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Re: Esaias

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  • S Peterson
    Peter, I am familiar, as are we all, with Vaticanus. I don t know what you mean by the big Catena in XVI prophetas, though. Do you mean XII Prophetas? If so,
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 1, 2007
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      Peter,
      I am familiar, as are we all, with Vaticanus. I don't know what you
      mean by the "big Catena in XVI prophetas," though. Do you mean XII
      Prophetas? If so, where do you locate the "big Catena?"

      --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
      >
      > In a hope to return this group to its proper focus, I have recently
      tranlated the following text from the Apostoliki Diakonia text of
      Esaias with alternate readings attached. I would like any textual
      comment if any wish to give it.
      >
      >
      __________________________________________________________________________

      > * Codex Vaticanus and the big Catena in XVI prophetas read: �the hand�.
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Lets get back on track people.
      >
      > Peter A. Papoutsis
      >

      AMEN doesn't need as much textual work or translation as other Hebrew
      words!

      All the best,
      Sigrid Peterson
      petersig@...
    • S Peterson
      When we log in to Yahoo groups and go to the latest posts of the current discussion, I believe we always find an interesting paragraph of introduction that,
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 1, 2007
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        When we log in to Yahoo groups and go to the latest posts of the current discussion, I believe we always find an interesting paragraph of introduction that, among other things, says that this list is for serious scholars working in fields that deal with the Septuagint.

        And if those scholars irk some of us with nonsense and off-topic replies, we may have email-processing software that allows us to block them by name. Or they may have the courtesy to mark their material as "off-topic."

        It is difficult to find any really official statement of the purpose or content of the list. By definition, in the category "Links" off to the left of your page when you log in to Yahoo Groups, in the second link of three, is Joel Kalvesmaki's "List Home Page." It is actually a web site,

        http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/

        The page is instructive. The very last sentence of Joel Kalvesmaki's web site reads as follows:

        If you are a graduate student or established scholar in LXX studies, you may want to join the discussion list, which facilitates exchange of ideas and questions on topics related directly or indirectly to Septuagintal studies.
        The bold-face type is my idea. 

        Bearing one's testimony about how the NT changes the way we interpret the Old Greek  or Hebrew does not have a place here. That is because we want to know, back before any issues of interpretation, what does the text actually say in its original language.  In the words of a colleague who moderates another list that often deals with similar issues, "We do history here."

        We don't do interpretation, or meaning for modern life.  Many of us who qualify for the list take those issues as seriously as the textual issues, in other areas of our lives. For  that reason, creative attempts to tease meaning out of the Hebrew and Greek texts we have available by "strangifying" it,  are also a challenge, and a little goes a long way.

        It generally helps to be able to answer the question "How do we know this?"

        Sigrid Peterson
        petersig@...




      • Peter Papoutsis
        Its a site to a LXX codex in Rahlf s Septuagint on the last page of his English introduction, page LXV in my edition with the symbol C for that codex. Peter A.
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 1, 2007
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          Its a site to a LXX codex in Rahlf's Septuagint on the last page of his English introduction, page LXV in my edition with the symbol for that codex.
           
          Peter A. Papoutsis
           
          This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: S Peterson <petersig@...>
          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2007 4:13:10 AM
          Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias

          Peter,
          I am familiar, as are we all, with Vaticanus. I don't know what you
          mean by the "big Catena in XVI prophetas," though. Do you mean XII
          Prophetas? If so, where do you locate the "big Catena?"

          --- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > In a hope to return this group to its proper focus, I have recently
          tranlated the following text from the Apostoliki Diakonia text of
          Esaias with alternate readings attached. I would like any textual
          comment if any wish to give it.
          >
          >
          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

          > * Codex Vaticanus and the big Catena in XVI prophetas read: &#65533;the hand&#65533; .
          >
          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          >
          > Lets get back on track people.
          >
          > Peter A. Papoutsis
          >

          AMEN doesn't need as much textual work or translation as other Hebrew
          words!

          All the best,
          Sigrid Peterson
          petersig@ccat. sas.upenn. edu




          Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
        • finckean
          Dear Peter, At verse 3 MT and 1QIsa-a have sons for pains . At verse 4 IQIsa- a adds in this city at the end. Also IQIsa-a agrees with LXX in making the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 1, 2007
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            Dear Peter,
            At verse 3 MT and 1QIsa-a have "sons" for "pains". At verse 4 IQIsa-
            a adds "in this city" at the end. Also IQIsa-a agrees with LXX in
            making the "remnant" plural, MT has "the remant found" for
            LXX "these remnants". IQIsa-a has "the remnant (sing.) found
            (plural)". From "that you heard" in verse 6 up to the end of verse 7
            is an interlinear insertion in 1QIsa-a. At verses 8 and 9, MT and
            1QIsa-a have: "And Ravsheka returned and found the king of Assyria
            fighting on Livna, because he heard that he travelled from Lachish.
            And he heard about Tharheka, king of Kush, saying, 'He went forth to
            fight with you'. And he heard and sent messengers to Hezekiah
            saying". I don't get your translation of verse 8. LXX has "And he
            captured besieging king Lomanan", which needs exoplanation.
            Andrew Fincke
            --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
            >
            > In a hope to return this group to its proper focus, I have recently
            tranlated the following text from the Apostoliki Diakonia text of
            Esaias with alternate readings attached. I would like any textual
            comment if any wish to give it.
            >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            ____
            >
            > Chapter 37
            >
            > And it came to be, when King Ezekias heard it, that he rent his
            clothes, and put sackcloth about him, and went up into the house of
            the Lord.
            > 2 And he sent * Eliakim the steward, and Somnas the scribe, and the
            elders of the priests clothed with sackcloth, to Esaias the son of
            Amos, the prophet, 3 and they said to him, Thus says Ezekias, This is
            a day of affliction, and reproach, and rebuke, and anger, this very
            day, because the pangs have come upon the woman giving birth, but she
            does not have strength to give birth. 4 May the Lord thy God hear the
            words of * Rapsakou, which the King of the Assyrians * has sent, to
            reproach the living God, even to reproach with the words which the
            Lord thy God has heard; therefore thou will pray to * the Lord thy
            God concerning these that are left.
            > 5 And the servants of King Ezekias came to Esaias, 6 and Esaias
            said to them, Thus will ye say to your lord, Thus saith the Lord, Do
            not be afraid at the words which thou have heard, with which the
            ambassadors of the King of the Assyrians have reproached Me, 7
            Behold, I will put a spirit in him, and he will hear a report, and
            return to his own land, and he will fall by the sword in his own land.
            > 8 And * Rapsakis returned, and found the King of the Assyrians
            besieging * Lomnan. * And the King of the Assyrians had heard that 9
            Tharaka the King of the Ethopians had gone forth to besiege him. And
            when he heard this, he turned back, and sent messengers to Ezekian,
            saying, 10 Thus shall ye say to Ezekia the King of Judea, Do not let
            thy God, in whom thou trust, deceive thee by saying, Jerusalem will
            not be delivered into * the hands of the King of the Assyrians.
            >
            > * Codex Alexandrinus adds: �him�.
            >
            > * Codex Vaticanus and Lucian�s LXX recension for verse four reads
            �Ravaskou� and verse eight read �Ravsakis�.
            >
            > * Lucian�s LXX recension and the big Catena in XVI prophetas read:
            �his lord�.
            >
            > * Codex Vaticanus reads: �thy Lord�.
            >
            > * Codex Vaticanus Marchalianus reads: �lomna�; Codex Vaticanus,
            Lucian�s LXX recension and the big Catena in XVI prophetas read:
            �Lovnan�.
            >
            > * Codex Vaticanus reads: ��because he had heard that he had left
            from Lahis. 9 And Tharaka the King of the Ethiopians went forth to
            besiege him�.
            >
            > * Codex Vaticanus and the big Catena in XVI prophetas read: �the
            hand�.
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            ______
            >
            > Lets get back on track people.
            >
            > Peter A. Papoutsis
            >
            > This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information
            intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the
            addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee
            or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee,
            then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this
            e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,
            please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender,
            and delete the original message from your system.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            ______________
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            > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
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          • finckean
            Dear Peter, Vaticanus has: 8 And Rapsakis returned and found the King of the Assyrians besieging Lobnan. And he heard that he left Lachish. 9 And Tharaka,
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 1, 2007
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              Dear Peter,
              Vaticanus has: "8 And Rapsakis returned and found the King of the
              Assyrians besieging Lobnan. And he heard that he left Lachish. 9 And
              Tharaka, the King of the Ethopians" etc. L (Lucian) has: "8 And
              Rapsakis returned and found the King of the Assyrians besieging
              Lobnan. And he heard that he left Lachish. 9 And the king of the
              Assyrians heard that Tharaka, the King of the Ethopians" etc. After
              that "And he heard and returned and sent" is exactly thus in IQIsa-a,
              but in MT lacks "and returned".
              Andrew Fincke
              --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
              >
              >>
              ______________________________________________________________________
              ____
              >
              > Chapter 37
              >
              > 8 And * Rapsakis returned, and found the King of the Assyrians
              besieging * Lomnan. * And the King of the Assyrians had heard that 9
              Tharaka the King of the Ethopians had gone forth to besiege him. And
              when he heard this, he turned back, and sent messengers to Ezekian,
              saying,
              > * Codex Vaticanus reads: "…because he had heard that he had left
              from Lahis. 9 And Tharaka the King of the Ethiopians went forth to
              besiege him".
            • Peter Papoutsis
              I don t follow what you mean my translation of verse 8? There are two readings of verse 8 one is followed by the Apostoliki Diakonia text, the other is found
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 1, 2007
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                I don't follow what you mean my translation of verse 8? There are two readings of verse 8 one is followed by the Apostoliki Diakonia text, the other is found in Codex Vadicanus. I give both renderings. If I have missed something please let me know.
                 
                Peter A. Papoutsis
                 
                This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


                ----- Original Message ----
                From: finckean <finckea@...>
                To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2007 1:54:40 PM
                Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias

                Dear Peter,
                At verse 3 MT and 1QIsa-a have "sons" for "pains". At verse 4 IQIsa-
                a adds "in this city" at the end. Also IQIsa-a agrees with LXX in
                making the "remnant" plural, MT has "the remant found" for
                LXX "these remnants". IQIsa-a has "the remnant (sing.) found
                (plural)". From "that you heard" in verse 6 up to the end of verse 7
                is an interlinear insertion in 1QIsa-a. At verses 8 and 9, MT and
                1QIsa-a have: "And Ravsheka returned and found the king of Assyria
                fighting on Livna, because he heard that he travelled from Lachish.
                And he heard about Tharheka, king of Kush, saying, 'He went forth to
                fight with you'. And he heard and sent messengers to Hezekiah
                saying". I don't get your translation of verse 8. LXX has "And he
                captured besieging king Lomanan", which needs exoplanation.
                Andrew Fincke
                --- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:

                >
                > In a hope to return this group to its proper focus, I have recently
                tranlated the following text from the Apostoliki Diakonia text of
                Esaias with alternate readings attached. I would like any textual
                comment if any wish to give it.
                >
                >
                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                ____
                >
                > Chapter 37
                >
                > And it came to be, when King Ezekias heard it, that he rent his
                clothes, and put sackcloth about him, and went up into the house of
                the Lord.
                > 2 And he sent * Eliakim the steward, and Somnas the scribe, and the
                elders of the priests clothed with sackcloth, to Esaias the son of
                Amos, the prophet, 3 and they said to him, Thus says Ezekias, This is
                a day of affliction, and reproach, and rebuke, and anger, this very
                day, because the pangs have come upon the woman giving birth, but she
                does not have strength to give birth. 4 May the Lord thy God hear the
                words of * Rapsakou, which the King of the Assyrians * has sent, to
                reproach the living God, even to reproach with the words which the
                Lord thy God has heard; therefore thou will pray to * the Lord thy
                God concerning these that are left.
                > 5 And the servants of King Ezekias came to Esaias, 6 and Esaias
                said to them, Thus will ye say to your lord, Thus saith the Lord, Do
                not be afraid at the words which thou have heard, with which the
                ambassadors of the King of the Assyrians have reproached Me, 7
                Behold, I will put a spirit in him, and he will hear a report, and
                return to his own land, and he will fall by the sword in his own land.
                > 8 And * Rapsakis returned, and found the King of the Assyrians
                besieging * Lomnan. * And the King of the Assyrians had heard that 9
                Tharaka the King of the Ethopians had gone forth to besiege him. And
                when he heard this, he turned back, and sent messengers to Ezekian,
                saying, 10 Thus shall ye say to Ezekia the King of Judea, Do not let
                thy God, in whom thou trust, deceive thee by saying, Jerusalem will
                not be delivered into * the hands of the King of the Assyrians.
                >
                > * Codex Alexandrinus adds: �him�.
                >
                > * Codex Vaticanus and Lucian�s LXX recension for verse four reads
                �Ravaskou� and verse eight read �Ravsakis�.
                >
                > * Lucian�s LXX recension and the big Catena in XVI prophetas read:
                �his lord�.
                >
                > * Codex Vaticanus reads: �thy Lord�.
                >
                > * Codex Vaticanus Marchalianus reads: �lomna�; Codex Vaticanus,
                Lucian�s LXX recension and the big Catena in XVI prophetas read:
                �Lovnan�.
                >
                > * Codex Vaticanus reads: ��because he had heard that he had left
                from Lahis. 9 And Tharaka the King of the Ethiopians went forth to
                besiege him�.
                >
                > * Codex Vaticanus
                and the big Catena in XVI prophetas read: �the
                hand�.
                >
                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                ______
                >
                > Lets get back on track people.
                >
                > Peter A. Papoutsis
                >
                > This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information
                intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the
                addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee
                or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee,
                then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this
                e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,
                please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender,
                and delete the original message from your system.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                ____________ __
                > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                > http://searchmarket ing.yahoo. com/
                >




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              • finckean
                Dear Peter, I already answered your question in the next message. I was rushed and didn t read over your work carefully and later reexamined the variants from
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 2, 2007
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                  Dear Peter,
                  I already answered your question in the next message. I was rushed and
                  didn't read over your work carefully and later reexamined the variants
                  from my edition of Rahlfs. Here's something else. 1QIsa-b frag. 11 has
                  a bit of the text, but it - if my reconstruction is right - is
                  masoretic (= Hebrew) at verse 9: "[ki]ng[ of Ethiopia saying, 'He went
                  forth to fight with you'. And he heard and sent messengers to
                  Hezekiah] saying". What's inside the brackets is reconstructed from
                  lines 1 and 2 of the fragment. After that is a big deletion at the
                  beginning of verse 10: "Thus you will say to Hezekiah, king of Judah,
                  saying". Sukenik's reconstruction (1955) of the fragment is all wet.
                  We're still waiting for a good, workable edition of the photos, which
                  Flint and Ulrich are taking their time on.
                  Andrew Fincke
                  In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't follow what you mean
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