > what it's going to be, I don't need to stick around.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Carl W. Conrad
                                    >
                                    > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> Sean
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> ----- Original Message ----
                                    >
                                    >> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad@artsci. wustl.edu>
                                    >
                                    >> To: Lxx@yahoogroups. com
                                    >
                                    >> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26:36 PM
                                    >
                                    >> Subject: [lxx] Why NT topics on LXX?
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on matters
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any oversight
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> of this forum?
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> Carl W. Conrad
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> <!--
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    >> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
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                                    >> #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                                    >
                                    >> color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height:
                                    >> 122%;margin:
                                    >
                                    >> 10px 0px;}
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                                    >
                                    >> margin-bottom: 10px;}
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                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean,
                                    >
                                    >> sans-serif;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica,
                                    >
                                    >> clean, sans-serif;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-text{
                                    >
                                    >> font-family: Georgia;
                                    >
                                    >> }
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-text p{
                                    >
                                    >> margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                                    >
                                    >> font-family: Arial;
                                    >
                                    >> clear:both;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vitnav{
                                    >
                                    >> padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size: 77%;margin: 0;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vitnav a{
                                    >
                                    >> padding:0 1px;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-actbar{
                                    >
                                    >> clear:both;margin: 25px 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text-
                                    >
                                    >> align:right; }
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-actbar .left{
                                    >
                                    >> float:left;white- space:nowrap; }
                                    >
                                    >> .bld{font-weight: bold;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-grft{
                                    >
                                    >> font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-ft{
                                    >
                                    >> font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px solid #666;
                                    >
                                    >> padding:5px 0;
                                    >
                                    >> }
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                                    >
                                    >> padding-bottom: 10px;}
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vital{
                                    >
                                    >> background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                                    >
                                    >> font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333; text-
                                    >
                                    >> transform:uppercase ;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vital ul{
                                    >
                                    >> padding:0;margin: 2px 0;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vital ul li{
                                    >
                                    >> list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
                                    >
                                    >> }
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                                    >
                                    >> font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text-
                                    >
                                    >> align:right; padding-right: .5em;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                                    >
                                    >> font-weight: bold;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vital a{
                                    >
                                    >> text-decoration: none;}
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                                    >
                                    >> text-decoration: underline; }
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                                    >
                                    >> color:#999;font- size:77%; }
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                                    >
                                    >> padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                                    >
                                    >> padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                                    >
                                    >> list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                                    >
                                    >> text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                                    >
                                    >> background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                                    >
                                    >> padding:8px 0;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                                    >
                                    >> font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size:
                                    >> 100%;line-
                                    >
                                    >> height:122%; }
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                                    >
                                    >> text-decoration: none;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                                    >
                                    >> text-decoration: underline; }
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                                    >
                                    >> margin:0;}
                                    >
                                    >> o{font-size: 0;}
                                    >
                                    >> .MsoNormal{
                                    >
                                    >> margin:0 0 0 0;}
                                    >
                                    >> #ygrp-text tt{
                                    >
                                    >> font-size:120% ;}
                                    >
                                    >> blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
                                    >
                                    >> .replbq{margin: 4;}
                                    >
                                    >> -->
                                    >
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <!--
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-mkp{
                                    > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px 0px;padding: 0px
                                    > 14px;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp hr{
                                    > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                                    > color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px
                                    > 0px;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp #ads{
                                    > margin-bottom: 10px;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp .ad{
                                    > padding:0 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
                                    > color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}
                                    > -->
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <!--
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
                                    > font-family: Arial;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
                                    > margin:10px 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
                                    > margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}
                                    > -->
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <!--
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean,
                                    > sans-serif;}
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean,
                                    > sans-serif;}
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}
                                    > #ygrp-text{
                                    > font-family: Georgia;
                                    > }
                                    > #ygrp-text p{
                                    > margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                                    > font-family: Arial;
                                    > clear:both;}
                                    > #ygrp-vitnav{
                                    > padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size: 77%;margin: 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-vitnav a{
                                    > padding:0 1px;}
                                    > #ygrp-actbar{
                                    > clear:both;margin: 25px 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text- align:right; }
                                    > #ygrp-actbar .left{
                                    > float:left;white- space:nowrap; }
                                    > .bld{font-weight: bold;}
                                    > #ygrp-grft{
                                    > font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-ft{
                                    > font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px solid #666;
                                    > padding:5px 0;
                                    > }
                                    > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                                    > padding-bottom: 10px;}
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-vital{
                                    > background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                                    > #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                                    > font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333; text-transform: uppercase; }
                                    > #ygrp-vital ul{
                                    > padding:0;margin: 2px 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-vital ul li{
                                    > list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
                                    > }
                                    > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                                    > font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text- align:right; padding-right: .5em;}
                                    > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                                    > font-weight: bold;}
                                    > #ygrp-vital a{
                                    > text-decoration: none;}
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                                    > text-decoration: underline; }
                                    >
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                                    > color:#999;font- size:77%; }
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                                    > padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                                    > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                                    > list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                                    > text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                                    > background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                                    > padding:8px 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                                    > font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size: 100%;line- height:122% ;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                                    > text-decoration: none;}
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                                    > text-decoration: underline; }
                                    > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                                    > margin:0;}
                                    > o{font-size: 0;}
                                    > .MsoNormal{
                                    > margin:0 0 0 0;}
                                    > #ygrp-text tt{
                                    > font-size:120% ;}
                                    > blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
                                    > .replbq{margin: 4;}
                                    > -->
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • finckean
                                    Dear Chris and Carl, If we assume that In the beginning was the word... has some relevance to the Christmas story, then we might ponder an analogous tale in
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 29, 2007
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                                      Dear Chris and Carl,

                                      If we assume that "In the beginning was the word..." has some relevance
                                      to the Christmas story, then we might ponder an analogous tale in the
                                      Septuagint: the birth of Samuel, that was likewise marked by wonder
                                      (barren virgin? giving birth). The only difference is that after the
                                      birth Hannah declined to accompany her husband to Shiloh to make the
                                      offering (1 Sam 2:22), while Mary and Joseph scooted right off on New
                                      Year's eve ("8 days after the birth" Luke 2:21-22) to visit the temple.
                                      Elkana didn't mind Hannah's refusal to go and - in fact - said: "Do what
                                      you want! ... As long as the Lord stands His word!" That's the Hebrew,
                                      and what the Lord's word is isn't clear. The Septuagint improves the
                                      sentence to "May the Lord stand everything going forth from your
                                      mouth!", which apparently refers to the pre-conception vow Hannah made
                                      about Samuel being a Nazirite (1:11). But that vow was alot more than
                                      ONE WORD, so apparently what Elkana meant was "May the Lord stand what
                                      went forth from your womb!" - that is, the baby Samuel, who was still to
                                      fragile to make the trip. But how do we get from "His word" to "what
                                      went forth from your mouth" to "what went forth from your womb"? If you
                                      take εξελθον "going forth" and parse it to its first-person
                                      root, you get εξερχομαι, which is phonetically similar to
                                      εκ ρημα "from word" (cf. ρχμαι to ρημα).
                                      But in Hebrew ρχμα is RECHMA "her womb", so that "word" merges
                                      with "womb" and what went forth from "her mouth" with what went forth
                                      from "her womb". (Cf. also ρη with PE "mouth" in Hebrew!) This
                                      ρημα grew into a λογος by the time of the Luke story,
                                      that is into an entity sufficiently mature to make the trip to
                                      Jerusalem. See Luke 2:36: "And Hannah was a prophetess advanced in
                                      days".

                                      Andrew Fincke
                                      --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:54 PM, Chris Weimer wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > The New Testament makes use of the Septuagint. As long as the
                                      > > questions are directly relevant to the LXX, I personally see no
                                      harm.
                                      > > Within reason, no?
                                      > >
                                      > I've no problem with that; where the text of the LXX can illuminate
                                      > questions raised in a NT text, that's fine -- but the lengthy thread
                                      on
                                      > John 1:1 seemed to me to have a very tenuous or tangential
                                      > relationship to the LXX at best and to be sustained not by light
                                      > thrown by the LXX on questions about the LOGOS, but by the
                                      > never-ending fascination with the text of John 1:1 itself.
                                      > >
                                      > > Chris Weimer
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Carl W. Conrad" cwconrad@ wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Why is so much of the discussion on this LXX list focused on
                                      matters
                                      > > > that relate to the GNT and not to the LXX? Isn't there any
                                      oversight
                                      > > > of this forum?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Carl W. Conrad
                                      > > > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Carl W. Conrad
                                      > Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
                                      >
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