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Re: Possible Junk E-Mail Re: [lxx] Re: John 1:1

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  • Bill Ross
    Paul, you are quite correct that the phrase EN ARCH would have been tantamount to saying to his readers: Ladies and gentlemen, if you have your LXX with you,
    Message 1 of 2 , Nov 3, 2007
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      Paul, you are quite correct that the phrase EN ARCH would have been
      tantamount to saying to his readers:

      "Ladies and gentlemen, if you have your LXX with you, please turn with me to
      page 1..."

      And indeed, there we DO find divine utterance:

      Ge 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
      Ge 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters,
      and let it divide the waters from the waters.
      Ge 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together
      unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
      Ge 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding
      seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in
      itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
      Ge 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to
      divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons,
      and for days, and years:
      Ge 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving
      creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open
      firmament of heaven.
      Ge 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after
      his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind:
      and it was so.
      Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and
      let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
      air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping
      thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and
      multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the
      fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing
      that moveth upon the earth.
      Ge 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed,
      which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the
      fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
      Ge 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone;
      I will make him an help meet for him.

      Note that the LOGOS (utterance) was there in the beginning, with God, and
      that it was divine utterance. And all things were made through it [not
      "him"]. Without it was not anything made that was made...

      Bill Ross
      http://bibleshockers.com
      Bible Shockers! A collection of disturbing observations of and about the
      Bible.


      --------------------------------------------------
      From: "Paul Vincent Dolan" <pavindol@...>
      Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 9:34 AM
      To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "Elisabeth Dolan" <dolans1@...>; "Kirk D Dolan"
      <dolan_kirk@...>
      Subject: Possible Junk E-Mail Re: [lxx] Re: John 1:1

      > Hello All,
      >
      > John 1:1 says in the original Greek:
      >
      > en arch hn o logoV, kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon, kai qeoV hn o logoV.
      >
      > I guess that we first need some kind of
      > grammatical/translational/syntactical and theological examination.
      >
      > en -- In
      > arch -- (the) beginning
      > hn -- was (imperfect tense)
      > o logoV, -- the Word
      > kai -- and
      > o logoV -- the Word
      > hn -- was (imperfect tense)
      > proV -- with, near, to or towards
      > ton qeon, -- the God
      > kai -- and
      > qeoV -- God
      > hn -- was (imperfect tense)
      > o logoV. -- the Word
      >
      > Some wordings of the Greek are:
      >
      > kai o logoV hn qeoV .
      >
      > But this doesn't change the meaning of the sentence.
      > -----------------------------------------------------
      >
      > en arch -- En arche -- In (the) beginning: Greek is a very precise
      > language. It has 24 different ways of expressing the definite article;
      > "the" in English. The absence of the definite article in the phrase, "In
      > beginning," is significant since it does not denote any specific
      > beginning. Just "beginning," indicating eternity.
      >
      > hn -- ain, ane -- was -- imperfect tense. This indicates a continuous
      > action, in this case it indicates continuous existence, with no specific
      > start.
      >
      > o logoV -- Ho Logos -- the Word: As from the wording previous in the
      > sentence, the context and intent of this is that, "The Word has had a
      > continuous existence with no specific beginning."
      >
      > kai -- kai -- and
      >
      > o logoV -- The Word (see explanation above)
      >
      > hn -- ain, ane -- was (see explanation above)
      >
      > proV -- pros -- with, to, towards, near, around
      >
      > ton qeon -- ton Theon -- the God (note the definite article ton (ton --
      > the) as modifying qeon.
      >
      > kai qeoV -- kai Theos -- and God (note the absence of the definite
      > article)
      >
      > hn -- ain, ane -- was (note explanation above)
      >
      > o logoV -- ho Logos -- the Word.
      >
      > My thoughts:
      >
      > There are only two books of the Bible which begin with, "In the
      > beginning..." They are Genesis (1:1) and the Gospel of John (1:1).
      > From the writings of St. John (his Gospel, three Epistles and
      > Revelation), it has been determined that St. John the Evangelist mastered
      > the Greek (Koine) language of his day, with its idiomatic phrases and
      > linguistic nuances. When he wrote these books of the New Testament, he
      > used this language with specific and targeted meanings in many cases.
      >
      > There are several of these specifics found just in the opening line of
      > his Gospel. With the first words, "In the beginning," is the obvious
      > reference back to Genesis, and creation, especially with the following
      > which said, "God created..." Now we have John saying ,"was the Word."
      > With the use of the imperfect form of the verb "to be" -- hn -- and the
      > absence of any definite article, this indicates that the Word existed
      > before creation with no specific beginning.
      >
      > This is followed by the phrase, "and the Word was with (to, towards,
      > with, around) the God. Now the specific use of the definite article --
      > ton -- the -- in reference to God is highly significant. -- ton qeon --
      > in this case refers directly to God as the Jewish People understood as God
      > was in the entirety of His existence, power, majesty etc., as well as His
      > eternal presence which pre-existed all of creation.
      >
      > The first verse of this first chapter ends with:
      >
      > kai qeoV hn o logoV.
      > or, in some renditons
      > kai o logoV hn qeoV.
      >
      > The wording has no change on its intent. Either one means, "and the Word
      > was God." The significance of this phrase is the absence of the definite
      > article immediately preceding the word -- qeos -- "God." From the Greek,
      > the unequivocal meaning that St. John is conveying is this: There is a
      > separate Person other than the God as understood by the Jewish People.
      > This other (Second) Person has been referred to as a separate Person by
      > the designation The Word. His existence is the same as God's existence,
      > (the God as understood by the Jewish People of the day), and that this
      > Second Person was also God, having all of the Divine attributes that God
      > the Father has.
      >
      > I fail to see how an substitution of any of these words with Adam or Eve,
      > even grammatically, would make sense out of the whole meaning of the
      > sentence, since it would radically change its meaning and intent. This
      > doesn't even touch on the theological ramifications of any such
      > substitutions.
      >
      > Thank you very much and may God bless you abundantly and prosper the
      > works of your hands.
      >
      > Paul V. Dolan
      > pavindol@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Chris Weimer <Christopher.M.Weimer@...> wrote:
      > (sorry about the weird first post)
      >
      > Not if you accept the second θεοÏ, (theos) as an adjective (i.e.,
      > the word was divine), like some Greek nouns are able to do (cf.
      > αθεοÏ, atheos - without god, an adjective).
      >
      > If you accept the argument that the second θεοÏ, (theos) is a
      > noun (i.e., the word was God), then I guess grammatically it makes
      > sense. One noun for another.
      >
      > You might also run into trouble with Ï?ροÏ, (pros), though there
      > was always some contention about how John was using it.
      >
      > And that's merely the linguistic side. I would argue vehemently against
      > the idea that John is making the λογοÏ, (logos) Eve and
      > θεοÏ, (God) Adam, although I do not doubt some commentator
      > somewhere has tried to make the connexion.
      >
      > All the best,
      >
      > Chris Weimer
      > U. Memphis
      >
      > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Sean" <rhoadess@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Dear Lxx group
      >> Because many of you are scholars and know the Greek language well,
      >> I was just looking at John 1:1 and wondering if I could substitute
      >> "Word" with "Woman" and "God" with "Adam", and get the same sense of
      >> its original meaning, at least grammatically. That is, that Eve is
      >> Adam, in that she comes out from Adam, and so the Word can be God in
      >> that he too comes out from God.
      >>
      >> Sean 1:1 In the beginning of Mankind, was the Woman, and the Woman
      >> was with Adam, and the Woman was Adam.
      >>
      >> Genesis 5:1-2 KJV This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the
      >> day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male
      >> and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name
      >> Adam, in the day when they were created.
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > "...it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians."
      > (Acts 11:26)
      > http://www.antiochian.org
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • Tony Costa
      Bill, you stated : Note that the LOGOS (utterance) was there in the beginning, with God, and that it was divine utterance. And all things were made through it
      Message 2 of 2 , Nov 3, 2007
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        Bill, you stated :


        "Note that the LOGOS (utterance) was there in the beginning, with God, and
        that it was divine utterance. And all things were made through it [not
        "him"]. Without it was not anything made that was made..."



        LOGOS is a nominative masculine singular noun and thus the personal pronoun
        AUTOU is a masculine genitive singular which accords with its antecedent
        noun. Thus we have all things were made through "him", not "it" as you
        suggest. The neuter is not used here which would have called for the use of
        "it".



        On another note, I am wondering if we are getting off topic here dealing
        with the New Testament when this is a LXX group list?



        Tony Costa





        _____

        From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill
        Ross
        Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 11:01 AM
        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: Possible Junk E-Mail Re: [lxx] Re: John 1:1



        Paul, you are quite correct that the phrase EN ARCH would have been
        tantamount to saying to his readers:

        "Ladies and gentlemen, if you have your LXX with you, please turn with me to

        page 1..."


        Bill Ross
        http://bibleshocker <http://bibleshockers.com> s.com
        Bible Shockers! A collection of disturbing observations of and about the
        Bible.






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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