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Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant

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  • Bill Ross
    Would it be inappropriate for me to say Kudos to you guys? You are the most focused list on the net! Bill Ross
    Message 1 of 29 , May 17, 2007
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      Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
      most focused list on the net!

      Bill Ross
    • andrew fincke
      Dear Bill, Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It s A fire will eat you not you will eat fire . LXX with iskus strong apparently meant ish kush an
      Message 2 of 29 , May 18, 2007
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        Dear Bill,
        Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not "you will
        eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an Ethiopian
        man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my words
        will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been fun back
        then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
        Andrew Fincke


        >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
        >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
        >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
        >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
        >
        >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
        >most focused list on the net!
        >
        >Bill Ross
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
        Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You�ll love Windows Live
        Hotmail.
        http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
      • Robert Kraft
        Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the heterogeneous collection of LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate --
        Message 3 of 29 , May 18, 2007
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          Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the heterogeneous collection of
          LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate -- SABAWQ is the best and most
          frequent example, but there are several others (search for "{t}" in the CATSS Parallel Text
          materials -- although everything is not marked yet, especially after ch. 40 --
          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par ).

          As has often been pointed out, the translator or translators also resorted to the DOC- (doks-)
          root for difficult passages. Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see the variety.

          It was also a tendency of "Aquila" (or that "school") to find Greek equivalents that had
          similar sounds to the Hebrew being rendered. Possibly hermeneutical moves towards "literalism"
          in some parts of Judaism from early times were already at work in the translation of Isaiah. In
          any event, the ISXUS of 33.11 might indeed be the product of some of these tendencies. The
          Greek variant UBRIS ("Antiochene/Lucianic" witnesses) is an interesting attempt to make better
          sense of the passage, as are the efforts of "Aquila, and Theodotion," who engage birth imagery
          (presumably refelcting the Hebrew TLDW).

          So the Greek Isaiah is fascinating, and as far as translation procedures are concerned, out of
          line with most of the other Greek translations of which we know. Wonder who made it, where and
          when?

          Bob Kraft, UPenn

          >
          > Dear Bill,
          > Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not "you will
          > eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an Ethiopian
          > man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my words
          > will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been fun back
          > then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
          > Andrew Fincke
          >
          >
          > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
          > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
          > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
          > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
          > >
          > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
          > >most focused list on the net!
          > >
          > >Bill Ross
          > >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You�ll love Windows Live
          > Hotmail.
          > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >



          --
          Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
          227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
          kraft@...
          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
        • andrew fincke
          Dear Bob, You say Do a search for DOC and you will quickly see the variety . Do you have any quick tips for searching? I m a novice, and the link in your
          Message 4 of 29 , May 19, 2007
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            Dear Bob,
            You say "Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see the variety". Do
            you have any quick tips for searching? I'm a novice, and the link in your
            message wasn't searchable.
            Andrew Fincke

            >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
            >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah as a Translation
            >Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:37:46 -0400 (EDT)
            >
            >Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the
            >heterogeneous collection of
            >LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate -- SABAWQ is
            >the best and most
            >frequent example, but there are several others (search for "{t}" in the
            >CATSS Parallel Text
            >materials -- although everything is not marked yet, especially after ch. 40
            >--
            >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par
            >).
            >
            >As has often been pointed out, the translator or translators also resorted
            >to the DOC- (doks-)
            >root for difficult passages. Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see
            >the variety.
            >
            >It was also a tendency of "Aquila" (or that "school") to find Greek
            >equivalents that had
            >similar sounds to the Hebrew being rendered. Possibly hermeneutical moves
            >towards "literalism"
            >in some parts of Judaism from early times were already at work in the
            >translation of Isaiah. In
            >any event, the ISXUS of 33.11 might indeed be the product of some of these
            >tendencies. The
            >Greek variant UBRIS ("Antiochene/Lucianic" witnesses) is an interesting
            >attempt to make better
            >sense of the passage, as are the efforts of "Aquila, and Theodotion," who
            >engage birth imagery
            >(presumably refelcting the Hebrew TLDW).
            >
            >So the Greek Isaiah is fascinating, and as far as translation procedures
            >are concerned, out of
            >line with most of the other Greek translations of which we know. Wonder who
            >made it, where and
            >when?
            >
            >Bob Kraft, UPenn
            >
            > >
            > > Dear Bill,
            > > Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not "you
            >will
            > > eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an
            >Ethiopian
            > > man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my
            >words
            > > will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been fun
            >back
            > > then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
            > > Andrew Fincke
            > >
            > >
            > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
            > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
            > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
            > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
            > > >
            > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are
            >the
            > > >most focused list on the net!
            > > >
            > > >Bill Ross
            > > >
            > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You���ll love Windows Live
            > > Hotmail.
            > >
            >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >--
            >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
            >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
            >kraft@...
            >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
            Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
            It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
          • Robert Kraft
            I guess that it may depend on one s computer system (I m in Windows) and browser (I use FireFox or Netscape). But for what it s worth, here is the procedure
            Message 5 of 29 , May 20, 2007
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              I guess that it may depend on one's computer system (I'm in Windows) and
              browser (I use FireFox or Netscape). But for what it's worth, here is the
              procedure I'd use:

              (1) Access the desired file --
              http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par

              (2) Use the "find" or "search" feature (for me, in FireFox, CONTROL + F
              works, or from the "Edit" menu "Find in this page"; in Netscape similarly
              -- also specify "match case" and put DOC in caps)

              (3) This should find the occurrence in Isa 4.2, and repeating the find
              command will walk you through the file, identifying each occurrence. For
              more efficiency, particular forms (e.g. E)/NDOCOS ) can be located through
              the same procedures.

              (4) Interpreting the Hebrew column on the left may sometimes be a
              challenge if there is not obvious and direct correlation. Emanuel Tov and
              his students prepared the ParTxt files, and included conjectural
              retroversions (noted in parentheses) and other features as seemed
              appropriate to them. An updated version of these materials has been
              prepared by Frank Polak, in consultation with Emanuel Tov, but has not yet
              been loaded onto the CATSS site.

              Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS

              > Dear Bob,
              > You say "Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see the variety". Do
              > you have any quick tips for searching? I'm a novice, and the link in your
              > message wasn't searchable.
              > Andrew Fincke
              >
              > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
              > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah as a Translation
              > >Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:37:46 -0400 (EDT)
              > >
              > >Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the
              > >heterogeneous collection of
              > >LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate -- SABAWQ is
              > >the best and most
              > >frequent example, but there are several others (search for "{t}" in the
              > >CATSS Parallel Text
              > >materials -- although everything is not marked yet, especially after ch. 40
              > >--
              > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par
              > >).
              > >
              > >As has often been pointed out, the translator or translators also resorted
              > >to the DOC- (doks-)
              > >root for difficult passages. Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see
              > >the variety.
              > >
              > >It was also a tendency of "Aquila" (or that "school") to find Greek
              > >equivalents that had
              > >similar sounds to the Hebrew being rendered. Possibly hermeneutical moves
              > >towards "literalism"
              > >in some parts of Judaism from early times were already at work in the
              > >translation of Isaiah. In
              > >any event, the ISXUS of 33.11 might indeed be the product of some of these
              > >tendencies. The
              > >Greek variant UBRIS ("Antiochene/Lucianic" witnesses) is an interesting
              > >attempt to make better
              > >sense of the passage, as are the efforts of "Aquila, and Theodotion," who
              > >engage birth imagery
              > >(presumably refelcting the Hebrew TLDW).
              > >
              > >So the Greek Isaiah is fascinating, and as far as translation procedures
              > >are concerned, out of
              > >line with most of the other Greek translations of which we know. Wonder who
              > >made it, where and
              > >when?
              > >
              > >Bob Kraft, UPenn
              > >
              > > >
              > > > Dear Bill,
              > > > Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not "you
              > >will
              > > > eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an
              > >Ethiopian
              > > > man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my
              > >words
              > > > will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been fun
              > >back
              > > > then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
              > > > Andrew Fincke
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
              > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
              > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
              > > > >
              > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are
              > >the
              > > > >most focused list on the net!
              > > > >
              > > > >Bill Ross
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > > _________________________________________________________________
              > > > Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You���ll love Windows Live
              > > > Hotmail.
              > > >
              > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >--
              > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
              > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
              > >kraft@...
              > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
              > It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
              227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
              kraft@...
              http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
            • andrew fincke
              Thanks. CONTROL+F works for me. Andrew Fincke ... _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more
              Message 6 of 29 , May 20, 2007
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                Thanks. CONTROL+F works for me.
                Andrew Fincke


                >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah as a Translation
                >Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:02:21 -0400 (EDT)
                >
                >I guess that it may depend on one's computer system (I'm in Windows) and
                >browser (I use FireFox or Netscape). But for what it's worth, here is the
                >procedure I'd use:
                >
                >(1) Access the desired file --
                >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par
                >
                >(2) Use the "find" or "search" feature (for me, in FireFox, CONTROL + F
                >works, or from the "Edit" menu "Find in this page"; in Netscape similarly
                >-- also specify "match case" and put DOC in caps)
                >
                >(3) This should find the occurrence in Isa 4.2, and repeating the find
                >command will walk you through the file, identifying each occurrence. For
                >more efficiency, particular forms (e.g. E)/NDOCOS ) can be located through
                >the same procedures.
                >
                >(4) Interpreting the Hebrew column on the left may sometimes be a
                >challenge if there is not obvious and direct correlation. Emanuel Tov and
                >his students prepared the ParTxt files, and included conjectural
                >retroversions (noted in parentheses) and other features as seemed
                >appropriate to them. An updated version of these materials has been
                >prepared by Frank Polak, in consultation with Emanuel Tov, but has not yet
                >been loaded onto the CATSS site.
                >
                >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                >
                > > Dear Bob,
                > > You say "Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see the variety".
                >Do
                > > you have any quick tips for searching? I'm a novice, and the link in
                >your
                > > message wasn't searchable.
                > > Andrew Fincke
                > >
                > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah as a Translation
                > > >Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:37:46 -0400 (EDT)
                > > >
                > > >Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the
                > > >heterogeneous collection of
                > > >LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate -- SABAWQ
                >is
                > > >the best and most
                > > >frequent example, but there are several others (search for "{t}" in the
                > > >CATSS Parallel Text
                > > >materials -- although everything is not marked yet, especially after
                >ch. 40
                > > >--
                > >
                > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par
                > > >).
                > > >
                > > >As has often been pointed out, the translator or translators also
                >resorted
                > > >to the DOC- (doks-)
                > > >root for difficult passages. Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly
                >see
                > > >the variety.
                > > >
                > > >It was also a tendency of "Aquila" (or that "school") to find Greek
                > > >equivalents that had
                > > >similar sounds to the Hebrew being rendered. Possibly hermeneutical
                >moves
                > > >towards "literalism"
                > > >in some parts of Judaism from early times were already at work in the
                > > >translation of Isaiah. In
                > > >any event, the ISXUS of 33.11 might indeed be the product of some of
                >these
                > > >tendencies. The
                > > >Greek variant UBRIS ("Antiochene/Lucianic" witnesses) is an interesting
                > > >attempt to make better
                > > >sense of the passage, as are the efforts of "Aquila, and Theodotion,"
                >who
                > > >engage birth imagery
                > > >(presumably refelcting the Hebrew TLDW).
                > > >
                > > >So the Greek Isaiah is fascinating, and as far as translation
                >procedures
                > > >are concerned, out of
                > > >line with most of the other Greek translations of which we know. Wonder
                >who
                > > >made it, where and
                > > >when?
                > > >
                > > >Bob Kraft, UPenn
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Dear Bill,
                > > > > Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not
                >"you
                > > >will
                > > > > eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an
                > > >Ethiopian
                > > > > man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my
                > > >words
                > > > > will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been
                >fun
                > > >back
                > > > > then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
                > > > > Andrew Fincke
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You
                >are
                > > >the
                > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Bill Ross
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                > > > > Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You���ll love Windows
                >Live
                > > > > Hotmail.
                > > > >
                > >
                > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >--
                > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                > > >kraft@...
                > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > _________________________________________________________________
                > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
                > > It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >--
                >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                >kraft@...
                >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >

                _________________________________________________________________
                More photos, more messages, more storage�get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
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              • andrew fincke
                But, Bob, why don t you just use BibleWorks? Andrew Fincke ... _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download
                Message 7 of 29 , May 21, 2007
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                  But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                  Andrew Fincke


                  >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                  >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                  >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                  >
                  >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
                  >most focused list on the net!
                  >
                  >Bill Ross
                  >

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
                  It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                • Robert Kraft
                  Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it supports, I might. But with these two observations: (1) For the casual user (which would
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 21, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it supports, I might. But
                    with these two observations:
                    (1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this list?), it is costly;
                    (2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which for other interested
                    users are freely available.

                    Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems such as the Isaiah issues
                    we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs (Accordance, Logos,
                    etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not have such packages
                    readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which are used by the
                    aforementioned programs.

                    Bob

                    >
                    > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                    > Andrew Fincke
                    >
                    >
                    > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                    > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                    > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                    > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                    > >
                    > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
                    > >most focused list on the net!
                    > >
                    > >Bill Ross
                    > >
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________________________
                    > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
                    > It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                    227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                    kraft@...
                    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                  • andrew fincke
                    Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose one volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater of Theodore
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 22, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose one
                      volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater of
                      Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune off the
                      Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He spent all
                      his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all? Stop the
                      press on the Festschrift!
                      Andrew Fincke

                      >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                      >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                      >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                      >
                      >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it
                      >supports, I might. But
                      >with these two observations:
                      >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this
                      >list?), it is costly;
                      >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which for
                      >other interested
                      >users are freely available.
                      >
                      >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems such as
                      >the Isaiah issues
                      >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs
                      >(Accordance, Logos,
                      >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not have
                      >such packages
                      >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which are
                      >used by the
                      >aforementioned programs.
                      >
                      >Bob
                      >
                      > >
                      > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                      > > Andrew Fincke
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                      > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                      > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                      > > >
                      > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are
                      >the
                      > > >most focused list on the net!
                      > > >
                      > > >Bill Ross
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > _________________________________________________________________
                      > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m Initiative
                      >now.
                      > > It���s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >--
                      >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                      >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                      >kraft@...
                      >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
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                    • Robert Kraft
                      Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn t mean to imply that I couldn t afford BibleWorks; I probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 22, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I couldn't afford BibleWorks; I
                        probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the contract!). But yes, for
                        what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on manuscript variants,
                        and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary distributors" to incorporate
                        into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy, Psalms, and Minor Prophets,
                        but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research focus these days is the
                        papyri collections at UPenn.

                        I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn. Nowadays I spend my "spare"
                        time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.

                        Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it was easier to involve
                        them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its wisdom required that all
                        grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded, which restricted them to
                        summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff goes entirely to pay them
                        and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a yacht.

                        There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving digital images and
                        descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an actual book, and a genuine
                        surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to help finish the LXX/OG
                        variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.

                        So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and emendations can have a place in
                        the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they generate will serve to
                        keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!

                        Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)

                        > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose one
                        > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater of
                        > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune off the
                        > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He spent all
                        > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all? Stop the
                        > press on the Festschrift!
                        > Andrew Fincke
                        >
                        > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                        > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                        > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                        > >
                        > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it
                        > >supports, I might. But
                        > >with these two observations:
                        > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this
                        > >list?), it is costly;
                        > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which for
                        > >other interested
                        > >users are freely available.
                        > >
                        > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems such as
                        > >the Isaiah issues
                        > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs
                        > >(Accordance, Logos,
                        > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not have
                        > >such packages
                        > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which are
                        > >used by the
                        > >aforementioned programs.
                        > >
                        > >Bob
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                        > > > Andrew Fincke
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                        > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                        > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                        > > > >
                        > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are
                        > >the
                        > > > >most focused list on the net!
                        > > > >
                        > > > >Bill Ross
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > _________________________________________________________________
                        > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m Initiative
                        > >now.
                        > > > It���s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >--
                        > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                        > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                        > >kraft@...
                        > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > Catch suspicious messages before you open them�with Windows Live Hotmail.
                        > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                        227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                        kraft@...
                        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                      • andrew fincke
                        Yeh, I m trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text of Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are hashing out,
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 22, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text of
                          Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are
                          hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a concordance
                          done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a BibleWorks
                          forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that means
                          the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the Fernandez
                          Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be scanned
                          in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                          Andrew Fincke


                          >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                          >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                          >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                          >
                          >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I couldn't
                          >afford BibleWorks; I
                          >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                          >contract!). But yes, for
                          >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on
                          >manuscript variants,
                          >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                          >distributors" to incorporate
                          >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy, Psalms,
                          >and Minor Prophets,
                          >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research focus
                          >these days is the
                          >papyri collections at UPenn.
                          >
                          >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn. Nowadays I
                          >spend my "spare"
                          >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.
                          >
                          >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it was
                          >easier to involve
                          >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its wisdom
                          >required that all
                          >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded, which
                          >restricted them to
                          >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff goes
                          >entirely to pay them
                          >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a yacht.
                          >
                          >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving
                          >digital images and
                          >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an actual
                          >book, and a genuine
                          >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to help
                          >finish the LXX/OG
                          >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                          >
                          >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and emendations
                          >can have a place in
                          >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they
                          >generate will serve to
                          >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                          >
                          >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                          >
                          > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose
                          >one
                          > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater
                          >of
                          > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune off
                          >the
                          > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He spent
                          >all
                          > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all? Stop
                          >the
                          > > press on the Festschrift!
                          > > Andrew Fincke
                          > >
                          > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                          > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                          > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                          > > >
                          > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it
                          > > >supports, I might. But
                          > > >with these two observations:
                          > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this
                          > > >list?), it is costly;
                          > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which
                          >for
                          > > >other interested
                          > > >users are freely available.
                          > > >
                          > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems
                          >such as
                          > > >the Isaiah issues
                          > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs
                          > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                          > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not
                          >have
                          > > >such packages
                          > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which
                          >are
                          > > >used by the
                          > > >aforementioned programs.
                          > > >
                          > > >Bob
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                          > > > > Andrew Fincke
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                          > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                          > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You
                          >are
                          > > >the
                          > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >Bill Ross
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m
                          >Initiative
                          > > >now.
                          > > > > It���s free.
                          >http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >--
                          > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                          > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                          > > >kraft@...
                          > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > Catch suspicious messages before you open them�with Windows Live
                          >Hotmail.
                          > >
                          >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >--
                          >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                          >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                          >kraft@...
                          >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          _________________________________________________________________
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                        • Robert Kraft
                          You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor s encoding of 1-2 Samuel (1-2 Reigns) -- Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 22, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor's encoding of 1-2 Samuel (1-2 Reigns) --
                            Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:

                            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/09-1Sam-Kgs.html
                            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/10-2Sam-Kgs.html

                            Virginia Wayland is working on 1-2 Kings (3-4 Reigns), all published variants -- chapter by
                            chapter (we still need to put the files together for easier searching):

                            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/11-1Kings01.html
                            [etc.]

                            The Samuel-Kings material is a textual quagmire, so having it available in a format that can be
                            manipulated in various ways (e.g. recreating a specific MS, or searching for tendencies within
                            the preserved witnesses) should prove productive in various ways, as it gets used.

                            Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS

                            >
                            > Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text of
                            > Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are
                            > hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a concordance
                            > done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a BibleWorks
                            > forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that means
                            > the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the Fernandez
                            > Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be scanned
                            > in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                            > Andrew Fincke
                            >
                            >
                            > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                            > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                            > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                            > >
                            > >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I couldn't
                            > >afford BibleWorks; I
                            > >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                            > >contract!). But yes, for
                            > >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on
                            > >manuscript variants,
                            > >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                            > >distributors" to incorporate
                            > >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy, Psalms,
                            > >and Minor Prophets,
                            > >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research focus
                            > >these days is the
                            > >papyri collections at UPenn.
                            > >
                            > >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn. Nowadays I
                            > >spend my "spare"
                            > >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.
                            > >
                            > >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it was
                            > >easier to involve
                            > >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its wisdom
                            > >required that all
                            > >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded, which
                            > >restricted them to
                            > >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff goes
                            > >entirely to pay them
                            > >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a yacht.
                            > >
                            > >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving
                            > >digital images and
                            > >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an actual
                            > >book, and a genuine
                            > >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to help
                            > >finish the LXX/OG
                            > >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                            > >
                            > >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and emendations
                            > >can have a place in
                            > >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they
                            > >generate will serve to
                            > >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                            > >
                            > >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                            > >
                            > > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose
                            > >one
                            > > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater
                            > >of
                            > > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune off
                            > >the
                            > > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He spent
                            > >all
                            > > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all? Stop
                            > >the
                            > > > press on the Festschrift!
                            > > > Andrew Fincke
                            > > >
                            > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                            > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                            > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it
                            > > > >supports, I might. But
                            > > > >with these two observations:
                            > > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this
                            > > > >list?), it is costly;
                            > > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which
                            > >for
                            > > > >other interested
                            > > > >users are freely available.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems
                            > >such as
                            > > > >the Isaiah issues
                            > > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs
                            > > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                            > > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not
                            > >have
                            > > > >such packages
                            > > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which
                            > >are
                            > > > >used by the
                            > > > >aforementioned programs.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Bob
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                            > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                            > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                            > > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You
                            > >are
                            > > > >the
                            > > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >Bill Ross
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                            > > > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m
                            > >Initiative
                            > > > >now.
                            > > > > > It���s free.
                            > >http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >--
                            > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                            > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                            > > > >kraft@...
                            > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > _________________________________________________________________
                            > > > Catch suspicious messages before you open them�with Windows Live
                            > >Hotmail.
                            > > >
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                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >--
                            > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                            > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                            > >kraft@...
                            > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > More photos, more messages, more storage�get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
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                            >



                            --
                            Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                            227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                            kraft@...
                            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                          • andrew fincke
                            That s not an Antiochian text only but rather a Brooke-McLean text with the variants added. Fernandez Marcos - as I understand it - starts and ends with
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 23, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              That's not an "Antiochian text only" but rather a Brooke-McLean text with
                              the variants added. Fernandez Marcos - as I understand it - starts and ends
                              with Antiochan. So that in BibleWorks I - not you since you never opened
                              the package - could have Vaticanus on top of Lucianic for comaparison, were
                              the Fernandez Marcos books encoded.
                              Andrew Fincke


                              >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                              >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [lxx] LXX/OG Variants [was BibleWorks ...]
                              >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:17:24 -0400 (EDT)
                              >
                              >You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor's encoding of 1-2 Samuel
                              >(1-2 Reigns) --
                              >Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:
                              >
                              >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/09-1Sam-Kgs.html
                              >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/10-2Sam-Kgs.html
                              >
                              >Virginia Wayland is working on 1-2 Kings (3-4 Reigns), all published
                              >variants -- chapter by
                              >chapter (we still need to put the files together for easier searching):
                              >
                              >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/11-1Kings01.html
                              >[etc.]
                              >
                              >The Samuel-Kings material is a textual quagmire, so having it available in
                              >a format that can be
                              >manipulated in various ways (e.g. recreating a specific MS, or searching
                              >for tendencies within
                              >the preserved witnesses) should prove productive in various ways, as it
                              >gets used.
                              >
                              >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text
                              >of
                              > > Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are
                              > > hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a
                              >concordance
                              > > done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a
                              >BibleWorks
                              > > forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that
                              >means
                              > > the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the
                              >Fernandez
                              > > Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be
                              >scanned
                              > > in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                              > > Andrew Fincke
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                              > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                              > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                              > > >
                              > > >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I
                              >couldn't
                              > > >afford BibleWorks; I
                              > > >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                              > > >contract!). But yes, for
                              > > >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on
                              > > >manuscript variants,
                              > > >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                              > > >distributors" to incorporate
                              > > >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy,
                              >Psalms,
                              > > >and Minor Prophets,
                              > > >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research
                              >focus
                              > > >these days is the
                              > > >papyri collections at UPenn.
                              > > >
                              > > >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn.
                              >Nowadays I
                              > > >spend my "spare"
                              > > >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.
                              > > >
                              > > >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it
                              >was
                              > > >easier to involve
                              > > >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its
                              >wisdom
                              > > >required that all
                              > > >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded,
                              >which
                              > > >restricted them to
                              > > >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff
                              >goes
                              > > >entirely to pay them
                              > > >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a
                              >yacht.
                              > > >
                              > > >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving
                              > > >digital images and
                              > > >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an
                              >actual
                              > > >book, and a genuine
                              > > >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to
                              >help
                              > > >finish the LXX/OG
                              > > >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                              > > >
                              > > >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and
                              >emendations
                              > > >can have a place in
                              > > >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they
                              > > >generate will serve to
                              > > >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                              > > >
                              > > >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                              > > >
                              > > > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint,
                              >whose
                              > > >one
                              > > > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the
                              >Doktorvater
                              > > >of
                              > > > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune
                              >off
                              > > >the
                              > > > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He
                              >spent
                              > > >all
                              > > > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all?
                              >Stop
                              > > >the
                              > > > > press on the Festschrift!
                              > > > > Andrew Fincke
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                              > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                              > > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research
                              >it
                              > > > > >supports, I might. But
                              > > > > >with these two observations:
                              > > > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on
                              >this
                              > > > > >list?), it is costly;
                              > > > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and
                              >which
                              > > >for
                              > > > > >other interested
                              > > > > >users are freely available.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems
                              > > >such as
                              > > > > >the Isaiah issues
                              > > > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar
                              >programs
                              > > > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                              > > > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do
                              >not
                              > > >have
                              > > > > >such packages
                              > > > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files,
                              >which
                              > > >are
                              > > > > >used by the
                              > > > > >aforementioned programs.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >Bob
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                              > > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                              > > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                              > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys?
                              >You
                              > > >are
                              > > > > >the
                              > > > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >Bill Ross
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              >_________________________________________________________________
                              > > > > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m
                              > > >Initiative
                              > > > > >now.
                              > > > > > > It���s free.
                              > > >http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >--
                              > > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                              > > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                              > > > > >kraft@...
                              > > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                              > > > > Catch suspicious messages before you open them���with Windows Live
                              > > >Hotmail.
                              > > > >
                              > >
                              > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >--
                              > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                              > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                              > > >kraft@...
                              > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > _________________________________________________________________
                              > > More photos, more messages, more storage���get 2GB with Windows Live
                              >Hotmail.
                              > >
                              >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >--
                              >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                              >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                              >kraft@...
                              >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >

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                            • Robert Kraft
                              Correct. I meant that Bernard Taylor had encoded only the supposed Antiochian variants (boc2e2), against the base text of B (Vaticanus) as presented in
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 23, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Correct. I meant that Bernard Taylor had encoded only the supposed Antiochian variants
                                (boc2e2), against the base text of B (Vaticanus) as presented in Brooke-McLean. Sorry for any
                                disclarity. This sounds like what you envision, although I suspect that Fernandez Marcos has
                                gone beyond merely the preserved variants to produce his text. But I don't know. I'm only
                                lurking.

                                Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS


                                > That's not an "Antiochian text only" but rather a Brooke-McLean text with
                                > the variants added. Fernandez Marcos - as I understand it - starts and ends
                                > with Antiochan. So that in BibleWorks I - not you since you never opened
                                > the package - could have Vaticanus on top of Lucianic for comaparison, were
                                > the Fernandez Marcos books encoded.
                                > Andrew Fincke
                                >
                                >
                                > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                > >Subject: Re: [lxx] LXX/OG Variants [was BibleWorks ...]
                                > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:17:24 -0400 (EDT)
                                > >
                                > >You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor's encoding of 1-2 Samuel
                                > >(1-2 Reigns) --
                                > >Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:
                                > >
                                > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/09-1Sam-Kgs.html
                                > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/10-2Sam-Kgs.html
                                > >
                                > >Virginia Wayland is working on 1-2 Kings (3-4 Reigns), all published
                                > >variants -- chapter by
                                > >chapter (we still need to put the files together for easier searching):
                                > >
                                > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/11-1Kings01.html
                                > >[etc.]
                                > >
                                > >The Samuel-Kings material is a textual quagmire, so having it available in
                                > >a format that can be
                                > >manipulated in various ways (e.g. recreating a specific MS, or searching
                                > >for tendencies within
                                > >the preserved witnesses) should prove productive in various ways, as it
                                > >gets used.
                                > >
                                > >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text
                                > >of
                                > > > Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are
                                > > > hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a
                                > >concordance
                                > > > done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a
                                > >BibleWorks
                                > > > forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that
                                > >means
                                > > > the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the
                                > >Fernandez
                                > > > Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be
                                > >scanned
                                > > > in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                                > > > Andrew Fincke
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I
                                > >couldn't
                                > > > >afford BibleWorks; I
                                > > > >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                                > > > >contract!). But yes, for
                                > > > >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on
                                > > > >manuscript variants,
                                > > > >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                                > > > >distributors" to incorporate
                                > > > >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy,
                                > >Psalms,
                                > > > >and Minor Prophets,
                                > > > >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research
                                > >focus
                                > > > >these days is the
                                > > > >papyri collections at UPenn.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn.
                                > >Nowadays I
                                > > > >spend my "spare"
                                > > > >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it
                                > >was
                                > > > >easier to involve
                                > > > >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its
                                > >wisdom
                                > > > >required that all
                                > > > >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded,
                                > >which
                                > > > >restricted them to
                                > > > >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff
                                > >goes
                                > > > >entirely to pay them
                                > > > >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a
                                > >yacht.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving
                                > > > >digital images and
                                > > > >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an
                                > >actual
                                > > > >book, and a genuine
                                > > > >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to
                                > >help
                                > > > >finish the LXX/OG
                                > > > >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and
                                > >emendations
                                > > > >can have a place in
                                > > > >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they
                                > > > >generate will serve to
                                > > > >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint,
                                > >whose
                                > > > >one
                                > > > > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the
                                > >Doktorvater
                                > > > >of
                                > > > > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune
                                > >off
                                > > > >the
                                > > > > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He
                                > >spent
                                > > > >all
                                > > > > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all?
                                > >Stop
                                > > > >the
                                > > > > > press on the Festschrift!
                                > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                > > > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research
                                > >it
                                > > > > > >supports, I might. But
                                > > > > > >with these two observations:
                                > > > > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on
                                > >this
                                > > > > > >list?), it is costly;
                                > > > > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and
                                > >which
                                > > > >for
                                > > > > > >other interested
                                > > > > > >users are freely available.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems
                                > > > >such as
                                > > > > > >the Isaiah issues
                                > > > > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar
                                > >programs
                                > > > > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                                > > > > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do
                                > >not
                                > > > >have
                                > > > > > >such packages
                                > > > > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files,
                                > >which
                                > > > >are
                                > > > > > >used by the
                                > > > > > >aforementioned programs.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >Bob
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                > > > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                > > > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                > > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys?
                                > >You
                                > > > >are
                                > > > > > >the
                                > > > > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >Bill Ross
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > >_________________________________________________________________
                                > > > > > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m
                                > > > >Initiative
                                > > > > > >now.
                                > > > > > > > It���s free.
                                > > > >http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >--
                                > > > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                > > > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                > > > > > >kraft@...
                                > > > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
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                                > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                > > > >kraft@...
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                                > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
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                                --
                                Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                kraft@...
                                http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                              • andrew fincke
                                Now you ve lost me. If Taylor has a text of Lucianic 1 Samuel - see his The Lucianic Manuscripts of 1 Reigns, 1992 - then why doesn t he give it over to
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 23, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Now you've lost me. If Taylor has a text of Lucianic 1 Samuel - see his The
                                  Lucianic Manuscripts of 1 Reigns, 1992 - then why doesn't he give it over to
                                  BibleWorks for inclusion with their multitudinous Bible translations? Or is
                                  it the fault of BibleWorks - Lucianic too specialized, not complete Bible,
                                  etc.? But then why is Natalio hiring a team and investing twenty years in
                                  getting the Antiochan text in print plus concordance? Somewhere the
                                  communication has broken down.
                                  Andrew Fincke


                                  >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                  >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: Re: [lxx] LXX/OG Variants [was BibleWorks ...]
                                  >Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:08:34 -0400 (EDT)
                                  >
                                  >Correct. I meant that Bernard Taylor had encoded only the supposed
                                  >Antiochian variants
                                  >(boc2e2), against the base text of B (Vaticanus) as presented in
                                  >Brooke-McLean. Sorry for any
                                  >disclarity. This sounds like what you envision, although I suspect that
                                  >Fernandez Marcos has
                                  >gone beyond merely the preserved variants to produce his text. But I don't
                                  >know. I'm only
                                  >lurking.
                                  >
                                  >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > That's not an "Antiochian text only" but rather a Brooke-McLean text
                                  >with
                                  > > the variants added. Fernandez Marcos - as I understand it - starts and
                                  >ends
                                  > > with Antiochan. So that in BibleWorks I - not you since you never
                                  >opened
                                  > > the package - could have Vaticanus on top of Lucianic for comaparison,
                                  >were
                                  > > the Fernandez Marcos books encoded.
                                  > > Andrew Fincke
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                  > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] LXX/OG Variants [was BibleWorks ...]
                                  > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:17:24 -0400 (EDT)
                                  > > >
                                  > > >You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor's encoding of 1-2
                                  >Samuel
                                  > > >(1-2 Reigns) --
                                  > > >Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/09-1Sam-Kgs.html
                                  > >
                                  > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/10-2Sam-Kgs.html
                                  > > >
                                  > > >Virginia Wayland is working on 1-2 Kings (3-4 Reigns), all published
                                  > > >variants -- chapter by
                                  > > >chapter (we still need to put the files together for easier searching):
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/11-1Kings01.html
                                  > > >[etc.]
                                  > > >
                                  > > >The Samuel-Kings material is a textual quagmire, so having it available
                                  >in
                                  > > >a format that can be
                                  > > >manipulated in various ways (e.g. recreating a specific MS, or
                                  >searching
                                  > > >for tendencies within
                                  > > >the preserved witnesses) should prove productive in various ways, as it
                                  > > >gets used.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic
                                  >text
                                  > > >of
                                  > > > > Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now
                                  >are
                                  > > > > hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a
                                  > > >concordance
                                  > > > > done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a
                                  > > >BibleWorks
                                  > > > > forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that
                                  > > >means
                                  > > > > the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the
                                  > > >Fernandez
                                  > > > > Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be
                                  > > >scanned
                                  > > > > in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                                  > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                  > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                  > > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I
                                  > > >couldn't
                                  > > > > >afford BibleWorks; I
                                  > > > > >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                                  > > > > >contract!). But yes, for
                                  > > > > >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research
                                  >is on
                                  > > > > >manuscript variants,
                                  > > > > >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                                  > > > > >distributors" to incorporate
                                  > > > > >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy,
                                  > > >Psalms,
                                  > > > > >and Minor Prophets,
                                  > > > > >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research
                                  > > >focus
                                  > > > > >these days is the
                                  > > > > >papyri collections at UPenn.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn.
                                  > > >Nowadays I
                                  > > > > >spend my "spare"
                                  > > > > >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City
                                  >NJ.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions!
                                  >Unfortunately, it
                                  > > >was
                                  > > > > >easier to involve
                                  > > > > >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its
                                  > > >wisdom
                                  > > > > >required that all
                                  > > > > >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully
                                  >funded,
                                  > > >which
                                  > > > > >restricted them to
                                  > > > > >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff
                                  > > >goes
                                  > > > > >entirely to pay them
                                  > > > > >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a
                                  > > >yacht.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first
                                  >involving
                                  > > > > >digital images and
                                  > > > > >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an
                                  > > >actual
                                  > > > > >book, and a genuine
                                  > > > > >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together
                                  >to
                                  > > >help
                                  > > > > >finish the LXX/OG
                                  > > > > >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and
                                  > > >emendations
                                  > > > > >can have a place in
                                  > > > > >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards
                                  >they
                                  > > > > >generate will serve to
                                  > > > > >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized
                                  >Septuagint,
                                  > > >whose
                                  > > > > >one
                                  > > > > > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the
                                  > > >Doktorvater
                                  > > > > >of
                                  > > > > > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a
                                  >fortune
                                  > > >off
                                  > > > > >the
                                  > > > > > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say?
                                  >He
                                  > > >spent
                                  > > > > >all
                                  > > > > > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all?
                                  > > >Stop
                                  > > > > >the
                                  > > > > > > press on the Festschrift!
                                  > > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                  > > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                  > > > > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of
                                  >research
                                  > > >it
                                  > > > > > > >supports, I might. But
                                  > > > > > > >with these two observations:
                                  > > > > > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others
                                  >on
                                  > > >this
                                  > > > > > > >list?), it is costly;
                                  > > > > > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand,
                                  >and
                                  > > >which
                                  > > > > >for
                                  > > > > > > >other interested
                                  > > > > > > >users are freely available.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple
                                  >problems
                                  > > > > >such as
                                  > > > > > > >the Isaiah issues
                                  > > > > > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar
                                  > > >programs
                                  > > > > > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                                  > > > > > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who
                                  >do
                                  > > >not
                                  > > > > >have
                                  > > > > > > >such packages
                                  > > > > > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT
                                  >files,
                                  > > >which
                                  > > > > >are
                                  > > > > > > >used by the
                                  > > > > > > >aforementioned programs.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >Bob
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                  > > > > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                  > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                  > > > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you
                                  >guys?
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                                  > > > > > > >the
                                  > > > > > > > > >most focused list on the net!
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                                  > > > > > > > > >Bill Ross
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
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                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >--
                                  > > > > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                  > > > > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                  > > > > > > >kraft@...
                                  > > > > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
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                                  > > > > >--
                                  > > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                  > > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                  > > > > >kraft@...
                                  > > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                  > > > > >
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                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > _________________________________________________________________
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                                  > > >
                                  > > >--
                                  > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                  > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                  > > >kraft@...
                                  > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
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                                  > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                  > > _________________________________________________________________
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                                  >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                  >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
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                                  >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
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